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The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: bahayyugyugan on September 07, 2009, 03:54:34 AM
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ano ang tama?
tapusin ko ba muna yung drum track then add compression and eq's..
or set ko na yung compression and eq's then start drum tracking..
gusto ko kasi malaman, di ko pa kasi natest since by weekend pa talaga ako magsisimula.
maraming salamat!! :-)
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Depende. Pag outboard ang compressor and EQ mo,you'll have to set them before you begin.
Pag VST ang compressor and EQ mo, it doesn't matter as you can still change them even if your drums are already recorded.
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I use a VST compressor. I record the drums first then add the compressor.
mas madali mag lagay ng compressor and eq's after recording para na titimpla mo pa. :-D
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Both ways. No set rules. Whether plug in or hardware, it really depends on what works best for you.
FWIW
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I prefer to record in dry.
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i record drums with just a touch of hardware compression. why? iba kasi yung effect ng compresson na minus -4db sa isang pasada compared to -2 db twice. that's one reason. so konting compression during the tracking stage, then konting compression via plugs during mixing. i also wanna use the good hardware comps in the studio if i know i wont do outboard processing during the mixing stage.
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Both ways. No set rules. Whether plug in or hardware, it really depends on what works best for you.
FWIW
+10
I prefer to record in dry.
likewise.
I record all the tracks dry and fiddle with VST plugins later. :-D
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Dati we used outboard comp/limiter on snare and kick kasi it overloads the preamp stage. Ngayon sa bagong set-up for some reason, it doesn't happen anymore. So my outboard is gathering dust. But I'll resucitate it once I get a surplus line mixer. Para di naman maubos ang inputs ko para lang sa outboard returns.
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it depends on the drummer. kung medyo aggresive yung player at masyado ang dynamics..i use a hardware compressor, kung magaling at even yung palo then i just use limiting.. then plugins na compressor sa mixing stage. also it depends sa hinihingi ng song..kung kailangan yung maraming compression for effects .... so like what the Master and Guru Mike P says... no set rules..
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Before you find answers, ask yourself...
1. What music do you play?
2. What drum sound is needed for the type of music?
3. How loud does your drummer hit?
IMO, I prefer using soft-knee hardware compressors for overheads, ambient and room mics. It fattens the sound a lot. For close-mics, it really depends. Some types of music like 60s rock and modern jazz don't need compression (and gating) for the close mics. For louder music, close-mics definitely need hard knee compression.
I also noticed that tuning drums too tight don't really work well with high compression settings. Ultra-muffled and thuddy drums benefit pretty well from short-transient, fast attack compression.
*MGA SAKIT NG ULO NG ENGINEER*:
Your drummer wants to get those huge tom sounds, but his cymbals are almost on the same level as the toms. He wants fast-attack + gating for the toms and the snare, while he bangs the open hats very loudly. He gives you a Deftones reference drum sound, but he doesn't want any form of triggering or drum replacement. :D
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*MGA SAKIT NG ULO NG ENGINEER*:
Your drummer wants to get those huge tom sounds, but his cymbals are almost on the same level as the toms. He wants fast-attack + gating for the toms and the snare, while he bangs the open hats very loudly. He gives you a Deftones reference drum sound, but he doesn't want any form of triggering or drum replacement. :D
Ganun ba ? E di don't tell him what you're doing. Pag nag-open ka ng Drumagog at sinabi "ano yan?" Sabihin mo ahhh...EQ modeller yan para lumapit sa sound na gusto mo...yang mga drumkits na yan mga EQ presets yan. Mwahahahaha.
Thank God for Drumagog.
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Before you find answers, ask yourself...
1. What music do you play?
2. What drum sound is needed for the type of music?
3. How loud does your drummer hit?
IMO, I prefer using soft-knee hardware compressors for overheads, ambient and room mics. It fattens the sound a lot. For close-mics, it really depends. Some types of music like 60s rock and modern jazz don't need compression (and gating) for the close mics. For louder music, close-mics definitely need hard knee compression.
I also noticed that tuning drums too tight don't really work well with high compression settings. Ultra-muffled and thuddy drums benefit pretty well from short-transient, fast attack compression.
