What is the Achilles heel of our recordings?

[skunkyfunk]

Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds.  Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song.  Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:

-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?

Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...

[teleclem]

Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds.  Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song.  Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:

-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?

Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...

pansin ko nga eh.. maybe the budget?.. gamit, sometimes?.. pati sa music vids..  

[starfugger]

i happen to think there are lots of good local mixes out there.  nagkakaproblema lang naman when we compare our stuff to "foreign" mixes. napansin ko, most of our stuff sound "blanketed" compared to foreign stuff.  the area that seems most "blanketed" are the drums, especially the snare, chaka yung vocals.  notice how the snare sets the quality of the entire mix? dun palang sa unang crack ng snare alam na natin kung local or foreign.  sa vocals naman, we still haven't achieved that super 3D sound found in foreign mixes.

however, i can see that we're almost there.  konti nalang talaga. i think we should all keep trying to improve our skills and keep sharing what we know.  

[cool2ny]

Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds.  Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song.  Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:

-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?

for me, gamit, skills at budget na rin. . . lahat factor

sa gamit at budget, para sakin na hobby (pa lang   ) ang recording, hindi ko kaya maka kuha ng magagandang equipments para sa isang maayos na recording studio. . . i end up using old equipments na "hindi" naman talaga pang recording, but for me, it gets the job done, at least, kahit papano, medyo maayos naman gawa ko

sa skills, i still consider my self a beginner, self taught, sa experience lang  nag gain ng knowledge. . . so kulang pa (ako   )

Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...

para sakin ( and i mean, sakin lang ha, ewan ko lang kung mag agree iba) yung mga nabangit, "make recording sound so pinoy" and i dont look at it as negative, well theres room for improvements and dito sa ganitong situation lalabas ang pag ka malikhain natin, which is very pinoy  

[marvinq]

for me, it's definitely not the equipment.

not the skills. a lot of filipino musicians can kick major ass.

masyado lang nating ginagaya sila. that's a game we only have a very slim chance of winning. halos imposible.

we can never be more western-sounding than the westerners. kadalasan kung hindi man palagi, parang iniiwasan nating magtunog-pinoy, na parang masamang bagay ito.

hindi mali ang magtunog banyaga tayo. pero hindi yun dapat ang inaasinta natin.

hindi lang iilan ang mga banyagang nagsabi sa akin na magagaling ang musikong pinoy. at hindi sila nagsisinungaling.

good music will always be made regardless of budget. kahit pa dumating yung panahong wala nang budget sa musika, meron at meron pa ring malilikhang magandang musika.

so it's also not about the budget.

maraming nagtatanong sa akin kung bakit parang mas magaganda yung musika natin noon. para sa akin, marami pa ring gumagawa ng magandang mga musika ngayon, pero parang alam ko rin yung ibig nilang sabihin. ang sagot ko sa kanila, siguro kasi noong mga panahong iyon, napakahirap talagang mabuhay kung musiko ka lang. kaya ang mga natitira lang doon sa industriya yung mga tunay na nagmamahal sa sining nila. kahit walang pera, tuloy pa rin ang paglikha. sa ganoong sitwasyon, walang kompromiso, at punung-puno ng integridad.

hindi ko rin sinasabing masama ang kompromiso.

ang nakakapahamak sa atin yung kokompromiso tayo sa mga prisipyo natin bilang musiko para lang hindi mawalan ng gig, o para kuhanin ulit ng kliyente. hindi rin masama ang sundin ang mga pinapagawa nila, wag lang sana sa puntong nababaluktot na ang prinsipyo.

sabi ng ilan sa mga kaibigan ko, ang tawag nila dito, pagpuputa...

marami pa ring henyo sa paligid natin. lalung lalo na sa musika. hindi nga lang lahat sa kanila nabibigyan ng sapat na pagkakataong madinig.

marami sa kanila, kahit kailan, hindi na makakapagtanghal sa araneta, sa music museum o sa folk arts...

mamamatay na lang sila, mananatiling bingi pa rin tayo sa pagkahenyo nila...

kasi hindi sila tunog kano....

[marvinq]

it's the premise that foreign music is superior that makes pinoy music inferior.

maririnig natin yan sa mga sarili nating mga tanong.

what makes our recordings so pinoy?....

do our recordings really need improvement, just because they sound pinoy? like it's a bad thing?

inferior equipment was one of the factors that got started that entire hiphop revolution. it's now one of the biggest selling genres in music.

that was an entire culture that refused to ask the question - what's wrong with our music? why don't we sound like the whites?

