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The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: rockman888 on September 14, 2008, 11:27:53 PM
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I really had a hard time yesterday mixing the sound for the church.
And i'm new in this thing but i really want to know what to do.
I've already done any research regarding the eq.
*i was wrong on my part because i let the band practice on the music room(not at the stage!) while i was mixing! :?
I thought it was ok...
Sunday came... al lot of negative comments, e.g. (monitors were weak) (ngo-ngo ung voice)
D last part was "May daga natutulog sa mixer! Nag CR pa nga"
Medyo may sira na rin ang connectors sa snake etc... but that's ok for now.
the EQ is my problem guys... thanks
BTW you can add your experiences on being a "sound techinician"
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The 31 band eq is normally employed either for the FOH or the monitor system, or both. You are not suppose to change the setting of this type of equalizer unless you have a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer or any sound analyzing equipment, and, the most important of all, you must know what you are doing. This eq is used to tame offending frequencies in the sound system - that tend to bring about feedback and other problematic frequencies. For FOH, I tend to equalize the system with the high frequency rolling off at 2 dB steps per freq. starting at about 8 or 10 khz. For the lower portion, I tend to roll off from 60 hz down at the same 2 dB step or as needed. Then, I feed pink noise into the system to see what frequencies are a little high. These I bring down until I get a smooth sound and curve. I do not attempt to get a flat response. That will never happen and it will not sound good at all. The object is to get a "musical" response and utmost intelligibility. For monitors, I tend to boost the speech frequency, roll off from 125 hz down on the LF and about 8 to 10 khz in the HF. I get my analyzer and look again for feedback frequencies and bring these down. I push the monitor faders up to ring the system, adjust frequencies that feed back some more and go to the stage to listen. I make sure that the monitors sound clear especially with the vocals. I tend to just put the vocals on the monitors and possible the keyboard if I am just doing a single mix. I just keep everything simple. With the monitor set up and the mixes fixed, I now concentrate on the house mix. I eq the voices boosting on frequencies that will make them clear, and roll off frequencies not needed. These are usually frequencies below 60 hz. where the vocals do not have any information. Eq the other instruments to sound good, concentrating on the fundamentals of each instrument. I then balance to attain the most musical and smooth sounding mix. The secret? Musicality (you have to have an ear; it helps if you are a musician) and experience, as well as knowledge of how sound behaves, mic techniques and understanding the various characteristics of instruments and voice. Finally, last but not least, if you do not know, ask ... and learn.
FWIW
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The 31 band eq is normally employed either for the FOH or the monitor system, or both. You are not suppose to change the setting of this type of equalizer unless you have a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer or any sound analyzing equipment, and, the most important of all, you must know what you are doing. This eq is used to tame offending frequencies in the sound system - that tend to bring about feedback and other problematic frequencies. For FOH, I tend to equalize the system with the high frequency rolling off at 2 dB steps per freq. starting at about 8 or 10 khz. For the lower portion, I tend to roll off from 60 hz down at the same 2 dB step or as needed. Then, I feed pink noise into the system to see what frequencies are a little high. These I bring down until I get a smooth sound and curve. I do not attempt to get a flat response. That will never happen and it will not sound good at all. The object is to get a "musical" response and utmost intelligibility. For monitors, I tend to boost the speech frequency, roll off from 125 hz down on the LF and about 8 to 10 khz in the HF. I get my analyzer and look again for feedback frequencies and bring these down. I push the monitor faders up to ring the system, adjust frequencies that feed back some more and go to the stage to listen. I make sure that the monitors sound clear especially with the vocals. I tend to just put the vocals on the monitors and possible the keyboard if I am just doing a single mix. I just keep everything simple. With the monitor set up and the mixes fixed, I now concentrate on the house mix. I eq the voices boosting on frequencies that will make them clear, and roll off frequencies not needed. These are usually frequencies below 60 hz. where the vocals do not have any information. Eq the other instruments to sound good, concentrating on the fundamentals of each instrument. I then balance to attain the most musical and smooth sounding mix. The secret? Musicality (you have to have an ear; it helps if you are a musician) and experience, as well as knowledge of how sound behaves, mic techniques and understanding the various characteristics of instruments and voice. Finally, last but not least, if you do not know, ask ... and learn.