*MGA SAKIT NG ULO NG ENGINEER*:
Your drummer wants to get those huge tom sounds, but his cymbals are almost on the same level as the toms. He wants fast-attack + gating for the toms and the snare, while he bangs the open hats very loudly. He gives you a Deftones reference drum sound, but he doesn't want any form of triggering or drum replacement. :D
yep, i agree. the genre and type of playing will very much dictate how much compression (if any at all) is applied.
about the dilemma you mentioned, it is very true that a drummer's dynamics and tehcnique help big time in creating the desired finished product. sometimes a compromise has to be reached, like "baka pwede natin itaas ng konti yung cymbals from the toms, or angat natin ng konti yung hats kasi malakas ang bleed sa snare mic". kung kinakailangan or if it's any help at all you can make a small gobo type thing to separate the hat and snare mics. i found this on the net
Take a mic pop filter, cover it with a knit ski cap, clip it
to the hihat stand and position it between the snare
& the hats. Wool not being particularly resonant; no
unwanted reflections.
anything is worth trying. you may ask the drummer to sample each cymbal and snare after the song has been recorded, and layer that sample so you don't have to raise the overheads too much if the track is problematic. it is still best to make the drummer understand the nuances of recording, what can and cannot be done. i heard once that dave grohl was made to record the drums without hats or cymbals. and then these elements were recorded afterward, because from the get go, they knew they were going to compress the drums big time, or needed the isolation for some other reason.
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Ganun ba ? E di don't tell him what you're doing. Pag nag-open ka ng Drumagog at sinabi "ano yan?" Sabihin mo ahhh...EQ modeller yan para lumapit sa sound na gusto mo...yang mga drumkits na yan mga EQ presets yan. Mwahahahaha.
Thank God for Drumagog.
LOL, you can even get the samples via sound check as we do ask drummers to hit each drum while tweaking the knobs ;) just press the record button to get your multi sampled snare. lol.
i still think it is best to make the drummer understand how we do things :)
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Speaking of Drumagog, how do you make your own multisamples for snare hits? I believe you can do some groupings (i.e. loud, soft, center, a bit off center). I am not really used to replacing sounds as I feel it can kill the natural feel of the drummer when abused.
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LOL, you can even get the samples via sound check as we do ask drummers to hit each drum while tweaking the knobs ;) just press the record button to get your multi sampled snare. lol.
i still think it is best to make the drummer understand how we do things :)
I often do that (test tracks op cors) but I find it rare to go back to the sound check recordings unless I have huge problems with bleed (or if I fck up with too much clipping :D). Actually this is a very powerful technique as used and abused in most metal and mainstream music.
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Speaking of Drumagog, how do you make your own multisamples for snare hits? I believe you can do some groupings (i.e. loud, soft, center, a bit off center). I am not really used to replacing sounds as I feel it can kill the natural feel of the drummer when abused.
it does take away something very integral to the sound of an entire kit ... that organic element that makes us feel like the drum set is indeed a single instrument. but then if you sample the same drums for isolation purposes (as in the case of too much hats bleeding through the snare mic) maybe it wont be that obvious. second, sampling is a godsend for badly recorded drums. just replacing a badly recorded snare does wonders to a song :)
i think drumagog has a feature where in you can load mutisamples and save the set as a single gog file. then you can set the amplitude at which a certain sample is triggered.
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LOL, you can even get the samples via sound check as we do ask drummers to hit each drum while tweaking the knobs ;) just press the record button to get your multi sampled snare. lol.
i still think it is best to make the drummer understand how we do things :)
E pano kung gusto nyang sound eh Slingerland, tapos Pearl lang ang drums mo ? Tapos wag ka daw gagamit ng triggering/replacement? Pano na ? Hehehe. Jok lang syempre transparency is always the best.
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E pano kung gusto nyang sound eh Slingerland, tapos Pearl lang ang drums mo ? Tapos wag ka daw gagamit ng triggering/replacement? Pano na ? Hehehe. Jok lang syempre transparency is always the best.
RENT.
lol.
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E pano kung gusto nyang sound eh Slingerland, tapos Pearl lang ang drums mo ? Tapos wag ka daw gagamit ng triggering/replacement? Pano na ? Hehehe. Jok lang syempre transparency is always the best.
...or if the drummer wants the Mayhem/Lamb of God "Tigidik" kick drum sound??? ...while having a very open sounding overhead sound?? Hahaha!
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sir.. do you always compromise a drummer for changing his drum set-up to arrive at a desired sound?
y
about the dilemma you mentioned, it is very true that a drummer's dynamics and tehcnique help big time in creating the desired finished product. sometimes a compromise has to be reached, like "baka pwede natin itaas ng konti yung cymbals from the toms, or angat natin ng konti yung hats kasi malakas ang bleed sa snare mic". kung kinakailangan or if it's any help at all you can make a small gobo type thing to separate the hat and snare mics. i found this on the net
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sir.. do you always compromise a drummer for changing his drum set-up to arrive at a desired sound?
