hulika

Author Topic: drum miking suggestions  (Read 2797 times)

Offline peeves24

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drum miking suggestions
« on: June 25, 2006, 06:32:28 PM »
hi guys!

need a little help with stereo micing. this is my setup



four samson mics were used, dynamic mics on snare and bass then a pair of c01 condensers overhead. the condensers are actually 5 ft above the ground. they were panned hard left and right. no eq or effects were used, just plain mic to mixer to laptop mic in :D

my problem is that i didnt get enough separation from the cymbals. i wanted to hear the ride on the left side only (with a little bleed on the right) and the hihat on the right.

im trying a different setup next week and will add another condenser on the hihat. can you give suggestions for better separation?

me on sound check http://www.raketship.com/drumblog/pao_036.mp3

notes on the samson mics:
- excellent off axis rejection on the dynamic mics
- bass drum mic needs improvement, doesnt capture much lowend
- c01s are quiet (i would consider buying them instead of the behringer c2, sayang i already have the c2 on order)

Offline abyssinianson

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2006, 06:50:57 PM »
to add a bit of air to the drum overheads, mix down with a another pair of room mics located 1-2 feet away from the existing overheads or, try using larger diaphragm overhead mics spaced a bit wider than the Samson's you are currently using. The larger sized mics might capture a bit more of the atmosphere, and give your mix space if you don't have additional pres to use for the room mics.

Also, try this little trick: apply a short - a very, very short delay with a quick decay - to the overhead mics. Add enough so that the decay is lengthened a bit to add the illusion of space. If you are adding soft knee compression to your cymbals before mixing it down into the main drums signal, apply the compression BEFORE and AFTER the delay to see what suits your ear better.

Bass drum: to capture the bass drum end, try positioning the bass mic inside the kick and EQ it to accentuate the low end. if you can, position another mic further out the kick under a draped blanket, preferably wool or something to dampen and focus the sound more around the mic. what is your kick drum made out of birch? maple? my brother and I play drums and we both prefer maple for our kick and snare drums (external brackets only, no shell perforations for a more focused sound), and use birch for our toms. i find that this combination works well live and in the studio because the drums cut better as a result of the resonant quality of the wood used. also, try some drum pads and changing your kick drum mallets. I like danmar double metal kick pads in combination with small mallets on my DW 9002 pedals.  the smaller size of the mallets with a soft head combined with the fast attack of the 9002 works really well in efficiently transfering my kicks into the drum and projecting sound well.

hope this helps!
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Offline jplacson

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Re: drum miking suggestions
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2006, 07:07:52 PM »
Quote from: peeves24
hi guys!

my problem is that i didnt get enough separation from the cymbals. i wanted to hear the ride on the left side only (with a little bleed on the right) and the hihat on the right.



Hmmm...   Try lowering your trim/gain on these mics so it will minimize sensitivity to the other cymbals.  And get them a lot closer to the target cymbals as well.  You'll lose your "air" but you will get the separation you want.

If you can get a pair of small pencil condensers that would be better.  Leave the ones you have now as over heads... but use the pencil condensers for better separation.  "Mix to suit your taste".

You'll have to experiment a little more to get the sound you want.
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Offline peeves24

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 07:48:38 PM »
salamat sa mga suggestions mga sir!

i might hold off recording till i get my behri so i can try both of your suggestions. i'll use the behris for overheads and the samsons as room mics.

Offline KitC

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 08:29:40 PM »
Over at another forum where I moderate, I had this interesting 'conversation' with a studio owner from Croatia and we were discussing stereo miking techniques. He mentioned that he gets a more controlled stereo image from his overheads by using a coincident pair X-Y configuration than by using a spaced pair, which is what your illustration shows. Granted that he was using a pair of SDCs (making it easier to position the capsules together), I found a certain amount of validity in his practice. Here's a shot of his setup:

The thread can be found here.

abyss, do you compensate for 'distance latency' (for lack of a better term) with the distant pair? Every foot of distance from the source adds approximately a millisecond of delay from when the overhead 'hears' the source compared to the room mics. This could potentially cause phasing issues.
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Offline Blueberri

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 09:03:18 PM »
I just want to say that i too had better results of getting a stereo image/overall volume balance from the set-up above, than the spaced set-up...though i was just using a cheap, but identical pair of mics (I unscrewed the grill screens)...simpleng home recording lang ginawa namin...just for a demo...multi-track...with a stereo drum track...we experimented a lot...and got the best sound out of the x-y config, with just another mic on the kick...Ill try to post a link of some samples...pahingi na rin feed back on the sound!