FWIW
Damn! this is really nice, any seminar or clinic about Audio freq. sir mikep
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EQ is just like MASTERFADER divided by 31 Sliders.
You can train yourself on the EQ. DIY again...i used this method:
First thing is to FAMILIARIZE the frequency bands: ZERO everything or even pull everything down and INDIVIDUALLY MEMORIZE the sound produced by EACH BAND of the EQ. From that point, pag na-memorize mo na, you will be able to recognize problems. i.e. You will be able to know what band to roll down if there's a feedback especially fom the mics and monitors ( if you did not EQ'd the monitor system - sometimes you bring down faders if this happens - very bad if the masterfaders). Hindi madali mag-EQ. Especially sa church? You dont " soundcheck" at center only. Check your sound everywhere ( lahat ng corners, sa entrance doors, side doors, etc... to make sure everything on SOUND is CLEAR for your brethrens...
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Sir mikep, thank alot!
Salamat po sa mga nag post.
Sa palagay nyo po ba makukuha yung sound na hinahanap or mini-mix in less than a day?
BTW, ung left na FOH speaker sira po ung tweeter kya hirap ung right FOH.
In regards po sa 31 band eq. I'll try my best! Kasi po umalis ung sound tech po eh nang matagal na panahon, i have no contacts to the person.
Ok din po sa akin kung i-coach nyo po ako and maybe i'll post some clips/sound or video sa church while mixing.. :-D
Gusto ko rin pong maka-attend sa mga seminars about setting up and reinforcing sound system.
"Wala daw po sa gamit, kundi sa gumagamit" thanks again!
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"Wala daw po sa gamit, kundi sa gumagamit" thanks again!
Tama ka. But the thing is learn and understand.
Alien_Inside said that a 31 band EQ is a series of master faders - yes, the only thing is, each fader represents a frequency which can either boosted, rolled off or cut. What they did (Don Davis, et. al.) was to divide the frequency band into 31 bands and have each fader represent a certain frequency assignment or band. Also, I agree that you can train yourself in being able to tell the various frequencies by memorizing how they sound (I know some people who can do this well). But the easier way is to use a spectrum analyzer. Only, you have to invest in one; there is a cost involved.
If you intend to seriously go into becoming a pro in audio, it would be good to invest in measuring equipment. You can start with getting a good SPL meter - even a cea[p Radio Shack will do. Secure a CD with different tones and this you can use to tune a system. As you go more advanced, invest in additional equipment, computer programs, vibration analyzers, SPL meters that go down to 5 dB, etc. which you will need as you pursue your craft. But the most important of all is, you should know and understand what you are doing, and how to use the tools properly. I have spent lots of money studying and improving my craft and invested on a lot of measuring, design and test equipment (including 3 professional recording studios that I use as a laboratory, TRACKStudios, and where Bamboo, Rico Blanco, the Eraserheads [[we're mixing their reunion concert now] and others record. And am still trying to perfect my craft and learn more. I still consider myself a student of audio and acoustics. Learning about audio, acoustics and life in general should be a continuing thing and should only end when you die. You want to undertand the graphic EQ? Start with getting some explanations from the net. And if you want to know more, keep on researching. Also, ask.
FWIW
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Sa palagay nyo po ba makukuha yung sound na hinahanap or mini-mix in less than a day?
Hintay muna, hindi sinagot ito. You can get what you want in less than 15 minutes if you know what you want, what you are looking for, and know what to do, especially the tools that you have to use. Start off with mic techniques, then faders or balance, then EQ, then reverbs, delays, effects and other processors. Then tweak to get the smoothest and natural sound. That will take about 15 minutes approximately if you know what to do.
FWIW
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Hintay muna, hindi sinagot ito. You can get what you want in less than 15 minutes if you know what you want, what you are looking for, and know what to do, especially the tools that you have to use. Start off with mic techniques, then faders or balance, then EQ, then reverbs, delays, effects and other processors. Then tweak to get the smoothest and natural sound. That will take about 15 minutes approximately if you know what to do.
FWIW
GAANO KALAKI YUNG CHURCH NILA?
i had experiences with this church installations, EQ was the very last thing to tweak during the sound check inside this church in magsingal, ilocos sur. it took us 4 to 5 hrs to nearly perfect the overall sound inside the church. The final sound check was the mass the following day. The objective was CLEAR SOUND to the mass goers.
