TALK @ PhilMusic.com - The Online Home of the Pinoy Musician
The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: chuck sabbath on October 03, 2007, 11:16:28 AM
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...does musical scoring and/or sound effects design? :wink:
fascinating stuff...do you strictly quantize everything to a grid? or align cues to the exact start of the bar? pag heavily rhythmic yung cue i time warp the nearest downbeat to the exact start of the sequence just to make it simpler, pero kung medyo melodic line lang like a solo violin or cello i just freeform it (walang qauntize walang bilang etc.) bahala na saan bumagsak :D
sound effects naman: do you just use sfx libraries exclusively or do you edit them extensively and even make your own sounds from scratch? i have some sfx libraries but i always need something that they dont have so i do things like combine several click or clank samples to make the sound of a gun cocking for example etc or actually synthesize a swoosh sound from noise and filter/mod/etc them until i get what i want
um share?
kala nyo a :-)
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...does musical scoring and/or sound effects design? :wink:
fascinating stuff...do you strictly quantize everything to a grid? or align cues to the exact start of the bar? pag heavily rhythmic yung cue i time warp the nearest downbeat to the exact start of the sequence just to make it simpler, pero kung medyo melodic line lang like a solo violin or cello i just freeform it (walang qauntize walang bilang etc.) bahala na saan bumagsak :D
sound effects naman: do you just use sfx libraries exclusively or do you edit them extensively and even make your own sounds from scratch? i have some sfx libraries but i always need something that they dont have so i do things like combine several click or clank samples to make the sound of a gun cocking for example etc or actually synthesize a swoosh sound from noise and filter/mod/etc them until i get what i want
um share?
kala nyo a :-)
Scoring... marami dito. I think si x_taxi ganoon ang raket (or job).
For Sound Design, nakupow, wala pa akong alam na foley studio dito for public consumption (the one I know is at CSB-DLSU).
Gunshots pala are supposed to have different sounds depending on what material the bullet hits, and what gun (and era).
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But NO ONE has ever gotten the real sound of gunshots right.
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But NO ONE has ever gotten the real sound of gunshots right.
OO nga eh. Kay "sound design" ang tawag. Para bang itatapat mo yung mic sa bentilador para pag nasuperimpose mo sa storm parang realistic ang effect.
Minsan iniisip ko, kung paano talaga magroar ang mga Dinosaurs. Sa Jurassic Park daw halu-halong voices ng iba-ibang animals yun.
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depende talaga sa musical cue na kailangan. but usually if it's tv stuff stuff, you try to do your cues beforehand. so it means it's set to the beat. adjust na lang sa hitpoints. i don't quantize unless its electronica that i have to do.
pag melodic line, free time na yan para sumakto sa visuals. plus pseudo-orchestral stuff means that your swells would start at the preceeding measure.
with sound fx, i usually use sound libraries, tight ang sched kasi pag tv. pero sometimes, depende sa director, i would record then mash it to death.
as to realism with sound design, it's different schools of thought. pero personally, i time my thunder with the lightning. haha. we have to please our client. but i do try to take my inspiration from hermann, who always argued with his famed director.
:-) :-) :-)
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But NO ONE has ever gotten the real sound of gunshots right.
i've always wanted to record the real gunshot when i go firing. but then again, gun ban na naman. haha.
:-) :-) :-)
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But NO ONE has ever gotten the real sound of gunshots right.
Maybe because a real gun's 'PAK' sounds so pitiful to a movie gunshot's 'BANG!'. I once shot for our university's marksmanship team; the sound of a real M-16 pales in comparison to a movie M-16; the real thing doesn't have that much low end. I sometimes think they pass the real sound through a subharmonic generator then bump up the bass a lot.
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Maybe because a real gun's 'PAK' sounds so pitiful to a movie gunshot's 'BANG!'. I once shot for our university's marksmanship team; the sound of a real M-16 pales in comparison to a movie M-16; the real thing doesn't have that much low end. I sometimes think they pass the real sound through a subharmonic generator then bump up the bass a lot.
and it's probably gonna clip like hell too. maybe, i should try a shotgun mic to record a shotgun gun. haha.
:-) :-) :-)
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Maybe because a real gun's 'PAK' sounds so pitiful to a movie gunshot's 'BANG!'. I once shot for our university's marksmanship team; the sound of a real M-16 pales in comparison to a movie M-16; the real thing doesn't have that much low end. I sometimes think they pass the real sound through a subharmonic generator then bump up the bass a lot.
