TALK @ PhilMusic.com - The Online Home of the Pinoy Musician
The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: DarkHorse on April 11, 2007, 12:26:27 PM
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who knows these stuff?...i wud like to learn in too..hehe..ynx mga sirs!
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you will need:
-a pc (laptop for portability) with powerful cpu and lots of memory
-software synths or samplers
-low latency soundcard/audio interface
-keyboard controller
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I basically have one setup. Pretty easy to do.
Signal path:
1) Axiom MIDI Keyboard connected to Apple Macbook via USB.
2) Second keyboard connected to Axiom via MIDI cable
3) External sound card connected to Macbook via USB
4) External sound card connected to amp or mixer via instrument cable (PL or XLR)
NI Kontakt 2 and Reason for sound modules
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ok tnx..how powerful is the recomended cpu for almost seamless performance on live apps? and is a 512mb ddram enough?
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512Mb works. But frouned upon sometimes, going with 1Gb would be your best bet.
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PC's for live performance -- I've tried it a few times already. Although nothing really went wrong, I'm still not sure if I wanna use my laptop (T7400 w/ 2gb RAM) in a gig on a regular basis. Too many things can go wrong -- memory or hard drive failure, software or hardware bugs, etc.. I'd dread to see that happen on a crucial part of the show. I've stopped acquiring hardware synths ever since I got my xv3080... but lately I've been getting new stuff (some of them 2nd hand) to upgrade my live stuff -- a Motif Rack, a Triton Extreme and a Fantom XR. Then I sold the XV.
If you really need to use a PC, I'd say for the time being, try not to use disk streaming. At least you're eliminating one variable, one thing that might fail in the middle of a gig. Use reason, or if you have to stream from the hard disk, use a large buffer or preload size, to minimize as much streaming as you can. In other words, try to get your RAM to at least 2GB, so you can load a lot of samples.
As for me, i'll load my samples either on the Triton Extreme (96MB) or the Fantom XR (528MB). When I need more, I'll pass on the gig to somebody who has more... haha.
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... but lately I've been getting new stuff (some of them 2nd hand) to upgrade my live stuff -- a Motif Rack, a Triton Extreme and a Fantom XR. Then I sold the XV.
A Yamaha, Korg and Roland... wala nang hahanapin pa (maybe except some exotic analog stuff)!
Haven't tried using a pc set-up live. Tried it at home but I had problems with latency.
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yeah. that's the thing. getting your pc to the lowest latency possible, but keeping it stable seems to be the main issue here.
...got the triton extreme and the fantom xr for a really good price...
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Nothing beats hardware synths and modules for stability. In live concert situations, most pc's are used offstage and the systems are DUPLICATED right down to the hardware, software and audio interface; even UPS are duplicated (if you don't believe me, try to track down articles by Mike McKnight in Keyboard magazine during the Madonna and Mariah Carey tours). These pc's are synced and configured in such a way that when one fails, the other will cut in seamlessly.
The problem with pc's and laptops is that you have to specifically configure them for audio use. Stability is increased by removing unneeded programs and drivers. Security is increased by not connecting to a network or the internet. Even antivirus programs that reside in memory can have a hit on cpu cycles.
If you are only doing midi, 512 megs of ram is sufficient but if you are highly sample based, 2 gigs is the norm. Marvin is right about disk streaming, you need a fairly fast HD to ensure that samples are delivered when you need them; 4200 rpm disks are a no-no.
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@kit - took my cue from mike mcknight's articles too... when i start using a laptop for my live gigs, that only means i have a duplicate setup somewhere nearby... either that or i'm suicidal... haha
until such time, hardware is king...
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Well, there is such a thing as the MuseResearch Receptor (http://www.museresearch.com/receptor.php)
(http://www.museresearch.com/i/receptor_front_468.jpg)
It can run vsts and fx in realtime. It's basically a rackmount pc with built-in converters and midi interface and an OS dedicated for running vsts only. It can be run as is, but you can attach a monitor, mouse and qwerty keyboard if you like.
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...or if you have more money, and you think modules are so unsexy, try the neko, either with core 2 duos or dual core xeons.
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I run a Core 2 Duo setup with 2GB RAM and samples are in a external firewire HDD. No probles with latency at all.
Each to his own.
