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The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: skunkyfunk on November 05, 2007, 11:27:50 AM
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I thought of investing on a separate budget mastering outfit with dedicated outboard equipment and monitoring. But more importantly, I want to have someone who can master my own mixes, because I want to have a different set of ears to do the mastering. Of course, his ears should be discerning at best.
A lot of issues to tackle about mastering - noise reduction, editing loud transients, converting a waveform to a "mini 2x4" before sending it to a peak limiter to make it one huge 2x4, dithering, multi-band compression, phase-shifting the midrange, EQ, and a lot of those things.
is it better to train an apprentice or ask someone more experienced to do the job. By the way, here's how American Idiot's waveform looks like: :-P
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/skunky_funk/americanidiotfull.jpg)
And this is a closeup:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/skunky_funk/americanidiotCLOSEUP.jpg)
Sorry folks but I'm budging. I think the loudness = goodness sickness is here to stay and I think I really need to setup a volume engineering suite. :-D
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My 2 cents:
-to say that it is representative of all American mastering to master loud is inaccurate such that there are a lot of people who master records commercially who do not happen to follow the GD example that you provide. Mastering loud, like mixing methodology, is subjective according to the approach of each person completing the task - it is not meant to provide a specific standard as you would imply.
-if you want something mastered subjectively, properly, and consistently - hire someone to do it who has the proper experience, background and equipment to complete the job. Training a mastering engineer like recording personel requires much experience and should not be treated like it is something easy to do if you want the job done right - one does not train a mastering engineer if one isn't a mastering engineer by trade because it is a separate vocational pathway in the recording profession.
You mention that you would like to setup a separate budget for a mastering outfit - by "outfit," are you implying that you are looking to make a dedicated mastering facility in addition to your recording place? A mastering facility requires specific types of gear and discerning environment than a recording studio so please be more specific with what you mean by "outfit" because it can literally mean anything from acquiring basic "pre-mastering" plugs to building and buying an entire monitoring setup for mastering alone.
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My 2 cents:
-to say that it is representative of all American mastering to master loud is inaccurate such that there are a lot of people who master records commercially who do not happen to follow the GD example that you provide. Mastering loud, like mixing methodology, is subjective according to the approach of each person completing the task - it is not meant to provide a specific standard as you would imply.
-if you want something mastered subjectively, properly, and consistently - hire someone to do it who has the proper experience, background and equipment to complete the job. Training a mastering engineer like recording personel requires much experience and should not be treated like it is something easy to do if you want the job done right - one does not train a mastering engineer if one isn't a mastering engineer by trade because it is a separate vocational pathway in the recording profession.
You mention that you would like to setup a separate budget for a mastering outfit - by "outfit," are you implying that you are looking to make a dedicated mastering facility in addition to your recording place? A mastering facility requires specific types of gear and discerning environment than a recording studio so please be more specific with what you mean by "outfit" because it can literally mean anything from acquiring basic "pre-mastering" plugs to building and buying an entire monitoring setup for mastering alone.
Abyss, I did not say loud mastering is representative of the professional approach to mastering nowadays. It's just that, I find it hard to get mixes to go THAT loud when doing things ITB. I've always thought using outboard peak-limiting, multi-band compression and some sort of aural exciter or sonic maximizer is a necessary evil because you can shoot up the 0dBFS+ levels a tad more before bringing them back to digital and doing peak limiting again in the digital domain.
As for a separate outfit, YES. Different set of tools, monitors, listening room, and a new refrigerator. :lol: But I guess I cannot afford a DAT player or 1/2" deck for now because most record digitally and save data to CDR or DVD+R. However, I find that TASCAM DSD DVDR recorder very appealing.
Sorry for the use of the word "train" because I really ain't a mastering engineer by trade. But then, having a dedicated mastering facility is not really common in the country not until Zach Lucero opened his own a few years back. So I guess, the problem is finding a trainer in the first place. However, maybe I can impart a few techniques that I do in mixing that an apprentice can use, preferably someone who has much experience in mixing. DJs tend to be good in this aspect. They know how to edit waveforms well. But to arm him for being a mastering engineer is great, because I think, it is one of the the echelons of recording.
