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Author Topic: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?  (Read 2117 times)

Offline sassy

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how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« on: February 05, 2010, 12:03:03 PM »
pa help naman po sa mga drummer na nagdadala ng sariling mixer sa gig...? usual problem ko kasi sa gig, hindi binibigay ng tech ang tamang sound (clarity and balance)na gusto ko. its either hindi ako naintindihan ng tech or kulang pa cya sa experience which often result to feedbacks and bad mood (on my part) hehe... no problem sa mga manila gigs pero dito sa pampanga, konti lang ang bihasa and nakakaintindi sa pagmix. kaya naisipan kong bumili nalang ng mixer para ako nalang ang sisisihin pag mali ang pagkamix. anyway, before I buy, nais ko sanang itanong or maghingi ng payo paano ba ang tamang pagmix.

and paano ma-achieve ung balance ng sound ng snare drum and ung rim click/shot kagaya ng live na song ni nina-through the fire. hindi kasi maipalabas ng tech dito ang effect na yun. gusto ko kasi pantay ng lakas pag pinalo ang snare drum and ung cross stick (diko alam ang tamang term...)
thanks in advance mga pinoy drummers!

Offline uglyguy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 12:44:45 PM »
pa help naman po sa mga drummer na nagdadala ng sariling mixer sa gig...? usual problem ko kasi sa gig, hindi binibigay ng tech ang tamang sound (clarity and balance)na gusto ko. its either hindi ako naintindihan ng tech or kulang pa cya sa experience which often result to feedbacks and bad mood (on my part) hehe... no problem sa mga manila gigs pero dito sa pampanga, konti lang ang bihasa and nakakaintindi sa pagmix. kaya naisipan kong bumili nalang ng mixer para ako nalang ang sisisihin pag mali ang pagkamix. anyway, before I buy, nais ko sanang itanong or maghingi ng payo paano ba ang tamang pagmix.

and paano ma-achieve ung balance ng sound ng snare drum and ung rim click/shot kagaya ng live na song ni nina-through the fire. hindi kasi maipalabas ng tech dito ang effect na yun. gusto ko kasi pantay ng lakas pag pinalo ang snare drum and ung cross stick (diko alam ang tamang term...)
thanks in advance mga pinoy drummers!

nasa drummer na po yan ... wala sa tech

Offline archraven_012

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 01:51:20 PM »
nasa drummer po yun kung gs2 mo pantay yung tunog ng palo mo...kung alam mo naman na ok na yun tunog nun drumz kz sa simula nagtetest mic na ang tech sa lahat ng mic lalo na sa drumz...depende na lang kung ordinary mic ang nakalagay sa drumz...yan medyo may problema tlga....kz di maganda quality sounds lalabas dun for sure...kz tinatanong na rin ng tech sa drummer kung ok n yun tunog ng drum eh..

Offline sassy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 03:17:17 PM »
nasa drummer na po yan ... wala sa tech

pantay naman po ang pagpalo ko sa snare and cross stick (as far as I'm concerned), dinig naman sa pwesto ko sa drumset pero sa house speakers, according sa mga friends ko na drummer, hindi masyadong dinig or hindi mo mafeel na lumalabas sa speakers. And I think nasa pagkamix lang, its either mahina masyado ang overhead mic (shure SM57),... Im not sure kung ano lang ang tamang mix (low, mid, or high) para maging clear or ma-boost ang frequency. I'm asking kung ano ba dapat or ano ang tamang setting sa mixer.  :?

thank you in advance sa mga nakakaintindi sa problem ko...

Offline uglyguy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 03:24:24 PM »
pantay naman po ang pagpalo ko sa snare and cross stick (as far as I'm concerned), dinig naman sa pwesto ko sa drumset pero sa house speakers, according sa mga friends ko na drummer, hindi masyadong dinig or hindi mo mafeel na lumalabas sa speakers. And I think nasa pagkamix lang, its either mahina masyado ang overhead mic (shure SM57),... Im not sure kung ano lang ang tamang mix (low, mid, or high) para maging clear or ma-boost ang frequency. I'm asking kung ano ba dapat or ano ang tamang setting sa mixer.  :?

thank you in advance sa mga nakakaintindi sa problem ko...