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Depending on the type of program that will be used live, the computer specs will vary greatly. Midi/audio playback is as simple as it gets with vsts and samplers imposing greater loads on the computer. Latency is actually a function of the audio interface and its drivers. It doesn't matter if one is using a mac or a pc, the same safeguards should apply when using a computer live such as ensuring data and hardware integrity, and having sufficient backup in case of failure. Often, having a lean and mean setup ensures the least amount of probables that can go wrong. I guess the most sage advice I can offer when using a pc live is: YMMV and have a backup.
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i've used my laptop live with ableton before in conjunction with hardware and kit is right, you really do have to streamline your computer for audio otherwise many things can go wrong in the middle of a show. I am still very old school in that i will not put everything I have going in a set just on a laptop, maybe the foundation of the tracks I will be playing but not enough to bog the thing down when I layer sounds and beats live. As great as Ableton is at live remixing, you are still relying on CPU power to pull off sounds without a hardware synth module to play the parts on stage. Besides, I still like tweaking the odd knobs on synths and bashing out beats on an 808 and 909 piped through a Sherman Filterbank.
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I think I've read somewhere that BT gigs with a laptop, but has his entire show backed up on audio, just in case something goes wrong with the computer...
that's the thing... A SOLID BACKUP PLAN needs to be always in place...
...something you need not worry about (most of the time, at least) as far as hardware keyboards and modules are concerned.... well, unless somebody pours beer on your keyboard.... but since that's less likely to happen than a hardware failure on your computer, insurance is less relevant.
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I think I've read somewhere that BT gigs with a laptop, but has his entire show backed up on audio, just in case something goes wrong with the computer...
that's the thing... A SOLID BACKUP PLAN needs to be always in place...
hehe... my kumpare and I have our entire set in a small mp3 player, ready at a moment's notice. :wink:
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I think I've read somewhere that BT gigs with a laptop, but has his entire show backed up on audio, just in case something goes wrong with the computer...
that's the thing... A SOLID BACKUP PLAN needs to be always in place...
...something you need not worry about (most of the time, at least) as far as hardware keyboards and modules are concerned.... well, unless somebody pours beer on your keyboard.... but since that's less likely to happen than a hardware failure on your computer, insurance is less relevant.
yeah, I've seen Brian live a few times and he has changed his setup over the years from a hardcore hardware rig to a Mac and an Ozonic setup. He used to have a custom stutter controller too but i haven't seen him use that lately. The guy uses Ableton live for his DJ work in Laptop Symphony and his regular DJ gigs.
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bt's been known to fake his live performances though
unless somebody pours beer on your keyboard....
i read that the keyboards in nin's touring rigs are all waterproofed thoroughly, sabi ng tech you can literally pour a bottle of water into the keys with no damage
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i read that the keyboards in nin's touring rigs are all waterproofed thoroughly, sabi ng tech you can literally pour a bottle of water into the keys with no damage
kaya pala sa woodstock 99 at sa aatchb dvd, pinapaliguan nila yung keyboard :evil:
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mismo...tapos pag pa repair nya yung keys nya nasa kontrata na hindi pwede kopyahin yung patches/samples
meron pa syang isang keyboard na nakalagay "do not repair this in any way!!!"
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mismo...tapos pag pa repair nya yung keys nya nasa kontrata na hindi pwede kopyahin yung patches/samples
meron pa syang isang keyboard na nakalagay "do not repair this in any way!!!"
you are right. they did an article on what it takes to be NIN's keyboard and sound tech on Keyboard mag during the Fragility tour..the guys basically had to gut EVRYTHING down to the circuit boards to coat them in polyu covering to make sure nothing fluid would seep into the innards of their tech gear on stage. they also did an article on the guitars and since trent used to throw around a lot of guitars, most of the les pauls, dean, and ESP guitars were damaged to some extent on the tour. the playability depended on how badly damaged they got by the end of a show. if the structure was intact and could be glued to reinforce it, they did so, if not, the guitar was sold for charity on Ebay.
