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The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: zphunkz on September 11, 2007, 09:35:02 AM
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TOPIC: "Difference between Alnico Single coils to Ceramic Single coils"
Please share some tips how to distinguish "ALNICO pickups and CERAMIC pickups" SINGLE Coils for Strats and Telecasts :?
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magkaiba sila ng magnet hehe.
yung alnico pole pieces lang yata walang plate sa ilalim, yung ceramic meron.
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ALNICO= Aluminum Nickel Cobalt- base on my experience usually ang mga alnico pick ups ko sa strat n tele ko mas responsive ang tunog... mas clear and mas twangy... responsive in a sense when especially when you are using an overdrive, nagrerespond yung pick up sa picking ko... unlike dati nung nka ceramic ako... walang response palaging matapang tunog. at ang mganda pa nito rechargeable ang magnet ng alnico... :) may bago na nga e SANICO hehehe Samarium Nickel Cobalt i think...
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may bago na nga e SANICO hehehe Samarium Nickel Cobalt i think...
that's SCN. Fender acronym for samarium cobalt noiseless or samarium cobalt neodymium or whatnot.
anyway, a magnet is a magnet. it doesn't emit any sort of sound by itself.
the reason why ceramic pickups have that bad rep is that pickup manufacturers slapped them on designs meant for alnico magnets. with the right design around it, a ceramic-equipped pickup is capable of matching anything an alnico pickup can come up with.
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http://www.kinman.com/html/toneWorkshop/perfectGuitar.htm#magnets
Everything you need to know...
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that's SCN. Fender acronym for samarium cobalt noiseless or samarium cobalt neodymium or whatnot.
anyway, a magnet is a magnet. it doesn't emit any sort of sound by itself.
the reason why ceramic pickups have that bad rep is that pickup manufacturers slapped them on designs meant for alnico magnets. with the right design around it, a ceramic-equipped pickup is capable of matching anything an alnico pickup can come up with.
According to all the things Ive read Alnico does influence the sound...
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Of course, it does. I'm not sure where I said otherwise.
Again, built using the same design, an alnico pickup will sound different compared to a ceramic pickup. The classic Fender single coil design was meant for alnico magnets, which is the reason the same design sounded "harsh" when ceramics were used.
So, what I am saying is that a pickup has to be designed differently when ceramic magnets are to be used in order to stand up to the alleged sweetness, clarity and other such mojo associated with the alnico magnet.
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anyway, a magnet is a magnet. it doesn't emit any sort of sound by itself.
Of course, it does. I'm not sure where I said otherwise.
Ah Ok...
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Pare, magkaiba yata yung influence the sound kesa sa emit a sound by itself.
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Pare, magkaiba yata yung influence the sound kesa sa emit a sound by itself.
Yun na nga na gets ko na ibig mo sabihin kaya sabi ko ah ok
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onga. they're magnets. walang silang sariling tone. :lol:
i expect you'll hear a lot of people say "alnico = warm, vintage. ceramic = hot, modern". thats cow dung. its a magnet wrapped in wire. it boils down to construction, i think. manufacturers can make pickups with alnico magnets sound just as focused and modern as an X2N or evolution. and they can make some with ceramic magnets sound as warm and open as antiquities. marketing lang yun. mas mahal kasi yung CO portion ng alnico. so they save it for particular sounds people would be willing to pay for. usually yung lower gain, less midrange-focused sounds like the old PAF/nancy/'54-'57 stuff catering to the crowd that'll pay for stuff made "the way they used to make 'em". suckers like me :lol:
take a ceramic and alnico magnet of the same size and strength. wind them up on the same machine with the same wire guage. an equal number of turns. kung meron man difference sa tunog yun, mas malaki pa siguro yung effect on tone ng pag adjust ng distance ng pole pieces from the strings.