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn447/alien_inside_photos/Magsingal.jpg)
Magsingal Church.... Laoag City Church is far BIGGER but with the same setup.
SPEECH + MUSIC lang dito sa church na'to! although sometimes, may acoustic band setup( Piano+violin+guitar+choir only)........what if LIVE BAND NA?
The sound installation was made by CRSytian Enterprises, QC...i'm one of their Live Sound Engr. & keyboardist.
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can posting pics of my church help? If it will, then maybe you could see something wrong... :?
Baka kasi mali yung spkr positions
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can posting pics of my church help? If it will, then maybe you could see something wrong... :?
Baka kasi mali yung spkr positions
I posted the pic for you to imagine how the system was installed inside. well, on that church above, 16 new speakers were installed. Yung dating system kasi nila cant kill the natural reverb inside, so pagdating sa gitna and sa likod, di na gaanong maintindihan yung speech...better go outside kasi may mga TROMPA sa itaas.
Sa mga old churches na tulad niyan, may mga malalaking poste sa magkabilang gilid ( maybe to support the HEAVY ROOF aside from the THICK WALLS )...dun naka install ang mga speakers...Bawat poste, may speaker.
Try also visiting small to BIG I.N.C. churches and observe the speaker placements.
So why not post? sir mike might give you advice on speaker placement.
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I posted the pic for you to imagine how the system was installed inside. well, on that church above, 16 new speakers were installed. Yung dating system kasi nila cant kill the natural reverb inside, so pagdating sa gitna and sa likod, di na gaanong maintindihan yung speech...
I'm just curious. What type of sound system was installed in that church before? When the 16 new speakers were installed, their sound system now can "kill the natural reverb inside"? Please explain.
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I'm just curious. What type of sound system was installed in that church before? When the 16 new speakers were installed, their sound system now can "kill the natural reverb inside"? Please explain.
...before, the sound isn't clear with 2 main speakers in front, 4 speakers sa left, 4 din sa right installed sa walls ( di makabuga ng tamang power ang mga speakers, also, luma na ang mga speakers, mahina ang amps, etc. ),... and i quoted "CANT KILL THE NATURAL REVERB"...imagine a reverb processor with 40D:60W. You hear more reverb than or OVER the normal or DRY sound. NOW, "CAN KILL" ( 70D:30W) na, kasi, we doubled the number of speakers ( now it's 8 by 8). So mass goers can clearly hear the "talkings" of those who are in the MICs, kahit nasa bandang likuran ka na sila. i hope it's clear.
Reverbs are produced inside... outside are delays, echoes, repeats...
Correct me na lang if something's wrong with my explanations.
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...before, the sound isn't clear with 2 main speakers in front, 4 speakers sa left, 4 din sa right installed sa walls ( di makabuga ng tamang power ang mga speakers, also, luma na ang mga speakers, mahina ang amps, etc. ),... and i quoted "CANT KILL THE NATURAL REVERB"...imagine a reverb processor with 40D:60W. You hear more reverb than or OVER the normal or DRY sound. NOW, "CAN KILL" ( 70D:30W) na, kasi, we doubled the number of speakers ( now it's 8 by 8). So mass goers can clearly hear the "talkings" of those who are in the MICs, kahit nasa bandang likuran ka na sila. i hope it's clear.
Reverbs are produced inside... outside are delays, echoes, repeats...
Correct me na lang if something's wrong with my explanations.
Okay, I get it. You're talking about optimizing the ratio of direct to reverberant field.
The sound coming directly from the loudspeaker is called the direct field. When this direct field strikes a boundary such as a wall, floor, or ceiling, it is reflected back into the room. The reflections are the reverberant field.
When using separately spaced loudspeakers in rooms such as a church or gymnasium where there are hard reflective surfaces, each loudspeaker creates its own individual sets of reflections. Since the biggest problem preventing intelligibility in this room is the amount of reverberation, when you double the number of loudspeakers, you are in effect doubling the number of reflections.
In every room, there is a point at some distance from the loudspeaker where this direct field and the reflections or reverberant field become equal in level. This is called the point of critical distance. Beyond the point of critical distance, the quality and intelligibility of the sound quickly suffers.