Sir, I think I should not mess with you more. Marksman pala kayo. :lol:
Oh BTW, I just wanna know how fast you can assemble an M-16... (those contests in my ROTC days really give me headaches)
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Sir, I think I should not mess with you more. Marksman pala kayo.
si boss kitc, master din sa firing pala. ako, i can't even get out of the 7pm dip with my second clip on the 1911's. i'm too gigil i guess.
:-) :-) :-)
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Maybe because a real gun's 'PAK' sounds so pitiful to a movie gunshot's 'BANG!'. I once shot for our university's marksmanship team; the sound of a real M-16 pales in comparison to a movie M-16; the real thing doesn't have that much low end. I sometimes think they pass the real sound through a subharmonic generator then bump up the bass a lot.
i agree kit. sometimes i find some sound effects downright silly and exaggerated, especially in hollywood films. pero effective naman. they keep us strapped to our seats.
and yes i wonder how they'll capture a gunshot sound up close which i think will clip like hell like x_taxi said. i wonder if mics can handle the SPL of gunshots (that is if the shots aren't fired directly into the idiaphragm, hehe).
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One thing for sure, I wouldn't use a U-87 to record a gunshot. At least an SM-58, maybe even a shotgun mic so I can be some distance from the gun yet capture it's sound fairly accurately. I wouldn't want any gun shot residue depositing on my mics though.
Going back on topic, I kinda do the same thing like chuck where I adjust a project's tempo to fit a score although I haven't done much in terms of video scoring. One thing that bothers me though is that we don't sync to film the way I expect it. Normally, we should be using SMPTE but judging from the way I observed things a few years back, we've still a long ways to go in terms of syncing.
As for SFX, I often use sample libraries but I've been known to mix several samples together, along with some synthesized sounds if only to add some missing low end or to add a growl. That's the beauty of working with synthesizers, you get to understand how to play around with oscillators and filters, etc. in order to synthesize your own sounds and fx.
OT: as for the marksmanship thing, well.... I can hit a bullseye at 75 yards using a standard sight. :evil:
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Maybe because a real gun's 'PAK' sounds so pitiful to a movie gunshot's 'BANG!'. I once shot for our university's marksmanship team; the sound of a real M-16 pales in comparison to a movie M-16; the real thing doesn't have that much low end. I sometimes think they pass the real sound through a subharmonic generator then bump up the bass a lot.
Kala ko M1 Garand pa gamit nyo nun ?
Hehehe....wooops....joklangpo haheheh.
Seriously as someone who's shot it and got shot at by it...an M-16 shot just sounds like a kawayan plank na hinampas....only louder :D
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Kala ko M1 Garand pa gamit nyo nun ?
that was during my high school days... oops! :-o
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OT: as for the marksmanship thing, well.... I can hit a bullseye at 75 yards using a standard sight. :evil:
I was number 2 in my MS43 Marksmanship class. Beaten only by a career soldier-seargent who was gunning for a commisionship. I managed to land 26 out of 30 shots on a 3X5 inch blackened square from 25 meters using the small aperture of the rear sight of the M16.
Even then it didn't have the thunderous bottom end of a movie gunshot. Yan ha, balik sa topic mwahahahaha.
Yung 50 cal M2...ibang storya na yun :D
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Ok, now we're OT: 25 meters? That's close! We held our competition in Fort Bonifacio in an open area where wind was always a problem. Snipers have it easy... they have spotters and have scopes that can adjust for windage.
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hmm lost my train of thought after lunch but...
yun nga isang issue ko yung syncing, in the short time ive been doing this i havent even seen smpte. pardon my ignorance how necessary is this? or better yet, whats the real world application? isnt it sufficient to match the sfx to the event in the video and nudge it around if need be? seems to be working out for me to do it mano-mano
yeah actually more than synthesizing from scratch what ive been doing a lot of is sample layering/chopping/mangling. with a competent sampler you can assemble bits and pieces of sounds to make something totally different ex. typewriter click + car door + wind + kick drum = a landmine going off etc. then pitch them up/down, reverb etc...
realism hasnt been too much of an issue for me cause the projects ive worked on have been sci-fi/futuristic etc. so yeah sfx design...sometimes the hardest part but always the most fun
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Maybe because a real gun's 'PAK' sounds so pitiful to a movie gunshot's 'BANG!'. I once shot for our university's marksmanship team; the sound of a real M-16 pales in comparison to a movie M-16; the real thing doesn't have that much low end. I sometimes think they pass the real sound through a subharmonic generator then bump up the bass a lot.
true. i've shot a few different rifles and handguns and none of them are accurately represented in the movies with the exception of long range sniper rifles like a barrett M90 or something similar. I am a rifle guy even for me those sound pretty darn loud and at 50 cal, it should.
