TALK @ PhilMusic.com - The Online Home of the Pinoy Musician
The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: skunkyfunk on June 17, 2006, 11:51:46 AM
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Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds. Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song. Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:
-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?
Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...
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Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds. Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song. Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:
-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?
Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...
pansin ko nga eh.. maybe the budget?.. gamit, sometimes?.. pati sa music vids.. :D
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i happen to think there are lots of good local mixes out there. nagkakaproblema lang naman when we compare our stuff to "foreign" mixes. napansin ko, most of our stuff sound "blanketed" compared to foreign stuff. the area that seems most "blanketed" are the drums, especially the snare, chaka yung vocals. notice how the snare sets the quality of the entire mix? dun palang sa unang crack ng snare alam na natin kung local or foreign. sa vocals naman, we still haven't achieved that super 3D sound found in foreign mixes.
however, i can see that we're almost there. konti nalang talaga. i think we should all keep trying to improve our skills and keep sharing what we know.
:)
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Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds. Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song. Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:
-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?
for me, gamit, skills at budget na rin. . . lahat factor
sa gamit at budget, para sakin na hobby (pa lang :wink: ) ang recording, hindi ko kaya maka kuha ng magagandang equipments para sa isang maayos na recording studio. . . i end up using old equipments na "hindi" naman talaga pang recording, but for me, it gets the job done, at least, kahit papano, medyo maayos naman gawa ko :lol:
sa skills, i still consider my self a beginner, self taught, sa experience lang nag gain ng knowledge. . . so kulang pa (ako :oops: )
Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...
para sakin ( and i mean, sakin lang ha, ewan ko lang kung mag agree iba) yung mga nabangit, "make recording sound so pinoy" and i dont look at it as negative, well theres room for improvements and dito sa ganitong situation lalabas ang pag ka malikhain natin, which is very pinoy :wink:
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for me, it's definitely not the equipment.
not the skills. a lot of filipino musicians can kick major ass.
masyado lang nating ginagaya sila. that's a game we only have a very slim chance of winning. halos imposible.
we can never be more western-sounding than the westerners. kadalasan kung hindi man palagi, parang iniiwasan nating magtunog-pinoy, na parang masamang bagay ito.
hindi mali ang magtunog banyaga tayo. pero hindi yun dapat ang inaasinta natin.
hindi lang iilan ang mga banyagang nagsabi sa akin na magagaling ang musikong pinoy. at hindi sila nagsisinungaling.
good music will always be made regardless of budget. kahit pa dumating yung panahong wala nang budget sa musika, meron at meron pa ring malilikhang magandang musika.
so it's also not about the budget.
maraming nagtatanong sa akin kung bakit parang mas magaganda yung musika natin noon. para sa akin, marami pa ring gumagawa ng magandang mga musika ngayon, pero parang alam ko rin yung ibig nilang sabihin. ang sagot ko sa kanila, siguro kasi noong mga panahong iyon, napakahirap talagang mabuhay kung musiko ka lang. kaya ang mga natitira lang doon sa industriya yung mga tunay na nagmamahal sa sining nila. kahit walang pera, tuloy pa rin ang paglikha. sa ganoong sitwasyon, walang kompromiso, at punung-puno ng integridad.
hindi ko rin sinasabing masama ang kompromiso.
ang nakakapahamak sa atin yung kokompromiso tayo sa mga prisipyo natin bilang musiko para lang hindi mawalan ng gig, o para kuhanin ulit ng kliyente. hindi rin masama ang sundin ang mga pinapagawa nila, wag lang sana sa puntong nababaluktot na ang prinsipyo.
sabi ng ilan sa mga kaibigan ko, ang tawag nila dito, pagpuputa...
marami pa ring henyo sa paligid natin. lalung lalo na sa musika. hindi nga lang lahat sa kanila nabibigyan ng sapat na pagkakataong madinig.
marami sa kanila, kahit kailan, hindi na makakapagtanghal sa araneta, sa music museum o sa folk arts...
mamamatay na lang sila, mananatiling bingi pa rin tayo sa pagkahenyo nila...
kasi hindi sila tunog kano....
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it's the premise that foreign music is superior that makes pinoy music inferior.
maririnig natin yan sa mga sarili nating mga tanong.
what makes our recordings so pinoy?....
do our recordings really need improvement, just because they sound pinoy? like it's a bad thing?
inferior equipment was one of the factors that got started that entire hiphop revolution. it's now one of the biggest selling genres in music.
that was an entire culture that refused to ask the question - what's wrong with our music? why don't we sound like the whites?
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it's the premise that foreign music is superior that makes pinoy music inferior.
maririnig natin yan sa mga sarili nating mga tanong.
what makes our recordings so pinoy?....
do our recordings really need improvement, just because they sound pinoy? like it's a bad thing?
inferior equipment was one of the factors that got started that entire hiphop revolution. it's now one of the biggest selling genres in music.
that was an entire culture that refused to ask the question - what's wrong with our music? why don't we sound like the whites?
I disagree on several points that you make. One: If you consider our recordings on par with internationally produced records then, sure, the claim of inferiority has no effect. However, if one listens to records and compares a type of sound - British or American - you answer is best summed up according to personal preference. What do YOU like? Personally, I like my music productions warm, punchy, with a realistic in-your-face sound. Do the recordings of local places deliver as well as British and American products? No. But that is MY preference. If you are fine with the local sound - more power to you. Also, no one is "trying"to sound like the "white man." If you've worked in studios long enough or collaborated with different people in music, there is no "white man" dictating the quality of the sound. In reality, studio engineers whether in the US, Japan or Europe, are all of different nationalities. Asking around how you can make your productions sound like the "the white man's" product is going to get you thrown out of the building.
Two: hiphop was NOT launched by inferior gear. Rather, it was launched as a result of cultural innovation and resourcefulness. The boom box, tape, records, and turntables were the tools of early hiphop pioneers. Note, the Technics SL1200MK2 - the DJ and Hip Hop artist's workhorse - is NOT an inferior piece of equipment. If it were, it would not still be in production 30 years after being introduced into the market with virtually no changes to its original design. Moreover, the vinyl record, another integral piece of hiphop, is NOT inferior. In fact, audiophiles - a lot of them - still prefer the warmth and punch of vinyl over digital music reproduction.
So, what is the Achilles heel of our Philippine production work? If marvin says it isn't the skills, or the gear, what is it then? I think, the answer lies in socialization, specifically,social standards pertaining to music. We think American or British made music is better because we have been weaned on it. IS this bad? Not necessarily, except that it seems to irk a lot of Filipino pride as to whether or not we can hang with foreign produced material. My answer to this? Develop and present production material that CAN compare with foreign produced music. If it annoys people so much that Western made music is THE standard then, make a new standard patterned after a local sound, OR develop something that sound totally unique and ends up being recognized as a unique production.
Another point is about Filipino musician's kicking a$$. Sure, this is true - skillwise - but ask yourself this: when was the last time our country produced an act that was internationally recognized for being uniquely Filipino? When was the last time we produced musical talent that represented something truly Filipino? In my opinion, Freddie Aguilar was the last person that even turned heads abroad that others outside the country actually knew who he was and knew what he contributed to our musical identity. He wasn't looking to sound 'kano, heck, Änak wasn't even sung in any other language until distribution for the music called for translations of the song!
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i think the proof is in the pudding. our local productions can really use some imrpovement. however, musicality is a whole different story.
i appreciate what marvin said about the integrity that musicians had in the past. and when abyss mentions ANAK, it kinda comes together. you're both right. i think we could all use a little soul searching when it comes to our identity. but production wise, we could benefit a lot by borrowing knowledge from those who had actually achieved higher quality productions. to turn a blind eye on the fact that there ARE clearer, cleaner, smoother sounds that had been produced beyond our borders would be detrimental to our industry's growth.
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I think Urban Dub could have sounded huge with a Rick Rubin production...
This "It's the indian not the arrow" mentality that gets abused most often.
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well, i agree on several points that you all have made.
about hiphop music, well, as far as i know, those who got this genre started weren't people who could afford the latest synths and machines and all that. kaya nga yung mga lumang instrumento yung mga ginamit nila eh, including the now priceless tr808's and 12 bit samplers. the main point was, they innovated with whatever tools they had. hindi sila nagpalimita sa gamit na hawak nila.
great music will always be made regardless of the quality of the instruments or tools.
a lot of recordings done here are good. and it was never my intention to say that it's wrong to have a preference for american or british music. i'm just trying to answer a question.
when some of our recordings sound pinoy, maybe it's because that was the intention - to sound pinoy. i don't think i was being inaccurate when i said that most musicians try to avoid 'sounding pinoy', again, like it's a terrible thing.
mga kapatid, maganda rin sana kung magkakaron tayo ng tunog na matatawag talaga nating sariling atin. and maybe then, there could be some weight to the term, ORIGINAL PILIPINO MUSIC.
does anybody of you think i'm lieing when i say a lot of our current music have been derived (either accidentally or on purpose) from american music?
and punto ko, habang ginagaya natin sila, mahihirapan tayong makagawa ng mas maganda o kasing ganda ng likha nila.
sure, i never disagreed that our recordings need a lot of improvement. but i cannot agree that the aim should be to sound like them.
education will play a huge role in putting filipino music in its rightful place. marami tayong matututunan sa musika ng mga kano at mga briton, at hindi ko yon babaguhin.
hindi ko naman iniiwasang gayahin sila eh. pero hindi ko rin iniiwasang magtunog pinoy.
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our recordings need to get better.... not better than...
the quest to make them better shouldn't stop when we've produced recordings that are 'at par' with theirs.
i'm happy with a lot of what's happening with our indie community. palagay ko nandun ang pag-asa natin.
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a lot of our musicians, especially in our local indie community can benefit largely from good equipment, a good working budget, better skills...
ang kulang sa atin, suporta.
the major record companies would rather fund a viva hot babes album than mon david's...
our geniuses don't get heard as much....
kaya karamihan sa mga national artists natin, mahihirap.
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hi again friends.
here's a very recent realization. I think our varying opinions stems from the fact that we're also looking at this issue from varying perspectives. i think we are looking at the same thing from different angles. pero palagay ko pare-pareho rin tayo ng ibig sabihin.
abyssinianson, yes, maybe i did use the word 'inferior' a little too loosely. what i meant was, those turntables, cheap beatboxes, and 12 bit samplers were utilized during an era when the more popular (or 'superior') means of creating music was with a synclavier, a fairlight, or wavetable synthesizers (which sounded more 'real' than those that came before them) or 16-bit samplers, or more recent drum machines. besides, again, 'superior' is also matter of perspective. it's not absolute. if some of the info i provided were inaccurate, then i apologize for whatever confusion they may have caused. but it wasn't a history lesson. the point was, good music will always be created, regardless of methodology.
i agree that our mixes need to be clearer and smoother sounding, punchier. they need to be improved, but not according to a yardstick that is being provided by our neighbors. we need to improve our music. but we shouldn't avoid sounding pinoy.
i think we all agree that our music needs improvement.
i am happy with the very active local indie community we have in our industry. nandun sa kanila ang pag-asa natin.
the major labels would rather fund remake albums, and the likes of viva hot babes... and also for a very good reason, it sells!
i wouldn't be a bit surprised if one of these days, alyssa alano came out with an album... siguradong mapopondohan nang maayos yon.
hindi naman kulang sa pondo eh. sa opinyon ko, napupunta lang sa maling lugar.
keys me.....
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yep - the evolution of music trends always comes the underground whether we are talking about indie, hip hop, electronica, or rock. however, there isn't anything wrong with "sounding" pinoy; you can sound as pinoy as you want and refuse to sing in any other language if you want to be a purist about preserving what it really means to sound Filipino. the main point I was trying to make was just in terms of presenting a Filipino sound in the context of international sonic standards so our resulting music is punchier and more accurate in representing the emotion, drive, and content of the music.
I often find it sad that I never got into recording or music production when I was younger and growing up in the Phils because of the rich variety of music we have to offer. There isn't anything wrong with emulating the 'Kano sound, i think, because everyone learns that way: emulating others. However, I really do think that there ought to be more artists looking to grow out of their comfort boxes to embrace what is international and mesh it with what local flavor we have. The result: and international sound that isn't quite like the original. Some acts that come to mind are Junior Kilat, and back in their heyday, The Eraserheads.