[abyssinianson]

it's the premise that foreign music is superior that makes pinoy music inferior.

maririnig natin yan sa mga sarili nating mga tanong.

what makes our recordings so pinoy?....

do our recordings really need improvement, just because they sound pinoy? like it's a bad thing?

inferior equipment was one of the factors that got started that entire hiphop revolution. it's now one of the biggest selling genres in music.

that was an entire culture that refused to ask the question - what's wrong with our music? why don't we sound like the whites?

I disagree on several points that you make. One: If you consider our recordings on par with internationally produced records then, sure, the claim of inferiority has no effect. However, if one listens to records and compares a type of sound - British or American - you answer is best summed up according to personal preference. What do YOU like? Personally, I like my music productions warm, punchy, with a realistic in-your-face sound. Do the recordings of local places deliver as well as British and American products? No. But that is MY preference. If you are fine with the local sound - more power to you. Also, no one is "trying"to sound like the "white man." If you've worked in studios long enough or collaborated with different people in music, there is no "white man" dictating the quality of the sound. In reality, studio engineers whether in the US, Japan or Europe, are all of different nationalities. Asking around how you can make your productions sound like the "the white man's" product is going to get you thrown out of the building.

Two: hiphop was NOT launched by inferior gear. Rather, it was launched as a result of cultural innovation and resourcefulness. The boom box, tape, records, and turntables were the tools of early hiphop pioneers. Note, the Technics SL1200MK2 - the DJ and Hip Hop artist's workhorse - is NOT an inferior piece of equipment. If it were, it would not still be in production 30 years after being introduced into the market with virtually no changes to its original design. Moreover, the vinyl record, another integral piece of hiphop, is NOT inferior. In fact, audiophiles - a lot of them - still prefer the warmth and punch of vinyl over digital music reproduction.

So, what is the Achilles heel of our Philippine production work? If marvin says it isn't the skills, or the gear, what is it then? I think, the answer lies in socialization, specifically,social standards pertaining to music. We think American or British made music is better because we have been weaned on it. IS this bad? Not necessarily, except that it seems to irk a lot of Filipino pride as to whether or not we can hang with foreign produced material. My answer to this? Develop and present production material that CAN compare with foreign produced music. If it annoys people so much that Western made music is THE standard then, make a new standard patterned after a local sound, OR develop something that sound totally unique and ends up being recognized as a unique production.

Another point is about Filipino musician's kicking a$$. Sure, this is true - skillwise -  but ask yourself this: when was the last time our country produced an act that was internationally recognized for being uniquely Filipino? When was the last time we produced musical talent that represented something truly Filipino? In my opinion, Freddie Aguilar was the last person that even turned heads abroad that others outside the country actually knew who he was and knew what he contributed to our musical identity. He wasn't looking to sound 'kano, heck, Änak wasn't even sung in any other language until distribution for the music called for translations of the song!

[starfugger]

i think the proof is in the pudding.  our local productions can really use some imrpovement.  however, musicality is a whole different story.  

i appreciate what marvin said about the integrity that musicians had in the past. and when abyss mentions ANAK, it kinda comes together.  you're both right. i think we could all use a little soul searching when it comes to our identity.  but production wise, we could benefit a lot by borrowing knowledge from those who had actually achieved higher quality productions.  to turn a blind eye on the fact that there ARE clearer, cleaner, smoother sounds that had been produced beyond our borders would be detrimental to our industry's growth.

[skunkyfunk]

I think Urban Dub could have sounded huge with a Rick Rubin production...

This "It's the indian not the arrow" mentality that gets abused most often.

[marvinq]

well, i agree on several points that you all have made.

about hiphop music, well, as far as i know, those who got this genre started weren't people who could afford the latest synths and machines and all that. kaya nga yung mga lumang instrumento yung mga ginamit nila eh, including the now priceless tr808's and 12 bit samplers. the main point was, they innovated with whatever tools they had. hindi sila nagpalimita sa gamit na hawak nila.

great music will always be made regardless of the quality of the instruments or tools.

a lot of recordings done here are good. and it was never my intention to say that it's wrong to have a preference for american or british music. i'm just trying to answer a question.

when some of our recordings sound pinoy, maybe it's because that was the intention - to sound pinoy. i don't think i was being inaccurate when i said that most musicians try to avoid 'sounding pinoy', again, like it's a terrible thing.

mga kapatid, maganda rin sana kung magkakaron tayo ng tunog na matatawag talaga nating sariling atin. and maybe then, there could be some weight to the term, ORIGINAL PILIPINO MUSIC.

does anybody of you think i'm lieing when i say a lot of our current music have been derived (either accidentally or on purpose) from american music?

and punto ko, habang ginagaya natin sila, mahihirapan tayong makagawa ng mas maganda o kasing ganda ng likha nila.

sure, i never disagreed that our recordings need a lot of improvement. but i cannot agree that the aim should be to sound like them.

education will play a huge role in putting filipino music in its rightful place. marami tayong matututunan sa musika ng mga kano at mga briton, at hindi ko yon babaguhin.

hindi ko naman iniiwasang gayahin sila eh. pero hindi ko rin iniiwasang magtunog pinoy.