ALWAYS? no. im glad that i usually work with seasoned drummers who have great technique so balanse yung tunog. in adition, hindi rin mahirap pakiusapan yung pro's if we find something wrong with their set up (e.g. one cymbal is too loud compared to everything else). madali nilang naiintindihan ang nuances ng recording ... well probably because they have been in the business for so long din.
know that we normally wait for the drummer to set up the height and position of the throne, toms, snare, hats and cymbals before we mic them, and if, during soundcheck we find something anomalous, only then do we adjust, first and formost, the position of the mic. that is usually enough. what skunkyfunk was talking about is an extreme case which doesn't happen too often in my experience.
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This is where you get to differentiate the artists who are pros and those who are still in baby bottles :)
ALWAYS? no. im glad that i usually work with seasoned drummers who have great technique so balanse yung tunog. in adition, hindi rin mahirap pakiusapan yung pro's if we find something wrong with their set up (e.g. one cymbal is too loud compared to everything else). madali nilang naiintindihan ang nuances ng recording ... well probably because they have been in the business for so long din.
know that we normally wait for the drummer to set up the height and position of the throne, toms, snare, hats and cymbals before we mic them, and if, during soundcheck we find something anomalous, only then do we adjust, first and formost, the position of the mic. that is usually enough. what skunkyfunk was talking about is an extreme case which doesn't happen too often in my experience.
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Actually totoo nga yata na the big boys are more forgiving than the little boys. One very good example is Otep Concepcion. The guy is ultra-tight with the click track. As IN. Sarap mag multiple takes tapos dice and slice na lang ng wave forms for the best takes.
May ibang drummer, wala na nga sa tiyempo, sinisisi pa yung triggers. :D Yung iba naman isang oras ayusing ang drum throne para di raw mapolikat.
I now believe the reason why producers like drummers that play tight with the click. And those who know how to make the right fills.
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sir.. do you always compromise a drummer for changing his drum set-up to arrive at a desired sound?
y
about the dilemma you mentioned, it is very true that a drummer's dynamics and tehcnique help big time in creating the desired finished product. sometimes a compromise has to be reached, like "baka pwede natin itaas ng konti yung cymbals from the toms, or angat natin ng konti yung hats kasi malakas ang bleed sa snare mic". kung kinakailangan or if it's any help at all you can make a small gobo type thing to separate the hat and snare mics. i found this on the net
"Never sacrifice style <i.e. tone> for comfort."
"Never sacrifice comfort for style."
2 opposing views that make art a very nice subject.
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"Never sacrifice style <i.e. tone> for comfort."
"Never sacrifice comfort for style."
2 opposing views that make art a very nice subject.
hindi naman kailangan all or nothing. i believe a middle ground can be reached basta maayos ang usapan :)
kung sabihin sakin ng drummer na hindi sya comfortable revising his setup or technique, then that settles it. i will not push the idea any further. hanap nalang ako ng iba pang paraan.
minsan ka lang talaga makaka-encounter ng kliyenteng mahirap kausap. in such cases, as an engineer you have to spend more time with that person to understand where he is coming from. if you have to sit down and have a couple of beers with that person do so. when it comes to difficult clients, dalawa lang naman yan: it's either he is a virtuoso, or a noob. in both cases, there are times you have to put your foot down. most of the time though, it doesn't hurt to consider the other person's idea first. :)
btw, OT na tayo ;)
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hindi naman kailangan all or nothing. i believe a middle ground can be reached basta maayos ang usapan :)
kung sabihin sakin ng drummer na hindi sya comfortable revising his setup or technique, then that settles it. i will not push the idea any further. hanap nalang ako ng iba pang paraan.
minsan ka lang talaga makaka-encounter ng kliyenteng mahirap kausap. in such cases, as an engineer you have to spend more time with that person to understand where he is coming from. if you have to sit down and have a couple of beers with that person do so. when it comes to difficult clients, dalawa lang naman yan: it's either he is a virtuoso, or a noob. in both cases, there are times you have to put your foot down. most of the time though, it doesn't hurt to consider the other person's idea first. :)
btw, OT na tayo ;)
Hazel, I think most of my head butting experiences in the studio don't stem from tracking. It is from "Making their 2-bus mix louder..." :D Sorry OT din hehehe.
PS Nothing sucks more than working with a bad drummer who can't stay in time. Off-hits are ok. Tempo irregularities are not.
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Both ways. No set rules. Whether plug in or hardware, it really depends on what works best for you.