On a different note, I really do need to collect indigenous Filipino instruments for use in my own music. In recent years, I have fancied collecting ethnic instruments from different parts of the world but never got a chance to collecting from my own country. I look forward to doing that soon.
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by the way, let me say some things that might already be obvious to a lot of you.
internationally released albums more often than not receive so much more funding than those that are only for local release. only those with the funding will be able to afford redoing a mix on an ssl-equipped studio with a topnotch engineer, just because the hihat didn't sound quite right. so in that respect, it MIGHT be the budget... and skills... and come to think of it, equipment...
again, as a result of that huge funding, the production can also afford topnotch musicians - those people we only know thanks to the magazines... so in that respect again, it MIGHT be skills...
those points, i think, account for a huge part in that seeming difference between our local releases and those that are released internationally...
i'm just guessing, that MAYBE our local releases can compete with the ones for local release in those countries (US, UK, Japan, etc.), most probably because they make use of most things that we also have access to... talent-wise, equipment-wise and funding-wise.
and that's probably a comparison that's fairer, if there is such a term.
but sometimes Davids can win over the Goliaths.
i'd always prefer to listen to Gary Granada rather than Britney Spears.
...and this is the point where budget, skills, and equipment seem irrelevant.
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abyssinianson, you can try looking for some native musical instruments in the antique section of tiendesitas, although a lot of them would need of restoring. but then again, if you're up to it, then i guess you'll find a few gems there.... of course i'm assuming you're here in the philippines.
let me quote you...
....however, there isn't anything wrong with "sounding" pinoy...
my friend, that's exactly the point i was trying to make.
in fact, i agree with every point you've made.
i think we're trying to say the same things in very different ways.
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for the most part, i think major record labels are refusing to take risks - they'd rather keep coming up with remake albums, and making use of their 'tried and tested' formulas -- launching their artists as 'the celine dion of the philippines' or our 'mariah carey' or 'usher' or whatever else.
sa palagay ko, dito tayo nalalagot.
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there isn't anything wrong with sounding pinoy - yes - but will sounding pinoy allow us to battle it out with internationally produced music records? not really. why? because the standards are different, and comparing the locally prepared records shows how our products CAN benefit from applying the same approach to our music. i am ot saying its bad to apply the international standards because, at the same time, we can still retain the local voicing while packing the music record in a format, and style familiar to listners abroad.
Funding is a worry in producing local acts. however, there are other acts in the US and in Europe that benefitted from a DiY approach but still garnered great acclaim. Some examples are: Cody Chestnutt's, Bedroom Masterpiece, (made, mastered, and mixed in a bedroom studio with pawnshop analog equipment), The Prodigy's current release, Outnumbered But Never Outgunned, (the foundation was made in Propellerhead's Reason), and Stevie Ray Vaughan's, The Sky Is Crying, a record which incidentally was meant to be a Demo but sounded so good it was released as-is. In these cases, the responsibility of making a good record falls on knowing your gear, and consciously avoiding the pitfalls of having multiples of everything you can get your hands on in a music store. I mean, a lot of project studio people here on the forum have more than enough to lay a strong foundation for a great record so, really, its all in the methodology of prepping your material so its sounds great.
You are right. Local record companies should stop rebadging singer's records after internationally known names. I mean, what is its purpose? Recognition? Heck, you can only last so long riding some other artist's coat tails, and nothing you can do will work as well as catching people's attention with a well written song or a catchy riff.
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amen!
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Sabi nga nila:
"You're recording will only sound as good as your weakest link in your signal chain." :wink:
Budget and Skills are probably the biggest factors IMHO. Dito papasok siguro ang "tone is in the money" principle. But then again, the skill of the recordist (engineer) makes a lot of compromise to your sound. :)
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i agree my friend.
..."Your recording will only sound as good as your weakest link in your signal chain."...
the assumption of course, is that the music being recorded is worth recording in the first place.
because even in the most expensive studios, the same principle applies - garbage in, garbage out...
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the assumption of course, is that the music being recorded is worth recording in the first place.
because even in the most expensive studios, the same principle applies - garbage in, garbage out...
True indeed. :) Syempre, malaking factor din yung performance nung mga muso. :D
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a lot of our musicians, especially in our local indie community can benefit largely from good equipment, a good working budget, better skills...
ang kulang sa atin, suporta.
the major record companies would rather fund a viva hot babes album than mon david's...
our geniuses don't get heard as much....
kaya karamihan sa mga national artists natin, mahihirap.
i agree.. Sad isnt it?.. very very true..
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http://www.studioreviews.com/killingmusic.htm
reactions, mga kapatid?
of course the article's correct for the most part...
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He is right. Holing up in your studio to perfect your knowledge of your tools is a double edged sword. On one hand, you end up being comfortable with your tools, and can work efficiently to produce the songs that you are working on. On the other, you can get so caught up in being in the studio that you neglect the performance aspect of being a musician. It is for this very reason that I try and regulate the amount of crap I may accumulate if I am not conscious of the pitfalls of GAS attacks.
When I first started getting into recording, I had so many free and purchased plugins in my VST and RTAS/TDM folders that it got wayyyyyyy too overwhelming to even start a song. I mean, I figured that the more I had in my toolbelt, the more productive I would be, right? Wrong. Not only was I swamped with tools, I was swamped with the task of learning what everything did. A few years ago, I did away with all of that and keep my tools - hardware and software - to a bare minimum. Moreover, I've tried streamlining my creative process by using a plain ól notebook to map out prospective ideas for songs. Whether the song is instrument driven, or a remix of an existing song, I either use a notepad, an acoustic guitar, or my mp3 player's record function to try out chord variations and melodies to get those creative juices flowing. I've found that the LESS I have to work with the better I am at coming up with the ideas for songs.
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the article is aimed at musicians. the moral of the story is: concentrate on song writing, rather than on twiddling virtual knobs. BE A MUSICIAN and make music, rather than spend so much time on the technical aspect of recording. from this angle, i can only agree. it was easier for me to write a song then with an old tascam porta studio, than to setup the whole shebang before laying down my ideas. the lengthy process of preparing for a "proper" recording totally kills a writer's inspiration (or puts it on hold, which is a bad bad thing to do as the muse does not enjoy waiting).
however, from a recordist's point of view (one who doesn't have to dabble in song writing at all), home studios are a godsend. in a third world country such as ours, home recording studios are the only means for most musicians to actually come up with decently recorded material, other than being unbelievably fortunate to be discovered and signed by a label.
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Ayoko pa po sana mag-post dito newbie lang kasi ako nakakahiya sa mga señor... :oops: Pero di ko na matiis eh. Baka lang ma-inspire kayo dito last 2002 pa yan...
:arrow: clicky here (http://www.litovil.com/gallery.htm)
Balita ko dyan pinuri ni David Foster hindi lang yung song pero pati na rin yung areglo ang sabi ni idol magaling daw pinoy musicians. :D Ang nakakatuwa pa dito demo lang dala ni Lito Villareal sa america pero ang malupit 4 na awards napanalunan, 2 yung grand prize dun. (bago ko malimutan yung ibang drum samples dun sa demo courtesy of idol MarvinQ :D. Bale S1000 4Mb ram, JV-880 and 8 track machine lang ginamit dun sa demo) Kung sa kopyahan lang siguro ng tunog sa mixing o kaya sa areglo eh kayang-kaya natin yang mga pinoy walang duda yan. Ano pa kung gagawa tayo ng orig para may sariling identity di ba. Maraming magagaling dyan sa paligid hindi nga lang sila kilala. Naalala ko rin yung sinabi ng kaibigan kong namayapa na sabi nya "man/machine combination" daw. Parang ganito, kung meron ka hi-tech na gamit pero di mo naman alam gamitin di siguro tutunog ng matino yun. Tama rin si abyssinianson at starfugger minsan kasi naka focus na sa sobrang ka-hitechan kaya na out of focus na di na makagawa ng matinong kanta. Pero siempre pagdating naman sa mix ibang usapan naman yun kahit na basic set-up lang siguro dapat matino rin mga recording gears. Lalo pa ngayon nagkalat na mga magagandang softwares wala na tayong excuse para di makagawa ng matinong mix. Isa pa wag tayo magpakalunod sa theory lang meron ngang ibang mga graduate pa sa berkley alam lahat ng frequencies pero pag pinag-eq mo ang sama ng tunog. :P Ok lang maging technical pero dapat alam natin kung pano at kelan i-apply. Siguro talasan rin natin ang mga tenga makinig lang ng makinig foreign man o local material research lang natin kahit anong genre pa yan di magtatagal magkakaron tayo ng bionic ears nyan maririning na rin natin lahat ng mga "kulay" na nagtatago dyan. IMHO lang po... :lol:
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yeah, which is why I would rather give up the recording equipment than not have my acoustic guitars around. Without those, I can't lay the foundation for anything!
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This is actually true since our mentality is always "Kaya ko rin yan!"... well, of course kaya kung sa kaya... but when turning "pro" - when I say pro, I mean doing it for a living...regardless of skill level... you have to ask yourself, is it worth it?
for example... say I run a cafe. I buy coffee beans from someone who grows them. and I say... "well, I can grow my own beans also in my backyard"... ok, so now I'm growing beans... taking time to make sure they grow right... meanwhile, I'm not in my cafe running the business... so business starts slowing down... so I run back to the cafe to try and fix things... meanwhile, my beans at home are dying...
Point being, just cuz you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. There's a reason why an industry grows... it's when everyone helps support each other with complementary services. If you're a musician, and don't really know anything about recording... then leave that to the recording engineers. That's not your job, nor should you feel obligated to know how to use a DAW. This allows you (the musician) to become better at writing songs (instead of worrying about ASIO and latency) then let the studio tech worry about those things. That way, you both get better at what you enjoy doing.
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I really miss those times when recording an album involved a lot of people. First, there were the producers. These weren't just like most of today's "producers" who just show up during the recording sessions, contributing nothing. (Some of today's producers don't even show up - you just see their names on the cheques and on the album credits). They used to do a lot more than that, hahaha. Then, there were the composers/songwriters. Minsan iba pa nga yung lyricist dun sa composer. Arrangers, of course, then orchestrators, if they were relevant tot he project. The, copyists. Then the recording engineers, and the musicians. It's only at this point where the singer/solo artist comes into the picture. Ideally, at each stage, the music is improving, and everybody is very good at what he/she does. It's the interactive aspect of music-making that seems to be missing, IMHO. Music of today's music, at least those in the mainstream pop, aren't given as many chances to improve (given that there's way less people involved in them), given today's budget constraints, and several other factors, i guess. The software sequencers and recorders have greatly improved the quality of the demos being produced at home, and probably music that are done at a DIY situation. Those pieces of software have greatly reduced the relevance of big studios and 'real' audio engineers, and 'real' producers and arrangers. The industry is getting smaller and smaller for them. And that shouldn't be the case. Their expertise is still very relevant. They can still help shape the music we make.
Well, I also agree with that saying about too many cooks...
A lot of these changes, i guess, is a matter of economics too. These aren't the best of times. Medyo tag-hirap. Yung iba, hindi lang medyo. Tag-hirap talaga.
The quality of the recordings that reach the consumer has greatly improved too. That's why it's only now that piracy is hurting so many industries. Noon kasi talagang mas maganda yung mga orig. And the cost of piracy has gone down by a great deal. Ngayon kahit sino kayang kumopya ng cd, vcd, or dvd. Noon kasi, pag cassette ang kinopya mo, maingay na yung kopya. At hindi nakokopya yung mga plaka. LP to cassette, pwede siyempre. Pero hindi kasing bilis ng mga CD burners natin ngayon.
At ang cassette at LP, hindi nado-download.
Ngayon pati yung recording studio (a.k.a. DAW software) mahahanap na sa limewire.
Ganon din naman ang nangyayari kahit sa Amerika. Ang pagkakaiba nangyayari dun sa itaas ng 'food chain' nila. Dun sa mga malalaking proyekto nila makikita ang pagkakaiba. It's at that point where great recording equipment, great recording engineers, orchestrators, mixing and mastering engineers remain in the picture.
Great musicianship, arranging skills, good songwriting are all relevant regardless of budget, or setting (whether in a home or pro situation).
