Building your DAW inch by inch

[markthevirtuoso]

Guys,

i'm planning to start creating a "decent" DAW for my personal recordings. However, my current budget won't allow me to buy them all immediately. And i don't want to make compromises on the sound quality either.

Any suggestions on which to prioritize first among the list?

1. Preamps
2. Audio Interface
3  Microphones
4. Monitors


Enthusiasts, please feel free to post your inquiries here as well.

[abyssinianson]

my suggestion is to get things in this order:

-DAW PC
-Audio Interface
-Monitors
-preamp
-mic

the pre and the monitors need to be bought relatively close together because mixing with crap pc speakers will affect how you mix your songs. also, you don't want to adjust your mix to be bassier than they sound on non-studio monitors because they will translate the wrong way to consumer level speakers. so, get speakers that are as flat as you can get them for your budget and set everything on your audio interface to be as flat as possible so hear an accurate representation of your music. hearing your music in a flat sounding context will allow you to better mix the different elements of the song.

as an added measure - and I do this a lot as well to ensure that my ears do not cheat and make uneccessary sound adjustments to fluff a mix - run your final mix (before bouncing to a final stereo track) through frequency analysis to see if it is too bassy, too trebly, or whatever...

[KitC]

To add to what abyss ssaid, and I can't stress this enough: Build your DAW according to the software you intend to run it with.

All too often, we build the computer first then get the software next, only to find out that there are incompatibilities with certain peripherals. Of course we would like the latest and the greatest but that is not necessarily so like, you don't need that uber fast, 512 meg ram video card in your DAW. Unless you are doing video post production, DAW graphics are mostly 2D and a powerful video card can rob you of some cpu and bus resources.

Next, design the DAW according to the audio interface you intend to use, be it pci, pcie, firewire or usb. You can eschew emerging technologies and go for pci soundcards, but the technology seems to be in a crossroads now with mobos being limited to 2 or 3 pci slots in favor of more pcie slots. Apparently, the future is firewire.

[markthevirtuoso]

my suggestion is to get things in this order:

-DAW PC
-Audio Interface
-Monitors
-preamp
-mic

the pre and the monitors need to be bought relatively close together because mixing with crap pc speakers will affect how you mix your songs. also, you don't want to adjust your mix to be bassier than they sound on non-studio monitors because they will translate the wrong way to consumer level speakers. so, get speakers that are as flat as you can get them for your budget and set everything on your audio interface to be as flat as possible so hear an accurate representation of your music. hearing your music in a flat sounding context will allow you to better mix the different elements of the song.

as an added measure - and I do this a lot as well to ensure that my ears do not cheat and make uneccessary sound adjustments to fluff a mix - run your final mix (before bouncing to a final stereo track) through frequency analysis to see if it is too bassy, too trebly, or whatever...

Very well said sir Abyss.

I analyse frequencies  as well whenever i bounce.

 

[markthevirtuoso]

To add to what abyss ssaid, and I can't stress this enough: Build your DAW according to the software you intend to run it with.

All to often, we build the computer first then get the software next, only to find out that there are incompatibilities with certain peripherals. Of course we would like the latest and the greatest but that is not necessarily so like, you don't need that uber fast, 512 meg ram video card in your DAW. Unless you are doing video post production, DAW graphics are mostly 2D and a powerful video card can rob you of some cpu and bus resources.

Next, design the DAW according to the audio interface you intend to use, be it pci, pcie, firewire or usb. You can eschew emerging technologies and go for pci soundcards, but the technology seems to be in a crossroads now with mobos being limited to 2 or 3 pci slots in favor of more pcie slots. Apparently, the future is firewire.

I'm actually planning to get a PCI interface. But then taking your adivice into account, would i not worry about latency issues with Firewire Interfaces? PCI still is the fastest connection you can get from any external devices, isn't it?

[markthevirtuoso]

Which firewire interface would you recommend sir Kitc?

As for the PCI Delta1010 comes first to my mind.

I've a question BTW regarding a particular preamp (Focusrite Octopre LE) which has ADAT (lightpipe) i/o's and at the same time analog outputs.

