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The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: balta on May 08, 2006, 12:26:18 AM
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i have pretty decent set-up now (12 channel mixer, condenser mics, ... and a laptop with only usb1). So ever since i just hook the out to the stock mic input of the laptop. So to make the soundquality of recording i need a soundcard and in my case (since i use a laptop) I need an external soundcard device
so which is better for me:
a) buy a second hand tascam us -224 to be plugged in my usb 1
(quesion would it be really slow and have latency problems?)
b) buy a firewire port to be insert in the laptops card input then buy a
firewire powered external soundcard
(question which one do you guys suggest??)
Please help!! I need your knowledge and opinions hehe
thanks!
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Go firewire. Choose an adapter that supports 6-pin so it can power your planned FW soundcard. The 4-pin jobs do not send power out. Also choose an adapter that uses the TI (Texas Instruments) chipset. These reportedly have very few compatibility problems with FW audio.
The Tascam is already getting long in the tooth. USB also has a higher cpu utilization rate than FW. You can also get a PCMCIA-to-PCI adapter so that you can use the FW port or any other PC card in your desktop.
The other alternative is to get a PCMCIA soundcard like the Emu, Echo, or Digigram VX Pocket, and get the PCI adapter for the ultimate in transportability between laptop and desktop.
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ummm,.....
Hope i understood it right`
the PCMCIA means the card thingy that u put in the card slot of the laptop right??
so u suggest that I should just go with the firewire. How much would it cost me for the firewire card for my laptop and the firewire soundcard?? And what firewire soundcard do you suggest?
because someone is selling me a tascam us 224 for 12k
would the firewire thing be cheaper ?? or if not would it still be more worth it??
"The Tascam is already getting long in the tooth" <--what does this exactly mean by the way?? hehe
"USB also has a higher cpu utilization rate than FW" <-- what does this mean also?? hehe (does this mean that usb sucks?)
do i really need the PCMCIA-to-PCI since i'll just be using it for laptop purposes??
sorry for all the questions
so much thanks so much thanks so much thanks
for the help man.
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ummm,.....
Hope i understood it right`
the PCMCIA means the card thingy that u put in the card slot of the laptop right??
They're also known as PC cards and yes, those are the cards you insert into the card slot - the laptop's version of pci cards with the added feature of being hot pluggable. Try THAT with a pci card (of course you won't do that, you can destroy your mobo that way).
so u suggest that I should just go with the firewire. How much would it cost me for the firewire card for my laptop and the firewire soundcard?? And what firewire soundcard do you suggest?
Firewire PCMCIA usually begins at $50 going up to $75. You want a card that supports 6 pin power pass thru like this (http://industrialcomponent.com/vigor/fb5503.html) because portable FW devices sometimes get their power from the FW bus/cable. Other PC card FW adapters do not have power pass thru. Another consideration is the adapter's chipset. It's recommended to use TI chipsets because these are known to work well with FW audio.
because someone is selling me a tascam us 224 for 12k
would the firewire thing be cheaper ?? or if not would it still be more worth it??
"The Tascam is already getting long in the tooth" <--what does this exactly mean by the way?? hehe
The US224 was developed in 2001/2002 and is a usb 1.1 device. Usb 1 has a max data bandwidth of 12 megabits per second, not bytes. If you're only doing stereo in/out with it, that's fine but you're asking the device to be a DAW controller and midi interface as well. This increases the chances of dropouts. 'Getting long in the tooth' basically means it is nearing obsolescence. Here (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Nov02/articles/tascamus224.asp) is an SoS article on the US224.
"USB also has a higher cpu utilization rate than FW" <-- what does this mean also?? hehe (does this mean that usb sucks?)
USB data is processed more by the cpu as compared to FW which offloads data processing from the cpu. That means if your laptop processor isn't fast enough, you will have data dropouts. USB 2.0 was developed to better compete with the FW spec, but the US224 is a usb 1.1 device.
do i really need the PCMCIA-to-PCI since i'll just be using it for laptop purposes??
This is recommended if you get a PCMCIA soundcard instead of a FW adapter. That way, you can use the same soundcard in your laptop and desktop. This can be important during editing because it's a lot easier to edit on a desktop as well as the fact for the same amount of money spent on a laptop, a desktop will be way more powerful. Btw, don't go even considering laptop recording if it is based on 'budget' processors like Celeron and Duron. The only exceptions are Celerons based on the Sonoma chipset.