sm57 for an over head? eeewwwww

sir yun nga sa tingin mo .. pantay ka pumalo .. sa tingin mo po .... iba po ang tunog ng drums behind the drums at sa harap .... minsan nga sa tingin natin tama lang palo natin.. pero ang lakas pala or mahina .. you can't tell po ... but as sa sinabi mo an sm57 for an overhead ..... and baka mali pa ang position .... hmmmmm


Offline wilpredo

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 05:27:07 PM »
pantay naman po ang pagpalo ko sa snare and cross stick (as far as I'm concerned), dinig naman sa pwesto ko sa drumset pero sa house speakers, according sa mga friends ko na drummer, hindi masyadong dinig or hindi mo mafeel na lumalabas sa speakers. And I think nasa pagkamix lang, its either mahina masyado ang overhead mic (shure SM57),... Im not sure kung ano lang ang tamang mix (low, mid, or high) para maging clear or ma-boost ang frequency. I'm asking kung ano ba dapat or ano ang tamang setting sa mixer.  :?

thank you in advance sa mga nakakaintindi sa problem ko...

bro naka-mic ba ang snare mo? kasi kung overhead lang, may difference pero sobrang konti lang.  :-D
the corny stuff is what pays you :)

Offline sassy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 07:13:37 PM »
nakamic-in lahat. snare, tom1&2, bass drum,hihats, and isang overhead para sa ride and crash...
un nga ang nakakainis, kumpleto and bago ang mga gamit pero hindi maipalabas ng maayos ang sound sa house.
even sa monitor ko, an daming kulang...

that's the reason why I'm planning to buy my own mixer para ako nalang sana magmix...
kaso konti palang idea ko kung paano mag mix... :-(

pa-share naman ng mga sikrets nyo (to those who bring their own mixer sa gig)...
I guess makakatulong din ito sa mga (indie) musikero na nais magrecord ng sarili nilang mga songs, para magka-idea din sila paano magmix...

Offline drummer10630

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 07:36:00 PM »
I wrote this years ago and it's posted all over the internet:

Mic'ing Drums for Live Performance


Microphone selection

This is a very subjective area, and every engineer (and drummer) has his or her preferences. Here is a list of commonly used mics and their applications, not in any particular order.
Kick

AKG D-112E, or the earlier D-12E. Electrovoice RE-20, Beyer M-88, Sennheiser MD-421U, Shure Beta-52, Shure SM-91(regular or beta versions), Audio Technica AT-4060.

Snare
Shure SM-57, or SM-56 (same as 57 but has tilt mount), Audio Technica AT-4053, Audix D-3, AKG D-1000E.
 
Toms
Sennheiser MD-421U, Sennheiser E-604, Shure SM 98 (or 98-A), AKG 408, Ramsa S-5, Audio Technica AT-4053

Overheads-HiHat
Shure SM-81, AKG 451, or 460, Audio Technica AT-4051.


Placement

Now let's talk placement. These would be starting places but actual placement would depend on how it SOUNDS, now how it looks. And you also have to take into account the comfort for the drummer (as big mics can be intimidating to relaxed playing), and what kind of kit set up present, and what kind of stands you are using.

Kick
If there is a hole cut into the front bass drum head, then the mic is inserted about 2" inside the hole and aimed just off center to the beater. If there is no front head, then place the mic inside the drum about 1 foot in front of the strike head again aimed just off center. Personally, I have had good luck with an AKG D-112E, or EV RE-20 at the hole and a Shure SM-57 placed inside mixing the two mics together.

Snare
For live sound, I generally don't mic the bottom of the snare so let's talk about top snare placement. With a Shure SM-57, I place it over the snare, next to the mounted tom, almost flat across the drum head, angled down slightly, with the capsule about 1 inch over the head. Any more, and it will get damaged by a stick hit. If you find it necessary to use a bottom snare drum mic, feel free to. Some guys like it to get extra buzz from the snare strainer, or even a different midrange tone. I suggest that you place it under the snare drum, aimed up at the drum at an angle, about 6 inches away from the drum. Keep in mind that this is just a starting place, and you will have to experiment. Make sure you put this mic out of phase if you are using it in addition to a top snare mic.

Toms
Similar to snare micing, only with more of an angle perpendicular to the floor (or head). Even if I have concert toms, I do not mic from the bottom or inside, as there can be problems picking up all of the audio from floor monitors.