Artistic integrity of course, is very important too. And by this, i don't mean that we should exert effort not to sound like foreign recordings/songs. I mean that there shouldn't be an effort to sound like them. Kung yun ang lumabas dun sa kanta, then congratulations. It's my opinion that efforts to sound like American &/or British recordings are best done in a learning situation. Marami talaga tayong pwedeng matutunan sa kanila.
If there is something that I think we should all push, it's that we should support our local music industry (and whatever's left of our film industry too). Let's buy legal copies of the good albums(and movies). Let's empower the greatest of our artists, and make sure they'll keep on making good songs. Let's give them enough support to make them able to afford the good studios, and good engineers, and great producers.
Maybe then, we can really compete with the rest of the world.
There's a lot that we can do about our aspirations as a race, we just don't know where to start...
We're too busy looking for new pirated dvd's and mp3's.
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This is actually true since our mentality is always "Kaya ko rin yan!"... well, of course kaya kung sa kaya... but when turning "pro" - when I say pro, I mean doing it for a living...regardless of skill level... you have to ask yourself, is it worth it?
for example... say I run a cafe. I buy coffee beans from someone who grows them. and I say... "well, I can grow my own beans also in my backyard"... ok, so now I'm growing beans... taking time to make sure they grow right... meanwhile, I'm not in my cafe running the business... so business starts slowing down... so I run back to the cafe to try and fix things... meanwhile, my beans at home are dying...
Point being, just cuz you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. There's a reason why an industry grows... it's when everyone helps support each other with complementary services. If you're a musician, and don't really know anything about recording... then leave that to the recording engineers. That's not your job, nor should you feel obligated to know how to use a DAW. This allows you (the musician) to become better at writing songs (instead of worrying about ASIO and latency) then let the studio tech worry about those things. That way, you both get better at what you enjoy doing.
having dual roles in music depends on what you want out of engaging in being a musician and producer at the same time. sure, some people are good at being a producer than being a musician and vice versa, however juggling both roles have to do with your goals, and how much time you want to put into your passion for music.. you dont HAVE to make a living out of both to be considered a full fledged producer or musician. in the scene I am in, most people who take that route are literally stuffing all their eggs in a basket that carries no guarantees. i mean, what are the chances of gaining recognition if you have that mentality? slim at best so, imagine the potential disappointment and tension if you depend on it as a main job! i've known some bands and producers that have done great work and dont worry about recognition at all. as long as they work in music and work with passion, all is good. moreover, they occupy roles of musician and producer because of one simple reason: the better you know the process of writing and recording, the better you can write - and record - your songs as you mean them to be heard.
i really like doing production work and playing music as a performer because I have the freedom to work on music and experiment. do I do this as a fulltime job? nope, but I accept gigs and projects based on MY schedule. my profession has nothing to do with the arts and music. i have always divided both cleanly mainly because I want to retain the main element in my passion for music: fun. besides, i wouldn't want to do work in music as a professional; it gets ugly. where is the fun in working on a deadline and dealing with the pressure of a profession that is unpredictable as all hell? investing in that pursuit 100% is basically going to sap the fun out of music for me. as long as I feel no pressure, all I have to worry about is experimenting and having fun. seriously, the business side of music sucks, touring for months sucks, dealing with booking agents and promoters suck, negotiating pay for projects suck, negotiating royalties suck...blah..blah...blah. i've been on both ends of the spectrum and there isn't anything glamorous about playing at a club 2,000 miles from home and doing that over and over for at least a month, and doing all of this because you are a professional who depends on this livelihood to eat.
as far as collaboration goes, I am a sucker for group projects and shuttling ideas back and forth. maybe this is why I love doing remixes so much and will rarely turn one down. involved producers are rare these days, i think, but it is always a good thing to have a producer that actively plays a role as a musician because they are better equipped at comminicating ideas and tailoring them to the needs of the musicians that might not know much about achieving specific sounds for a song. some stellar examples of producers like these are: Butch Vig (Garbage), Adam Durkewitz (Killswitch Engage), Steve Albini (Shellac), Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails), Charlie Clouser (Nine INch Nails/ Atari Teenage Riot), and BT (DJ, musician, composer).
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I think Big factor un Producer ng record. A lot of Pro records are intentionally, "downplayed" mixwise and soundwise para mas maging
radio friendly. Madalas the big sound of a band is not portrayed accurately on record to compensate for the radio listeners, lalo na
on many rock records. The big sound i think is often an executive
decision or producers call. Pwede naman cguro ma gawa un "big Record"
sound ng foreign records, kasi may gamit din naman dito yun big pro studios. I think yun main factor influencing the quality of the records is
the producers and executives listening to the sound. Exception to the rule yun mga bands like kamikaze and Slapshock, other heavy bands. pero in their case, parang lumalabas un skills na ng nagmix or yun gamit. Kasi they're suppose to sound big pero mejo lata parin compared to say
Black Album ng metallica, or kahit Blink 182 nalang. I guess we can say
dahil nga contrived yun mga engineers natin to do what the top executives say, they can't really experiment that much. kaya naman huli pa tayo sa getting that big record sound. Take Japan for instance, nung late 80's palang huli na nila yun mga big sounds ng La studios from early 80's. Kaya tingnan nyo how a japanese record is produced, kuha un big sound from UK or US. Kasi dehins takot yun mga engineers, producers don to experiment and do WHATEVER it takes to get that big sound. Dito malayo pa. Gear is a factor, pero yun producer is the one who calls the shots, eh madaming producers dito contrived wether artistically or financially. Talagang mahirap burahin un norms na na set nila gary V. and martin N. na what a pop record is supposed to sound like. Yun parin yun tunog na naririnig kay Regine, Side A. Yun "safe" record sound.
Hanggang hindi nadedevelope yun cutting edge mentality sa mga
producers natin, mejo matagal pa tayo hahabol sa sounds sa Abroad.
Meron naman gear, meron naman skills, pero yun mentality kulang pa.
Iba ito dun sa colonial mentality. Ibig sabihin ko yun minset ng producers,
a desire to go beyond the norms. Hindi yun, pwede nayan, ganun ginawa namin kay Bamboo eh. Or ganito yun drums sa album ni Regine.
Innovate. Easier said than done.
hindi ko naman sinasabi na masama yun records natin. Eh yun "i stand with you" ng Dawn kahit low tech pa, eh was a good record. River maya's
records are excellent. Pero for a lot, mejo feeling ko is too downplayed by the producers. Usually nga drums un tell tale ng mediocre record
production. But Sandwhich is good. Kitchie is good. Even yun mga bago ni gary V. and regine ok naman eh. Pero can still improve from a recording point of view. Yun opm natin can use more "balls", be it Pop or rock.
Like take Celine D's song, the song from Titanic, it takes a lot to make a record sound as big as that. They won't settle for anything less.
Ganun sa US i think.
Marami naman ok na local records. Pero sa japan pare, makinig kayo sa
mga hapon. Kahit pop, big sound. Lalo na Rock.
Malupit! They have they're own sound, kahit sa kano papalag.
Minsan nga mas astig pa. Kasi yun mga kano, minsan feeling ko have lost some of the edge.
Having said all this, I think we're on our way to a bigger sound. It's a lot
better, recordingwise, than most records we had say 10 years ago.
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having dual roles in music depends on what you want out of engaging in being a musician and producer at the same time. sure, some people are good at being a producer than being a musician and vice versa, however juggling both roles have to do with your goals, and how much time you want to put into your passion for music.. you dont HAVE to make a living out of both to be considered a full fledged producer or musician.
Abyss, my point was just that... you don't HAVE (that's the key-word) to have dual roles. Some people like to have multiple roles... and that's just fine... there's no clear cut JD for production anyway (whether it's film, tv, music, etc)
A lot of big musicians actually are better producers than musicians, or some are good at both... bjork does hands-on mixing and recording... eminem produces. and so on.
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having dual roles in music depends on what you want out of engaging in being a musician and producer at the same time. sure, some people are good at being a producer than being a musician and vice versa, however juggling both roles have to do with your goals, and how much time you want to put into your passion for music.. you dont HAVE to make a living out of both to be considered a full fledged producer or musician.
Abyss, my point was just that... you don't HAVE (that's the key-word) to have dual roles. Some people like to have multiple roles... and that's just fine... there's no clear cut JD for production anyway (whether it's film, tv, music, etc)
A lot of big musicians actually are better producers than musicians, or some are good at both... bjork does hands-on mixing and recording... eminem produces. and so on.
oh sure - i wasn't disagreeing which is why I offered that occupying dual roles depends on what your goals are, AND how much time your are willing to put into the learning curve of what you need to use as a producer. anyone who has done recording or mixing knows that the learning for the process is steep, and that there is always a process involved. knowing this tradeoff might deter some who wish to remain strict musicians and would rather deal with gigging rather than tweaking, you know? some people are just more inclined to tweak since it doesnt bother them as much as booking gigs and dealing with all the pains that goes with being a performance musician.
Bjork has always remained at the cutting edge of what she does by experimenting and suprising people. Eminem, on the other hand, I am not a big fan off because other than his songs (how many times can you REALLY make a song about your daughter Hayley??), his sound is nothing special; it sounds west coast which is nothing suprising since he did learn the ropes from Dr. Dre. All in all, contemporary rap records in general don't rely on too much technological fancy, really. Programming on eminem records are spartan compared to other artists who rely on live instrumentation and MIDI/ synth programming in addition to establishing a solid vocal sound.
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the achilles heel? it lies in between the spinny stef and the sylvimmouse sbarkley.. :lol:
ps... to be at par with US -UK- EUROPEAN recordings, i think we actually need
1. better preamps
2. better mixes
3. better arrangements
4. better monitoring
5. better mastering
6. a producer/arranger who's always ready to take risks and not be too comfortable with the tried and tested past recordings.
7. last but not the least , ORIGINAL compositions....
only then we can claim to have world class recordings. regardless of
GENRE of music and LANGUAGE being sung.
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Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds. Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song. Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:
-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?
Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...
ATTITUDE!
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Everytime I listen to local BAND recordings, one thing I notice is the flimsy drum sounds. Add some processed-sounding guitar tracks, you end up with an unlistenable song. Ang daming bandang magagaling na hindi mabigyan ng magandang representation sa recording dahil sa pangit na:
-GAMIT BA?
-SKILLS BA?
-BUDGET BA?
Anyway, just wanna know what makes our recordings sound so Pinoy...
ATTITUDE!
@ fascinatedbymusic
Huh?!?! :? :?
what do you mean attitude?
Do u mean Local Engineers/Studios doesnt have the attitude to make a record good sounding?
FYI... Dojie/Skunkyfunk is refering to the sound on a mix
hehehe another buried thread that resurrected :D
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ATTITUDE!
@ fascinatedbymusic
Huh?!?! :? :?
what do you mean attitude?
Do u mean Local Engineers/Studios doesnt have the attitude to make a record good sounding?
FYI... Dojie/Skunkyfunk is refering to the sound on a mix
hehehe another buried thread that resurrected :D
This thread was made 2 years ago. in fairness, our recordings have improved for the past 2 years. Heck, 2 years means a lifetime in terms of software, soundcards, blah blah.
But you're right. Attitude is the common problem. When engineers dictate what the artist should do than otherwise. When engineers don't look for alternatives because they're lazy. When engineers don't want to admit that they're at fault for a bad recording. I made a lot of sucky recordings myself but the common problem among those sucky recordings was not being creative enough to think of other methods to achieve a particular sound. Equipment is just another factor. But then again, the attitude of the artist plays a larger role on output. Hence the tardiness, laziness, and mediocrity issues with some thinking that technology and the engineer can save their lives.
Someone's been searchin' my threads lately huh? :-D
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You've been searchin' my threads lately huh?
not me man! its the newbie guy. hehehe
backread bro! hehe
Yes and your point is? This thread was made 2 years ago. And don't tell me our recordings haven't improved for the past 2 years. Heck, 2 years means a lifetime in terms of software, soundcards, blah blah.
Im not into arguing bro...
But you're right. Attitude is the common problem. When engineers dictate what the artist should do than otherwise. When engineers don't look for alternatives because they're lazy. When engineers don't want to admit that they're at fault for a bad recording. I made a lot of sucky recordings myself but the common problem among those sucky recordings was not being creative enough to think of other methods to achieve a particular sound. Equipment is just another factor. But then again, the attitude of the artist plays a larger role on output. Hence the tardiness, laziness, and mediocrity issues with some thinking that technology and the engineer can save their lives.