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onga. they're magnets. walang silang sariling tone. :lol:
i expect you'll hear a lot of people say "alnico = warm, vintage. ceramic = hot, modern". thats cow dung. its a magnet wrapped in wire. it boils down to construction, i think. manufacturers can make pickups with alnico magnets sound just as focused and modern as an X2N or evolution. and they can make some with ceramic magnets sound as warm and open as antiquities. marketing lang yun. mas mahal kasi yung CO portion ng alnico. so they save it for particular sounds people would be willing to pay for. usually yung lower gain, less midrange-focused sounds like the old PAF/nancy/'54-'57 stuff catering to the crowd that'll pay for stuff made "the way they used to make 'em". suckers like me :lol:
take a ceramic and alnico magnet of the same size and strength. wind them up on the same machine with the same wire guage. an equal number of turns. kung meron man difference sa tunog yun, mas malaki pa siguro yung effect on tone ng pag adjust ng distance ng pole pieces from the strings.
Check mo yung link ni Kinman na pinost ko sabi nya meron talagang influence ang alnico sa sound unlike ceramic na walang effect sa tone...
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the materials used....
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ok nalinawan na ang mga katanungan ko..mga ser baka naman may pics kau dyan ng alnico and ceramic? kasi wala ako makita sa internet na view ung ilalim na magnet na sinasabi nyo eh..pakki post naman mga ser kung ok lang po. :-D
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i think the difference lies on the concentration of magnetic fields emitted by the materials. weak or strong magnetic field could definitely affect the sound produced on the induction of current on the coil itself.
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Check mo yung link ni Kinman na pinost ko sabi nya meron talagang influence ang alnico sa sound unlike ceramic na walang effect sa tone...
ah ok. :D
oddly enough, though, yung dimarzio breed (bridge, alnico 5) and ibanez powersound (bridge, ceramic) both act the same way pag nilalapit ko sa refrigerator door. they both stick. :-D
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I agree with nate's and al's points. Since these two magnets have different magnetic properties, a dsigner would definitely have to base his designs - number of windings etc - on the properties of the raw material. Now, it does make sense that using a design meant for alnico magnets will not work with ceramics, and vice versa.
I believe that this is also the case for the debate between ceramic and alnico speakers.
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so I guess, ceramic PUs are discriminated?
Jeff Beck's tone is very much to die for, his SCs are ceramic if I remember correctly.
I don't know on the comment on dynamics and response, but my best greco strat (w/c I stupidly sold but wisely needed to) had ceramic PUs that I found later on before selling it. I never even noticed it was ceramic, and it was a match made in heaven against the wood and craftmanship.
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konti pa at magiging debate nanaman ito nag preference hahaha.
yeah I'l go with Al's... their just magnets they are not pickup themselves
syempre alnico magnets influence the tone or sound in general, but to say ceramics don't? I think is incorrect to say that. they might sound different yes since they do have different physical properties.
if theres any difference i guess its because the nature of 6 individual alnico pole piece magnets vs a single ceramic... surely they will behave differently thus Al's point in designing the Bobbins to match them
Try em all and see whats work for you... I have ceramics and I have Alnicos and I like them both
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oooh zombie thread!
ontopic: mag-actives na lang kayo hehehe.
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ernie,
do have a guitar w/ has a combo of alnico and ceramic?
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yup dude, a strat wt alnico sa neck and bridge tapos ceramic sa mid... works for me
the alnicos are from a very old strat that broke down I think its a Maxon The ceramic was from 90's Jap esquire.
why?
BTW nagutom ako sa avatar mo Bits hehehe
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Hmm... how can you tell if you have Alnico or Ceramic?
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yup dude, a strat wt alnico sa neck and bridge tapos ceramic sa mid... works for me
the alnicos are from a very old strat that broke down I think its a Maxon The ceramic was from 90's Jap esquire.
why?
BTW nagutom ako sa avatar mo Bits hehehe
hahaha! yeah, I love food bossing! I'll eat any except for those served in the Fear Factor menu.
on topic, I have a strat, you know, the traditional specs..alder body, vintage trem..etc.. it has a ceramic neck and middle PU, which, is pretty ok for me and as for the bridge, I'm going to install an SD alnico (SSL5) on the bridge..I wonder if its going to compliment. Though, I want to try out better PUs because the stock ceramics come in cheap but the wood is excellent. Strummed unplugged, ganda ng resonance, and I wouldn't want the PUs to be a constraint to its potential.