FWIW
+1
although I never track with plugins anymore.
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Hazel, I think most of my head butting experiences in the studio don't stem from tracking. It is from "Making their 2-bus mix louder..." :D Sorry OT din hehehe.
PS Nothing sucks more than working with a bad drummer who can't stay in time. Off-hits are ok. Tempo irregularities are not.
That's when you use the time-stretch function hehehe.
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That's when you use the time-stretch function hehehe.
Marvin bought Live 8 for that, but now he's happy with that function in Cubase 5. Much much better than their previous audiowarp.
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This is where you get to differentiate the artists who are pros and those who are still in baby bottles :)
this reminds me of a drummer who has been unhappy playing on my hybrid drum set.. i kept on telling him, he doesnt have to hit the kick pad hard to get a sound.. the effing kick pad was flying all over the place :x
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this reminds me of a drummer who has been unhappy playing on my hybrid drum set.. i kept on telling him, he doesnt have to hit the kick pad hard to get a sound.. the effing kick pad was flying all over the place :x
hahahaha deaf drummer!
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VST plugs during tracking? Maybe not. It adds latency. And the really good ones (the ones I think that deserve to be considered for tracking) adds latencies that are unacceptable, most especially for drum tracking. If you really have to put processing while tracking, I'd say use hardware.
I'd always put more importance on getting a great performance than superior audio. But that's just me. I break that rule when the artist starts breaking my equipment. At that point, he stops being a client... or even a welcome guest. Haha.
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"I'd always put more importance on getting a great performance than superior audio. But that's just me. I break that rule when the artist starts breaking my equipment. At that point, he stops being a client... or even a welcome guest. Haha"
Even worse, after you give comment they tell when you are not there that YOU are the one who is having an attitude, this happens mostly with the inexperienced "artists"
They should remember at all times that it is not their equipment they are only allowed to use it and should handle it with respect to the owner but mostly the "amateur" think they can destroy all for only a few peso an hour rent.
Only when you bring your OWN equipment you are allowed to destroy that.......... :-D
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For the record, artists, in general, are not always arrogant or controlling to the point of being a jackass in the studio. In fact I find Pinoy artists more timid than how artists should act. It's not like the engineer is gonna shoot you if you adjust the height of the drum throne; you just need to ask how... Or if they hear something 'wrong' in the mix, be open to say "Parang may mali..."
Some of my clients have encountered problems in the past with other studios from the get-go because they think "masungit masyado yung engineer..." Feel free to experiment and twiddle with most stuff that the studio has to offer. In most cases, equipment breaks because they are bound to break down. Just a few minutes ago, I blew my power tubes (again) in one of my amps. :cry: Haaaay.
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Skunkyfunk, you talk about artists, i talk about amateurs, that's not always the same.............. :-)
The more professional the less damage, correct?
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kasi dodj mag POD ka na lang :lol:
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" Just a few minutes ago, I blew my power tubes (again) in one of my amps. Haaaay. "
Thats not the same as dropping your guitars on the floor or keep drumming when the nylon tips are gone so your skins look like the surface of the moon after 2 minutes :-)
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Difficult clients. Yup, that's the thing that's always stopping me from having my studio rented out. At least, I'm the only difficult client my studio has to deal with. And I care about the equipment, so that ain't too bad. :-)
Most of the time, I don't mind having to deal with 'difficult engineers', for as long as I'm sure they're helping me get the sound I want. It's really the output that matters to me.
And when I talked about damage to equipment, I didn't mean normal wear and tear. For example, if you installed new drum heads, and after the recording session the head is dented, that ain't normal. The guy has poor technique, and I'll keep my ribbon mics farthest from him. Or if I let somebody use my synth, and afterwards my synth is missing a volume knob. That ain't normal. Not to legit musicians.
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Sir MarvinQ that's what i try to say also................
Anyway the discussion was about drum recording so lets stick to that but i like to admit that it's not funny when you see one of your overheads "flying around the studio because they hit it with an stick while it was placed at least 40 cm from the cymbals" :?
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For most of my drum recordings, I ask the drummer to put the cymbals as high up as they're comfortable with. I also ask him to get the toms farther apart than they normally would place them, but only if they're comfortable with it. I won't ever sacrifice getting a good performance. If they perform poorly, I make sure I'm not the reason. If that ain't possible, I make sure I'm not the only reason. Haha. :-)
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Sir Marvinq, ever thought about going in politics? :-D :-D :-D
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this reminds me of a drummer who has been unhappy playing on my hybrid drum set.. i kept on telling him, he doesnt have to hit the kick pad hard to get a sound.. the effing kick pad was flying all over the place :x
Not all drummers feel comfy with a drum pad. That's why. He's trying too hard trying to replicate the experience of playing a real kit. It's like the ability to play using in-ear monitors. It's an acquired skill. Engineers need to understand this as well. In this particular case, the drummer isn't totally to blame.
