your pc as a sound module(live application)

[DarkHorse]

who knows these stuff?...i wud like to learn in too..hehe..ynx mga sirs!

[chuck sabbath]

you will need:

-a pc (laptop for portability) with powerful cpu and lots of memory
-software synths or samplers
-low latency soundcard/audio interface
-keyboard controller

[paparazzi]

I basically have one setup. Pretty easy to do.

Signal path:

1) Axiom MIDI Keyboard connected to Apple Macbook via USB.
2) Second keyboard connected to Axiom via MIDI cable
3) External sound card connected to Macbook via USB
4) External sound card connected to amp or mixer via instrument cable (PL or XLR)

NI Kontakt 2 and Reason for sound modules

[DarkHorse]

ok tnx..how powerful is the recomended cpu for almost seamless performance on live apps? and is a 512mb ddram enough?

[VinceP]

512Mb works.  But frouned upon sometimes, going with 1Gb would be your best bet.

[marvinq]

PC's for live performance -- I've tried it a few times already. Although nothing really went wrong, I'm still not sure if I wanna use my laptop (T7400 w/ 2gb RAM) in a gig on a regular basis. Too many things can go wrong -- memory or hard drive failure, software or hardware bugs, etc.. I'd dread to see that happen on a crucial part of the show. I've stopped acquiring hardware synths ever since I got my xv3080... but lately I've been getting new stuff (some of them 2nd hand) to upgrade my live stuff -- a Motif Rack, a Triton Extreme and a Fantom XR. Then I sold the XV.

If you really need to use a PC, I'd say for the time being, try not to use disk streaming. At least you're eliminating one variable, one thing that might fail in the middle of a gig. Use reason, or if you have to stream from the hard disk, use a large buffer or preload size, to minimize as much streaming as you can. In other words, try to get your RAM to at least 2GB, so you can load a lot of samples.

As for me, i'll load my samples either on the Triton Extreme (96MB) or the Fantom XR (528MB). When I need more, I'll pass on the gig to somebody who has more... haha.

[Boddhisattva]

... but lately I've been getting new stuff (some of them 2nd hand) to upgrade my live stuff -- a Motif Rack, a Triton Extreme and a Fantom XR. Then I sold the XV.

A Yamaha, Korg and Roland... wala nang hahanapin pa (maybe except some exotic analog stuff)!

Haven't tried using a pc set-up live. Tried it at home but I had problems with latency.

[marvinq]

yeah. that's the thing. getting your pc to the lowest latency possible, but keeping it stable seems to be the main issue here.

...got the triton extreme and the fantom xr for a really good price...

[KitC]

Nothing beats hardware synths and modules for stability. In live concert situations, most pc's are used offstage and the systems are DUPLICATED right down to the hardware, software and audio interface; even UPS are duplicated (if you don't believe me, try to track down articles by Mike McKnight in Keyboard magazine during the Madonna and Mariah Carey tours). These pc's are synced and configured in such a way that when one fails, the other will cut in seamlessly.

The problem with pc's and laptops is that you have to specifically configure them for audio use. Stability is increased by removing unneeded programs and drivers. Security is increased by not connecting to a network or  the internet. Even antivirus programs that reside in memory can have a hit on cpu cycles.

If you are only doing midi, 512 megs of ram is sufficient but if you are highly sample based, 2 gigs is the norm. Marvin is right about disk streaming, you need a fairly fast HD to ensure that samples are delivered when you need them; 4200 rpm disks are a no-no.

[marvinq]

@kit - took my cue from mike mcknight's articles too... when i start using a laptop for my live gigs, that only means i have a duplicate setup somewhere nearby... either that or i'm suicidal... haha

until such time, hardware is king...

[KitC]

Well, there is such a thing as the MuseResearch Receptor



It can run vsts and fx in realtime. It's basically a rackmount pc with built-in converters and midi interface and an OS dedicated for running vsts only. It can be run as is, but you can attach a monitor, mouse and qwerty keyboard if you like.

[marvinq]

...or if you have more money, and you think modules are so unsexy, try the neko, either with core 2 duos or dual core xeons.

[paparazzi]

I run a Core 2 Duo setup with 2GB RAM and samples are in a external firewire HDD. No probles with latency at all.

Each to his own.

[KitC]

Depending on the type of program that will be used live, the computer specs will vary greatly. Midi/audio playback is as simple as it gets with vsts and samplers imposing greater loads on the computer. Latency is actually a function of the audio interface and its drivers. It doesn't matter if one is using a mac or a pc, the same safeguards should apply when using a computer live such as ensuring data and hardware integrity, and having sufficient backup in case of failure. Often, having a lean and mean setup ensures the least amount of probables that can go wrong. I guess the most sage advice I can offer when using a pc live is: YMMV and have a backup.

[abyssinianson]

i've used my laptop live with ableton before in conjunction with hardware and kit is right, you really do have to streamline your computer for audio otherwise many things can go wrong in the middle of a show. I am still very old school in that i will not put everything I have going in a set just on a laptop, maybe the foundation of the tracks I will be playing but not enough to bog the thing down when I layer sounds and beats live. As great as Ableton is at live remixing, you are still relying on CPU power to pull off sounds without a hardware synth module to play the parts on stage. Besides, I still like tweaking the odd knobs on synths and bashing out beats on an 808 and 909 piped through a Sherman Filterbank.

[marvinq]

I think I've read somewhere that BT gigs with a laptop, but has his entire show backed up on audio, just in case something goes wrong with the computer...

that's the thing... A SOLID BACKUP PLAN needs to be always in place...

...something you need not worry about (most of the time, at least) as far as hardware keyboards and modules are concerned.... well, unless somebody pours beer on your keyboard.... but since that's less likely to happen than a hardware failure on your computer, insurance is less relevant.