Of course you can do the same thing with FW provided your desktop has FW ports.
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Just a warning... PCMCIA Firewire cards (even 6 pin ones) are NOT required to be powered. Only Macs have powered Firewire ports as standard. If you get one of those FW PC cards for your Wintel machine, you may still need to plug into the wall.
It will work... just be prepared to use a wall wart to power your interface.
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damn, this is so educational. You are a knowledge god KitC.
so in the end u suggest to just get a desktop then?
But as of now i only have my laptop for it. And im not really into ultra pro level recording. I just need something that is pretty good, efficient and beyond par sound quality. Plus i need something that makes the output of my sound better since I'll be bringing my laptop during gigs to use with my midi controller and ableton live.
I am convinced, and i will just get me a FW PCMCIA
So now what do you suggest I should get as a midi/FW interface??
jplacson <-- so even if i get a FW powering device a FW card wouldn't
power it?? Even lets say to charge an ipod??
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wait i think i now understood what you were suggesting earlier,
DO u suggest i go get the emu 1616M ?? since it has a firewire PCMCIA slot with it and a midi/recording interface
what do u guys think??
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Just a warning... PCMCIA Firewire cards (even 6 pin ones) are NOT required to be powered. Only Macs have powered Firewire ports as standard. If you get one of those FW PC cards for your Wintel machine, you may still need to plug into the wall.
It will work... just be prepared to use a wall wart to power your interface.
Yes, this is correct. That's why the recommendation was for a FW adapter that supports power pass thru. Be aware though that this will have an effect on battery charge life as the interface will be drawing power from the laptop. Ideally, you would want to power the FW breakout box separately.
Presonus has a very good FW interface in the Inspire 1394 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=241483). For a hundred bucks more, you get the Firebox (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=184133) which gives you 6 in/8 out. Both very good deals, IMO.
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I got to check out the firebox and the inspire but it doesn't include a firewire PCMCIA
so im thinking its either:
a) EMU 1616M (this includes a firewire PCMCIA) --> 500$
or
b) FIREBOX + a Vigor firewire 1394a PCMCIA --> 350$
i thinkk....
is the quality of the emu 1616M better than the firebox? If so is it enough to shell out 150$ more??
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I have an Emu 1820m and it's quality is astounding. It had some growing pains with the early drivers but things are alright now. It's not exactly a champion in the latency department, that belongs to RME. I'll be honest with you, though; more than a few have had problems understanding the Patchmix mixer software because it is radically different from what most are used to. You have to let go of certain paradigms when using the Emu. The Emu set of cards were meant for recording and too many approach it thinking it is similar to a 'blaster. It is NOT a gaming card and does not accept EAX environments. It is also not forgiving of a few computer configurations and certain laptops can have performance issues. Go to the link in my sig and do a search for compatible laptops. If you need more info on the Emu, don't be afraid to ask.
The Firewire option, IMO, is a safer bet for you. Try to research the FW adapter; better yet, surf the Presonus site for recommended FW adapters. The one problem I have with the Vigor is that it doesn't identify the chipset used. Ideally, you would want a FW adapter that does power pass thru but it is not important if the Firebox has a power adapter anyway.
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DO u suggest i go get the emu 1616M ?? since it has a firewire PCMCIA slot with it and a midi/recording interface
Just to clarify, the 1616m is not a Firewire card. It is a PCMCIA-based soundcard which is basically a pci soundcard reduced to the size of a PCMCIA card. It works at practically the same throughput as the pci bus, which is much faster than firewire and usb 2.0
Also, the 1616m does not do firewire. Which is why I suggested getting a PCMCIA-to-PCI adapter so that you can use the same soundcard between laptop and desktop.
With firewire soundcards, the external box is the soundcard. In the case of the Firebox, all logic circuits and A/D/A converters are located within the Firebox. The 1616, on the other hand, has it's logic circuits on the PCMCIA card while the A/D/A converters and probably DSP chip are located in the breakout box. The 'm' version of the 1616 uses the same converters usually found in Protools systems, but that's just marketing-speak.
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can't believe I am actually understanding all this. hahha
ok so a firebox plus a firewire card is better than an emu 1616M
this is actually a good thing since its 10,00 pesos cheaper
but the firebox has only 2 inputs so... i guess recording drums is out of the question with this one.
is there no reported failure for the firebox?? Does i get great reviews in comparison to the 1616M??