NIN's newest keys guy-Allessandro Cortini-built his own rig like Charlie Clouser did his when he toured with NIN last season so I imagine the same standards applied into the design of the gear to make it withstand the shows. I saw the guys live for this tour and they are still as crazy as you would expect...Trent doesn't jump on the guitars or keyboards anymore though from what I hear...
bt's been known to fake his live performances though
he is? where did you read that? from the times I have seen him live the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee - remixes, glitches, messups and all. if I see him at a local gig i might ask the guy if there is truth to this..lol
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wow, if some people go to all this trouble to "gig-proof" their synths, imagine how much more work needs to get done to make a laptop (or even a destop for that matter) gig-worthy.
told sir kitc the same thing -- i tried using my laptop for a few gigs, and while nothing wrong really happened, i was never really at peace... it felt like something was bound to get screwed up sooner or later...
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wow, if some people go to all this trouble to "gig-proof" their synths, imagine how much more work needs to get done to make a laptop (or even a destop for that matter) gig-worthy.
told sir kitc the same thing -- i tried using my laptop for a few gigs, and while nothing wrong really happened, i was never really at peace... it felt like something was bound to get screwed up sooner or later...
well, gig proofing for names like NIN and Madonna are a serious business because these guys sell out stadium shows and, if you you take NIN as an example, their shows are known for being violent as well as intricate and beautiful to observe. during the early days (Downward Spiral) I remember trent used to have amps on stage but shows got so violent after that that the amps eventually started getting dwindled down to nothing until he used DI as an exclusive way to get his guitar sounds on tour because having an amp or cab on stage was just going to get doused with water or trashed by someone jumping into the face of the rack cabinet housing the gear. During the Fragility tour, I saw trent jump into a keyboard feet first after he propped it 45 degress on the drum riser. i doubt any gig proofing would have rescued that synth from demise but it gives you an idea what to expect if you end up working for the guy as a tech...
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bt's been known to fake his live performances though
he is? where did you read that? from the times I have seen him live the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee - remixes, glitches, messups and all. if I see him at a local gig i might ask the guy if there is truth to this..lol
its pretty much common knowledge at em411, livepa.org, dancetech and other production sites that the major players (chems, crystal method, bt, prodigy) mostly run off a dat with some triggering and knob twisting going on...orbital and autechre are one of the few who actually do it "live"...of course how live is "live" ba talaga when we're talking sequencers etc?
the reason being is that these guys have a huge operation going on and any live mishaps could result in less than favorable reviews which could damage their rep, theres just too much at stake to have a bad show...hence the reliance on dat
"the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee" well see that would explain a lot...bt's music is really intricate and it would be a logistical nightmare to pull of every little tweak and stutter live...of course everyones using ableton now so i imagine that makes it much easier and they are probably doing a lot more "live" now
the epitome of live electronic for me is someone like squarepusher, it seems like he plays a lot of prerecorded tracks but theres a lot of live bass improv going on and live fx freekery
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bt's been known to fake his live performances though
he is? where did you read that? from the times I have seen him live the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee - remixes, glitches, messups and all. if I see him at a local gig i might ask the guy if there is truth to this..lol
its pretty much common knowledge at em411, livepa.org, dancetech and other production sites that the major players (chems, crystal method, bt, prodigy) mostly run off a dat with some triggering and knob twisting going on...orbital and autechre are one of the few who actually do it "live"...of course how live is "live" ba talaga when we're talking sequencers etc?
the reason being is that these guys have a huge operation going on and any live mishaps could result in less than favorable reviews which could damage their rep, theres just too much at stake to have a bad show...hence the reliance on dat
"the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee" well see that would explain a lot...bt's music is really intricate and it would be a logistical nightmare to pull of every little tweak and stutter live...of course everyones using ableton now so i imagine that makes it much easier and they are probably doing a lot more "live" now
the epitome of live electronic for me is someone like squarepusher, it seems like he plays a lot of prerecorded tracks but theres a lot of live bass improv going on and live fx freekery
some things that i would like to note just to clarify things: since you mentioned Orbital, there is a bit of info I know about the group's live rig because they are one of the few electronica groups that still use a hardware sequencer for things that can't be played live with hardware synths. the model that they use is particular, the Alesis MMT-8 (KitC might know about these), which is basically like a drum machine that loops pre-produced loops that you use in tracks from the studio. Orbital are not alone in their use of hardware sequencers and the extent of how much is ona sequencer depends on what you you deem as the foundation of your tracks that you can play over with your synths.
the live use of sequencers by electronic acts is what sets people apart from being just plain DJs. so if you don't play records and do live remixing, this is as close to "live"playing as you are going to get. also, people might run audio off a dat but as far as I know you can't trigger audio off a dat because a dat is pretty much like a casette tape in principle. now, you could do triggering with rack mounted samplers like the stuff Akai has around that are still being widely used and I have done that with my midi keys and v-drum triggers.