The important thing is to compromise when that is a possibility. If the drummer's bass drum's resonant head doesn't have a hole, then work with that as a given. They don't always appreciate a lecture on how making that hole will render better audio. If their technique isn't that refined, then put your more expensive mics in a safer place. Better yet, use SM57's even on your hats and overheads (that is, if their technique is terrifying you). Solve the audio compromises later on. You can even explain to the band why you had to spend an extra couple of hours solving the phasing issues. Haha. :-)
Politics? No. I'm very content with being the one criticizing, not the one being criticized. Besides, I don't have very good chances at getting elected. My family name isn't spell-friendly. Haha.
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Politics? No. I'm very content with being the one criticizing, not the one being criticized. Besides, I don't have very good chances at getting elected. My family name isn't spell-friendly. Haha.
And besides that, freudian slips can be VERY compromising. hehe :-D
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That can never be underestimated, my friend. You can never tell how it could cost you a victory in the Metropop. Haha.
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For the record, artists, in general, are not always arrogant or controlling to the point of being a jackass in the studio. In fact I find Pinoy artists more timid than how artists should act. It's not like the engineer is gonna shoot you if you adjust the height of the drum throne; you just need to ask how... Or if they hear something 'wrong' in the mix, be open to say "Parang may mali..."
Some of my clients have encountered problems in the past with other studios from the get-go because they think "masungit masyado yung engineer..." Feel free to experiment and twiddle with most stuff that the studio has to offer. In most cases, equipment breaks because they are bound to break down. Just a few minutes ago, I blew my power tubes (again) in one of my amps. :cry: Haaaay.
mate....pa check mo biasing....plus check the tubes for specs (using a tube tester)
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The important thing is to compromise when that is a possibility. If the drummer's bass drum's resonant head doesn't have a hole, then work with that as a given. They don't always appreciate a lecture on how making that hole will render better audio. If their technique isn't that refined, then put your more expensive mics in a safer place. Better yet, use SM57's even on your hats and overheads (that is, if their technique is terrifying you). Solve the audio compromises later on. You can even explain to the band why you had to spend an extra couple of hours solving the phasing issues. Haha. :-)
Keeping the guns away from the kids....:D...I like this post
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mate....pa check mo biasing....plus check the tubes for specs (using a tube tester)
I should have bought that tube bias king from the US a few months back. That can save me a lot of tech bills if I stock tubes in my cabinet.
BTT. When people break your stuff, chances are they hate you. I know someone who wrecked a new set of K Custom cymbals using his Promark sticks which were as thick as hotrods (pretty much like Vinnie Paul sig sticks) because the stage tech was so arrogant.
Another alternative is having choices. More cymbals to choose, less wear and tear. More heads to choose, less wear and tear. Damn I also buy wing nuts often because some drummers overtighten an already tight wing nut.
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I should have bought that tube bias king from the US a few months back. That can save me a lot of tech bills if I stock tubes in my cabinet.
BTT. When people break your stuff, chances are they hate you. I know someone who wrecked a new set of K Custom cymbals using his Promark sticks which were as thick as hotrods (pretty much like Vinnie Paul sig sticks) because the stage tech was so arrogant.
Another alternative is having choices. More cymbals to choose, less wear and tear. More heads to choose, less wear and tear. Damn I also buy wing nuts often because some drummers overtighten an already tight wing nut.
Actually, my experience has been different. I've seen drummers break stuff because of poor technique. You see and hear it anyway. You see it when they bring their own snares. Check the consistency of the wear and tear on the head itself. The closer it is to a small circle, the most consistent their technique. If the hits are all over the place, there's not a very good chance that they were intentional. That'd be the time to use your less expensive mics, drum heads and cymbals. And you MIGHT need drumagog.
I do have a number of cymbals, but I've developed a few favorites, and consequently, they've had a bigger share of the wear and tear. It's a bit fortunate that my studio is a personal project studio, and so for the most part I get to choose who gets to use it, so my encounters with drummers with less-than-desirable technique has been kept to a minimum. I've seen a lot of them in other studios though.