Maybe you're right... Attitude can be a big factor if an Engineer is too "lazy" (a) to improvise on a mix (b) do good recordings/mix because he/she really doesnt like to work with a certain artist/band (c) research on an output which foreign record producers/ foreign studios "produced"
But then again... Pinoy tayo! Lets be proud with other Engineers/Studios produced that made the Top Chart. And also... lets be proud of what we accomplished with our respective recordings and studio perhaps. ;)
again ...like this famous quote "A mix is never final until a producer says so..." Whenever I open a old session... i found myself mixing again hehe.
Peace Bro :)
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the achilles heel? it lies in between the spinny stef and the sylvimmouse sbarkley.. :lol:
ps... to be at par with US -UK- EUROPEAN recordings, i think we actually need
1. better preamps
2. better mixes
3. better arrangements
4. better monitoring
5. better mastering
6. a producer/arranger who's always ready to take risks and not be too comfortable with the tried and tested past recordings.
7. last but not the least , ORIGINAL compositions....
only then we can claim to have world class recordings. regardless of
GENRE of music and LANGUAGE being sung.
You're forgetting the most critical part (hardware wise) of the studio...
The studio itself.
Most "recording" studios here are NOT acoustically correct in any way. There are only a handful that are correct... there are a lot that "look" correct... but that's like saying a kit-Ferrari is as good as the real thing.
The best preamps & mics in the world will not compensate for poor acoustics (or poor mic technique..but let's assume miking is correct)
I'd rather have a $300 mic and a $100 preamp and a great room... over a $4000 preamp and a $2000 mic in an eggcrate 5m x 5m room.
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You may own the best tools/gears(mics, pres, acoustics, etc.) in the universe but these are just tools. These will not sound all by itself. What really counts is the user of these tools.
We're not focus enough to use these tools because we're always comparing. And that is the BIG ATTITUDE problem I'm talking about. If you can't understand what I'm saying, then that's a BIG BIG problem.
You don't need to argue with my stand-point. This is what I observe just from reading the posts and threads and in an actual studio situation.
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our recordings need to get better.... not better than...
I agree with you guys on this bit. In my very limited studio experience, I think what needs to improve in the studio scenario here in the Philippines would be the ability provide several options (of equal quality) for the musician.
I know that we've made really great records in the past with very limited equipment and - this is NOT to be taken as an insult - limited formal training, but more of these two things can definitely help in giving more options for the musician when he wants to commit his music to tape, in a manner of speaking.
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i've heard of a band na nag-record sa malaysia.. i don't see any differrence between their malaysia recording compared with pinoy records..
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jv21, true...but then again, I'm not gonna hold that as the gold standard.
as many veterans have pointed out, local recordings have gotten better... I personally like Slapshock's recordings. I mean, I'd go as far as saying that production-wise, Metallica's older albums sounded worse (pre-black album...specially RTL)
I also like Overtone's album recording.
I'm not particularly fond of Jap or HK recordings...they're clean...but a bit too clean... Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand are more or less in the same level as us.
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I dont know how you guys gonna take this post...
Clean Recordings/Mix is good but sometimes being too clean will "TAKE OUT" the character of a rock band. What i mean is... ive heard some bands who are really "maangas ang tunog sa live" but when you listen to their recordings... it softens.
I dont know... maybe its just me.
How bout u guys?
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I dont know how you guys gonna take this post...
Clean Recordings/Mix is good but sometimes being too clean will "TAKE OUT" the character of a rock band.
I dont know... maybe its just me.
How bout u guys?
I am completely with you on this. Rock records that are too clean to the point of being sterile do not sound like a rock album at all. I personally think that some hiss from a high-gain amp forms a big part of the rock and roll sound. Or perhaps the minute noises that you can hear on Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" give the recording that character.
However, one must still try to record things as correctly as possible, i.e. minimizing noises from outside, mic-ing things properly , et cetera in any recording event. Some people think that your statement above is a valid excuse for not even trying to record things properly. Yes, I like character in a rock record, but I'd also like to hear all the instruments in any record that I listen to.
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I dont know how you guys gonna take this post...
Clean Recordings/Mix is good but sometimes being too clean will "TAKE OUT" the character of a rock band. What i mean is... ive heard some bands who are really "maangas ang tunog sa live" but when you listen to their recordings... it softens.
I dont know... maybe its just me.
How bout u guys?
Not just you bro. Rock is supposed to be dirty. Or at least that's what's in my belief system. Parang peds...sticking an OPA chip in a dirt pedal is uncalled for...why put a "clean" chip in a "dirt" pedal ? :D :D :D Ooops. Geekspeak.
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You're forgetting the most critical part (hardware wise) of the studio...
The studio itself.
Most "recording" studios here are NOT acoustically correct in any way. There are only a handful that are correct... there are a lot that "look" correct... but that's like saying a kit-Ferrari is as good as the real thing.
The best preamps & mics in the world will not compensate for poor acoustics (or poor mic technique..but let's assume miking is correct)
I'd rather have a $300 mic and a $100 preamp and a great room... over a $4000 preamp and a $2000 mic in an eggcrate 5m x 5m room.
I beg to disagree, between the two factors.. excellent room acoustics with poor mic and mic pres. better mics and preamps and poor room acoustics . i'll settle for the latter because i think i can get better results..but hey its just me.. 8-)
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I dont know how you guys gonna take this post...
Clean Recordings/Mix is good but sometimes being too clean will "TAKE OUT" the character of a rock band. What i mean is... ive heard some bands who are really "maangas ang tunog sa live" but when you listen to their recordings... it softens.
I dont know... maybe its just me.
How bout u guys?
it happens...a lot of producers who are aware of the dynamic stage presence of a band try and capture that when producing a full length CD or an EP. if you ask me, knowing what a band is capable of and trying to bottle that up accurately on a CD is a good thing because you are representing what the band has to offer to prospective fans and labels.
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I dont know how you guys gonna take this post...
Clean Recordings/Mix is good but sometimes being too clean will "TAKE OUT" the character of a rock band. What i mean is... ive heard some bands who are really "maangas ang tunog sa live" but when you listen to their recordings... it softens.
I dont know... maybe its just me.
How bout u guys?
it happens...a lot of producers who are aware of the dynamic stage presence of a band try and capture that when producing a full length CD or an EP. if you ask me, knowing what a band is capable of and trying to bottle that up accurately on a CD is a good thing because you are representing what the band has to offer to prospective fans and labels.
+1 :)
But then again... An engineer wont be able to do much if a Producer is just there for the money or sales of a Rock Band, He/She sometimes doesnt care what will be the output of the recorded track that is if the "Producer" per se doesnt have the knowledge about Audio Engineering and all he wants is if it sounds "good".
What im pointing out is most of the time they care about "sales" than the sound of the band itself.
To justify the sound of a rock band:
a. Lets get to know what a certain rock band is capable on stage so we can justify their sound on a mix before a certain producer puts a stop on our mixing and before he/she says "Thats final". atleast if he says "linisin mo pa ng konti" it'll be just a minor tweak
b. As engineer, Sometimes we really have to love our clients even we dont really feel them :D So we can have a really good output.
c. always put passion on your work :D
Going back to the Topic 3 things were mentioned
-Gamit Ba? - ive heard some indie projects lately thats been recorded by a home recording enthusiast. And yes it sounds like a foreign made project even with limited equipments
-SKILLS BA? - maybe yes, maybe no. Most of the big studios have trained engineers and who really knows what they're doing and knows how make a mix sounds good.
-BUDGET BA? - Money is always a problem.
1.) Sometimes clients focus on how they can record fast and always ask the engineer on how long is it gonna take for it to mix the song. Always in a hurry because time is running and they have a short budget for a studio. Unless maybe its a package deal.
2.) client doesnt have the budget for Mastering.
Well ive heard songs thats not been mastered but it sounds great.
Anyway...
I still agree with marvinq's post
"our recordings need to get better.... not better than..."
I guess research and being exposed on different recordings (both foreign and local) will somehow increase our knowledge to do better recordings.
Peace!
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Personally, I feel that we should develop our "own' sound more than to try and copy others. Sure, the great engineers are out there and they probably serve as benchmarks for us, but we also lack a certain... identity.
One example that comes to mind are the japanese. Somehow, their sound has become accepted in the main stream (even though, at times, it sounds cheesy to me). The japanese have infused their national identity into their music and it does get appreciated by other cultures... something I think we should strive for.
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Just wanna share a few ideas. I hope you guys will find this relevant. :-)
1. They know how to build their own mics, consoles, instruments, hardware etc.. everything. They've been doing that for so many years, I think that's a big + for them.
2. About talent.. Yes we have so many talented musicians including engineers. But the music we play today, it's not all originally ours. We're too busy trying to copy their blues and rock etc.. We try to copy even the way they record their songs. But I guess it's not really a bad thing to like their music, because they have beautiful music, music that reflects their culture. We have learned so much about their music, I just hope that someday they would learn from ours.. So I really agree with the post above, we should develop our own sound.
3. I think our Achilles heel is... money. hehe :-)
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Personally, I feel that we should develop our "own' sound more than to try and copy others. Sure, the great engineers are out there and they probably serve as benchmarks for us, but we also lack a certain... identity.
One example that comes to mind are the japanese. Somehow, their sound has become accepted in the main stream (even though, at times, it sounds cheesy to me). The japanese have infused their national identity into their music and it does get appreciated by other cultures... something I think we should strive for.
yeah. ironically, the japanese market is the biggest music market out of the US and Europe but a lot of the people don't listen to as much to Western music like they do their own homegrown music. As a result, the music that gets produced in japan is an interesting hybrid of outside styles and their own version of music creativity which can be great or cheesy. Still, the stuff sells like hotcakes and I often had to wait in line at the local "Like an Edison" (a record place) to even listen to a new CD out because kids were just so rabid over new artist releases!
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A bit OT:
While browsing thru my dvd collection... i just found out that "Guitar Wars" is entirely Japanese produced. even live recording they can really stand out.
I also heard that Population1 album of Nuno is also Japanese produced.
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well, all i can suggest to you guys is, stop influencing your result to foreign products and start to focus on your own. after all these years, you're always proving to your self that you're at par with the foreigners. some call it, GODS. this is the reason why they're always one step ahead of us or even more. you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that.
ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe
let the flames begin. hehehehehe
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well, all i can suggest to you guys is, stop influencing your result to foreign products and start to focus on your own. after all these years, you're always proving to your self that you're at par with the foreigners. some call it, GODS. this is the reason why they're always one step ahead of us or even more. you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that.
ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe
let the flames begin. hehehehehe
So Mr. Freelance engineer, what ORIGINAL TECHNIQUES do you wanna share with us? Have you tried setting up your own studio with a limited budget to cater to most clients? Or are you busy just waiting for that call to track or mix because you are a so-called freelance "STUDIO EFFIN ENGINEER"? Ang ganda tignan sa calling card kasi na "sound engineer", that even my 13-year old cousin can do that too because she knows logic express.
All the techniques being done here and abroad are based on OLD KNOWLEDGE. Even your editing and snipping waveforms using your mouse using auto-crossfades are based on the concept of splicing tape and having the right angles on the tape cuts to determine the length of the crossfade. Have you done that yourself Mr. Freelance engineer? Engineer ka diba? Have you also done tape loops and tape echoes? Flanging with two tape decks? Your very beloved pirated plugins are also based on hardware designs of the past.
Nobody is claiming OPM recordings being superior to the foreign material. For one, listen to the indie scene in the US. They don't sound as clean or overproduced as the multi-million$ productions.
Our main problem in the recordings this country is the fact that the production is compelled to cut corners, always. It is either they end up having more hours to record in a crap studio, or less hours to record in a good studio. Chances are, indie musicians would always depend on ALL the studio's equipment, including the amps and drums which, in other countries, is not the case. Throw in a freelance engineer for the project who doesn't know squat about the routes and ways around the studio, you're in trouble.
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let the flames begin. hehehehehe
At mag-ingat ka. Ako ang batas ng MTPA. Ako lang may karapatan mang-asar dito.