When we optimize the ratio of direct to reverberant field by proper placement and angling of the loudspeakers to allow more direct field and less reverberant field to reach the listeners' ears, we are improving the the sound system's performance by moving the critical distance point further back into the room.
Medyo mahirap talaga ipaliwanag sa Tagalog pero sana malinaw ito.
FWIW, ika nga ni mikep. Hehe!
:-)
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Amen, Tarkuz. You got it nailed right there. So, Cesar S. was the one who set up and probably designed the PA system. Nice. Send my regards.
BTW Alien_Inside, are you the church's sound engineer or Cesar's?
Thanks.
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Amen, Tarkuz. You got it nailed right there. So, Cesar S. was the one who set up and probably designed the PA system. Nice. Send my regards.
BTW Alien_Inside, are you the church's sound engineer or Cesar's?
Thanks.
To Sir MikeP:
I'm with CRS. Keyboardist, and Sound Engr. since i resigned from GAYCo.,Inc.
To Sir Tarkuz:
The speakers are elevated 8ft above the ground, and slightly SLOPED or SLANTED at about -20degreesfrom the X-axis ( that's 340 on the 4th quadrant ), down to the mass goers... so there's no way of having SEVERE reflections.
I got your exact point, with EXACT TERMS... but i think your explanation is quite hard for other THREADREADERS to simply and easily understand. I think not all members here are technically knowledgeable. let's say, 20% of us are...how about the 80%? 8-)
maybe mcf is laughing again... he he he...sorry talaga....
Anyway, let's just wait for Rockman888 to post how small or big is their church.
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The speakers are elevated 8ft above the ground, and slightly SLOPED or SLANTED at about -20degreesfrom the X-axis ( that's 340 on the 4th quadrant ), down to the mass goers... so there's no way of having SEVERE reflections.
Okay, I get it. You're talking about minimizing the reflections.
The more reverberant the room, the more critical it is that we do whatever we can to maximize the direct sound field while attempting to minimize the reverberant sound field. The simplest way to do this is to turn the speakers inward and tilt them down toward the listeners. You want to have as much of the direct signal as possible to arrive at the listener's ears, and you also want as little as possible reverberant background noise (i.e. you want to create the best possible Signal-to-Noise ratio). When placing the loudspeakers in a room, it is important to aim them directly on-axis at the listeners so that more direct sound arrives at their ears allowing for an improved ratio of direct-to-reverberant field.
I got your exact point, with EXACT TERMS... but i think your explanation is quite hard for other THREADREADERS to simply and easily understand. I think not all members here are technically knowledgeable. let's say, 20% of us are...how about the 80%? 8-)
maybe mcf is laughing again... he he he...sorry talaga....
Acoustics is a difficult subject for me and I don't expect the other threadreaders to fully understand it. If we really want to get technical, we should be talking about Absorption Coefficients, Reverberation Time, Directivity Factor, Articulation Loss of Consonants, etc.
I am sure mcf is enjoyng your posts... Hehe!
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Acoustics is a difficult subject for me and I don't expect the other threadreaders to fully understand it. If we really want to get technical, we should be talking about Absorption Coefficients, Reverberation Time, Directivity Factor, Articulation Loss of Consonants, etc.
OT: No calculus please. That's 4 semesters (ok, 6) of my life that got completely wasted.
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I got your exact point, with EXACT TERMS... but i think your explanation is quite hard for other THREADREADERS to simply and easily understand. I think not all members here are technically knowledgeable. let's say, 20% of us are...how about the 80%? 8-)
maybe mcf is laughing again... he he he...sorry talaga....
Tarkuz's post was as clear as day to me. But yes, I am laughing...
OT: No calculus please. That's 4 semesters (ok, 6) of my life that got completely wasted.
With 1 textbook through all those semesters: by LOUIS LEITHOLD! Thicker than the old unified PLDT directory.
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...tagal kasi ng pics... rockman888.
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Mga sirs. sorry sa matagal na reply, siguro po sa sunday pa ako makakapagpost ng pics kasi hindi nahiram ang digicam, :-(
Anyways papunta ako doon sa church, mag mimi-mix ako while putting all of the ideas posted by fellow members, and i'll be updating you guys later (mahirap ang net dito kc malayo sa bahay...)