I can't afford to change the neck and middle for now, and I'm curious if there's a celebrity out there using such combo. I want a reference of how these interact together, how they sound when flicked to other positions.
Having alnicos for the n/m with a ceramic for the bridge is a bit popular..but what if its the other way around.
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ALnicos are weaker in general than ceramic, neodymium and samarium cobalt. In the output department, you need bigger chunks of alnico to strengthen the magnetic force that the coil reacts with to produce a more compressed sound. Ceramics are more compressed in nature (not necessarily stronger). Neodymium is very strong but they can be very piercing for audio transducer purposes (i.e speakers, mics, pickups). That why the Celestion neos are very light since they have smaller magnets. Not very popular with pickups.
Haven't heard a samarium cobalt pickup yet, or an optical pickup. Can't comment as yet.
MUSICALLY SPEAKING, I prefer the sweetness of alnico pickups and using some pickup booster after the guitar to a high output ceramic which sounds very compressed and in some cases, brittle, unless I want to play metal through a high gain amp.
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hahaha! yeah, I love food bossing! I'll eat any except for those served in the Fear Factor menu.
on topic, I have a strat, you know, the traditional specs..alder body, vintage trem..etc.. it has a ceramic neck and middle PU, which, is pretty ok for me and as for the bridge, I'm going to install an SD alnico (SSL5) on the bridge..I wonder if its going to compliment. Though, I want to try out better PUs because the stock ceramics come in cheap but the wood is excellent. Strummed unplugged, ganda ng resonance, and I wouldn't want the PUs to be a constraint to its potential.
I can't afford to change the neck and middle for now, and I'm curious if there's a celebrity out there using such combo. I want a reference of how these interact together, how they sound when flicked to other positions.
Having alnicos for the n/m with a ceramic for the bridge is a bit popular..but what if its the other way around.
its popular cause it Make sense , the principle behind the ceramic B config i guess is that ... since ceramics really are kinda piercing in terms of tone fits well sa bridge.... where you go to when you want to get that "Bastos Bridge" tone. same goes with alnico on the neck if you want that SRV rounded tone, kind of like your playing sweet for most of song then when you go to a solo spot you get more bite when you switch to the bridge
oh i just checked the guitar... its actually ceramics sa M and B, pag sinipag ako palitan ko yung M ng Alnico since i still have some old pick ups stashed in my tool box...
pero sa ngayon the N - M position sounds nice to my ear (alnico N ceramic M) the alnico rounded tone is dominant dun sa blend nila (i just dont know baka kasi malapit sa neck ang position eh kaya mas rounded ang tunog
ill know later yung results ng Alnico M - Ceramic B
pero having said na maganda na yung puretone ng guitar by just playing it acoustically your mostly there kahit anong decent pickup siguro ikabit dyan it will sound good
theoretically you will loose a little bite sa bridge when you go for the alnico from ceramic
i never really tried alnico sa bridge at ceramic sa Mid. pag walang magawa subukan ko rin
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BTW YJM uses alnico sa N and B, and a Fender Stock sa Mid.... that could be a Reference. Check mo nalang kung Ceramic yung Fender Mid 70's na stock PU's
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BTW YJM uses alnico sa N and B, and a Fender Stock sa Mid.... that could be a Reference. Check mo nalang kung Ceramic yung Fender Mid 70's na stock PU's
I believe the stock 70s PUs are alnico and very smooth. You're going to hafta adjust your gain pedal or amp to get it to crunch hard that's why YJM immediately replaces them.
The 70s sound. I labbit!
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aku din 70's junkie :mrgreen:
ay may strat pala ako na texas special lahat dati... i remember bitin ako ako sa bite sa B position...
pero kung ako kung meron ako isang alnico sa Mid ko nanalang lalagay i did that once in one guitar i used for wickermoss..... nanakaw yung gitara wahhh
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aku din 70's junkie :mrgreen:
ay may strat pala ako na texas special lahat dati... i remember bitin ako ako sa bite sa B position...
pero kung ako kung meron ako isang alnico sa Mid ko nanalang lalagay i did that once in one guitar i used for wickermoss..... nanakaw yung gitara wahhh
sorry to hear that.
hmm...this is getting interesting...I'm itching to hear a set of Fender Hot Noiseless on my strat. Those are ceramics, and currently used by the very dynamic virtuoso Jeff Beck. To say that ceramics aren't as dynamic I guess is just as subjective as good tone.