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hmm lost my train of thought after lunch but...
yun nga isang issue ko yung syncing, in the short time ive been doing this i havent even seen smpte. pardon my ignorance how necessary is this? or better yet, whats the real world application? isnt it sufficient to match the sfx to the event in the video and nudge it around if need be? seems to be working out for me to do it mano-mano
SMPTE is usually the standard with video and film. The great thing about SMPTE is that it is an absolute time reference. If you lock a particular audio clip or fx to SMPTE time, it stays there regardless of any tempo change. For ex., you are editing a midi clip by varying it's tempo according to the pace of the video, any fx and audio clips after the clip you're working on will move if you inject accelerandos/decelerandos into the midi you are working on, assuming you are using M:B:T:F timing reference. With SMPTE, since you are locked to time, it won't matter if you change tempos; if you have an fx clip locked at 30 mins into the vid, it will stay there regardless of tempo.
@abyss - those .50 cal. shells are huge! I remember during my boy scouting days where we did some tree planting in the old Boy's Town in Antipolo. Just a foot under the top soil was a cache of live .50 cal shells! I took a couple home and broke open the rusted casing... the cordite was still fresh as the day it was made. And that .50 cal slug was HEAVY! Still have it somewhere... turned it into a noseweight for one of my scale model aircraft, a 1/48th B-1B.
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I built honest to goodness Foley surfaces for Roadrunner that they have used and are still using. The thing is the Foley artist is another factor. He has to be creative enough to know what sfx to put to a particular scene and where to put it. Roadrunner has 8 surfaces and they work well.
I have two other mixing stage designs in my table for implementations. These stages would have Foley surfaces in them as well - multi-purpose, Foley, ADR and mixing theater. It is just a matter of firming up the budgets.
The norm for sfx would be shotguns. It is the most flexible mic type for acquiring SFX. The same should be used for the Foley stage as it is the main mic used for the dialogue anyway, for easy matching. For ambience, a stereo mic or a stereo mic configuration on X-Y or whatever on a pole is the easiest to use and set up. I have done a previous one off sort of movie tele-novela with Raymund Red as Director (who understands sound very well. He would ask his DP to change the lighting positions if I could not capture a good dialogue) and Francis Magalona as main character, and used live dialogue all through-out. Did the Foley, the music and the mix using SMPTE time code (we have one of those) at TRACKS and it was quite okay. For the gunshots, as they were using blanks, I just captured that sound and used it in the final print. Just planted two mics and one shotgun near where they were doing the action, just enough to be away from the frame of the cameras. They sounded different from th usual full feature gunshots, but closer to the real thing as there was depth and enough loudness. The sound of the shells added realism. That was what the shotgun mic was taking.
For thunder, I would delay it a bit from the lightning frame. Not too much, but enough delay for realism purposes (sound travels slower than light, di ba?).
Sound design is a very interesting subject matter. Did some seminars on it as well as training. That was what I used to teach at St. Benilde before as well.
FWIW
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hmm lost my train of thought after lunch but...
yun nga isang issue ko yung syncing, in the short time ive been doing this i havent even seen smpte. pardon my ignorance how necessary is this? or better yet, whats the real world application? isnt it sufficient to match the sfx to the event in the video and nudge it around if need be? seems to be working out for me to do it mano-mano
yeah actually more than synthesizing from scratch what ive been doing a lot of is sample layering/chopping/mangling. with a competent sampler you can assemble bits and pieces of sounds to make something totally different ex. typewriter click + car door + wind + kick drum = a landmine going off etc. then pitch them up/down, reverb etc...
realism hasnt been too much of an issue for me cause the projects ive worked on have been sci-fi/futuristic etc. so yeah sfx design...sometimes the hardest part but always the most fun
ano po medium nyo for syncing audio =video? tape ba?digital mpeg?quicktime?
alin ang pang record nyo sa audio at alin naman ang medium nyo sa video?
merong mga simple solutions yan chak pero kailangan muna malaman ang systema mo
regards
alkemi
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yun nga isang issue ko yung syncing, in the short time ive been doing this i havent even seen smpte. pardon my ignorance how necessary is this? or better yet, whats the real world application? isnt it sufficient to match the sfx to the event in the video and nudge it around if need be? seems to be working out for me to do it mano-mano.
meron setting yan when you start the project sa sequencer mo. i always set mine on smpte.
if you still score the old-skul linear way, importante ang time code. but with digital stuff, it's almost a non-issue unless you have the moolah to use nuendo or sequioa.
one thing i've noticed na hassle is the frame lock when i score on avid. it only lets you adjust per frame. sometimes pag crunch time and malapit na deadline, i just bring loops for minor adjustments to the musical cues and it's such a PITA. there's still protools HD though, but usually i'd do it on avid.