For now, my goal is to fix my mixes first instead of doing the trial and error "mastering" by listening to different listening environments.
Speaking of equipment, what can you say about ATC mastering monitors? I heard ADAM makes very good mastering speakers but they would cost me all my arms and legs.
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I've only worked with one set of ATCs - a set of far fields - and they sounded pretty good for the material I was working with, however, whether or not they flatter particular genres is a matter of opinion because I wasn't at the facility to A/B songs. Not very many places I've been in have ATCs so I can't say much about em. I do have more experience with Bowers and Wilkins, vintage Duntechs (which are still in use in many places), Nova Evolutions and stuff from SLS. I can say with a bit more certainty that the speakers from these companies offer pretty good versatility that you can use to monitor accurately across differently music genres.
As a person who has worked with the DJ dance genre, I can get where you are coming from but you should also make it a point to orient the person with the finer details of mastering because as every DJ knows - the bottom is where its at - and this makes it quite difficult to loose sight of important details when you are trying to master subjectively. Using a different set of ears to master is a good idea but trying to overcome difficulties in a scene where there are basically no specialized mastering engineers is going to be a bit hard...I guess you're going to have to pool knowledge together and see how that works out.
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I thought of investing on a separate budget mastering outfit with dedicated outboard equipment and monitoring. But more importantly, I want to have someone who can master my own mixes, because I want to have a different set of ears to do the mastering. Of course, his ears should be discerning at best.
A lot of issues to tackle about mastering - noise reduction, editing loud transients, converting a waveform to a "mini 2x4" before sending it to a peak limiter to make it one huge 2x4, dithering, multi-band compression, phase-shifting the midrange, EQ, and a lot of those things.
is it better to train an apprentice or ask someone more experienced to do the job. By the way, here's how American Idiot's waveform looks like: :-P
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/skunky_funk/americanidiotfull.jpg)
And this is a closeup:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/skunky_funk/americanidiotCLOSEUP.jpg)
Sorry folks but I'm budging. I think the loudness = goodness sickness is here to stay and I think I really need to setup a volume engineering suite. :-D
sana matuloy. we need more dedicated mastering facilities around here, IMO.
ayos lang naman kahit ganon kalakas ang american idiot. it's a rock song, and despite the loudness may konti pang dynamics because of the arrangement.
we should all support TURNMEUP.ORG so that we can finally have that label implemented.
how hard is it to train a mastering engineer? i think without a dedicated mastering engineer mentor, it would probably take as long as learning recording itself, if not longer. you can start with the book The Art Of Mastering, by Bob Katz. the only thing there is he mentions a lot of hard ware stuff (like cedar de-essers, etc etc etc) that would cost the entire GNP of a small third world country :lol: im guessing we can downsize somehow and achieve decent results with a few good pieces of hard ware and lots of high quality software.
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sana matuloy. we need more dedicated mastering facilities around here, IMO.
ayos lang naman kahit ganon kalakas ang american idiot. it's a rock song, and despite the loudness may konti pang dynamics because of the arrangement.
we should all support TURNMEUP.ORG so that we can finally have that label implemented.
how hard is it to train a mastering engineer? i think without a dedicated mastering engineer mentor, it would probably take as long as learning recording itself, if not longer. you can start with the book The Art Of Mastering, by Bob Katz. the only thing there is he mentions a lot of hard ware stuff (like cedar de-essers, etc etc etc) that would cost the entire GNP of a small third world country :lol: im guessing we can downsize somehow and achieve decent results with a few good pieces of hard ware and lots of high quality software.
hey, is it possible that you guys could get a mastering clinic together like you do those recording clinics seeing how studio owners do have an interest in this sort of thing? i see that the recording clinics by Kit and the rest of the folks have a pretty good turn out - maybe an event focusing on specialization of mastering theory by people who are interested in it can be organized?. Just a thought...