"the guy has done his set live pretty much to the tee." this statement was meant to explain that BT has stayed pretty much true to the live ethic that has helped him gain fans, ie. he does live remixing and extended versions of songs with generous amounts of edits. he does DJ gigs once in a while too but his rig has stayed consistent (to a tee) when he does live shows. i saw his laptop symphony show and his setup is becoming smaller with only particular pieces of kit to do stutter edits live using a system similar to the laser MIDI detector on the Roland MC-505. as far as I know, BT, Electric Sky Church, Telefon Tel Aviv, DeepSky, Orbital, The Crystal Method still do a lot of live shows that vary quite a bit from set to set and use quite a bit of hardware gear.
Now there will always be elements that will need to be run off a sequencer, this much is inevitable. i know BT runs stutter edits with a live hardware interface and I can only imagine how easier it would make my life if I had that tool. If I could do that, I wouldn't run audio for stutter but manipulate it live instead. Stutter edits, depending on the syncopation of the clips, will take me anywhere from 30 minutes to two hours to complete...sheeeesh.
for me, the epitome of a live electronic show is Aphex Twin. A close second is Tokyo's Boom Boom Satellites. I saw these guys at the Zep in Tokyo and they are absolutely sick.
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the Alesis MMT-8
im as familiar with the mmt8 as anyone who doesnt actually own one can be :-) came close to buying one (or 2) before but i went with a kawai q80ex, also a well regarded "live" sequencer
the live use of sequencers by electronic acts is what sets people apart from being just plain DJs
well yeah youre preaching to the choir here...i run the q80ex, triggering an a3000 sampler and various analog and digital synths, also play some keys live, lots of knob tweaking and triggering samples and i just picked up a drum machine for more live tweakery...of course i havent played out in a while...
If I could do that, I wouldn't run audio for stutter but manipulate it live instead. Stutter edits, depending on the syncopation of the clips, will take me anywhere from 30 minutes to two hours to complete...sheeeesh
if youre not adverse to using computers live (or want to glitch out in the studio) check dbglitch, its freeware that makes it almost too easy...im not 100% enamored with glitch, but this is a fun piece of code...its midi controllable too, really cool
for me, the epitome of a live electronic show is Aphex Twin
yeah richard james and tom jenkinson for me are really cut from the same cloth but squarepusher is just so over the top electronics mixed with live playing, so its s.pusher by a narrow margin for me 8-)
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i always end up thread jacking instead of starting my own threads :(
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i tried dbglitch and I actualy use it for weird syncopation. Josh Eustis (Telefon Tel Aviv) turned me onto it a few years back. For a long time, I was really resistant to using lappys to do work on the road because most of my stuff is very much hardware based so i figured i couldn't do as much productively if i were sitting at home or in a studio environment. much has changed to say the least. there had to be something better to do waiting for flights to board than sleeping and reading everything the airport bookstore has to offer...
holy mackarel, a kawai q80ex? i haven't seen those in a while. if there is anything really good about hardware sequencers, it is that they will run like a lapdog consistently.
i haven't done a live electronic show in years. i mainly DJ these days because i do most of my live playing with an instrument versus doing the electronica bit now. i still love electronica but the ease of transporting guitar or bass gear is much better to watch over than multiple pieces of electronic kit. basically, i transitioned into more of a studio head years ago when the electronica/ warehouse rave underground began becoming more mainstream during the mid 90's in the US. the crowd began to change and there was more coporate tomfoolery going around than I liked to be associated with...
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i hear you...wala naman talagang electronic "scene" dito sa pinas e (lalo na sa davao where im at) just little pockets of resistance here and there
there is a fairly active group of musicians centered around the electronica manila yahoo groups
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there is still a scene for electronica here in the US but every city is different and the new music coming out now in the underground is not as brash and groundbreaking as it once was back in the early-mid 90s. Broken beat was making some sort of scene but nothing really came out of it.
i still frequently go to the Winter Music Conference in Miami or the Detriot Electronic Festival just to check things out for the trade shows and production seminars but the music hasn't changed much in years. The music scene in Japan was much more vibrant from what I could sense when I was these last year. Then again, Japan's music climate is always chock full of weird but interesting stuff that is a refreshing change from what I am exposed to at home. i feel that it is always nice to see and hear what others around the world have to offer as far as making new styles of music and remixing old stuff into interesting new genres.
