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Author Topic: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH  (Read 14552 times)

Offline rye715

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The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« on: September 18, 2014, 02:15:42 PM »
I don't know if this link has been shared on other threads. The video is recent, was posted only on August 2, 2014.

(it is a little long but it is worth the watch)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmOQuNC1Uw

I just want your ideas about this video and decide whether or not you confirm the results, now that is physics/acoustics is talking.

Looking forward to your replies.






"Musicians are, in a sense, able to manipulate energy in the form of sound. We are able to understand the nature of sound and mold it to our liking. Among other kinds of professions, we are the ones who can wield energy in one of its purest forms."

Online lolwat

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 04:03:59 PM »
My takeaway is that the wood affects amplitude and decay, but not the timbre of the string. Harder materials would make a louder and longer sustaining guitar, but such properties might produce a guitar sound too far removed from what we are used to with pieces built out of wood.

Offline analog.matt

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 05:33:49 PM »
I'd like to see him make 5 identical guitars using his theory. if the 5 guitars turn out to be the same AND exceptional sounding, maniniwala ako.

i respect science very much, but there are still things out there that are not well understood.

but if i were Bill Gates, i'd come up with a huge amount of funding, give the project to top thinkers like Ferrari R&D or NASA's R&D team, or peeps of the same caliber.

im sure makukuha nila yan in a few years.

....then i'll make guitars for everyone to enjoy. hahaha


« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 05:35:50 PM by analog.matt »

Offline rye715

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2014, 07:08:27 PM »
Apparently, the guy in the video got "hate-mail" from various guitarists, musicians, luthiers and possibly manufacturers.

This is his rebuttal (I admire his tenacity and his humor) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJfeFe4CKEk


The age-old, almost-universally accepted truth is challenged, and there comes resistance, which is really natural.

The toneseekers/tonewood fanatics will or may never agree on his point. After all, aside from egos and pride on the line, many manufacturers stake their money/business on the "selling" point of their guitars - that is, the wood.

"Musicians are, in a sense, able to manipulate energy in the form of sound. We are able to understand the nature of sound and mold it to our liking. Among other kinds of professions, we are the ones who can wield energy in one of its purest forms."

Offline Al_Librero

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2014, 10:46:01 PM »
LOL... I like the second video much much more.
Trashcan of Thoughts - http://www.allibrero.com


Offline analog.matt

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 03:03:26 AM »
simple lang yan

prove his theory. materialize his theory.

gumawa siya ng gitara. and dapat it should sound exceptional.

THEN

his next four guitars should be the same para masabi na consistent.

else, its just theory.

parang challenge ni Santana kay Paul Reed Smith--nag pagawa pa siya ng gitara.

after the 3rd guitar, doon na sya convinced na alam ni PRS ang ginagawa niya.



kaya nga Art pa din ang pag gawa ng gitara cuz meron pa din hindi ma translate from science. science is real, hindi lang naaapply ng tama. it takes decades nga minsan.

im not saying he is wrong. im saying, "okay, put it into action. if you can consistently make beautiful sounding guitars ie like the best guitars from the 50s, maniniwala ako".

he's not the only guy out there with that POV.

gayahin niya si PRS -- gumawa sya ng gitara and show that that his theory can be reproduced easily and consistently.





« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 03:10:23 AM by analog.matt »

Online lolwat

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 07:12:04 AM »
To be fair to the guy in the videos, Paul Reed Smith seemed to be on the same page when talking about getting the best sound out of a guitar. Here's a TED talk where he talked about building guitars that "give back" as much energy to the string as possible for the best sound:

Online horge

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 09:09:18 AM »
That second video is gold.

Offline iceblink-luck

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 10:36:19 AM »
watch we often debate this .... thanks for this ...
Feed me with your noise!!!
FOR SALE Guitar EFFECTS:Click THIS---->//talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=282470.msg3863929#msg3863929

Offline Al_Librero

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2014, 10:54:55 AM »
simple lang yan

prove his theory. materialize his theory.

gumawa siya ng gitara. and dapat it should sound exceptional.