:evil:
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So Mr. Freelance engineer, what ORIGINAL TECHNIQUES do you wanna share with us? Have you tried setting up your own studio with a limited budget to cater to most clients? Or are you busy just waiting for that call to track or mix because you are a so-called freelance "STUDIO EFFIN ENGINEER"? Ang ganda tignan sa calling card kasi na "sound engineer", that even my 13-year old cousin can do that too because she knows logic express.
All the techniques being done here and abroad are based on OLD KNOWLEDGE. Even your editing and snipping waveforms using your mouse using auto-crossfades are based on the concept of splicing tape and having the right angles on the tape cuts to determine the length of the crossfade. Have you done that yourself Mr. Freelance engineer? Engineer ka diba? Have you also done tape loops and tape echoes? Flanging with two tape decks? Your very beloved pirated plugins are also based on hardware designs of the past.
PWND!!! Hahahahah!!! :)
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you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that
okay! :)
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To sum it up, the Achilles' heel are:
1) Artists want to sound like someone else, but (with the way things are here) that's impossible, so people fck things up.
2) Lack of research, preparation, anality, and a few dashes of open-mindedness.
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So Mr. Freelance engineer, what ORIGINAL TECHNIQUES do you wanna share with us? Have you tried setting up your own studio with a limited budget to cater to most clients? Or are you busy just waiting for that call to track or mix because you are a so-called freelance "STUDIO EFFIN ENGINEER"? Ang ganda tignan sa calling card kasi na "sound engineer", that even my 13-year old cousin can do that too because she knows logic express.
All the techniques being done here and abroad are based on OLD KNOWLEDGE. Even your editing and snipping waveforms using your mouse using auto-crossfades are based on the concept of splicing tape and having the right angles on the tape cuts to determine the length of the crossfade. Have you done that yourself Mr. Freelance engineer? Engineer ka diba? Have you also done tape loops and tape echoes? Flanging with two tape decks? Your very beloved pirated plugins are also based on hardware designs of the past.
Nobody is claiming OPM recordings being superior to the foreign material. For one, listen to the indie scene in the US. They don't sound as clean or overproduced as the multi-million$ productions.
Our main problem in the recordings this country is the fact that the production is compelled to cut corners, always. It is either they end up having more hours to record in a crap studio, or less hours to record in a good studio. Chances are, indie musicians would always depend on ALL the studio's equipment, including the amps and drums which, in other countries, is not the case. Throw in a freelance engineer for the project who doesn't know squat about the routes and ways around the studio, you're in trouble.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. I bet you're hit right in the middle and you're hurt because it's the truth. I'm just suggesting. Just sharing views not techniques. NOT IMPOSING. Anyways, you don't need to know my techniques because you are very much brainwashed by the foreigner's thing. I guess you know the difference. You can say anything you want and I can say anything I want as long I'm within the forum rules. It's our freedom here. HEHEHEHEHEHE
At mag-ingat ka. Ako ang batas ng MTPA. Ako lang may karapatan mang-asar dito.
:evil:
Mag-ingat ka rin kasi lahat tayo dito may karapatan mang asar. HAHAHAHAHAHAH .. GOT YOU!!! Sabi nga ni bitoy,, YARI KA!...
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HAHAHAHAHAHA. I bet you're hit right in the middle and you're hurt because it's the truth.
THIS MADE ME CRACK UP. :-D :-D :-D Matagal ko nang alam ang problema ng recordings natin kaya tinatawanan ko na lang. Pero mas natatawa ako sa mga taong gustong maging messiah.
I'm just suggesting. Just sharing views not techniques. NOT IMPOSING. Anyways, you don't need to know my techniques because you are very much brainwashed by the foreigner's thing. I guess you know the difference.
LIAR. You just tried to pick a fight here by saying our techniques aren't original and your Mozart reincarnate persona says "you read them in the books...":
ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe
let the flames begin. hehehehehe
The point is, NO ONE READS THE BOOKS. What the helpful people here are doing is make the readers aware of basic recording techniques that have existed way before even when your Momma and Poppa were in diapers. It is easy for a person to grab a pirated copy of Sonar and record without even reading the PDF manual, which causes this proliferation of bad recordings like a contagious disease.
Now what I am challenging you to do is TELL US WHAT IS SO ORIGINAL ABOUT YOUR TECHNIQUES as a SOUND ENGINEER as you claim you are. Because I would assume 100% that what techniques you shall offer is virtually a ripoff of a technique that was been done years and years ago now.
You can say anything you want and I can say anything I want as long I'm within the forum rules. It's our freedom here. HEHEHEHEHEHE
Mag-ingat ka rin kasi lahat tayo dito may karapatan mang asar. HAHAHAHAHAHAH .. GOT YOU!!! Sabi nga ni bitoy,, YARI KA!...
You're such a retard. You cannot just say something here. And your stupidity not to read forum rules just exemplifies your ignorance. Here's an excerpt from our forum rules:
4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the forum moderator.
And in that case, sabi ni Bitoy, YARI KA. Banned... (feeling mod) :D
PS I also work with Symphonic Rock so your sample MP3 doesn't wow me at all. Nice levels, panning, but nothing special. They all sound sampled and emulated to me. Should I say, lack of organic-ness?
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i love the smell of irony in the morning :-D
afternoon na pala :)
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i love the smell of irony in the morning :-D
afternoon na pala :)
Chuck, hindi ata papayag byuti ko as resident troll. :-D
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THIS MADE ME CRACK UP. :-D :-D :-D Matagal ko nang alam ang problema ng recordings natin kaya tinatawanan ko na lang. Pero mas natatawa ako sa mga taong gustong maging messiah.
LIAR. You just tried to pick a fight here by saying our techniques aren't original and your Mozart reincarnate persona says "you read them in the books...":
The point is, NO ONE READS THE BOOKS. What the helpful people here are doing is make the readers aware of basic recording techniques that have existed way before even when your Momma and Poppa were in diapers. It is easy for a person to grab a pirated copy of Sonar and record without even reading the PDF manual, which causes this proliferation of bad recordings like a contagious disease.
Now what I am challenging you to do is TELL US WHAT IS SO ORIGINAL ABOUT YOUR TECHNIQUES as a SOUND ENGINEER as you claim you are. Because I would assume 100% that what techniques you shall offer is virtually a ripoff of a technique that was been done years and years ago now.
You're such a retard. You cannot just say something here. And your stupidity not to read forum rules just exemplifies your ignorance. Here's an excerpt from our forum rules:
4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the forum moderator.
And in that case, sabi ni Bitoy, YARI KA. Banned... (feeling mod) :D
PS I also work with Symphonic Rock so your sample MP3 doesn't wow me at all. Nice levels, panning, but nothing special. They all sound sampled and emulated to me. Should I say, lack of organic-ness?
It's your freedom to criticize. As i said before, say all you want to say. You're the one that is not nice to me and i have no problem with people like your ATTITUDE. That's expected. I understand you reaction and sadly, your frustration.
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man that was a dopey sounding clip. the "awe" i was supposed to feel was murdered by the cheesy MIDI sounds in the first 10 seconds. the flange on the fading out guitar doesn't help at all. too much reverb on the drums i think. ok, naman siya, sir. :-) taste lang siguro.
i'm waiting intently for the "original" and "not foreign-derived" ideas and techniques.
anyhow, i think that we know what we want to hear, its just that we can't arrive at that result yet because we can't seem to use our gear/tools transparently enough to retain a "natural" sound. (compressors, eq's)
i think local mixes lack a bit of crispness, air and presence. but i cant bring out that smooth treble i want when i experiment, it always ends up brittle. (and i don't boost eq's like crazy, mind you). not to mention, the bass has to be round and still intact.
i'd say that its the difference in gear perhaps that allows foreign recordings the edge they have. the sum of all the little sonic advantages found in the top-notch gear they have in the signal chain amounts to a huge difference in the end. i think that they can really abuse their gear, in a sense, in the pursuit of the sound they want without getting unwanted artifacts and byproducts.
lalo when mastering comes in. i think they can get away with so much because the mixes don't have anything funky going on. then us here, we have to be rather conservative in our processing.
hm, i think urbandub's "embrace" has a lot of mixing/mastering abuse but comes out natural enough, timbre-wise, although artificially massive and pummeling dynamics-wise.
disclaimer : beginner here :-)
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It's your freedom to criticize. As i said before, say all you want to say. You're the one that is not nice to me and i have no problem with people like your ATTITUDE. That's expected. I understand you reaction and sadly, your frustration.
Kid, our world is governed by criticism. Ika nga ni Kurt Cobain, "Self-appointing judges judge more than they have sold..." But what really turned me off was when you said that our advice/techniques are "NOT ORIGINAL" because, "you read them in the books."
And what we are advocating here is HELP THOSE WHO ARE LAZY TO READ THE BOOKS. All of a sudden, you are claiming originality, yet you cannot prove that to us. It is either you're just picking a fight or have nothing original at all to offer.
As for your mix, listening to Adagio and Symphony X, your mix sounds very much synthetic. Try harder.
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well, all i can suggest to you guys is, stop influencing your result to foreign products and start to focus on your own. after all these years, you're always proving to your self that you're at par with the foreigners. some call it, GODS. this is the reason why they're always one step ahead of us or even more. you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that.
ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe
let the flames begin. hehehehehe
play nice and be constructive - please. being filipino has nothing to do with how well or bad you do your mix; everyone is subject to the same shortcomings no matter where you are from. period. in comparison to other music production scenes, the Pinoy music scene may not hold as much experience but, with time, we too can be as good, if not better than everyone else. we have the gear, the ingenuity and the desire....the only thing that remains is the development of the approach and the method to produce consistent, well done mixes. there are a lot of big players on this board that take an active role in the pro and semi-pro music production evolution of homegrown pinoy artists. i suggest that instead of voicing antagonistic opinions which have no real basis (or purpose), why not offer helpful insight? i am sure you have something to offer that someone here could use in their work, di ba?
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Kid, our world is governed by criticism. Ika nga ni Kurt Cobain, "Self-appointing judges judge more than they have sold..." But what really turned me off was when you said that our advice/techniques are "NOT ORIGINAL" because, "you read them in the books."
And what we are advocating here is HELP THOSE WHO ARE LAZY TO READ THE BOOKS. All of a sudden, you are claiming originality, yet you cannot prove that to us. It is either you're just picking a fight or have nothing original at all to offer.
As for your mix, listening to Adagio and Symphony X, your mix sounds very much synthetic. Try harder.
Sorry, but I'm not claiming. I'm just suggesting, NOT IMPOSING. Prove enough that you're using quotes from other people(Kurt Cobain, etc.). A sign that you are indeed brainwashed. hehehehehehe
As for my mix, it's your problem if you hear it as synthetic, not mine. And I respect your opinion about that. At least, it's my mix(A SYNTHETIC ONE), not a copy from any other mixes. As for Symphony X and Adagio, I already hear mixes and I have no plan in copying those mixes whenever I can. heheheheheheheheh
NOW, you said that my mix is synthetic(i know it sound that way), can you tell me why is sound synthetic? Can you figure it out?
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play nice and be constructive - please. being filipino has nothing to do with how well or bad you do your mix; everyone is subject to the same shortcomings no matter where you are from. period. in comparison to other music production scenes, the Pinoy music scene may not hold as much experience but, with time, we too can be as good, if not better than everyone else. we have the gear, the ingenuity and the desire....the only thing that remains is the development of the approach and the method to produce consistent, well done mixes. there are a lot of big players on this board that take an active role in the pro and semi-pro music production evolution of homegrown pinoy artists. i suggest that instead of voicing antagonistic opinions which have no real basis (or purpose), why not offer helpful insight? i am sure you have something to offer that someone here could use in their work, di ba?
Well said and nice too. But, you already quoted some of my insights.
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will all do respect sir, all you do is say this and that. where's your original advice? arguing for argument's sake, perhaps?
for all your accusations of "brainwashing", lack of originality, etc. you haven't contributed anything that anyone here can use, much less learn from.
you can't type with proper grammar, much less defend yourself properly. (fact, not opinion) evidence :
As for my mix, it's your problem if you hear it as synthetic, not mine. And I respect your opinion about that. At least, it's my mix(A SYNTHETIC ONE), not a copy from any other mixes. As for Symphony X and Adagio, I already hear mixes and I have no plan in copying those mixes whenever I can. heheheheheheheheh
NOW, you said that my mix is synthetic(i know it sound that way), can you tell me why is sound synthetic? Can you figure it out?
you oversimplify things by labeling "learning from existing works" as "copying". there are things we call "industry standards".
gee, i don't know, maybe your mix sounds synthetic because you're too full of yourself and are deaf to the fact that you're not all that.