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That's why they invented Studio Musicians :? :wink:
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...and the concept of bringing your own stuff. :-)
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@ Skunkyfunk: Maybe you can contact this guy, he is very specialised in tube amps and can advice you why your tube's blow and probably has the solution, i know he is really good...........
http://www.drtube.com/
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Actually, my experience has been different. I've seen drummers break stuff because of poor technique. You see and hear it anyway. You see it when they bring their own snares. Check the consistency of the wear and tear on the head itself. The closer it is to a small circle, the most consistent their technique. If the hits are all over the place, there's not a very good chance that they were intentional. That'd be the time to use your less expensive mics, drum heads and cymbals. And you MIGHT need drumagog.
I do have a number of cymbals, but I've developed a few favorites, and consequently, they've had a bigger share of the wear and tear. It's a bit fortunate that my studio is a personal project studio, and so for the most part I get to choose who gets to use it, so my encounters with drummers with less-than-desirable technique has been kept to a minimum. I've seen a lot of them in other studios though.
hahaha....nakatambol lang eh drummer na...kaya when iggy de guzman (nepa-q mart) was still alive, he loved our group because we treated his gear as if it was our own....plus we got good discounts on his studio rental rates...our guitarist never even broke a string :mrgreen:
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What exactly do you mean by POOR TECHNIQUE?
IMHO, there is no such thing as ABSOLUTELY poor technique. I can only classify drummers into two types: (1) those who can stay in time; and (2) those who cannot stay in time.
Drum teachers, in general, teach how to economize your movements so you can do more rudiments in a free-flowing manner. So that is where your moeller technique and stick bouncing techniques come in. But I digress, not all types of music require a 'formalized' style of playing.
For example:
(http://fleshasiadaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/yam-concepcion-ursa-minor-pics-2-450x300.jpg)
Yam Concepcion of Ursaminor
VS.
http://playitstraight.multiply.com/video/item/33/bea_lao_for_mapex_drums
Bea Lao of Wally Gonzalez and King Antares
Two girl drummers. One has a very raw and garage-y style, while the other has a very schooled approach. Who would wreck a drum kit first? Yam can surely deliver the goods in the Seattle subpop influence style of playing, and her snare hits do not sound as consistent as Bea's ( but would I not allow Yam to record because her technique doesn't resemble a schooled one's? Yam is a loud hitter while Bea is very precise, and every note and accent is well-controlled.
For me, if there is a drummer I would not like to record, it is one who cannot make a fill to fit the counts on a 4-4 measure.
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Well, I don't know Yam, but I've seen Bea, and I've recorded her too. She's got good technique, and won't be killing any drum heads and cymbals before their time, unless she intends to.
Poor technique? Yung patusok yung palo. Yung hindi pinapatalbog yung stick sa balat. Yung iba-iba ang tunog nang hindi sinasadya. Boyet Aquino is also a loud drummer, but he's got good technique. If you listen closely, you will be able to hear poor technique, if you know how good technique sounds. There are genres that sound great with some degree of recklessness, but I prefer the controlled kind. How do you know which is which? The controlled kind is intentional. It can't be called intentional if all the drummer knows is to be reckless. It's like performing an 'out' note or phrase. The same phrase, in the hands of a mature musician, will sound so much more intentional than the one who played it by mistake (which is of course, unintentional; that's why it's a mistake), or somebody who played it without conviction.
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Singit ako sandali. Prefer ko din i-record yung may technique at may control. Lalo na sa blues, funk and R&B very important ang technique. Lalo na sa metal, kailangan ng technique. Hate ko yung mga nagb-blast beat tapos ako ang mag-a-ayos ng blast beat nila, hehehe. Pag may technique kahit mahina pumalo, busog ang tunog. Pag walang technique, kahit malakas pumalo manipis pa din at walang groove. Kahit parang metronome pa sya kung mag keep time kung walang groove hwag na din lang. that's just me naman. good night! :mrgreen:
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I prefer not-so-loud hitters too. It helps capture the sound of the shell. Can't crank up the gain of my preamps with loud hitters. Most of the time I have to engage the pad. Drummers with great technique can lower their volume without sacrificing the groove. A drummer would be a b*tch to record if all he had was speed and loudness (and 2 levels of dynamics - loud and louder).
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Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to share my comments. Being a drummer and an engineer I have a slighty different perspective. My viewpoint is as an engineer, just do everything I can to record the drummer no matter how he plays, or what equipment his is using, WITHOUT changing his technique or modifying his physical setup. Why? I get better recordings from musicians that are COMFORTABLE.