THEN

his next four guitars should be the same para masabi na consistent.

else, its just theory.

parang challenge ni Santana kay Paul Reed Smith--nag pagawa pa siya ng gitara.

after the 3rd guitar, doon na sya convinced na alam ni PRS ang ginagawa niya.



kaya nga Art pa din ang pag gawa ng gitara cuz meron pa din hindi ma translate from science. science is real, hindi lang naaapply ng tama. it takes decades nga minsan.

im not saying he is wrong. im saying, "okay, put it into action. if you can consistently make beautiful sounding guitars ie like the best guitars from the 50s, maniniwala ako".

he's not the only guy out there with that POV.

gayahin niya si PRS -- gumawa sya ng gitara and show that that his theory can be reproduced easily and consistently.
His willingness to continue discussing this with people willing to listen and learn is more than enough. Considering the line of thinking (or lack thereof) of many of his skeptics, there isn't much point going out of his way to prove what he no longer considers as theory. Some time ago, Scott Grove attempted to prove the same thing using guitars from his vast collection. Yet, it was not enough to convince the skeptics. He only got buried further across the American forums. And looking through the comments on Paul Reed Smith's Ted Talk, there are no shortage of dismissive (and even abusive) statements over there, either.

Once people resort to exceptional levels of strawman arguments and cherrypicking (not to mention foul language) in an attempt to debunk hard science (which a lot of guitar players and collectors often do), the discussion is over.
Trashcan of Thoughts - http://www.allibrero.com

Offline guitaricci

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 12:46:07 AM »
word of the day: "Intolerable F*cks!!!"

 :-D
Its not the kill, Its the thrill of the chase...

Offline bakit?

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 06:32:51 AM »
di ko na pinanuod. mas madaming salita kesa demo e.
I believe that the definition of definition is reinvention. To not be like your parents. To not be like your friends. To be yourself.

Completely.

Online horge

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 07:39:02 AM »
if you can consistently make beautiful sounding guitars ie like the best guitars from the 50s, maniniwala ako"

But ^that is precisely the sort of thing that gets him so 'animated', lol.

You're missing the point, if your 'proof' is his ability to make guitars "like the best guitars from the 50s".
He's not claiming to be a guitar builder.
He's not claiming to have uncovered some secret to building "the best guitars" (from any era).
He's saying that the secret, if there is one, ISN'T in the selection of tonewood.



1. Keep in mind he's talking about solidbody electrics, and that he isn't claiming that the body/neck
has ZERO influence on string behavior. He's just saying that the influence isn't going to be in terms of
shaping what has come to be called "tone".

2. Also keep in mind, he seems to be operating from a standpoint that clinically-assumes everything
is in working order: the pickups are properly wax-potted (eliminating microphonic properties), and
the bridge+saddle(s) are properly anchored and have significant mass advantage over the strings.


One of three things I dislike about his presentation is the merely-partial treatment of feedback, which
in turn touches on limitation #1 above. He acknowledges that the amplified output --a compression
waveform-- can and will cause a resonant transverse wave vibration in a guitar string. Fine. That'd be
pretty obvious to those who've SUFFERED amp feedback: dampen the strings with your fingers and
the feedback stops. Now..... if the output out of a cranked-up amp can make your balls vibrate, it will
also transfer energy to the guitar body/neck... as can be more significant than vibrations transferred
purely from the guitar strings. Even if we limit discussion of body/neck vibrations to RESONANCE, wood
isn't homogenous: there isn't only one single frequency it might resonate to. Transferrence of wood
vibrations back to the strings may not alter the "tone" as defined by most, but it sure as heck can
affect decay (look up discussions of fretboard deadspots) and quite a few folks literally confuse and
combine tone with sustain. He leaves no room for such an understandable layman's confusion, which
is bad from an educational POV.