Overheads
Up over the cymbals, left and right (I use two), on stage right between the ride cymbal and 1st crash aimed a little towards the other cymbals upstage. On stage left, over the 1st crash, aimed a little towards the other cymbals upstage.

Hi-Hat
Over the hat almost perpendicular to the floor but aimed upstage a bit.


EQing

Kick
Generally, I roll off 600-800hz about 6-10db, and boost a tiny little 3.5k for some snap (if it's needed). You may have to noodle around with 2k a bit to keep the punch, but lose the harshness.
Snare
I usually cut 1k about 3db, and roll off anything under 600hz using the high pass filter, in the mids only. Then I select the 80 hz or 100hz shelf if it's available.

Toms
Very similar to the bass drum settings, only you have to cut the low end to cut down on the sustain of the tom, especially if the drummer doesn't use any muffling. If the low end cut isn't enough and the toms are out of control, I insert a gate compressor and set the gate at it's fastest attack with the release point sounding as natural as possible (just like the drum sustain sounds to the drummer), and I compress it about 3:1.

Overheads-HiHat
Generally I roll off anything below 2k using the high pass filter, or just turning the mids and low EQ's all the way down, and then I select 4k or 5k and boost it 3db-6db. I also select the 80hz-100hz shelf. This works if you want to get the nice high end of the cymbals only, but sometimes I open up the mids a bit if I need to hear some ambience of the toms in these channels too, like if the drummer is using brushes, or Pro Mark Hot Rod type multi dowel sticks. In addition to the above, I have also had success using ONLY a kick mic, and ONE overhead if mics or channels are limited.

Another successful action for me, (but only in clubs with carpeted stages) has been to lay a Shure SM-57 on the floor on the beater head side of the bass drum, under the snare, and then used ONE overhead. You'll be amazed how well this works. Don't be afraid to move the mics around and listen to see what sounds best to you. Keep in mind that you are amplifying the sound of the drum kit that has been made available to you. If the kit already sounds bad, you will just end up with a LOUDER bad sounding kit. On he other hand, radical EQ'ing can really make up for a lot, and "create" a good sounding drum kit
 

Offline sassy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 06:37:28 PM »
I wrote this years ago and it's posted all over the internet:

Mic'ing Drums for Live Performance


Microphone selection

This is a very subjective area, and every engineer (and drummer) has his or her preferences. Here is a list of commonly used mics and their applications, not in any particular order.
Kick

AKG D-112E, or the earlier D-12E. Electrovoice RE-20, Beyer M-88, Sennheiser MD-421U, Shure Beta-52, Shure SM-91(regular or beta versions), Audio Technica AT-4060.

Snare
Shure SM-57, or SM-56 (same as 57 but has tilt mount), Audio Technica AT-4053, Audix D-3, AKG D-1000E.
 
Toms
Sennheiser MD-421U, Sennheiser E-604, Shure SM 98 (or 98-A), AKG 408, Ramsa S-5, Audio Technica AT-4053

Overheads-HiHat
Shure SM-81, AKG 451, or 460, Audio Technica AT-4051.


Placement

Now let's talk placement. These would be starting places but actual placement would depend on how it SOUNDS, now how it looks. And you also have to take into account the comfort for the drummer (as big mics can be intimidating to relaxed playing), and what kind of kit set up present, and what kind of stands you are using.

Kick
If there is a hole cut into the front bass drum head, then the mic is inserted about 2" inside the hole and aimed just off center to the beater. If there is no front head, then place the mic inside the drum about 1 foot in front of the strike head again aimed just off center. Personally, I have had good luck with an AKG D-112E, or EV RE-20 at the hole and a Shure SM-57 placed inside mixing the two mics together.

Snare
For live sound, I generally don't mic the bottom of the snare so let's talk about top snare placement. With a Shure SM-57, I place it over the snare, next to the mounted tom, almost flat across the drum head, angled down slightly, with the capsule about 1 inch over the head. Any more, and it will get damaged by a stick hit. If you find it necessary to use a bottom snare drum mic, feel free to. Some guys like it to get extra buzz from the snare strainer, or even a different midrange tone. I suggest that you place it under the snare drum, aimed up at the drum at an angle, about 6 inches away from the drum. Keep in mind that this is just a starting place, and you will have to experiment. Make sure you put this mic out of phase if you are using it in addition to a top snare mic.