How would i record and multi-track using the ADAT out? It does carry 8 tracks simultaneously, doesn't it? Would i just connect it to the ADAT input of the Interface? what is the  ADAT in (preamp) normally used for?

[KitC]

I'm actually planning to get a PCI interface. But then taking your adivice into account, would i not worry about latency issues with Firewire Interfaces? PCI still is the fastest connection you can get from any external devices, isn't it?

Yes, pci is the fastest for now and pcie seems to guarantee greater bandwidth and speed as well. There are emerging pcie soundcards, notably Apogee's Symphony, but it is Mac-only  while UA now has a pcie version of their UAD-1 card.

Which firewire interface would you recommend sir Kitc?

Without question the RME Fireface. You can achieve latencies down to 2 ms with that interface. Next would be the Presonus Firebox or Firestudio. I didn't mention the Firepod because it's lack of a mixer application lessens its flexibility. There are some who don't like the fact that the Presonus units don't change samplerates when you switch your DAW to another samplerate - you have to do the change manually.

How would i record and multi-track using the ADAT out? It does carry 8 tracks simultaneously, doesn't it? Would i just connect it to the ADAT input of the Interface? what is the  ADAT in (preamp) normally used for?

The Octopre LE doesn't come standard with an A/D - D/A interface; adding that adds ADAT connectivity, meaning, the Octopre's signals san now be sent out via ADAT lightpipe. This means, however, that you should also have an ADAT capable soundcard.

The Delta 1010 doesn't have ADAT connectivity. None of M-Audio's pci interfaces do. Only their firewire Profire and Firewire 1814 come equipped with ADAT capability. MOTU's pci-based cards like the 828 Mk II come equipped with ADAT. Even my Emu has an ADAT port so I can expand it with an ADAT interface such as the Octopre, Behringer ADA8000, Presonus Digimax, and now SM Pro Audio's PR8 Mk II (I hope there's a Black Lion mod for this unit).

[markthevirtuoso]

I'm actually planning to get a PCI interface. But then taking your adivice into account, would i not worry about latency issues with Firewire Interfaces? PCI still is the fastest connection you can get from any external devices, isn't it?

Yes, pci is the fastest for now and pcie seems to guarantee greater bandwidth and speed as well. There are emerging pcie soundcards, notably Apogee's Symphony, but it is Mac-only  while UA now has a pcie version of their UAD-1 card.

Which firewire interface would you recommend sir Kitc?

Without question the RME Fireface. You can achieve latencies down to 2 ms with that interface. Next would be the Presonus Firebox or Firestudio. I didn't mention the Firepod because it's lack of a mixer application lessens its flexibility. There are some who don't like the fact that the Presonus units don't change samplerates when you switch your DAW to another samplerate - you have to do the change manually.

How would i record and multi-track using the ADAT out? It does carry 8 tracks simultaneously, doesn't it? Would i just connect it to the ADAT input of the Interface? what is the  ADAT in (preamp) normally used for?

The Octopre LE doesn't come standard with an A/D - D/A interface; adding that adds ADAT connectivity, meaning, the Octopre's signals san now be sent out via ADAT lightpipe. This means, however, that you should also have an ADAT capable soundcard.

The Delta 1010 doesn't have ADAT connectivity. None of M-Audio's pci interfaces do. Only their firewire Profire and Firewire 1814 come equipped with ADAT capability. MOTU's pci-based cards like the 828 Mk II come equipped with ADAT. Even my Emu has an ADAT port so I can expand it with an ADAT interface such as the Octopre, Behringer ADA8000, Presonus Digimax, and now SM Pro Audio's PR8 Mk II (I hope there's a Black Lion mod for this unit).

Yeah, the Delta1010 doesn't have ADAT. I'm gonna be looking for one soon.

Are there any pros and cons in using ADAT as preferred to the analogue preamp-AI chain?