:-) :-) :-)
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@abyss - those .50 cal. shells are huge! I remember during my boy scouting days where we did some tree planting in the old Boy's Town in Antipolo. Just a foot under the top soil was a cache of live .50 cal shells! I took a couple home and broke open the rusted casing... the cordite was still fresh as the day it was made. And that .50 cal slug was HEAVY! Still have it somewhere... turned it into a noseweight for one of my scale model aircraft, a 1/48th B-1B.
yeah-they are massive. in comparison to shells from an M-16 or AK, the size difference is unreal. the recoil takes a lot of getting used to as well because it just kicks you back so much after every round. even for well designed rifles like the Barrett, my body felt fatigued after a few rounds. as a rifle guy, i love them though. being able to shoot something as far away as a 1km is a lot of fun.
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meron setting yan when you start the project sa sequencer mo. i always set mine on smpte.
if you still score the old-skul linear way, importante ang time code. but with digital stuff, it's almost a non-issue unless you have the moolah to use nuendo or sequioa.
one thing i've noticed na hassle is the frame lock when i score on avid. it only lets you adjust per frame. sometimes pag crunch time and malapit na deadline, i just bring loops for minor adjustments to the musical cues and it's such a PITA. there's still protools HD though, but usually i'd do it on avid.
:-) :-) :-)
hi x_taxi.. based on sa sinabi ni chuck e medyo nalilito pa sya sa smpte so i assume
medyo bago parin sa kanya ang non linear. kaya matutulungan natin si chuck dahan dahan pero as ive said kailangan muna natin malaman ang existing systema nya. Mano mano ba? vhs dvd? ano sequencer hardware or software?
O chuck, sige shoot! baka naman porn yang sino score mo ha?
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hi x_taxi.. based on sa sinabi ni chuck e medyo nalilito pa sya sa smpte so i assume
medyo bago parin sa kanya ang non linear. kaya matutulungan natin si chuck dahan dahan pero as ive said kailangan muna natin malaman ang existing systema nya. Mano mano ba? vhs dvd? ano sequencer hardware or software?
O chuck, sige shoot! baka naman porn yang sino score mo ha?
trivia: sir mike p is or was a member of the"real" smpte club sa america
tama po ba sir mike?
kaya dati twing nag stripe ako smpte naalala ko kayo, elementary ako nun..hehehe .. ika nga ni sir KITc oops nagkakaalaman na. SArap sa forum you get to hide your age.
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@alkemi and x_taxi: binibigay sa akin ang *.avi file na edited na at may dialog na tapos ini import ko 'to sa cubase tapos dun na lahat ng music at sfx. so basta naka sync lang sa video yung sfx at music, oks na kami. kung may edit sila sa video later on sila na bahala mag adjust sa music or sfx. low budget/short deadline, alam mo na...so is smpte useful/necessary in this scenario?
ahm nalilito pa nga ako, maybe i do some reading/research first
hindi ako nag score ng porno no :x? ako na nga actor, ako pa din music?? :roll:
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@alkemi and x_taxi: binibigay sa akin ang *.avi file na edited na at may dialog na tapos ini import ko 'to sa cubase tapos dun na lahat ng music at sfx. so basta naka sync lang sa video yung sfx at music, oks na kami. kung may edit sila sa video later on sila na bahala mag adjust sa music or sfx. low budget/short deadline, alam mo na...so is smpte useful/necessary in this scenario?
If I may, no, di na kailangan smpte dito. Your client will do the final edits pala. smpte will be important later on siguro when you start doing full length movies or videos.
hindi ako nag score ng porno no :x? ako na nga actor, ako pa din music?? :roll:
:-D So kelan lalabas ang "chuck_sabbath scandal"? :lol: ma-google nga!