Is the firebox the best firewire interface that is less than 500 dollars??
thanks again sir KITC
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I was doing some research on the net and found this thing called a
MOTU ultralight
is it good?? u think this is better than those above since it has 10 inputs??
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but the firebox has only 2 inputs so... i guess recording drums is out of the question with this one.
is there no reported failure for the firebox?? Does i get great reviews in comparison to the 1616M??
Is the firebox the best firewire interface that is less than 500 dollars??
The Firebox actually has 4 analog inputs; 2 combo Neutriks on the front (XLR/1/4" line in) and 2 balanced 1/4" line ins at the back. It is among the best for the price. If you need more inputs, then the Firepod (10 in/out) is what you're looking for but it already costs $599!
The MOTU Ultralite has 8 analog ins and 8 analog outs at 24 bit/96 khz. It goes for $549.99 you can find more info on the Ultralite here (http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite/).
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ok i consulted a friend of mine and he said to invest on a desktop instead since my laptop is decent but not strong enough.
so now if i decide to just go with desktop pc what soundcard do u suggest i should i get??
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kitc ayos ba yung Delta 1010 ng M-Audio ?
http://www.audiomidi.com/Delta-1010-P527.aspx#
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kitc ayos ba yung Delta 1010 ng M-Audio ?
http://www.audiomidi.com/Delta-1010-P527.aspx#
@bugoy - highly recommended. very stable drivers and protools ready pa. what I like about M-Audio's drivers are that you can have multiple 1010's and they only use 1 irq. There was once a discussion about problems between M-audio and SATA but abyss hasn't had any probs with his system.
@balta - get a mobo with firewire onboard. I highly recommend the firebox/firepod or the ultralite. Focusrite is releasing a 26-input :shock: Saffire pero wala pang released MSRP.
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the 1010 is very stable and M-audio is always very good with their driver updates. my latency right now is at 3.24ms running cubase SX 3 and Nuendo 2.
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new discover with matching question!
: similar to the price range of the recording interfaces above are the fire wire mixers like
Phonic Helix Board 18 FireWire 18-Channel Mixer
Alesis MultiMix 8FIREWIRE 8-Channel Mixer with Firewire
does these mixer also act as a soundcard?? since it hooks up to the laptop or pc and it has more inputs and (correct me if i am wrong) also gives control which acts like a controller to the faders in the digital mixer of a recording program, is it a better option to a recording interface that has fewer inputs?
show me to the light guys haha
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does these mixer also act as a soundcard?? since it hooks up to the laptop or pc and it has more inputs
These are basically mixers with internal firewire interfaces to your pc. Similar in function to usb mixers but with more channel capability. The Phonic Helix shares a troublesome trait with the Mackie Onyx FW mixers, i.e., The tap going to the FW interface is located after the trim pot but before the eq. Onyx owners complained that they wanted Mackie's 'British eq' to be part of the recording chain but the Onyx could not allow you to change the tap point. The Phonic shares this trait.
The Alesis, on the other hand, has it's tap point after the eq but before the aux sends. This may or may not break the deal since Alesis isn't particularly known for it's eq. Alesis also has a max sample rate of 48 kHz compared to Phonic's 96 kHz.
and (correct me if i am wrong) also gives control which acts like a controller to the faders in the digital mixer of a recording program,
No controller function with these mixers, sorry. If you want sliding fader automation, the Behringer BCF-2000 is the cheapest option, though it is only a DAW controller, not an audio interface.
is it a better option to a recording interface that has fewer inputs?
Chances are, the converters on these mixers pale in comparison to a dedicated FW soundcard.
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Well, M-Audio has their ProjectMix... something I'd like to have for a portable rig! :)
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ok.. discovery failed... huhu
ow yea is the difference of latency with a firewire based interface to a card one have a big significant difference?
As for now i think will go with the firebox since
I really don't need that many inputs for drums
since i am just using it primarily for solo
electronic work.
Someone stop me now if i should decide otherwise hehe
Ow yea! how do i pay something i ordered from a site like musiciansfriend?
My relatives from the states are going here in 2 weeks if i orderd it and delivered it to their address would it get ther in time??
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Well, M-Audio has their ProjectMix... something I'd like to have for a portable rig! :)
Has anyone done a shootout with these FW interfaces/controllers yet (M-Audio Project Mix/Tascam 1884/Digi 002)? I've read individual reviews but no A/B comparison between converters.