The second thing I have trouble with is related, and also deals with body/neck vibrations, but within a
context of partially-microphonic pickups: the body/neck vibrations going direct to pickup, instead of
just back up the bridge and into the strings and THEN to pickup. Again, if the amp is loud enough to
make your nads tremble, it is definitely transferring energy to the body/neck. Since the tonewood isn't
homogenous, it can alter the compression wave slightly, which the pickup will translate into a signal.
In this case, in-phase or out-of-phase interference with string vibration doesn't matter, because it's
the PICKUP's LOOSE WIRES that are quivering. This is of course nitpicky, in a discussion of a simplified
model, but if he's going to mention degraded/microphonic pickups AND we are also considering non-
homogeneity of a wooden body/neck, then I feel it deserves more consideration.

The third thing I dislike relates to #2, and dwells again on non-homogeneity of the guitar body/neck
material. From a clinical standpoint, assuming as-new pickups is fine, but it'd have saved a crapload
of YT-channel angst if he'd left a lot more room for degraded potting to account for microphonics. He
brought it up anyway! He starts wandering off the reservation in video#2 when he says that even if
the body's minor vibrations are picked up by a slightly-microphonic pickup, it'll have no effect on tone.
Kaso nga, wood isn't homogenous. It is composed of fibers of different densities and resonances:
you can't wiggle a toe without slightly moving the ones beside it. That means a compressive wave
sent through the wood isn't always going to translate unchanged before reaching a microphonic
pickup; not the same way it would through a HOMOGENOUS body/neck material. Now, this is a non-
issue IF the only way the body/neck vibrates is from influence from the strings, through the bridge
and into the wood... but again, compressive wave energy from the amp's speakers, striking the body
and neck, is another way, and should be considered.



Bottom line is, he's basically right, for three reasons, and probably more:

He's not talking about vintage (IOW damaged/degraded) electrics.
With everything in as-designed mechanical/electrical working order, influence of tonewood selection
on tone would be insignificant, most especially since he's also talking ONLY about solid-bodies. The
significant factors on signal out of the pickup will be the strings, nut, bridge, fingering and the pickup
itself. The mechanical properties of the wood do matter: compressive/tensile strength and bending
modulus can affect how wave energy is lost from the vibrating strings, but that's a matter of sustain
or decay, not of tone, and ultimately a consideration of structural lumber, not just tonewoods.. and
THAT is why "tonewood selection" isn't terribly relevant for a solid-body electric.

There really ARE a lot of non-knowledgeable f*cks on the internet, who didn't pay attention to basic
physics in HS, college or on their own time*. They just don't know. They can still learn better, if they
are inclined to learn.

There really ARE a lot of ignorant f*cks on the internet, who didn't WANT to pay attention to basic
physics in HS, college or on their own time**. They don't WANT to know. They just pick a belief-set
and cite whatever seems to support said belief-set, while ignoring (hence, 'ignorant') everything
that doesn't support their pet belief. When you corner these ass-hats with facts, they will invariably
retreat to something non-verifiable, like "my ears can hear it; yours aren't sensitive enough, pleb",
which statement isn't objectionable on its own (some ears really ARE more sensitive), but are cancer
in any discussion with demands for verifiable 'proof'.




Jm2 and then some, lol.




*     The discussion is just classical wave, ffsakes... No one is trotting out Planck, nor needs to.
**   Again, no quantum: it is literally stuff that everyone out of High School should know.

.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 07:45:49 PM by horge »

Offline Musikerochan

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 02:30:34 PM »
good heavens this thread is still alive. akala ko matatabunan na naman.

BTT: wathced this vid last thursday. i like how he built similar templates using different tonewoods to prove his point.