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@alkemi and x_taxi: binibigay sa akin ang *.avi file na edited na at may dialog na tapos ini import ko 'to sa cubase tapos dun na lahat ng music at sfx. so basta naka sync lang sa video yung sfx at music, oks na kami. kung may edit sila sa video later on sila na bahala mag adjust sa music or sfx. low budget/short deadline, alam mo na...so is smpte useful/necessary in this scenario?
ahm nalilito pa nga ako, maybe i do some reading/research first
hindi ako nag score ng porno no :x? ako na nga actor, ako pa din music?? :roll:
eh lumampas na pala sa smpte ang alam mo.. non linear systema kana.. da best nayan at mas mabilis at yan na ang bagong systema. Tama si sir KITc, ang video editing na mag problema nang iba mong cue kung nagbago pa sila ng edit.. sa audio kalang bahala naman.
so penge kopya ng scandal mo ha
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@alkemi and x_taxi: binibigay sa akin ang *.avi file na edited na at may dialog na tapos ini import ko 'to sa cubase tapos dun na lahat ng music at sfx. so basta naka sync lang sa video yung sfx at music, oks na kami. kung may edit sila sa video later on sila na bahala mag adjust sa music or sfx. low budget/short deadline, alam mo na...so is smpte useful/necessary in this scenario?
kung avi and you'll use it sa cubase, then no need for smpte.
furthermore, kung may edit pa, it's better if you'll do the adjusting - or at least be there at the final cut. no such thing as a "locked film" here kasi. it's only locked at final distribution, whether broadcast or dvd. so it's either you trust the editor or he ends up makin you look stupid pag di sync'ed properly, or if the levels aint right.
did some softcore porn-ish scoring myself. ikaw kaya yun? haha. perfect drum n bass dun! pambayo! haha!
:-) :-) :-)
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trivia: sir mike p is or was a member of the"real" smpte club sa america
tama po ba sir mike?
kaya dati twing nag stripe ako smpte naalala ko kayo, elementary ako nun..hehehe .. ika nga ni sir KITc oops nagkakaalaman na. SArap sa forum you get to hide your age.
Am still an active full voting member, as an International member. You mean when you were in the elementary, member na ako? Tagal na pala nuon.
Regards
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Are there really folks who vote for what time code should be the "standard"?
Gosh! :lol:
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Am still an active full voting member, as an International member. You mean when you were in the elementary, member na ako? Tagal na pala nuon.
Regards
sir roughly, that was 20 yrs ago..whew.. i was part of pedero music at nasabi po ni hector na you were a member ng smpte na mahilo hilo kami at that time and we were doing a film score from hongkong at sabi namin buti nalang may smpte!
regards sir
by the way, npj is doing a personal project po samin so talgang napakasaya ko na may reunion kami.
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Are there really folks who vote for what time code should be the "standard"?
SMPTE and other forms of time code such as MTC, word clock, 'black-burst', etc. have been around longer than we probably have a right to question as which should be standards. SMPTE, for ex., stands for Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineers, so it really is a group of engineers from 2 different entertainment groups, film and TV. They saw a need for standardized timing because film is 24 or 25 frames per second (fps), video is 29.97 fps, while audio is typically at 30 fps - try to sync that!
Each discipline developed it's own timing system. The 30 fps standard was derived from early black and white TV and since audio was synced to that, it kinda took. The advent of color TV saw the need to put in timing references that would be sort of adaptable to the B&W technology at the time so (to make a long story short) the 29.97 fps standard emerged. Film has always been at 24 fps (US) or 25 fps (EU). And then there's Japan, but let's not go there for now.
The 2 disciplines of film and TV had a clash of sorts when it became uhh... time to transfer movies to television. The difference in frame rates meant you can't do a frame-for-frame transfer. Since audio was also embedded in the movie's frames, that meant audio would be distorted in the transfer as well. Not only that, audio was often recorded to a separate tape recorder while filming a movie. The resulting frame rate difference would mean that audio would slowly lag behind the video as the movie progresses - kinda like those pirated dvds.
To make a long story short, everyone just got together and decided that in order for everything to line up, they had to come up with a common timing reference, hence SMPTE was born. Tsaka na natin pagusapan ang MTC and LTC and black burst, ha?
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SMPTE is an organization of people and companies involved in TV or film industries that decides on policies regarding motion picture and TV standards and other issues regarding the industry, much like what AES does to audio and NAB for broadcast. The SMPTE time code is, like what KitC had explained, the answer for standardization of synch'ing audio to video, video to video, etc. It is just one of the agreed standards institutionalized by the organization. Others include color, motion picture theater specs and others. The THX spec in reality is somewhat similar to SMPTE's. SMPTE preceded THX. The organization has been in existence ever since the advent of film and TV, so it is an old body.
Do they really vote on things like the code, for instance? Yes. All members are made to study the standards being proposed through the org's journal and cast their yes or no votes regarding it.
FWIW