I will give you an example. I did the drum engineering on the album "Time Crunch" for the group Niacin with Dennis Chambers and Billy Sheehan. Dennis has a certain attack volume on the drums, and he is very consistant with this level. While doing the setup, I noticed that I wasn't getting the tone out of the drums I was looking for. Now Dennis uses his Pearl Masters Custom kit (at that time) and Evans drum heads. Asking Dennis to hit harder, or softer, was not an option (if you know what I mean?), so what I did was, I called a product rep at Remo and told him to send over a complete set of Remo White Coated Ambassador drum heads, and pleaded with Dennis just to TRY them, until he relented. Now of course, we couldn't tell the Evans guys, and I had to tell the Remo guy that I was trying to convert Dennis to using their product, (which I wasn't, as he had a bad experience with Remo when he was an up and coming drummer, and vowed NEVER to use them). Anyway, we replaced the heads and "VOILA", we were good to go, and IMHO the drums sounded great on that recording.
Mics used: Sennheiser md-421's toms and kick
Shure SM-57 snare, didn't mic the bottom
Neumann U-87's overhead room mics
Shure SM-81's direct overheads
additional Beyer M-88 on the kick
Console: Trident 80-B
Pro Tools rig for tracking
Then transferred the audio to a Studer 24 track 2' tape deck for that analogue smoothness
One note, I pre-EQ'ed the drum mix, ON INPUT, since I was their live sound engineer I knew the sound they were looking for, and didn't want to chance the other engineer altering the sound of the drums. At final mixdown, I have to admit, the drums sounded a bit strange when solo'ed, but within the mix, AMAZING.
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Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to share my comments. Being a drummer and an engineer I have a slighty different perspective. My viewpoint is as an engineer, just do everything I can to record the drummer no matter how he plays, or what equipment his is using, WITHOUT changing his technique or modifying his physical setup. Why? I get better recordings from musicians that are COMFORTABLE.
I will give you an example. I did the drum engineering on the album "Time Crunch" for the group Niacin with Dennis Chambers and Billy Sheehan. Dennis has a certain attack volume on the drums, and he is very consistant with this level. While doing the setup, I noticed that I wasn't getting the tone out of the drums I was looking for. Now Dennis uses his Pearl Masters Custom kit (at that time) and Evans drum heads. Asking Dennis to hit harder, or softer, was not an option (if you know what I mean?), so what I did was, I called a product rep at Remo and told him to send over a complete set of Remo White Coated Ambassador drum heads, and pleaded with Dennis just to TRY them, until he relented. Now of course, we couldn't tell the Evans guys, and I had to tell the Remo guy that I was trying to convert Dennis to using their product, (which I wasn't, as he had a bad experience with Remo when he was an up and coming drummer, and vowed NEVER to use them). Anyway, we replaced the heads and "VOILA", we were good to go, and IMHO the drums sounded great on that recording.
Mics used: Sennheiser md-421's toms and kick
Shure SM-57 snare, didn't mic the bottom
Neumann U-87's overhead room mics
Shure SM-81's direct overheads
additional Beyer M-88 on the kick
Console: Trident 80-B
Pro Tools rig for tracking
Then transferred the audio to a Studer 24 track 2' tape deck for that analogue smoothness
One note, I pre-EQ'ed the drum mix, ON INPUT, since I was their live sound engineer I knew the sound they were looking for, and didn't want to chance the other engineer altering the sound of the drums. At final mixdown, I have to admit, the drums sounded a bit strange when solo'ed, but within the mix, AMAZING.
Thanks for sharing man, I love those NIACIN releases though I wish a lot of times that Billy would just play bass guitar. :wink:
Dennis Chambers, wow, would be a dream to record him.
My only comment about the experience you shared is that while you did not ask Dennis to change his style/technique, you did ask him to change his heads. For a lot of pros, equipment is part of their technique.
Anyway, the lesson of the story is to not stop to get the sound, right? Including printing the EQ so engineers down the line can't mess with yer tracks. Cool!
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Agreed about Billy. When on tour with Mr Big, you wouldn't believe what I had to do EQ wise to get some low end in the mix. Nine bass guitar inputs total. Anyway, in the drum heads case with Dennis, I knew it wasn't a matter of him not liking the Remo heads, I knew it was more of a political issue, so I just let him hear some playback with the Evans, then the Remos. If he would not have agreed with me, we would have gone ahead with the Evans, as he knows what he wants to hear. The pre-EQ'ing thing, while controversal, worked out in the end, as I believe it was his best drum sound of the Niacin recordings, if I do say so myself (wow, humble ha?). I am so lucky to have had a career as both a drummer, and tour manager/sound engineer. I have worked with the most amazing artists, and learned so much, while GETTING PAID to be there. Too bad I'm so old now, (nearly 55), I would love to be playing/touring again...