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will all do respect sir, all you do is say this and that. where's your original advice? arguing for argument's sake, perhaps?
for all your accusations of "brainwashing", lack of originality, etc. you haven't contributed anything that anyone here can use, much less learn from.
you can't type with proper grammar, much less defend yourself properly. (fact, not opinion) evidence :
you oversimplify things by labeling "learning from existing works" as "copying". there are things we call "industry standards".
gee, i don't know, maybe your mix sounds synthetic because you're too full of yourself and are deaf to the fact that you're not all that.
now your asking for my original advice? hehehehehehe that's an irony asking advise from a troll(as skunky said). heheheheheheheheh
as for my incorrect grammar, that's because i'm a filipino. i'm not perfect and definitely you're not also. important thing is, you comprehend.
and how can i defend myself when i have nothing to defend. get it????
remember, i'm just suggesting.
that "industry standard" is keeping us one step behind. hehehehehehehe
my voice here is very little but, at least, that's me. hehehehehehe.
if you don't like me, then that's your problem
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now your asking for my original advice? hehehehehehe that's an irony asking advise from a troll(as skunky said). heheheheheheheheh
as for my incorrect grammar, that's because i'm a filipino. i'm not perfect and definitely you're not also. important thing is, you comprehend.
and how can i defend myself when i have nothing to defend. get it????
remember, i'm just suggesting.
that "industry standard" is keeping us one step behind. hehehehehehehe
my voice here is very little but, at least, that's me. hehehehehehe.
if you don't like me, then that's your problem
1.) no its not an "irony" asking you to share your "original" ways since you've been putting everyone else down for our "unoriginal" ways. check a dictionary for what "irony" means.
2.) the philippines is a bilingual country. quite frankly, having incorrect grammar "because you're a filipino" is quite moronic. that's probably the worst reasoning i've ever heard.
3.) you have nothing to defend? i was referring to defending your arguments. duh.
4.) the "industry standard" is what we cant attain. we're not one step behind, we're several steps behind.
ito ah, this is called an analogy...baka maconfuse ka e.... how can you play basketball without learning how to dribble? if we follow your logic... we shouldn't learn to dribble at all... and you haven't been suggesting ANYTHING because you haven't said anything to back up your claims and statements that we should be ORIGINAL.
5.) "if you don't like me, that's your problem". ang palso ng logic mo. and all the laughing is your defense mechanism. the truth is wala kang naiintindihan sa mga sinasabi namin sayo kaya puro palso mga response mo.
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In the first place, I don't need to argue because I'm only suggesting. It's up to you to take or leave it. It's your choice.... :-)
My reasoning is worst/silly to you because you don't like it. Simple logic. heheheheheheheh Can't help but laugh.. Sorry... :-)
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Hmmmm... there's no better bait than flamebait.
Popcorn, anyone?
Interesting subject this thing about originality because if you really think about it, rock isn't originally filipino, it's mostly a caucasian thing. Same with hiphop which we can say is originally african american so it probably shouldn't fit the profile of what a filipino recording should sound like. Even classical music should then be suspect since Mozart, Beethoven, Tsaikovsky and their ilk were so unkind to bestow their musings upon us. So what exactly should an ORIGINAL FILIPINO RECORDING sound like if we were to REMOVE ALL EXTERNAL INFLUENCES? Strangely enough, gamelans and kulintang come to mind, which is a bit ironic since gamelan music is primarily an indonesian thing.
Unfortunately, we didn't invent recording technology. They did, and for that I am thankful. Sure, all these foreign engineers developed all the techniques and gear needed to make a successful recording, and rightly so, since they were doing it while we, as a race, were fighting among ourselves over who should lead our country during our first taste of independence. Oh look! We're fighting among ourselves RIGHT NOW! I think we would get much further ahead if we stop all this crab mentality.
With the global mentality today, there is no way we can make music that hasn't been externally influenced, either through arranging or through technology. Even our very own kundiman must have been influenced by the spaniards in some way 400 years ago. The best thing that we CAN do is develop our own sound, our own style. The japanese have done it and are succeeding; our own music is also somehow being appreciated by people and races who are NOT filipino, so there. At least we're getting somewhere, albeit somewhat slowly with all this infighting.
Ok... rant over. Popcorn's all popped... all I need is some soda or better yet, brewski. Hey Mikey! Got any Samuel Adams in your neck of the woods? What's on HBO?
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:lol:
my fault for trying to argue with a person who just does not make any sense at all.
argue = to converse/debate about a topic. hindi "away".
haha...sheesh...
talaga? ORIGINAL KA? ANONG SOFTWARE GAMIT MO? GAWANG PINOY? :lol: kanino ka natututo magrecord at mix? sa angking talento mo lang? hahaha... aber, sa sample clip mo, anong tunog ang nainvoke mo? a western sound. that's what. anong gamit mo na software at synths? kanino mo nakita yung style of music at mixing at arranging na yan?
see how hipocritical you are?
you "suggest", you talk, but you cant (defend) or support your statements... (not defend your honor or your name, you moron...supporting your statements)
fascinatedbymusic has just discredited himself. bravo. :lol:
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:-D
wag ka ng mag asal bata. heheheeeeeeeeeh
pahingi nga ng popcorn dyan KitC:mrgreen: yung cheese flavor lang hheheeeeheh
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:lol:
is that the best come-back you can muster?
b-a-r-a-d-o.
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Hmmmm... there's no better bait than flamebait.
Popcorn, anyone?
Interesting subject this thing about originality because if you really think about it, rock isn't originally filipino, it's mostly a caucasian thing. Same with hiphop which we can say is originally african american so it probably shouldn't fit the profile of what a filipino recording should sound like. Even classical music should then be suspect since Mozart, Beethoven, Tsaikovsky and their ilk were so unkind to bestow their musings upon us. So what exactly should an ORIGINAL FILIPINO RECORDING sound like if we were to REMOVE ALL EXTERNAL INFLUENCES? Strangely enough, gamelans and kulintang come to mind, which is a bit ironic since gamelan music is primarily an indonesian thing.
Unfortunately, we didn't invent recording technology. They did, and for that I am thankful. Sure, all these foreign engineers developed all the techniques and gear needed to make a successful recording, and rightly so, since they were doing it while we, as a race, were fighting among ourselves over who should lead our country during our first taste of independence. Oh look! We're fighting among ourselves RIGHT NOW! I think we would get much further ahead if we stop all this crab mentality.
With the global mentality today, there is no way we can make music that hasn't been externally influenced, either through arranging or through technology. Even our very own kundiman must have been influenced by the spaniards in some way 400 years ago. The best thing that we CAN do is develop our own sound, our own style. The japanese have done it and are succeeding; our own music is also somehow being appreciated by people and races who are NOT filipino, so there. At least we're getting somewhere, albeit somewhat slowly with all this infighting.
Ok... rant over. Popcorn's all popped... all I need is some soda or better yet, brewski. Hey Mikey! Got any Samuel Adams in your neck of the woods? What's on HBO?
Sam Adams? Oh yes - but I am drinking Killian's Irish Red right now. I haven't been watching HBO because I just got the box sets for MacGuyver - all seven seasons. I am going to immerse myself in 80s goodness for the weekend!
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Sam Adams? Oh yes - but I am drinking Killian's Irish Red right now. I haven't been watching HBO because I just got the box sets for MacGuyver - all seven seasons. I am going to immerse myself in 80s goodness for the weekend!
curious lang ako. ikaw ba yung avatar mo?
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Kitc, this isn't fair --- I missed most of the action already. Been too busy making too many unoriginal OPM concerts and recordings... Still a good problem, of course (especially with the upcoming wedding). Too much work will always be a good problem, and a very welcome one.
I guess this is the curse of technology -- people using it to further inflate their already-inflated egos, rather that help out people who need a little push. I have had the great honor of being able to work alongside some of the greatest music makers of this country. They too have been confronted with their own set of situations during their times. They too wanted to put our country on the musical map. They too wanted our music to have an identity. They too wanted to come up with music that is both brilliant and original. The process by which they did their jobs was so much more demanding than the way we do it. They wrote out the parts for the band and the orchestra, and the vocalists sang and musicians played without the benefit of CTRL-Z. The thing is, (as I've already pointed out) the music business is as much about business as it is about music. Our industry is confronted with so many more other factors than mere originality, and level of quality. The issue of piracy has made the situation a lot worse -- our industry is barely making any money. You can't argue with the people who buy the records, and you can't question why they buy the type of music they buy, as much as they don't question your musical tastes.
Kung yung mga CD ni Willie Revillame ang gusto nilang bilhin, eh sino naman tayo para pigilan sila? It's also not my type of music, but music is a very personal thing, and a cultural one too.
Parang spaghetti. You can bitch all you want about how unauthentic the taste of spaghetti in our local food chains, but you can't argue with this fact -- mas mabenta yung mga spaghetti na matamis.
People have criticized Sitti -- how unauthentic her 'bossa' is, but again, you can't argue about the fact that it sells.
Don't get me wrong. I too think our music needs to improve. But so does the rest of the situation of our local music industry.
People are able to acquire unauthorized copies of music and music software, whether bought from Greenhills, Quiapo, or downloaded from torrent sites, or P2P programs. They spend a little time with some piece of music software (or worse, one that they won't be likely to afford if they had to get a legal one -- like Nuendo or Sequoia, or complete Waves bundles), and then consider themselves sound engineers, or music-makers.
After that, they give themselves the right to bash others.
That's cool with me. I just wished they showed a little more respect towards those who have been in our industry far longer than they have. We all have the right to criticize, but I have trouble listening to opinions from people who can't put their money where their mouths are.
Oh, by the way, being Filipino is no excuse for wrong grammar. I'm Filipino too. I'm not perfect, but I work hard on my music (inspired by my musical heroes from here and abroad too, like most of my peers), ...and my grammar (also not original -- but heck, it works).
The quest for our own sound is also not a new thing -- but it is as worthwhile right now, and it will continue to be as worthwhile an endeavor as it has always been. We need patience and diligence to have a fighting chance towards such a tremendously big goal.
There's nothing wrong with imitating our musical heroes and influences. The masters of the past have imitated their heroes too.
Some people just want to make music that sounds good to their ears, whether it sounds copied from another piece of music, or not. And yet there are those who want to be original, even if their music sucked.
I don't know if this is just a coincidence, but most of the people who love bashing the works of his fellow artists (as opposed to offering constructive criticism -- but of course it's hard to draw the line), are the ones who either suck, or haven't done anything that matters yet.
Those who know how much of a hard work the process of music making really is, develop a sense of respect to those who have done it in the past, and those who continue being involved.
Guys, we need to change a lot of things -- but let's not make the MT&P forums like the GC forums, if you know what I mean. This section of Philmusic is among the most helpful ones.
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@fascinatedbymusic -- I listened to your sound clip. I think it's pretty good, and I can hear how much hard work you put into it. But it's also far from being an original idea. Some friendly unsolicited advice from a co-forumite -- it will go a long way if we all try to get along. Some people just want to improve their music, and aren't really on the quest to make music history and come up with something original, or employ original methods.
Sometimes we do things the way we do (even if the idea isn't original) only because it works. For example, we most often use snare drums for backbeats, or use chord patterns with bars in multiples of 4, or use triplet patterns, 4/4 or 12/8 time signatures, or 3/4 time and its derivatives, or use the french horn section for that cinematic sound. Those are things that have been, well, "tried and tested". The same thing with recording. Some people just want to make their recordings as good as they hear it in their head. They use the same mics and outboard gear as their idols use, and whether or not they are able to achieve the same sound as their heroes' is a thing that they'll find out on their own. Why use an SM57 on snare drum? Because so many good recordings have made use of it. There's nothing wrong with employing all those devices. That's how we learn. And that's how I think we will be able to improve our music.
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Glad you're back, Marvin! How did the concert go? Sorry I wasn't able to make it to your practice session the day before... hope I didn't disappoint Gerard. One of those days for me :oops: ... again!