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hey, is it possible that you guys could get a mastering clinic together like you do those recording clinics seeing how studio owners do have an interest in this sort of thing? i see that the recording clinics by Kit and the rest of the folks have a pretty good turn out - maybe an event focusing on specialization of mastering theory by people who are interested in it can be organized?. Just a thought...
mejo difficult abyss because without a specialist we'll all be simply groping in the dark. pwede yung logistics but we realy dont have a mentor as of yet :(
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cool, more power, sana matuloy.
my 2 cents... crucial in a mastering facility are:
1. mastering engineer (taste, experience, philosophy)
2. room
3. monitoring
4. processing equipment (can be hardware but can also be software)
It's my dream to one day get into the mastering game (for now I do with "mastering") but I resolved for the next 5 years I'll keep on making my mixes better muna.
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cool, more power, sana matuloy.
my 2 cents... crucial in a mastering facility are:
1. mastering engineer (taste, experience, philosophy)
2. room
3. monitoring
4. processing equipment (can be hardware but can also be software)
It's my dream to one day get into the mastering game (for now I do with "mastering") but I resolved for the next 5 years I'll keep on making my mixes better muna.
ako din i think id be spreading myself too thin if i get into mastering as of now.
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yeah pwede ako attend as a student??? I'd like to know how to record and master. galing galing. Sana pro tools gamit na interface. dali kasi gamitin eh.
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yeah pwede ako attend as a student??? I'd like to know how to record and master. galing galing. Sana pro tools gamit na interface. dali kasi gamitin eh.
You might be surprised.
Protools is not the be all end all of recording. Mastering tools tend to be different from your standard recording tools simply because they tend to concentrate on playback systems. Heck, even the monitors and gear they use range from high end to really esoteric. Monitors can range from Adams to Emes and Focus systems. Compressors can be like the Manley Labs Variable Mu Tube Limiter and EQs like the Avalon Designs AD2077. Recording/mixing and mastering are 2 very different disciplines indeed.
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Has anyone tried visiting Zach Lucero's TWEAK MASTERING studio?
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You might be surprised.
Protools is not the be all end all of recording. Mastering tools tend to be different from your standard recording tools simply because they tend to concentrate on playback systems. Heck, even the monitors and gear they use range from high end to really esoteric. Monitors can range from Adams to Emes and Focus systems. Compressors can be like the Manley Labs Variable Mu Tube Limiter and EQs like the Avalon Designs AD2077. Recording/mixing and mastering are 2 very different disciplines indeed.
+1...quite a common misconception indeed. A lot of people have yet to realize that it isn't as much about the software than it is about the actual tools that go into the signal chain.
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Has anyone tried visiting Zach Lucero's TWEAK MASTERING studio?
i might have the opportunity to visit it. Me and Zach have a meeting once he gets back from Boracay
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Has anyone tried visiting Zach Lucero's TWEAK MASTERING studio?
i have, a couple of years ago. all i can say is his listening environment is A1. grabe. super nice stereo imaging.
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This comes from: Record-Producer.com
The logic behind having your mastering done by a professional is that it can put the icing on the cake of a good mix. And if your track is mastered by someone who doesn't really know what he is doing (i.e. you), then it can be completely ruined.
This is the advice given by mastering engineers, and is often repeated in recording websites (including this one), magazines and books.
But you know what the best thing to do with advice that is repeated so often that it becomes true simply because no alternative viewpoint is ever presented?
Trash it.
OK, the advice to have your mastering done by a professional is duly trashed. Now, you can do your own mastering with a clear conscience.
Let's unpick the advice normally given on mastering. Pro mastering engineers always complain about the eternal pursuit of subjective loudness. You can get that by compressing, limiting and then clipping.
Well I'd say there is no such thing as excessive subjective loudness. Just go for it and make your track as loud as you dare. Then make it louder.
Mastering engineers also say that you should master on a neutral, high-quality monitoring system.
Nah, just do it on your normal monitors. Presuming you chose monitors you like the sound of, then master your track so it sounds good on them.
Mastering engineers say that faults such as clicks, distortion or noise should be carefully and precisely edited, filtered or processed so the result is a clean, fault-free recording.