Offline dakungfuking

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 06:45:45 PM »
Not all 50's guitars sounds good, not all 58-60's burst sounds killer, and the list goes on

fenders are made of what was readily available , mas choosy pa ang builders ngayon kesa sa mga factories dati all that talk of them being superior are baseless just cause some of them sounds beautiful doesnt mean all of them are, people are forgetting that builders now a days are more consistent than before anybody who argues otherwise is completely clueless

and yes they used old growth lumber then but most reputable builders now still use old growth stuff,

50's consistent? (NOT) yeah consistently inconsistent maybe, case in point, bursts are known to have varying scale lengths some are spot on some are a tad off meaning its all over the place so consistent its not. Early 50's tele have alot of inconsistencies you have to understand that templates wear out they are not built to last and thats what they where using during the 50's na pupudpud din and templates lumuluwag etc... so again nothing consistent in that aspect.

agree ako sayo horge you nailed it in the head

just cause somebody used gemelina to build a tele instead of ash doesnt mean it wont sound like a tele, and until you try finding out by building one yourself then you'll never really know.

building guitars is not rocket science you know how to measure, cut, sand, finish, rout, tool safety and you're good to go dont dwell on tools too much strads arent built using stewmac/lmi tools yet people pay millions for them. just think of it as carpentry but instead of chairs and tables you build guitars

i totally agree with the guy in the video cause i have experienced building guitars im no expert but i have clocked enough experience imho to have the right to have my own conclusions.

 reading that this sounded like this because old growth kasi kahoy nyan or that ash yan or alder etc.... and making one to find out for yourself are two different things



« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 06:36:39 PM by dakungfuking »

Offline Musikerochan

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2014, 02:44:54 PM »
bump

Offline LesBol

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2014, 08:20:47 PM »
I'm excited to hear the comments of the "tone experts" here at GC. Tingnan ko how they would debunk the scientific facts cited in the links...

I'm sure there are those who would defend their purchases of said expensive tone woods.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2014, 09:16:27 PM »
I'm excited to hear the comments of the "tone experts" here at GC. Tingnan ko how they would debunk the scientific facts cited in the links...

I'm sure there are those who would defend their purchases of said expensive tone woods.

Count me out... The guy did NOT explain why a lot of guitars don't have HIYAW and some do.  But in my experience, the wood does matter a lot.  When I bought my Suhr Modern at Manny's New York, I had to compare it exactly to its sister guitar -- just a serial apart.  Everything else was the same in terms of pickups and hardware.  The only difference is paint color.  Following this guy's thinking... its in the paint.  But they were miles apart in HIYAW.
So definitely, this guys is busted for me.

By the way, a long time ago, the suhr factory selected a classic for me with the same specs as the other classics WITH THE SAME COLOR.  They felt it was the best sounding of the batch with the same specs., paint, hardware, electronics etc.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 09:34:04 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline qroon

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2014, 09:31:12 PM »
I think I get his idea. His tests are purely basic sound that you can get out the vibrating strings picked up by the electronics and PU. Note decay, sustain are different aspects.


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Offline dakungfuking

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2014, 12:10:20 AM »
Count me out... The guy did NOT explain why a lot of guitars don't have HIYAW and some do.  But in my experience, the wood does matter a lot.  When I bought my Suhr Modern at Manny's New York, I had to compare it exactly to its sister guitar -- just a serial apart.  Everything else was the same in terms of pickups and hardware.  The only difference is paint color.  Following this guy's thinking... its in the paint.  But they were miles apart in HIYAW.
So definitely, this guys is busted for me.

By the way, a long time ago, the suhr factory selected a classic for me with the same specs as the other classics WITH THE SAME COLOR.  They felt it was the best sounding of the batch with the same specs., paint, hardware, electronics etc.

just goes to show that even suhr hits and misses and by that i mean not all guitars he makes have HIYAW, if he got it all down then each and every other suhr will have the Hiyaw.

your example didnt bust anything the guy said, it just proves that not all guitars are made alike even suhr hits and misses,

so does gibson, so does fender, anderson to name a few

your entitled to your opinion but so are the rest of the people here, sure you've listen to the best of them but have you ever tried making a guitar?

again as i've said its not rocket science, although it does involve some science to it then anything you say here is the same as the guy

who made the vid. its just a theory although i believe he does build guitars in some way or the other giving him a tad more credibility than you e believe

dont get me wrong im not saying he's a Good guitar builder at least at some extent he knows what he is talking about.