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sorry to hear that.
hmm...this is getting interesting...I'm itching to hear a set of Fender Hot Noiseless on my strat. Those are ceramics, and currently used by the very dynamic virtuoso Jeff Beck. To say that ceramics aren't as dynamic I guess is just as subjective as good tone.
sakto im going to buy some next week sir ,will put it on a strat hehe, im going to try to demo it :evil: :evil:
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on my experience sa alnico pups, sobrang lush sa neck position, at mejo harsh sa bridge. i cant comment on ceramics much,
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sakto im going to buy some next week sir ,will put it on a strat hehe, im going to try to demo it :evil: :evil:
uy nice!
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uy nice!
hopefully mademo ko nang matino :wink:
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sorry to hear that.
hmm...this is getting interesting...I'm itching to hear a set of Fender Hot Noiseless on my strat. Those are ceramics, and currently used by the very dynamic virtuoso Jeff Beck. To say that ceramics aren't as dynamic I guess is just as subjective as good tone.
To the hands of a non-dynamic player of-course it will not sound dynamic... yeah watch Jeff Beck and the myth is gone
in my case since my touch is naturally mellow i don't have problems wt ceramics. sakto lang.
in many cases like taking turns jamming wt friends using one setup... my friends often find the guitar sounded very mellow when i was playing it and sounded very harsh and piercing to another player (without changing or tweaking settings). point meaning the magnets (or any other variables in the chain) can only influence one's tone to some degree, i guess most of it his touch and how he reacts to playing guitar or music in general. I remember like (10 years ago) really getting lost in the rabbit hole chasing tone, trying to be unique tone wise but only to find out that whatever gear or combination i use i still hear essentially me and in turn got me frustrated in trying to find a voice to call my own. then i realized i had it already... i just had to accept what my hands can produce (be it good or bad). since then i abandoned tone chasing... hence the tag line :-D
in conclusion i think the issue between ceramics and alnicos is another trip to the rabbit hole.
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All I know is most companies use ceramics for high output pick ups. Plus based on my actual hearing and experience, You could really hear you picking attack on alnico. IMHO ceramics are a bit rounder in tone, and alnicos have a more sparkly sound. IMO IMO IMO IMO
:-D :-D :-D
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well said Ernie. its the player's choice with the player playing.
so if i were to choose between the red pill or the blue pill? I'd take, new Alaxan ip ar!
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alnico & ceramic magnets are different when it comes to their properties. they have their own advantages and disadvantages like alnicos have high magnetism and more expensive than ceramic. ceramics or hard ferrite naman are corrosion-resistant. my conclusion is that you cannot tell whether the sound produced by alnicos are fat, clean.. etc. i mean, it's not just the magnet itself. it is how the coil-conductor are wound. the purpose of the magnet is to produce magnetic field and that when a motion or vibration happens, magnetix flux (magnetic field in a given area) produces electrical signal (sound is converted to electrical signal) thru the coil-conductor. pls refer to this link:
http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/pickups.php
it will explain to you the theory of guitar pick ups
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oh man..... and to think that im planning on upgrading my single coil.
a little OT:
im choosing between an EMG S3 and EMG S4 to be used as a neck pickup on my les paul copy, to be paired with an EMG HZ H3 on the bridge which i believe is a ceramic pickup. im quite leaning toward S4 since its also ceramic but still wondering if the S3 (ceramic or alnico?) would compliment the H3 better. ill be using the S3 mainly on clean to mild overdrive guitar parts.
thanks
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Hi Greg, nice to see active again in this forum.
complimenting imo is still subjective..you won't know until you try it on your guitar along with combo of PUs you want.
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exactly
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....saw that coming. :-D