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Too bad I'm so old now, (nearly 55), I would love to be playing/touring again...
Aw, c'mon. 55 is like being 25, especially if you're in AC. :mrgreen:
Any more high end goodies you're hiding there?
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LOL, nope, not hiding anything, but to be honest, I wish I had some of those drumsets, and audio equipment I sold, back with me now. I swear the only high end kits I can find are abroad and you know how it is getting them thru customs...? Are you going to the demo of the NS-10 sound alikes this week?
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dry
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Sorry if OT ito...
I have a laptop, shure 7pc drum mic complete with cables and a 12 channel USB powered mixer. Are these gadgets enough to start home recording? What set-up is simple yet effective? What software is the simple yet best to use? Thanks in advance. :mrgreen:
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Sorry if OT ito...
I have a laptop, shure 7pc drum mic complete with cables and a 12 channel USB powered mixer. Are these gadgets enough to start home recording? What set-up is simple yet effective? What software is the simple yet best to use? Thanks in advance. :mrgreen:
Most usb mixers only output a stereo submix, unless it is a usb 2.0 capable mixer. If you're with recording a stereo mix only, then you're golden, but with drum miking, you would prefer a usb mixer capable of multitrack output. Firewire mixers are usually capable of multitracking, but these seem to be rare nowadays.
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Most usb mixers only output a stereo submix, unless it is a usb 2.0 capable mixer. If you're with recording a stereo mix only, then you're golden, but with drum miking, you would prefer a usb mixer capable of multitrack output. Firewire mixers are usually capable of multitracking, but these seem to be rare nowadays.
Thanks for the reply. I need to check on the specs of the mixer. However, I plan to use a VHS recorder instead for recording via RCA jack output. Although, the PC is still an option. What software is easy to use yet effective?
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" Pag may technique kahit mahina pumalo, busog ang tunog. " - Peter Erskin...
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Thanks for the reply. I need to check on the specs of the mixer. However, I plan to use a VHS recorder instead for recording via RCA jack output. Although, the PC is still an option. What software is easy to use yet effective?
VHS? Interesting. I've read about this a long, long time ago and it was quite viable for hifi systems then.
As for software, try Audacity. It's freeware and no-nonsense, but you might find it just a bit lacking when it comes to some serious editing and audio manipulation tools. If the audio is stereo only, you can use common editors such as Soundforge, Cool Edite/Adobe Audition, or Wavelab, I particularly like Wavelab because of it's audio montage feature which serves me very well for audio post.
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VHS? Interesting. I've read about this a long, long time ago and it was quite viable for hifi systems then.
As for software, try Audacity. It's freeware and no-nonsense, but you might find it just a bit lacking when it comes to some serious editing and audio manipulation tools. If the audio is stereo only, you can use common editors such as Soundforge, Cool Edite/Adobe Audition, or Wavelab, I particularly like Wavelab because of it's audio montage feature which serves me very well for audio post.
Yeah... my uncle who works in the US as a r&d head of a sound gadget company said that its equivalent to digital. Do you mind sharing any links as for the sample mix of these sound tools? thanks
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Well, I can remember before the days of the DAT, I saw in Cinema Audio a PCM encoder/decoder, and it was connected to a VHS player/recorder.
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Well, I can remember before the days of the DAT, I saw in Cinema Audio a PCM encoder/decoder, and it was connected to a VHS player/recorder.
VHS player? is it like the ones in AMERASIAN? kasi when we recorded our album w/VIVA-V3 they were transfering some regine tracks from this massive/multiple vhs like player to protool.
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Those were probably ADATs.
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Yes, they are ADAT-XT's.
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Well, I can remember before the days of the DAT, I saw in Cinema Audio a PCM encoder/decoder, and it was connected to a VHS player/recorder.
i think i saw a VHS machine before na gawa ng Hitachi na me PCM encoder/decoder pero mahal noon kaya walang masyadong bumili..
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Yes, they are ADAT-XT's.
yes. i still have one here hehehe and its not just VHS... its S-VHS.
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Yes, it's S-VHS for the ADATs. It's VHS for the PCM encoder/decoder.
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OT na yata tayo eh... back to DRUM RECORDING.
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Well, you can use those for drum recording as well. Haha. ;-P
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Well, you can use those for drum recording as well. Haha. ;-P
yeah. anyway, im using my ADAT for ANALOG INPUT to DIGITAL OUT. Gives me another 8 input on the Layla.