Toms
Similar to snare micing, only with more of an angle perpendicular to the floor (or head). Even if I have concert toms, I do not mic from the bottom or inside, as there can be problems picking up all of the audio from floor monitors.

Overheads
Up over the cymbals, left and right (I use two), on stage right between the ride cymbal and 1st crash aimed a little towards the other cymbals upstage. On stage left, over the 1st crash, aimed a little towards the other cymbals upstage.

Hi-Hat
Over the hat almost perpendicular to the floor but aimed upstage a bit.


EQing

Kick
Generally, I roll off 600-800hz about 6-10db, and boost a tiny little 3.5k for some snap (if it's needed). You may have to noodle around with 2k a bit to keep the punch, but lose the harshness.
Snare
I usually cut 1k about 3db, and roll off anything under 600hz using the high pass filter, in the mids only. Then I select the 80 hz or 100hz shelf if it's available.

Toms
Very similar to the bass drum settings, only you have to cut the low end to cut down on the sustain of the tom, especially if the drummer doesn't use any muffling. If the low end cut isn't enough and the toms are out of control, I insert a gate compressor and set the gate at it's fastest attack with the release point sounding as natural as possible (just like the drum sustain sounds to the drummer), and I compress it about 3:1.

Overheads-HiHat
Generally I roll off anything below 2k using the high pass filter, or just turning the mids and low EQ's all the way down, and then I select 4k or 5k and boost it 3db-6db. I also select the 80hz-100hz shelf. This works if you want to get the nice high end of the cymbals only, but sometimes I open up the mids a bit if I need to hear some ambience of the toms in these channels too, like if the drummer is using brushes, or Pro Mark Hot Rod type multi dowel sticks. In addition to the above, I have also had success using ONLY a kick mic, and ONE overhead if mics or channels are limited.

Another successful action for me, (but only in clubs with carpeted stages) has been to lay a Shure SM-57 on the floor on the beater head side of the bass drum, under the snare, and then used ONE overhead. You'll be amazed how well this works. Don't be afraid to move the mics around and listen to see what sounds best to you. Keep in mind that you are amplifying the sound of the drum kit that has been made available to you. If the kit already sounds bad, you will just end up with a LOUDER bad sounding kit. On he other hand, radical EQ'ing can really make up for a lot, and "create" a good sounding drum kit
 


Bro, thanks sa time mo sa pagreply and sa mga suggestions mo...  greatly appreciated :-D

Offline francisnuega

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 02:56:25 PM »
dynamics nalang bro kung hindi madikartehan yung sa tech...

Offline uglyguy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 07:37:19 AM »
gusto ko kasi pantay ng lakas pag pinalo ang snare drum and ung cross stick (diko alam ang tamang term...)
thanks in advance mga pinoy drummers!

sir iisang instrument lagn naman pinapalo mo ... and iisang mic lang naka lagay dyan ... wag mo sisihin yun tech pag di pantay tunog nyan ... nasa drummer na yan .... dahil iisang micing lang ginagawa dyan ... you produce the sound ..

Offline bajofantastiko

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 04:02:20 PM »
+100 kay drummer10630 for a very comprehensive insight! very useful info. :D i feel for sassy, he's my drummer. hehehe...
poste lang!

Offline sassy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 12:48:43 PM »
si uglyguy mukhang affected... baka tech din cya.  :roll:
anyway, fyi, naayos na ang tunog sa bar na tinutugtugan namin last monday. iba na kasi ang tech and from manila pa na nakakaintindi talaga.
ang sarap talaga tumugtog pag dinig lahat ng mga instrumento.

thank you sa mga nagbigay ng advice!


Offline bajofantastiko

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 05:10:01 PM »
text mo si manong tech. sana punta sya ulit. kung ganun ba lagi ng ganun, e di ansarap tumugtog. hehehe...
poste lang!

Offline sassy

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 11:30:22 AM »
haha, share ko lang, natawa kasi ako, drummer din pala si mr. bean... :-D


ang galing mo magdrums mr bean!


Offline MixMan

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Re: how to mix the drum? do's and dont's?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2010, 02:20:38 AM »
regarding the near loudness of your snare hit, cross stick  or even with rim shot a COMPRESSOR will greatly help you to achieve that.. :-D