[abyssinianson]

ADAT has a clean signal that is less prone to noise and interference. moreover, you are preserving an accurate representation of what you are putting INTO your DAW which makes your work as an audio engineer much easier since you are given a lot to work with for the mixing of the material. here, the more accurate the material in your DAW, the better you are able to mix the song accurately as it is supposed to be heard. however, this does not say analog is bad, ADAT lightpipe is just a more efficient way of translating data into your computer.

[markthevirtuoso]

ADAT has a clean signal that is less prone to noise and interference. moreover, you are preserving an accurate representation of what you are putting INTO your DAW which makes your work as an audio engineer much easier since you are given a lot to work with for the mixing of the material. here, the more accurate the material in your DAW, the better you are able to mix the song accurately as it is supposed to be heard. however, this does not say analog is bad, ADAT lightpipe is just a more efficient way of translating data into your computer.

Input taken sir Abyss.

I guess i'd go for ADAT then.

[markthevirtuoso]

Next would be the Presonus Firebox or Firestudio. I didn't mention the Firepod because it's lack of a mixer application lessens its flexibility. There are some who don't like the fact that the Presonus units don't change samplerates when you switch your DAW to another samplerate - you have to do the change manually.

Sir, anong ibig nyong sabihin sa mixer applications?

[KitC]

mark,

By mixer applications, I mean the the control app that comes with most soundcards. For example, RME has Totalmix, MOTU has Cuemix, Emu has patchmix, while Creamware's Scope has a virtual mixer as well (doesn't it's patch routing remind you of kxproject?).

Anyway, these mixers are not your average windows mixer. Aside from the usual pan and level controls, they usually have added features. For example, with Emu's Patchmix, the mixer has 'sends' that allow you to setup monitor routings, external effects options, auxiliary routing options and even use onboard DSP for effects with very minimal cpu load. I can control output levels individually (-10 or +4), set up S/PDIF or ADAT with my optical ports, select either S/PDIF or AES/EBU with my coax digital, and set up sync options among other things. Try to find those in a standard windows mixer.

[markthevirtuoso]

mark,

By mixer applications, I mean the the control app that comes with most soundcards. For example, RME has Totalmix, MOTU has Cuemix, Emu has patchmix, while Creamware's Scope has a virtual mixer as well (doesn't it's patch routing remind you of kxproject?).

Anyway, these mixers are not your average windows mixer. Aside from the usual pan and level controls, they usually have added features. For example, with Emu's Patchmix, the mixer has 'sends' that allow you to setup monitor routings, external effects options, auxiliary routing options and even use onboard DSP for effects with very minimal cpu load. I can control output levels individually (-10 or +4), set up S/PDIF or ADAT with my optical ports, select either S/PDIF or AES/EBU with my coax digital, and set up sync options among other things. Try to find those in a standard windows mixer.

I've never really heard of that (i know the "average mixer" though). It sure shows my inexperience to such.  

Dami ko agad natutunan! All cleared sir!

[markthevirtuoso]

Any mid-end drum OH's to suggest? MXL603 comes first in my least.

[plugzzzz]

anu po marerecommend nyong monitor for recording na mura pro OK or theres no such thing???.. can i use ordinary computer speaker like altec lansing VS 4121??..

[abyssinianson]

there are a lot of smaller and affordable studio monitors that you can use to properly mix your songs.  A lot of choice models from Samson, M-Audio, Yamaha, and KRK can be had for a relatively affordable amount. From those, I would recommend going with choices from Krk and Yamaha, with Samson as a close second.

The reason why you can't monitor on stuff like Altec Lansing is because those are consumer level speakers - speakers that normal consumers listen to music through. Using proper monitors to balance and mix your songs will ensure that you are hearing everything in your song. Accurately listening to your mix through proper monitors will allow you to tweak the different frequencies in your mix so you can translate your song properly to a wide variety of speakers. Now, you might ask why your Altec's can't do these things, right? Well, you can - to an extent. However, something that sound good through your Altec's might lead you to mix with those speakers in mind, so you end up cutting, say, the bass from the mix because it gets too overwhelming. What this does is that your mix ends up sounding sterile through other bigger systems because the drivers on those are bigger, and the frequency range is much, much broader than your Altec Lansing speakers.