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balta, check on Amazon.com... Musician's Friend won't accept Phil issued credit cards but Amazon does. Amazon's music partner is Musician's Friend, so most of the stuff on MF is in Amazon.
KitC, not that I know of. The Digi002 is more expensive though and only has 4 pres. That may mean it's better... but then again, unless someone does an A/B... I can only guess.
Both the Project Mix and Digi002 run Protools (the project mix can use any SW as well if you run on Windows)
The Digi002 can be used as a stand alone live mixer.
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KitC, not that I know of. The Digi002 is more expensive though and only has 4 pres. That may mean it's better... but then again, unless someone does an A/B... I can only guess.
Both the Project Mix and Digi002 run Protools (the project mix can use any SW as well if you run on Windows)
The Digi002 can be used as a stand alone live mixer.
Yeah, I'm quite aware of their individual capabilities and specs. I'm just surprised that no one's done a shootout yet although my gut feel is that we'll be seeing one soon because of Project Mix. Aside from the converters, MCU emulation would be tops among my requirements for compatibility with the DAW software I'm using.
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waw how i wish i could afford that the projectmix i mean. Just to come up with the money for an interface is so hard already ...
I have a great dilema.... (I'll try to post pics of my setup soon)
the specs of my laptop are the following:
* Pentium 4-M
* 2.4 GHz
400 MHz (mainboard data bus speed)
512 MB ram
30 GB plus 20 GB from the external
you think my laptop is enough to for a stable DAW setup? (my friend suggest to upgrade and add more ram)
because if so i will invest on a firebox
(keep in mind i plan to bring my laptop setup to gigs so portability and soundquality is really important)
If not or not worth it , I'll just try to supe up this desktop computer here thats hardly being used (since its easier to upgrade a desktop over a laptop). So i guess I also have to upgrade the stuff there.
If i go with this track i'll probably try to get an Emu 1820M or since i wil disregard portability a delta 1010
so do i go with my laptop and i assume spending less
or
go with a desktop setup?
appreciate the help guys !!
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sorry pahabol .. about the ordering can i use this www.philpay.com since i dont have a creditcard account ? Is it better? or should i just find a friend who has an account?
sorry .. i have never ordered from the net before hehe
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balta, with regards to your laptop specs... yes more RAM is better. but the 2 key things to consider are:
1) laptop HDDs are slower... even those with the same rpm as their desktop counterparts.
2) your laptop (or even desktop) is only as good as your software stability. you can have 100GB RAM and 100TB of HDD space... but if you have a crappy WinXP install, then you're screwed. You need to do a clean install with the bare minimum number of drivers (always use the latest ones). Some laptops are finicky about the sequence of driver installs... some prefer audio drivers first, others prefer video card drivers first. It's a trial and error process.
That said. If all you intend to do is 2-channel recording, then your laptop is fine. But if you intend to do more than 2... then it gets a bit messy. External FW HDD... RAM... and most important... keep it a DEDICATED machine. Try not to surf on it often since that really causes a lot of problems.
the Projectmix would choke any laptop out there without an external FW HDD. 1GB of RAM should be the minimum to consider for your sw to run comfortably. You can scrape by with 512 or 768... but this will make post prod processing take really long. But it can handle 2 channel recording.
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thanks so much sir for the clean and helpful advice! galing
so u think i should still pursue my laptop? (if i get to buy the ram my laptop will get 900+ ram will that be enough?)
yup my laptop is dedicated only for music production it doesnt get online much.
so i should reinstall the windows xp? Im not really an expert on this should i ask an expert to help me out or is this something i could do on my own?
a friend suggested this http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Ozonic-main.html
a m-audio ozonic
since he says i'll be using my laptop for live .
what do u pro's think?
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What exactly will you be using the laptop for?
If you will just be tracking, do you intend to record more than 2 tracks? A usb 1.1 audio interface will not cut it if you intend to track more than stereo in/stereo out. Either get a usb 2.0 audio interface, firewire, or a pcmcia soundcard.
John is right about HD speeds. You need a fast HD if you intend to multitrack or stream a LOT of samples from HD. Additional ram is only important if you are using ram-based samplers or romplers that load to ram.