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curious lang ako. ikaw ba yung avatar mo?
Oooohh.... down, boy... down! That's his GF in his avatar, dude!
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OT alert -- Martin's concert went very well, and very, very long. 4 hours in fact. After the concert, I had to go home to pack my things coz we had to fly to Tacloban at 5am, for another show there, then had to fly back to Manila the following day, to catch the plane to Zamboanga. After we came home the following day, I had to do a lot of arrangements because I was gonna have a rehearsal the following day for a show I MD'ed for. (It also was a huge success, both based on attendance and the feedback we got -- it was the one held at the Araneta last night -- the one of Sarah, Rachelle Ann, Erik and Christian) It was the very first time in my career that I MD'ed and had to write out the charts for THE ENTIRE CONCERT. :-)
Oh, by the way, I had the great honor of leading an awesome-sounding band: no less than the great Roy Mercado on drums, Ardie De Guzman on guitars, Nikko Rivera on second keys, Junjun Perez on bass, and Rickson Ruiz on percussion. On backup vocals were the members of the vocal group Opera - Manolo Tanquilut, Cecile Aurellado, and Sushi Reyes. Zebedee Zuniga did the vocal arrangements and vocal coaching. :-)
Sorry again for the OT.
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Kung yung mga CD ni Willie Revillame ang gusto nilang bilhin, eh sino naman tayo para pigilan sila? It's also not my type of music, but music is a very personal thing, and a cultural one too.
Parang spaghetti. You can bitch all you want about how unauthentic the taste of spaghetti in our local food chains, but you can't argue with this fact -- mas mabenta yung mga spaghetti na matamis.
People have criticized Sitti -- how unauthentic her 'bossa' is, but again, you can't argue about the fact that it sells.
Awww. Hit ! Yes I hate Sitti and said so unabashedly. It's not the personal kind of hate as in the same way that my love for Camryn Mannheim is not a personal kind of love :D .
I can choose *sana* to ignore her. I won't buy her albums, won't go to her shows, change the channel when she's the guest, but when she becomes a little too pervasive as to appear on quick commercials which I don't have the time to change the channel for...teka ibang usapan na to. Intrusion na talaga to and my right to choose is being undermined. If I can only master that mental process where I can shut her out mentally and detach her nasal, head-ringing, pretentiously jazz diva wannabee voice out of my consciousness I'll be a happy camper. But I can't yet. Enough Sitti bashing here at least. I can't respect her coz the companies behind her can't respect my private right TO NOT HEAR HER VOICE. Nowww...put in your mind the picture of your most hated teacher and watch this person as he slowwwwly scratches the blackboard...can you clearly hear that sound of the fingernails drawn across the blackboard ? Can you imagine what other sensations this sound draws out from your body and mind ? Ewww.
Don't get me wrong. I too think our music needs to improve. But so does the rest of the situation of our local music industry.
People are able to acquire unauthorized copies of music and music software, whether bought from Greenhills, Quiapo, or downloaded from torrent sites, or P2P programs. They spend a little time with some piece of music software (or worse, one that they won't be likely to afford if they had to get a legal one -- like Nuendo or Sequoia, or complete Waves bundles), and then consider themselves sound engineers, or music-makers.
After that, they give themselves the right to bash others.
That's cool with me. I just wished they showed a little more respect towards those who have been in our industry far longer than they have. We all have the right to criticize, but I have trouble listening to opinions from people who can't put their money where their mouths are.
Ironically, and I mean IRONICALLY, piracy is one of the things that make this country great. See how many programmers, administrators, database managers and Office application users this country has turned out ? Almost everybody can use a computer round these parts. Do you think majority of them learned their art from genuine copies of oracle, cisco press, or ms office ? Therefore, these people are not qualified to have an opinion ? The Philippines is a very powerful international IT hub because of the sheer number of IT professionals raised on pirated software. Don't get me wrong, I won't want to offend you (needless to say), I'm just challenging your paradigm.
Same goes with audio. So engineers who learned their chops with pirated software don't have an opinion too ? That's a little too harsh IMHO of course. Whether or not you're to gain respect in your industry is not to be determined by your gear, but by your work.
More "engineers" (or recordists or "audio professionals" whatevers the most appropriate term) in the industry will only lead to improvement. More "wise guys", more ideas, more in-fighting, more challenging of others work (my mix better than yours) will all serve to create tension that can only alleviate the standards of this art. Oh yes. Ironically, man's greatest achievements happened with warfare and competition in mind hahehehe (the jet engine, the computer, the Internet are all warfare-oriented innovations). Even established gurus will have to keep on their toes lest an upcoming hotshot make him and his techniques obsolete di ba ? So it can only be all good. IMHO of course.
I don't know if this is just a coincidence, but most of the people who love bashing the works of his fellow artists (as opposed to offering constructive criticism -- but of course it's hard to draw the line), are the ones who either suck, or haven't done anything that matters yet.
The statement is quite broad, far-reaching and vague, but let me offer my take on one possible meaning.
Whenever an artist puts out music to the public, SPECIALLY IF IT'S FOR SALE, then he or she is offering his work onto the altar of public criticism. Oh yes, criticism is a consumer's right. They can criticize silently by not buying, or they can criticize out loud. Either way is fair game. If any artist wants to be free of criticism be it good or bad, best he keep his music to himself. Di ba ?
Bashing and conflict per se, in my experience, is not necessarily a bad thing, as I've explained somewhere above. Unpleasant as it might become, it is a tool for evolution.
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OT:
@marvinq & KitC,
at least, naintindihan ninyo ang nais kong ipahiwatig. ang hirap kais mag english. kaya sometimes, hindi tayo mag kaintindihan.. hehehehehe your words are well taken.
don't worry, no hurt feelings here. hehehehehehehe...
VERY NICE FORUM YOU HAVE HERE...
MORE POWER TO YOU..!!!!!!
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Oooohh.... down, boy... down! That's his GF in his avatar, dude!
haha...nah, i don't have the guts to put my pic up. in fact, i am not very fond of having my picture taken. hindi ako photogenic eh so pic ng syota na lang.
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Awww. Hit ! Yes I hate Sitti and said so unabashedly. It's not the personal kind of hate as in the same way that my love for Camryn Mannheim is not a personal kind of love :D .
I can choose *sana* to ignore her. I won't buy her albums, won't go to her shows, change the channel when she's the guest, but when she becomes a little too pervasive as to appear on quick commercials which I don't have the time to change the channel for...teka ibang usapan na to. Intrusion na talaga to and my right to choose is being undermined. If I can only master that mental process where I can shut her out mentally and detach her nasal, head-ringing, pretentiously jazz diva wannabee voice out of my consciousness I'll be a happy camper. But I can't yet. Enough Sitti bashing here at least. I can't respect her coz the companies behind her can't respect my private right TO NOT HEAR HER VOICE. Nowww...put in your mind the picture of your most hated teacher and watch this person as he slowwwwly scratches the blackboard...can you clearly hear that sound of the fingernails drawn across the blackboard ? Can you imagine what other sensations this sound draws out from your body and mind ? Ewww.
Ironically, and I mean IRONICALLY, piracy is one of the things that make this country great. See how many programmers, administrators, database managers and Office application users this country has turned out ? Almost everybody can use a computer round these parts. Do you think majority of them learned their art from genuine copies of oracle, cisco press, or ms office ? Therefore, these people are not qualified to have an opinion ? The Philippines is a very powerful international IT hub because of the sheer number of IT professionals raised on pirated software. Don't get me wrong, I won't want to offend you (needless to say), I'm just challenging your paradigm.
Same goes with audio. So engineers who learned their chops with pirated software don't have an opinion too ? That's a little too harsh IMHO of course. Whether or not you're to gain respect in your industry is not to be determined by your gear, but by your work.
More "engineers" (or recordists or "audio professionals" whatevers the most appropriate term) in the industry will only lead to improvement. More "wise guys", more ideas, more in-fighting, more challenging of others work (my mix better than yours) will all serve to create tension that can only alleviate the standards of this art. Oh yes. Ironically, man's greatest achievements happened with warfare and competition in mind hahehehe (the jet engine, the computer, the Internet are all warfare-oriented innovations). Even established gurus will have to keep on their toes lest an upcoming hotshot make him and his techniques obsolete di ba ? So it can only be all good. IMHO of course.
The statement is quite broad, far-reaching and vague, but let me offer my take on one possible meaning.
Whenever an artist puts out music to the public, SPECIALLY IF IT'S FOR SALE, then he or she is offering his work onto the altar of public criticism. Oh yes, criticism is a consumer's right. They can criticize silently by not buying, or they can criticize out loud. Either way is fair game. If any artist wants to be free of criticism be it good or bad, best he keep his music to himself. Di ba ?
Bashing and conflict per se, in my experience, is not necessarily a bad thing, as I've explained somewhere above. Unpleasant as it might become, it is a tool for evolution.
Your points have been well-taken, Jobet. Anyway, I can respect the love or hate you have for particular artists, whether local or foreign, but that's what being a free country is about -- my point regarding this is, we can't really consider majority of the market wrong, just because we don't agree with their preferences, whether it's music, TV shows, or whatever else. I can respect your hate for her, and that's coming from somebody who adores her. Well, except for her singing. :-)
I too am not blind to the "benefits" of pirated software. I hope you'd still have the same feelings if they pirated software that you developed and are selling. You know what I mean. I know you do.:-)
Well, I also get your points about the benefits of criticism, competition, bashing, criticsm etc. -- but I wouldn't want to employ that method if there were some other way (preferably one that involves less friction) to reach whatever goal (improving our music, for instance).
Perhaps I didn't state my point clearly about that vague, far-reaching and broad statement. I'm just not sure if it's just by pure coincidence that the loudest and most frequent critics are the ones who haven't proven anything yet, or are too afraid of being criticized back to finish any work that would expose them. Just an observation -- no statement's being made here.
My invitation to those who think they know how to improve our music -- put your money where your mouth is, do what you think needs to be done, show the way, 'coz if you're right, everybody stands to benefit from your efforts, and I'll stay out of your way, so you can achieve your goal, 'coz that's also what I want anyway. :-) I'm just not too sure -- you might end up sharing the same sentiments with those who have tried before. This is of course only my opinion.
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My invitation to those who think they know how to improve our music -- put your money where your mouth is, do what you think needs to be done, show the way, 'coz if you're right, everybody stands to benefit from your efforts, and I'll stay out of your way, so you can achieve your goal, 'coz that's also what I want anyway. :-) I'm just not too sure -- you might end up sharing the same sentiments with those who have tried before. This is of course only my opinion.
MISMO !!! Thesis statement ! Phrase resolution ! +1. Smiley :D hehehe.
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Those were nice discourses, Jobet, Marvin.
Hope things stay civil from now on. Carry on!
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@marvinq - just had one of the few moments of having enough patience to read posts that are longer than my monitor screen. :-D
sana po dumami ang katulad niyo na mga Pinoy ang pinagmamalaki at hindi lang sarili.
na nagsasabi na madaming magagaling dito. hindi yung nagsasabi na, "madami na ako nakatrabahong malalaking tao"
madami kasi jan nauuna ung daldal bago yung music na dapat prinoproduce nila eh.
siguro po mamamatay muna tayo bago magkaroon ng sariling tatak ang music ng pinoy. mabuti pa ang JAPAN may JAPROCK.
eh kung yung kundiman natin, na kini-claim natin na sariling atin ay galing pa sa mga kastila eh.
tapos ituturo ng mga teacher sa elementary: Mga bata, Ang mga Pilipino ay Malikhain!
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OT:
marvs kelan ang wedding bells? imbitado ba kami? hehe
sabi nga pala ni hazel. pag naluwag daw sked nila ni shinji gettogether daw uli sa SC
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We are so going to go around in circles if we were to pull out what things are originally and unabashedly Filipino.
Simple definitions state something like, if it's written by a Filipino, then it's OPM.
I mean, everything is influenced. Perhaps, even if we started using the alibata instead of the Roman alphabet, historians would still say it's Malay in origin.