[marvinq]

our recordings need to get better.... not better than...

the quest to make them better shouldn't stop when we've produced recordings that are 'at par' with theirs.

i'm happy with a lot of what's happening with our indie community. palagay ko nandun ang pag-asa natin.

[marvinq]

a lot of our musicians, especially in our local indie community can benefit largely from good equipment, a good working budget, better skills...

ang kulang sa atin, suporta.

the major record companies would rather fund a viva hot babes album than mon david's...

our geniuses don't get heard as much....

kaya karamihan sa mga national artists natin, mahihirap.

[marvinq]

hi again friends.

here's a very recent realization. I think our varying opinions stems from the fact that we're also looking at this issue from varying perspectives. i think we are looking at the same thing from different angles. pero palagay ko pare-pareho rin tayo ng ibig sabihin.

abyssinianson, yes, maybe i did use the word 'inferior' a little too loosely. what i meant was, those turntables, cheap beatboxes, and 12 bit samplers were utilized during an era when the more popular (or 'superior') means of creating music was with a synclavier, a fairlight, or wavetable synthesizers (which sounded more 'real' than those that came before them) or 16-bit samplers, or more recent drum machines. besides, again, 'superior' is also matter of perspective. it's not absolute. if some of the info i provided were inaccurate, then i apologize for whatever confusion they may have caused. but it wasn't a history lesson. the point was, good music will always be created, regardless of methodology.

i agree that our mixes need to be clearer and smoother sounding, punchier. they need to be improved, but not according to a yardstick that is being provided by our neighbors. we need to improve our music. but we shouldn't avoid sounding pinoy.

i think we all agree that our music needs improvement.

i am happy with the very active local indie community we have in our industry. nandun sa kanila ang pag-asa natin.

the major labels would rather fund remake albums, and the likes of viva hot babes... and also for a very good reason, it sells!

i wouldn't be a bit surprised if one of these days, alyssa alano came out with an album... siguradong mapopondohan nang maayos yon.

hindi naman kulang sa pondo eh. sa opinyon ko, napupunta lang sa maling lugar.

keys me.....

[abyssinianson]

yep - the evolution of music trends always comes the underground whether we are talking about indie, hip hop, electronica, or rock. however, there isn't anything wrong with "sounding" pinoy; you can sound as pinoy as you want and refuse to sing in any other language if you want to be a purist about preserving what it really means to sound Filipino. the main point I was trying to make was just in terms of presenting a Filipino sound in the context of international sonic standards so our resulting music is punchier and more accurate in representing the emotion, drive, and content of the music.

I often find it sad that I never got into recording or music production when I was younger and growing up in the Phils because of the rich variety of music we have to offer. There isn't anything wrong with emulating the 'Kano sound, i think, because everyone learns that way: emulating others. However, I really do think that there ought to be more artists looking to grow out of their comfort boxes to embrace what is international and mesh it with what local flavor we have. The result: and international sound that isn't quite like the original. Some acts that come to mind are Junior Kilat, and back in their heyday, The Eraserheads.

On a different note, I really do need to collect indigenous Filipino instruments for use in my own music. In recent years, I have fancied collecting ethnic instruments from different parts of the world but never got a chance to collecting from my own country. I look forward to doing that soon.

[marvinq]

by the way, let me say some things that might already be obvious to a lot of you.

internationally released albums more often than not receive so much more funding than those that are only for local release. only those with the funding will be able to afford redoing a mix on an ssl-equipped studio with a topnotch engineer, just because the hihat didn't sound quite right. so in that respect, it MIGHT be the budget... and skills... and come to think of it, equipment...

again, as a result of that huge funding, the production can also afford topnotch musicians - those people we only know thanks to the magazines... so in that respect again, it MIGHT be skills...

those points, i think, account for a huge part in that seeming difference between our local releases and those that are released internationally...

i'm just guessing, that MAYBE our local releases can compete with the ones for local release in those countries (US, UK, Japan, etc.), most probably because they make use of most things that we also have access to... talent-wise, equipment-wise and funding-wise.

and that's probably a comparison that's fairer, if there is such a term.

but sometimes Davids can win over the Goliaths.

i'd always prefer to listen to Gary Granada rather than Britney Spears.

...and this is the point where budget, skills, and equipment seem irrelevant.