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i hear you...wala naman talagang electronic "scene" dito sa pinas e (lalo na sa davao where im at) just little pockets of resistance here and there
marami ring gusto talaga magsimula, kaya lang shempre alam nating lahat na mahal ang gamit...kaya ayun, nauuwi sa emo at rock ang mga tao kasi nga naman yung dalawang libo mo dalin mo lang sa sta. mesa eh ready to rock ka na. of course, hindi rin maganda yung gitara na yun but hey, nakapagsimula ka sa music mo. whereas sa electronic music, hmmm..anu-ano ba ang kailangan mo para magstart? depende, but i'm sure it costs more than a slammer guitar from sta. mesa! ü peace.
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It depends, Kim. If you are an avid collector of Future Music mag especially the ones that come with cds/dvds, their reader demos are sometimes inspiring. I have this one cd from a few years back where the contributors were a couple of 16-yr old kids using a soundblaster 16 and tracker software, with a Pentium 166 and little else. The track they produced was truly surprising considering the tools they had on hand.
We should not allow ourselves to be bound by what we think we need. We should allow ourselves to explore fully by what we have on hand, preferably exceeding what it was originally meant for.
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yup aside from the pc you can get started with pretty much zero cost...
i got lots of cool stuff done with an amd k6 450mhz, 128mb ram, yamaha waveforce soundcard (with onboard xg synth!) then i got some hardware synths, a decent soundcard and my output plummetted :(
most people who want to get into electronic music kasi always automatically think laptop or electribes etc. good tools but not the be all end all...theres a lot of cool old midi gear out there for cheap....
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basically..i just want a pc based soundmodule..coz a decent module costs a bajillion bucks...i dont hav that luxury....and my vintage (roland) SC55 and P55 and A-30 is really crappin out on me for like 3 years now...and i want to bash it real hard..but i cant coz its the only gear i hav..hehe...unlucky me....anyway..tnx for all yr help..really appreciate it...really..sana yumamn ako..so id get a EMU proteus running an Maudio prokeys....yun lang..masaya na ko...!..hehe!
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proteus? well, that one is more powerful in software form. there's be no advantage to using the hardware version, other than being able to use it without a computer. just my opinion.
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coz a decent module costs a bajillion bucks...
did you miss my sig? two classic pieces that dont cost a bajillion bucks? :wink:
reminds me of a joke: rumsfeld was making his daily report to bush. he says: "mr president, im happy to report that in our latest operation only 3 brazilians were killed". bush says angrily "YOURE HAPPY?!?" then he turned away and seemed almost in tears. finally he turned to rumsfeld and said: "don, give it to me straight...a brazillion is more than a billion right?"
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chuck..
yes i read yr post..tnx for that...but most of the guys saying here is that it has to be a pc with super powers..or sumthing like that...like 2 gigs of ram..a pentium 4..top end sound card...and it has to be a dedicated "for module use only" pc...for it to perform smooth with no hindrance...coz its a live gig ryt?...thats y i said it costs a bajillion bucks..hehe...but again..tnx for yr info...and i think ima try that one of these days...
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exactly what kind of software are you thinking of running on that 'super' pc?
if you want to spend bajillions (actually, only $1999 or P100k), get yourself one of these, Openlabs Miko (http://www.openlabs.com/):
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4749/510/1600/miko2.jpg)
no different from spending on a brand new Triton Pro or Fantom X8.
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@Darkhorse
i meant to draw attention to my signature, where i have a sampler and synth module for sale
ill stop advertising now :-D
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@chuck
a ok....i see...
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what a great read!!!!
learned a lot from this thread... keep em coming guys...
i saw a DIY pc sound module running vsynth i think not sure though... looks cool kasi the lcd is embedded onto the opc case
para talaga cyang vsynth na rack...
hanapin ko pa ung link...
up muna to para may makabasa pang mga noobs... :) tnx po!
~peace po
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up to this very informative thread!
:)
any open-source alternatives for NI Kontakt/Halion that you can suggest, masters?