So IMHO, let's stop splitting hairs about what is Filipino and what's not because the lines will be varied and ill-defined. :D
Warmest
@marvinq - just had one of the few moments of having enough patience to read posts that are longer than my monitor screen. :-D
sana po dumami ang katulad niyo na mga Pinoy ang pinagmamalaki at hindi lang sarili.
na nagsasabi na madaming magagaling dito. hindi yung nagsasabi na, "madami na ako nakatrabahong malalaking tao"
madami kasi jan nauuna ung daldal bago yung music na dapat prinoproduce nila eh.
siguro po mamamatay muna tayo bago magkaroon ng sariling tatak ang music ng pinoy. mabuti pa ang JAPAN may JAPROCK.
eh kung yung kundiman natin, na kini-claim natin na sariling atin ay galing pa sa mga kastila eh.
tapos ituturo ng mga teacher sa elementary: Mga bata, Ang mga Pilipino ay Malikhain!
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I once tried to integrate traditional rhythms and indigenous music into more modern formats. A bit hard since the time signatures of traditional music aren't exactly 4/4 in a lot of cases. Purists will call this bastardization of our music. I'm thinking that the younger generations will at least get a chance to hear some ancestral rhythms since this is most likely how they will get exposed to traditional music. Kinda reminds me of my daughter's fascination with the shredded version of Canon in D Major. :|
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We are so going to go around in circles if we were to pull out what things are originally and unabashedly Filipino.
Simple definitions state something like, if it's written by a Filipino, then it's OPM.
I mean, everything is influenced. Perhaps, even if we started using the alibata instead of the Roman alphabet, historians would still say it's Malay in origin.
So IMHO, let's stop splitting hairs about what is Filipino and what's not because the lines will be varied and ill-defined. :D
Warmest
Mismo, sir!
Why this need to point out which is Filipino and which is not? Today's music, or at least the majority of Pop music don't even stay faithful anymore to their specific-genre. Not a bad thing. Just stating a fact.
IMHO, efforts should be towards improving the quality of the music, both in terms of content and sound quality. I will enjoy good music of any genre whether it was done by an American or a fellow Asian.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel. The Japanese didn't invent the automobile, but Japanese cars do have their own identity in that particular industry. The same thing with Japanese Jazz and Rock music. They may not satisfy every musical taste, but again, they do have their own sound.
Maybe it's the efforts to sound American that's killing our chances. This is so different from merely being influenced by American music, which I don't consider to be a bad thing.
We hear it from our own mouths --- "Ang galing niyang tumugtog, parang Kano ang dating!..."
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We hear it from our own mouths --- "Ang galing niyang tumugtog, parang Kano ang dating!..."
Dapat ganito, "Ang galing niyang tumugtog, parang PINOY ang dating!...". Darating din tayo dyan. Wag na wag lang tayo susuko.
:mrgreen:
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I once tried to integrate traditional rhythms and indigenous music into more modern formats. A bit hard since the time signatures of traditional music aren't exactly 4/4 in a lot of cases. Purists will call this bastardization of our music. I'm thinking that the younger generations will at least get a chance to hear some ancestral rhythms since this is most likely how they will get exposed to traditional music. Kinda reminds me of my daughter's fascination with the shredded version of Canon in D Major. :|
amen - i am suprised that no one has collaborated heavily with people who specialize in indigenous music. i have long wanted to collect and use local pinoy instruments but i imagine shipping a Kulintang and similar instruments to the US would cost me an arm and a leg..lol. i can can dream and hope that it will become a reality one day tho...
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amen - i am suprised that no one has collaborated heavily with people who specialize in indigenous music. i have long wanted to collect and use local pinoy instruments but i imagine shipping a Kulintang and similar instruments to the US would cost me an arm and a leg..lol. i can can dream and hope that it will become a reality one day tho...
Baka matulongan ka ni Bob Aves.
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amen - i am suprised that no one has collaborated heavily with people who specialize in indigenous music. i have long wanted to collect and use local pinoy instruments but i imagine shipping a Kulintang and similar instruments to the US would cost me an arm and a leg..lol. i can can dream and hope that it will become a reality one day tho...
not really indigenous but lionel/acid42 from electronicamanila was the "electronica" guy for grace nono's band while he was still here (he's in the u.s. now). he also had a lot of kundiman or indigenous music charts that he scanned i think. he was just giving them away to people who were interested in making something out of them.
i worked with some college kids here in davao who were of mandaya(?) heritage. i basically tracked some kuglong/hegalong playing, some gimba(drums) and the singer's chanting and made loops out of them and wrote some music around it with beats and synths and such. it was okay i guess but as a cultural statement it was about as authentic as german moreno is german :(
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amen - i am suprised that no one has collaborated heavily with people who specialize in indigenous music. i have long wanted to collect and use local pinoy instruments but i imagine shipping a Kulintang and similar instruments to the US would cost me an arm and a leg..lol. i can can dream and hope that it will become a reality one day tho...
Some artists have gone this route already -- among the more famous ones are: Grace Nono and Bob Aves, and Joey Ayala. Anyway, opinions about this are varied, depending mostly on the point of view. The indigenous people aren't particularly impressed or amused, because those instruments aren't only used for musical purposes. Their use of those instruments are more spiritual. And besides, when those instruments do get used in a more contemporary music situation, most of them are just for rhythmic purposes (probably because the harmonic element of the kulintang isn't very cooperative with the 12 tone scale), and just to add flavor (as opposed to using those instruments as main ingredients to make music).
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Maybe it's the efforts to sound American that's killing our chances. This is so different from merely being influenced by American music, which I don't consider to be a bad thing.
We hear it from our own mouths --- "Ang galing niyang tumugtog, parang Kano ang dating!..."
Hi sir Marvin!
I was talking to someone and he said a variation of that phrase...to your wonder boy drummer.
Whatever he meant by it, I would be both glad and bothered...
One more thing... Bob Aves is an anomaly among Filipino musicians... that rare breed!
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Some artists have gone this route already -- among the more famous ones are: Grace Nono and Bob Aves, and Joey Ayala. Anyway, opinions about this are varied, depending mostly on the point of view. The indigenous people aren't particularly impressed or amused, because those instruments aren't only used for musical purposes. Their use of those instruments are more spiritual. And besides, when those instruments do get used in a more contemporary music situation, most of them are just for rhythmic purposes (probably because the harmonic element of the kulintang isn't very cooperative with the 12 tone scale), and just to add flavor (as opposed to using those instruments as main ingredients to make music).
i can imagine it would be a nightmare trying to make those samples fit into 12 tone scale based song..lol
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i can imagine it would be a nightmare trying to make those samples fit into 12 tone scale based song..lol
Yes. And even if you tried matching the fundamental pitches with the 12-tone scale, the harmonics would be another story...
Hi sir Marvin!
I was talking to someone and he said a variation of that phrase...to your wonder boy drummer.
Whatever he meant by it, I would be both glad and bothered...
One more thing... Bob Aves is an anomaly among Filipino musicians... that rare breed!
That's exactly my point. The effort to sound Western is a thing that's being dictated by the target market itself. Even a fellow musician told me in one of our conversations how he didn't like the orchestrations done by musicians of the past, because they were too Pinoy-sounding...
It really is a very big and difficult task to find that Pinoy sound, and it will be met with so much resistance.
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wow daming mga master dito na sumasagot.. wow watch na lng ako ... pick up some ideas hehehhe..... sana meron ditong mag seminar about dat.... libre para masaya heheheh... jk lng.. sana e affordable ang price ....
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for me, isang cause yung "pwede na" mentality. siguro dahil sa pagmamadali, or sa dami ng gagawin... tendency is stick na lang tayo sa satisfactory level ng mixing.
compared sa napakaraming "perfectionists" abroad, kailangan na rin nating itaas ang level ng "OC-ness"...
(just my 2c, mga sir! :) )
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What is the Achilles heel of our recordings? record label :-D
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hi guys. makikisawsaw lang. i am an aspiring musician who has proven nothing and has not recorded anything of radioplay worth but i have lofty dreams.
para akong nag martin luther king speech nito. i had a dream!!! hehe
pero seriously pangarap ko talaga na iangat ang pinoy music tapos kung mangyari yun gusto ko kasama pangalan ko sa wikipedia page ng PINOY ROCK.
i want to be one of the innovators of pinoy rock music. much like how the beatles influenced modern popular music, how robert johnson influenced blues or how metallica and slayer influenced trash metal.
gusto ko makabuo ng sound na kapag marinig ng foreigner ay sasabihin nila: "now thats awesome filipino shet right there". mapapamura sila.
pero how do i do that? how do i use guitar-driven rock and innovate it a step further?
eto yung idea ko: makikinig ako sa sepultura, radiohead, joey ayala, bush, creed, beatles, juan de la cruz, tapos kay sir joey ayala. bakit sepultura? kasi brazilian band sila na napaka influential sa metal scene. yung si thom yorke, many singers have copied his vocal technique. i will listen to bush and creed kasi may "natural distortion" ang boses ko. i have a husky singing voice. or maybe not husky = sintonado. bakit ako makikinig sa beatles? kasi everything that has come forth since the 1970s is a derivative of beatles sound. makikinig ako sa juan de la cruz tapos, freddie aguilar at kay joey ayala kasi they epitomize the pinoy sound for me. pero i will take everything a step or two further.
and also, i will compose my songs in tagalog. hindi ko alam kung bakit mas mahirap mag compose ng tagalog. mas madali akong gumawa ng kanta in english pero iniiwasan ko yun kasi nga gusto ko ng tagalog. tapos gagawa din ako ng mga kantang bicolano kasi i was born and raised in bicol. nung mga unang taon ko dito sa manila, mapapansin mo yung first language influence kapag nagsasalita ako ng tagalog. sabi nga nila may tono daw ako pag nagtatagalog.
dagdag ko lang na gusto ko ilagay ang influence ng yano sa mga kanta ko. idol ko si dong abay eh. galing niya.
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hi guys. makikisawsaw lang. i am an aspiring musician who has proven nothing and has not recorded anything of radioplay worth but i have lofty dreams.
para akong nag martin luther king speech nito. i had a dream!!! hehe
pero seriously pangarap ko talaga na iangat ang pinoy music tapos kung mangyari yun gusto ko kasama pangalan ko sa wikipedia page ng PINOY ROCK.
i want to be one of the innovators of pinoy rock music. much like how the beatles influenced modern popular music, how robert johnson influenced blues or how metallica and slayer influenced trash metal.
gusto ko makabuo ng sound na kapag marinig ng foreigner ay sasabihin nila: "now thats awesome filipino shet right there". mapapamura sila.
pero how do i do that? how do i use guitar-driven rock and innovate it a step further?
eto yung idea ko: makikinig ako sa sepultura, radiohead, joey ayala, bush, creed, beatles, juan de la cruz, tapos kay sir joey ayala. bakit sepultura? kasi brazilian band sila na napaka influential sa metal scene. yung si thom yorke, many singers have copied his vocal technique. i will listen to bush and creed kasi may "natural distortion" ang boses ko. i have a husky singing voice. or maybe not husky = sintonado. bakit ako makikinig sa beatles? kasi everything that has come forth since the 1970s is a derivative of beatles sound. makikinig ako sa juan de la cruz tapos, freddie aguilar at kay joey ayala kasi they epitomize the pinoy sound for me. pero i will take everything a step or two further.
and also, i will compose my songs in tagalog. hindi ko alam kung bakit mas mahirap mag compose ng tagalog. mas madali akong gumawa ng kanta in english pero iniiwasan ko yun kasi nga gusto ko ng tagalog. tapos gagawa din ako ng mga kantang bicolano kasi i was born and raised in bicol. nung mga unang taon ko dito sa manila, mapapansin mo yung first language influence kapag nagsasalita ako ng tagalog. sabi nga nila may tono daw ako pag nagtatagalog.
dagdag ko lang na gusto ko ilagay ang influence ng yano sa mga kanta ko. idol ko si dong abay eh. galing niya.
on your premise bakit mahirap mag compose ng tagalog(or shall i say filipino, in whatever dialect for that matter)
simple lang, our educational system and society as a whole is english driven.
mga menu in english, newspaper and magazines, road signs, hand book, our constitution for that matter, our ads. so although we speak filipino everyday, its more of the slang and colloquial version of it.
but at the end of the day, is it about the medium of delivery? it could be, but not always. what makes filipino is the content. i don know a lot of american citizens learning the filipino language, and they might be more adept in creatively writing in it because of technical ability and skills learned. but it won't make their work filipino in the truest sense. just my 2 cents.