[KitC]

I think I've read somewhere that BT gigs with a laptop, but has his entire show backed up on audio, just in case something goes wrong with the computer...

that's the thing... A SOLID BACKUP PLAN needs to be always in place...

hehe... my kumpare and I have our entire set in a small mp3 player, ready at a moment's notice. 

[abyssinianson]

I think I've read somewhere that BT gigs with a laptop, but has his entire show backed up on audio, just in case something goes wrong with the computer...

that's the thing... A SOLID BACKUP PLAN needs to be always in place...

...something you need not worry about (most of the time, at least) as far as hardware keyboards and modules are concerned.... well, unless somebody pours beer on your keyboard.... but since that's less likely to happen than a hardware failure on your computer, insurance is less relevant.

yeah, I've seen Brian live a few times and he has changed his setup over the years from a hardcore hardware rig to a Mac and an Ozonic setup. He used to have a custom stutter controller too but i haven't seen him use that lately. The guy uses Ableton live for his DJ work in Laptop Symphony and his regular DJ gigs.

[chuck sabbath]

bt's been known to fake his live performances though

unless somebody pours beer on your keyboard....

i read that the keyboards in nin's touring rigs are all waterproofed thoroughly, sabi ng tech you can literally pour a bottle of water into the keys with no damage

[edgarthewalrus]

i read that the keyboards in nin's touring rigs are all waterproofed thoroughly, sabi ng tech you can literally pour a bottle of water into the keys with no damage

kaya pala sa woodstock 99 at sa aatchb dvd, pinapaliguan nila yung keyboard   

[chuck sabbath]

mismo...tapos pag pa repair nya yung keys nya nasa kontrata na hindi pwede kopyahin yung patches/samples

meron pa syang isang keyboard na nakalagay "do not repair this in any way!!!"

[abyssinianson]

mismo...tapos pag pa repair nya yung keys nya nasa kontrata na hindi pwede kopyahin yung patches/samples

meron pa syang isang keyboard na nakalagay "do not repair this in any way!!!"

you are right. they did an article on what it takes to be NIN's keyboard and sound tech on Keyboard mag during the Fragility tour..the guys basically had to gut EVRYTHING down to the circuit boards to coat them in polyu covering to make sure nothing fluid would seep into the innards of their tech gear on stage. they also did an article on the guitars and since trent used to throw around a lot of guitars, most of the les pauls, dean, and ESP guitars were damaged to some extent on the tour. the playability depended on how badly damaged they got by the end of a show. if the structure was intact and could be glued to reinforce it, they did so, if not, the guitar was sold for charity on Ebay.

NIN's newest keys guy-Allessandro Cortini-built his own rig like Charlie Clouser did his when he toured with NIN last season so I imagine the same standards applied into the design of the gear to make it withstand the shows. I saw the guys live for this tour and they are still as crazy as you would expect...Trent doesn't jump on the guitars or keyboards anymore though from what I hear...

bt's been known to fake his live performances though

he is? where did you read that? from the times I have seen him live the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee - remixes, glitches, messups and all. if I see him at a local gig i might ask the guy if there is truth to this..lol

[marvinq]

wow, if some people go to all this trouble to "gig-proof" their synths, imagine how much more work needs to get done to make a laptop (or even a destop for that matter) gig-worthy.

told sir kitc the same thing -- i tried using my laptop for a few gigs, and while nothing wrong really happened, i was never really at peace... it felt like something was bound to get screwed up sooner or later...

[abyssinianson]

wow, if some people go to all this trouble to "gig-proof" their synths, imagine how much more work needs to get done to make a laptop (or even a destop for that matter) gig-worthy.

told sir kitc the same thing -- i tried using my laptop for a few gigs, and while nothing wrong really happened, i was never really at peace... it felt like something was bound to get screwed up sooner or later...

well, gig proofing for names like NIN and Madonna are a serious business because these guys sell out stadium shows and, if you you take NIN as an example, their shows are known for being violent as well as intricate and beautiful to observe. during the early days (Downward Spiral) I remember trent used to have amps on stage but shows got so violent after that that the amps eventually started getting dwindled down to nothing until he used DI as an exclusive way to get his guitar sounds on tour because having an amp or cab on stage was just going to get doused with water or trashed by someone jumping into the face of the rack cabinet housing the gear. During the Fragility tour, I saw trent jump into a keyboard feet first after he propped it 45 degress on the drum riser. i doubt any gig proofing would have rescued that synth from demise but it gives you an idea what to expect if you end up working for the guy as a tech...

[chuck sabbath]

bt's been known to fake his live performances though

he is? where did you read that? from the times I have seen him live the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee - remixes, glitches, messups and all. if I see him at a local gig i might ask the guy if there is truth to this..lol

its pretty much common knowledge at em411, livepa.org, dancetech and other production sites that the major players (chems, crystal method, bt, prodigy) mostly run off a dat with some triggering and knob twisting going on...orbital and autechre are one of the few who actually do it "live"...of course how live is "live" ba talaga when we're talking sequencers etc?

the reason being is that these guys have a huge operation going on and any live mishaps could result in less than favorable reviews which could damage their rep, theres just too much at stake to have a bad show...hence the reliance on dat

"the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee" well see that would explain a lot...bt's music is really intricate and it would be a logistical nightmare to pull of every little tweak and stutter live...of course everyones using ableton now so i imagine that makes it much easier and they are probably doing a lot more "live" now

the epitome of live electronic for me is someone like squarepusher, it seems like he plays a lot of prerecorded tracks but theres a lot of live bass improv going on and live fx freekery