Offline starfugger

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2006, 04:36:05 PM »
i use a spaced pair but am still in the process of experimenting between distances.  the pair i use are two ldc's (at4040) which are pretty good at capturing the overall sound, but since i also mic the toms, i have found myself eq'ing out the lower end from the overheads lately.  

i'll be posting sound clips later of the raw drum mics.  the separation is decent but not very tight.  im wondering if i can do an x-y using the LDC's, with all those bulky shockmount in the way.
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Offline peeves24

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2006, 12:56:01 AM »
just got behringer c2 earlier today and have been playing with it. initial impression is that its clean sounding but i think it lacks presence (c2 sounds thinner) compared to sm98. im not complaining, actually its bang for my buck. it can capture conversations audibly from 15 feet away using only one mic. tried to record two acoustic guitars and its clean and crisp.

got it for 3900 only from electronics depot ali mall.

cardiod pattern only with 10db pad. cheap holders. metal casing and also feels cheap. what can i say, it is cheap after all.

i got an email today saying that my online purchase got back ordered so i cancelled it as it will clearly miss my july 6 deadline. called up audiophile to get samson c01 instead but audiophile ali mall didnt have them on stock so i visited electronics depot and was surprised that the c2 was lesser than i thought. the rest is history...

Offline starfugger

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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2006, 08:11:47 AM »
ok, these are clips i pulled up from a few months back.  theyre totally raw and no processing whatsoever was done.

1) Clip A - AT4040's overhead, sm 57 snare, D12E kick - done when i first got the 4040's. i quickly set them up as a spaced pair (dont remember the distance though) and did a little groove, running back and forth to press the little record button  :lol: .

http://soundkitchen.co.nr/uploads/mp3/rawdrumsA.mp3

2) Clip B - same setup, but with an additional bottom mic on the snare (KSM32). this is another drummer.

http://soundkitchen.co.nr/uploads/mp3/rawdrumsB.mp3
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Offline starfugger

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006, 10:24:59 AM »
congrats on the new mics peeves.  hope to hear your behringers soon.

i forgot to mention that there are some differences between the drum setup of clips A & B.  If i remember correctly, the mic pre's on clip A were hotter.  it was only later that i noticed that the mics were overloading at higher settings.  Or it could possibly be that on clip A the mics' pads weren't engaged, as they definitely were on clip B.  The drums on clip A were your usual 5 piece kit with the ride on the right and the cymbal on the left, while on clip B, the ride was positioned where rack tom should be(closer to the middle), plus there were 2 crashes on both the left and right side.  The kick on A had no resonant head, and the mic position inside, near the batter head, while on B the resonant head was installed, with the mic placed a couple of inches from it.  and yes, we used different hats.  clip A was a pair of B8 pros, and B was Paiste Alpha.  these clips were recorded at different times.

i've tried using a different batter head as abyssianianson mentioned it DOES make a huge difference.  the client came in with a double pedal (pearl, mid range or high end pedals) with a rectangular batter head and the sound REALLY changed from dull to focused.  i'll be experimenting with peeve's setup above to see how well centered the snare can get.
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Offline peeves24

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2006, 12:52:00 PM »
demn i wasted 5 hours of rental time, lugged along all my drums and cymbals to the rehearsal studio. used my newly acquired behringers and brought along a borrowed pair of sm81s in coincident pair config, tried various ic placements on the front, back and sides of the kit.

one weird thing i noticed is that im getting a doppler effect from my main crash cymbal. it sounds like somebody is panning from L-R everytime i hit it. how do i get rid of it? i just want the sound to stay in one place  :( this happens on all mic placements i've tried some are less and some are very irritating to the point that the sound of the cymbal seems like it is being cancelled out and sooo thin.


lessons learned last saturday:

- cant discern any difference between the sm81s and my behris ... now that is a good thing for me (maybe if i had a better mixer and monitor that it should be obvious)
- i suck at mic placement techniques
- separation is just a small part of the problem, the biggest problem is that my ride is not loud enough to be heard (ergo need to buy a new one)
- didnt get a chance to record anything except for doodles
- maraming sako pa ng bigas ang kakainin ko  :D

Offline abyssinianson

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drum miking suggestions
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2006, 04:51:15 PM »
i compensate for the "latency" by experimenting with mic placement depending on the set of cymbals I am working with. For example, the K series from Zildjian are great live -  a bit dark but strong projection from crashes - however, i don't like their decay as much as the A Customs. As a result, I tend to position overheads closer to the Z's than I do with the Custom crashes. Custom compatible cymbals from Meinl, and Sabian behave similarly and have a good long decay that I like so I try and find a spot that captures the decay of the cymbals best but doesn't sound too airy on the recording. After I find the sweet spot, I record a few runs to see which positions offer the best īn-your-face sound. EQing the highs and applying compression shouldn't be too much trouble if you get a good foundation recording.


Quote from: KitC
Over at another forum where I moderate, I had this interesting 'conversation' with a studio owner from Croatia and we were discussing stereo miking techniques. He mentioned that he gets a more controlled stereo image from his overheads by using a coincident pair X-Y configuration than by using a spaced pair, which is what your illustration shows. Granted that he was using a pair of SDCs (making it easier to position the capsules together), I found a certain amount of validity in his practice. Here's a shot of his setup:

The thread can be found here.

abyss, do you compensate for 'distance latency' (for lack of a better term) with the distant pair? Every foot of distance from the source adds approximately a millisecond of delay from when the overhead 'hears' the source compared to the room mics. This could potentially cause phasing issues.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!