The role of proper monitors is this: you are paying for the chance to listen your mix as flat as you can get it so you can properly adjust the levels and frequencies in the song so it fits different speakers and sound systems roughly the same way.

[plugzzzz]

pwede sir give a specific model and an idea how much it cost??...may mabibili ba na good monitor for 10K  ??...

[KitC]

If you were making music for computer games, the Altecs will do fine because you sometimes have to use the right speaker for the intended use of your music. I have an Altec ACS-45 system and my take on it is that it has a noticeable dip in the midrange while there is a substantial notch at the subwoofer crossover frequency, not a smooth transition between the satellites and the sub. Definitely qualities you would not want when mixing music.

plugzzz, I read in the Marketplace that you were selling your MSP-10. Too bad you didn't get a pair then you would have a monitoring setup already. No good monitors selling for 10k, sorry. For me, a good monitor starts with having at least a 6-inch woofer.

[plugzzzz]

If you were making music for computer games, the Altecs will do fine because you sometimes have to use the right speaker for the intended use of your music. I have an Altec ACS-45 system and my take on it is that it has a noticeable dip in the midrange while there is a substantial notch at the subwoofer crossover frequency, not a smooth transition between the satellites and the sub. Definitely qualities you would not want when mixing music.

plugzzz, I read in the Marketplace that you were selling your MSP-10. Too bad you didn't get a pair then you would have a monitoring setup already. No good monitors selling for 10k, sorry. For me, a good monitor starts with having at least a 6-inch woofer.

yeah gusto ko nga tunog nung yamaha msp10 kaya lang isa lang eh selling it to buy a much lower model na pair

[markthevirtuoso]

Roughly, what basic PC specs would it require for me to multi-track record atleast 8 tracks and to work out a mixing session of atleast 30 tracks (including Auxes) with say 1 or 2 plugin running as an insert on each of them.

[markthevirtuoso]

Sir KitC, Emu interfaces also interest me particularly the 1820.

I'm thinking of an 'EMU1820 + Octopre LE via ADAT' combo (it'll cost more though )

How has your Emu served so far?

[KitC]

Sir KitC, Emu interfaces also interest me particularly the 1820.

I'm thinking of an 'EMU1820 + Octopre LE via ADAT' combo (it'll cost more though )

How has your Emu served so far?

Quite great, actually. The hard part will be getting the right mobo. Right now, it seems the Nforce3 Ultra chipset provides the best performance for this card. My 1820m has gone thru the Nforce, Nforce2, and now the Nforce3 chipset without incident and has worked almost flawlessly - too bad N3 mobos are discontinued, but if your chance on these 2 boards, MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum and Gigabyte K8NS Ultra 939, get 'em!

There were a few headaches, but I was able to deduce it was due to a slowly dying PSU in my computer. Motherboard Monitor confirmed that the 12V rail was getting quite low already (that's generic PSUs for you).

I think the Emu + Octopre would make a great combination. If you decide to get this card, you know who to call for a headache free install.  

[markthevirtuoso]

Sir KitC, Emu interfaces also interest me particularly the 1820.

I'm thinking of an 'EMU1820 + Octopre LE via ADAT' combo (it'll cost more though )

How has your Emu served so far?

Quite great, actually. The hard part will be getting the right mobo. Right now, it seems the Nforce3 Ultra chipset provides the best performance for this card. My 1820m has gone thru the Nforce, Nforce2, and now the Nforce3 chipset without incident and has worked almost flawlessly - too bad N3 mobos are discontinued, but if your chance on these 2 boards, MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum and Gigabyte K8NS Ultra 939, get 'em!

There were a few headaches, but I was able to deduce it was due to a slowly dying PSU in my computer. Motherboard Monitor confirmed that the 12V rail was getting quite low already (that's generic PSUs for you).

I think the Emu + Octopre would make a great combination. If you decide to get this card, you know who to call for a headache free install.  

Yep, Thanks!