when you figure how to make each and every instrument with hiyaw then you hit the holy grail. until then they'll be instruments with hiyaw

and instruments that just doesn't have it. its not only present with guitars that are boutique i have experienced it with a used law suit era fernandes revival strat too
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 12:20:13 AM by dakungfuking »

Offline dakungfuking

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2014, 12:13:09 AM »
double post
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 12:21:13 AM by dakungfuking »

Offline dakungfuking

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 12:30:43 AM »
By the way, a long time ago, the suhr factory selected a classic for me with the same specs as the other classics WITH THE SAME COLOR.  They felt it was the best sounding of the batch with the same specs., paint, hardware, electronics etc.

and if your opinion on wood is correct then all things equal each and every classic on your batch should have sounded excellent like your classic

but unfortunately NOT your's sounded better and im not contesting that cause i do believe that no two  instrument even if the wood was from the same tree would sound exactly the same,

kahit na same specs pa yan.


Offline dakungfuking

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 01:21:15 AM »
I'm excited to hear the comments of the "tone experts" here at GC. Tingnan ko how they would debunk the scientific facts cited in the links...

I'm sure there are those who would defend their purchases of said expensive tone woods.

id take a body blank full of knots and cracks but well seasoned than a perfectly no defect body blank but was dried too quickly.

you can buy a $500 quilt top maple over a $100 honduran mahogany body, with a $100 1pc honduran mahogany neck and a $100 braz Fingerboard and still have a 90%  question mark if your guitar will have HIYAW



Offline firemodel55

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 04:59:41 AM »
just goes to show that even suhr hits and misses and by that i mean not all guitars he makes have HIYAW, if he got it all down then each and every other suhr will have the Hiyaw.

your example didnt bust anything the guy said, it just proves that not all guitars are made alike even suhr hits and misses,

so does gibson, so does fender, anderson to name a few

your entitled to your opinion but so are the rest of the people here, sure you've listen to the best of them but have you ever tried making a guitar?

again as i've said its not rocket science, although it does involve some science to it then anything you say here is the same as the guy

who made the vid. its just a theory although i believe he does build guitars in some way or the other giving him a tad more credibility than you e believe

dont get me wrong im not saying he's a Good guitar builder at least at some extent he knows what he is talking about.

when you figure how to make each and every instrument with hiyaw then you hit the holy grail. until then they'll be instruments with hiyaw

and instruments that just doesn't have it. its not only present with guitars that are boutique i have experienced it with a used law suit era fernandes revival strat too

Just some points of clarification:

Though Suhrs have plenty of misses, Ibanez has more than five times or even ten times the number of misses.  In fact, I have tested more Ibanez guitars in my lifetime than Suhrs.  I think I only found one Ibanez with hiyaw while I have found two Suhrs with it.  That's a testimony to better wood selection by Suhr.

Some opinions are BETTER than others.  I do NOT intend to make a guitar because a good number of known luthiers on this planet have turn me down because they cannot simply guarantee hiyaw.  So, why would I even pretend to know better by building one myself?

I think the difference between me and that guy in the video is that I HAVE 13 GUITARS that ALL have HIYAW across different designs and configurations.  All of them are very special in the sense that compared to their equivalent contemporaries of the same specification, they have MOJO.

HIYAW can be present in non-boutique guitars/cheapo -- I agree with that -- but extremely rare.  Its so rare that its easier to find it in boutique or American made guitars.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: The Effect of Wood as Defined by Physics itself - MUST WATCH
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 05:03:00 AM »
and if your opinion on wood is correct then all things equal each and every classic on your batch should have sounded excellent like your classic

but unfortunately NOT your's sounded better and im not contesting that cause i do believe that no two  instrument even if the wood was from the same tree would sound exactly the same,

kahit na same specs pa yan.

FOR CLARIFICATION:  I attribute to MOJO factor of my specific Suhr Classic to the wood used.  Like you I believe that wood from the same plank can produce a different sounding guitar -- one with MOJO and one without.