The Ozonic is a usb 1.1 audio interface/midi controller. If you intend to use your laptop as a synth, it better have a really fast cpu, and if you're streaming samples, a 7200 rpm HD and lots of ram. Softsynths and samplers are not for the faint of (giga)hertz - I have brought a 1.8 gHz machine to its knees just playing 4 notes on a sampler. (Then again, those were very PHAT notes).
Have a go at musicxp.net on how to optimize WinXP for music.
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i think you'd need at least 1.5gb of ram, and an external hd. plus you'd feel so much better knowing that you still have plenty of space hehe :)
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thanks so much guys. I'll post again later i'll research more and check up on the specs of my pc
think you'd need at least 1.5gb of ram, and an external hd. plus you'd feel so much better knowing that you still have plenty of space hehe
is 1 gig of ram enough? since i am adding ram to my laptop which would cost me 2,500+ pesos. i have a 20 gig external gig . But isnt it slow to use the external for recording stuff??
I'll be using the laptop for recording solo stuff so i guess no drums xo 2 inputs should be ok...
I need it also for live purposes because i will use the laptop for ableton live and reason for sampling.
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As Kit said, RAM is only important for apps that use RAM based samples. For recording, it's your HDD speed/bus that matter. For straight forward tracking, even 512MB won't be choking... but your HDD will. The difference of 1GB and 2GB for tracking... mildly noticable... if you have spare cash..go ahead. But you're better off spending it somewhere else for now.
Spend on a 3.5" Firewire HDD. A 2.5" FW drive is just slightly faster than a 2.5" UBB 2.0, so don't bother with a 2.5" FW.
Remember that sampling/midi based computer music has different requirements than a multi-track/recording computer.
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wat is a decent HDD speed? I'll try to post the specs of my laptop's HDD when i get home. Hope it has enough power
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5400 is the minimum you should be running. 4800rpm laptop drives will choke... specially if they're almost full.
For externals, almost all 3.5" drives now are at least 7200rpm. Get a Lacie if you can, the D3 line it has all the connections.. USB, FW, FW800. Capacity all the way up to 500GB last I checked.
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Seagate makes Momentus drives that run at 5400; they also have a Momentus that's rated at 7200 but I haven't seen any locally available and for the same amount of money you pay for a 200 gig 3.5" HD, you usually get 60-80 gigs for laptops. Hitachi makes a 7200 mobile HD (7K100 - 60 gig), some are available locally (maybe at pcevotech.com) although I haven't been able to verify this.
An alternative is to get an external USB 2.0/FW HD enclosure that can accept standard IDE/SATA 7200 rpm 3.5" drives - make sure you have the right ports on your laptop. No Lacie's available locally, I'm afraid. You will also have to factor in a UPS because you don't want power to die while writing to an external HD.
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Kit, Lacie's are available locally... our office buys them for our Macs. I think we get from Sencolink. We have 5 D3s for back-up
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Kit, Lacie's are available locally... our office buys them for our Macs. I think we get from Sencolink. We have 5 D3s for back-up
Kewl! My bad... I avoid mac stores like the plague ever since Jobs pulled the plug on clones.
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i just checked it my harddrive is 5400rpm . is this is this ok?
So portable hardrives like the FW you mentioned is faster than a normal hardrive thats already in the pc?? Isn't it slower since it uses FW or USB as a connection??
I have a portable hardrive and it is kinda slow i mean compared to accessing the stock hardrive of cpu's
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These are basically mixers with internal firewire interfaces to your pc. Similar in function to usb mixers but with more channel capability. The Phonic Helix shares a troublesome trait with the Mackie Onyx FW mixers, i.e., The tap going to the FW interface is located after the trim pot but before the eq. Onyx owners complained that they wanted Mackie's 'British eq' to be part of the recording chain but the Onyx could not allow you to change the tap point. The Phonic shares this trait.
Are there any user review of Phonic Helix FW here in this forum? I am considering to buy one soon for home recording and gig.
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Does anybody knows which website I can find review of this Phonic Helixboard FW? I been searching the net for a while but no much review I can find.
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Actual user reviews can be found here (http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/forum.php?action=view_thread&id=9703&frm=2).
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Kit, thank you for the link, I think I remember reading this forum before but was not convincing. The negative comments was from the guy that haven't use this board however good comments from the user which is to well verse with Phonic, like a Phonic S...hmmm :?
Anyway, I'll keep searching and pretty soon I will decide which system I have to use.