BTW, ung construction po ng building puro mga concrete pati ceiling kaya iba po yung environment....
Pati po sa loob...
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I was wondering for a time who mcf was. Now, I know. Regards, chief.
Acoustics indeed is one subject matter that gets the best of everyone primarily because it does use a lot of math (calculus, differential equations, etc.). But as long as you understand what is needed and to be done, all those mathematical equations can be dispensed with momentarily. Regarding the use of speakers, I would prefer keeping things simple. Instead of putting a lot of speakers all throughout the church, I would just concentrate on one point source, cluster the speakers together, possibly long throw ones, and probably some fill or delay speakers if the room is long. Point or aim the axis towards the people and toe in the speakers as not to have the side of their sound waves hit the side walls which will bring reflections, as Tarkuz had said (unless you put absorbers). Also, I would cut the LF info in the Eq, which would develop anyway in a big room like a cathedral. My take is that the more speakers you distribute all around, the more you agitate the modes of the room, resulting to defeating your quest for intelligibility. Too many reflections, again as Tarkuz mentioned, bring lots of echoes, standing waves and unwanted long reverberation, which masks intelligibility in the room. My method however, is just one of the many solutions that people involved in audio and acoustics have in their artistic or creative palette. It is the proper understanding of the science/physics as well as the available tools (speakers, electronic processors, new technology, etc.), not to mention cost implications, that must be given priority in undertaking solutions or design considerations for such situations.
FWIW
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I was wondering for a time who mcf was. Now, I know. Regards, chief.
Seņor! Cuidate! :)
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A little OT. Are you going to import some AC 15s? I want one.
Regards,
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A little OT. Are you going to import some AC 15s? I want one.
Regards,
Thanks lots, Ser. Will call you tomorrow.
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OT: hi chief...maybe somebody's watching UPSTAIRS...??? i ididn't had any update about the D-??, etc.
PM or TXT. OT talaga to. i will delete after reply.
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Hi guys sorry for the late reply
here are the pics
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/2881123185_0469962b4f_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2881956178_6288ae3a19_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2881954760_881edbbbd9_b.jpg
This is it, the building starts up to the doors with glass, there's the sanctuary.
E2 pa po yung gear namin
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2881951608_8c3b9ac8d4.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2881935264_9aa2e20542.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3081/2881102929_fcb96dce62.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/2881932842_19bf2e9e31_b.jpg
E2 po sa loob
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3222/2881930142_80ff5fe3e2_o.jpg
D2 po ung mga mixer ung maliit na room
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3043/2881929812_61ba3366c8_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3234/2881094199_ec5fb0083f_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2881117977_192c0dfd51_b.jpg
BTW, it's hard to upload pics.
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Hi guys sorry for the late reply
here are the pics
http://photos-p.friendster.com/photos/14/21/8851241/1_545524727l.jpg
http://photos-p.friendster.com/photos/14/21/8851241/1_266627519l.jpg
http://photos-p.friendster.com/photos/14/21/8851241/1_439707455l.jpg
This is it, the building starts up to the doors with glass, there's the sanctuary.
BTW, it's hard to upload pics.
how about photos INSIDE?
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sorry nag-error po post ko. i edited my last post, sorry.
I just added some pics
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Hi guys, malaki po ang naitulong ninyo sa pag-ayos ng PA system na handle ko.
I'm still far from getting to learn a lot of stuff and technicals etc....
Ngayon mas ok na yung PA system at mas clear ang voice at instruments.
Ang kinaganda po is meron pang ma-i-gaganda ung sound, maybe i need to research in my part.
Salamat po sa mga suggestions and comments. thanks again!
I'll be waiting for more post. I still consider myself as a newbie. :lol:
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start to flat the EQ then check your voice in the mic if you feel that the Mid of your voice are higher try to cut down the frequency star from 800hz up to 1khz on your EQ if you are using 31band, now most of the problem with regards on "NGONGO" you need to remove the low frequency or if you are using crossover the low cut put on 80hz so that the sound output will more clarity.
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Sir ryanbairan,
Thank you po sa reply. :-D
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how's the sound? ano ginawa mo sa system? gumana ba yung peavey powered mixer?