[marvinq]

abyssinianson, you can try looking for some native musical instruments in the antique section of tiendesitas, although a lot of them would need of restoring. but then again, if you're up to it, then i guess you'll find a few gems there.... of course i'm assuming you're here in the philippines.

let me quote you...

....however, there isn't anything wrong with "sounding" pinoy...

my friend, that's exactly the point i was trying to make.

in fact, i agree with every point you've made.

i think we're trying to say the same things in very different ways.

[marvinq]

for the most part, i think major record labels are refusing to take risks - they'd rather keep coming up with remake albums, and making use of their 'tried and tested' formulas -- launching their artists as 'the celine dion of the philippines' or our 'mariah carey' or 'usher' or whatever else.

sa palagay ko, dito tayo nalalagot.

[abyssinianson]

there isn't anything wrong with sounding pinoy - yes - but will sounding pinoy allow us to battle it out with internationally produced music records? not really. why? because the standards are different, and comparing the locally prepared records shows how our products CAN benefit from applying the same approach to our music. i am ot saying its bad to apply the international standards because, at the same time, we can still retain the local voicing while packing the music record in a format, and style familiar to listners abroad.

Funding is a worry in producing local acts. however, there are other acts in the US and in Europe that benefitted from a DiY approach but still garnered great acclaim. Some examples are: Cody Chestnutt's, Bedroom Masterpiece, (made, mastered, and mixed in a bedroom studio with pawnshop analog equipment), The Prodigy's current release, Outnumbered But Never Outgunned, (the foundation was made in Propellerhead's Reason), and Stevie Ray Vaughan's, The Sky Is Crying, a record which incidentally was meant to be a Demo but sounded so good it was released as-is. In these cases, the responsibility of making a good record falls on knowing your gear, and consciously avoiding the pitfalls of having multiples of everything you can get your hands on in a music store. I mean, a lot of project studio people here on the forum have more than enough to lay a strong foundation for a great record so, really, its all in the  methodology of prepping your material so its sounds great.

You are right. Local record companies should stop rebadging singer's records after internationally known names. I mean, what is its purpose? Recognition? Heck, you can only last so long riding some other artist's coat tails, and nothing you can do will work as well as catching people's attention with a well written song or a catchy riff.

[marvinq]

amen!

[markthevirtuoso]

Sabi nga nila:

"You're recording will only sound as good as your weakest link in your signal chain."

Budget and Skills are probably the biggest factors IMHO. Dito papasok siguro ang "tone is in the money" principle. But then again, the skill of the recordist (engineer) makes a lot of compromise to your sound.

[marvinq]

i agree my friend.


..."Your recording will only sound as good as your weakest link in your signal chain."...

the assumption of course, is that the music being recorded is worth recording in the first place.

because even in the most expensive studios, the same principle applies - garbage in, garbage out...

[markthevirtuoso]

the assumption of course, is that the music being recorded is worth recording in the first place.

because even in the most expensive studios, the same principle applies - garbage in, garbage out...

True indeed. Syempre, malaking factor din yung performance nung mga muso.

[teleclem]

a lot of our musicians, especially in our local indie community can benefit largely from good equipment, a good working budget, better skills...

ang kulang sa atin, suporta.

the major record companies would rather fund a viva hot babes album than mon david's...

our geniuses don't get heard as much....

kaya karamihan sa mga national artists natin, mahihirap.

i agree.. Sad isnt it?.. very very true..

[marvinq]

http://www.studioreviews.com/killingmusic.htm

reactions, mga kapatid?

of course the article's correct for the most part...

[abyssinianson]

He is right. Holing up in your studio to perfect your knowledge of your tools is a double edged sword. On one hand, you end up being comfortable with your tools, and can work efficiently to produce the songs that you are working on. On the other, you can get so caught up in being in the studio that you neglect the performance aspect of being a musician. It is for this very reason that I try and regulate the amount of crap I may accumulate if I am not conscious of the pitfalls of GAS attacks.

When I first started getting into recording, I had so many free and purchased plugins in my VST and RTAS/TDM folders that it got wayyyyyyy too overwhelming to even start a song. I mean, I figured that the more I had in my toolbelt, the more productive I would be, right? Wrong. Not only was I swamped with tools, I was swamped with the task of learning what everything did. A few years ago, I did away with all of that and keep my tools - hardware and software - to a bare minimum. Moreover, I've tried streamlining my creative process by using a plain ól notebook to map out prospective ideas for songs. Whether the song is instrument driven, or a remix of an existing song, I either use a notepad, an acoustic guitar, or my mp3 player's record function to try out chord variations and melodies to get those creative juices flowing. I've found that the LESS I have to work with the better I am at coming up with the ideas for songs.