Really? How come that every hip hop track has vinyl surface noise in the samples as an upfront feature? Clicks, distortion and noise are artifacts of the medium. Just like an artist doesn't try to conceal his brush strokes, you shouldn't try to conceal the characteristics of the medium you work in.
Mastering engineers also say...
Well they say lots of things, but in your studio, with your music and your equipment - just do it the way that feels good to you.
Don't let anybody say that you can't master your own tracks, prove them wrong and just go ahead and do it!
Would you like to comment on this article? Click here to write to Record-Producer.com
There is "hope" for us, "home" studio owners :-)
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This is also an nice article:
http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=4127
Again from WWW.record-producer.com
Hope it is not illegal to post it. :roll:
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From record-producer.com
The logic behind having your mastering done by a professional is that it can put the icing on the cake of a good mix. And if your track is mastered by someone who doesn't really know what he is doing (i.e. you), then it can be completely ruined.
This is the advice given by mastering engineers, and is often repeated in recording websites (including this one), magazines and books.
But you know what the best thing to do with advice that is repeated so often that it becomes true simply because no alternative viewpoint is ever presented?
Trash it.
OK, the advice to have your mastering done by a professional is duly trashed. Now, you can do your own mastering with a clear conscience.
Let's unpick the advice normally given on mastering. Pro mastering engineers always complain about the eternal pursuit of subjective loudness. You can get that by compressing, limiting and then clipping.
Well I'd say there is no such thing as excessive subjective loudness. Just go for it and make your track as loud as you dare. Then make it louder.
Mastering engineers also say that you should master on a neutral, high-quality monitoring system.
Nah, just do it on your normal monitors. Presuming you chose monitors you like the sound of, then master your track so it sounds good on them.
Mastering engineers say that faults such as clicks, distortion or noise should be carefully and precisely edited, filtered or processed so the result is a clean, fault-free recording.
Really? How come that every hip hop track has vinyl surface noise in the samples as an upfront feature? Clicks, distortion and noise are artifacts of the medium. Just like an artist doesn't try to conceal his brush strokes, you shouldn't try to conceal the characteristics of the medium you work in.
Mastering engineers also say...
Well they say lots of things, but in your studio, with your music and your equipment - just do it the way that feels good to you.
Don't let anybody say that you can't master your own tracks, prove them wrong and just go ahead and do it!
Would you like to comment on this article? Click here to write to Record-Producer.com
So there is "hope" for us, the "home" studio producers :-)
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you can master you own tracks - there aren't any hard and fast rules about it - however, having your tracks mastered by someone who masters for a living accomplishes one very important thing: you are making your tracks more competitive among a larger pool of material which sound a certain way. you can master your own tracks, however, whether or not it will be viewed as a piece of finished music that sounds "just as good" as other popular music will be a source of debate...
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^interesting
i have enough respect for real mastering engineers to poo-poo that advice...but not enough to keep me from "mastering" my own stuff :-)
btw that hiphop example is a bit misleading...yung pops, clicks etc sa hiphop is not due to the recording media but the inherent "flaw"/idiosyncrasy of the "instrument", in this case the vinyl. its like hendrix's out of tune guitar or miles' overblowing. likas na yun sa performance/expression ng instrument. yung sinasabi nyang "characteristics of the medium" can be applied to tape compression/distortion siguro. but to leave clicks/clipping/hash in when youre working in digital is just bad engineering
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Me to, respect for mastering engineers.
I did work with a few in my "younger" day´s, it´s a very specialised job.....
But if your budged is low just try to make the best of it in your own "way" :wink:
Don´t forget:
Not all "hits" went to a mastering engineer first.
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Not all "hits" went to a mastering engineer first.
Heck... some hits even came direct from a 4-track cassette. Now THAT's impressive!
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Heck... some hits even came direct from a 4-track cassette. Now THAT's impressive!
yep - Stevie Ray Vaughan's first demo eventually became Texas Flood because it was recorded as well as it could have at the time.
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there are no solid rules. in the end pagandahan lang ng tunog yan eh. and to achieve that, dapat mas problemahin ang tracking and mixing rather than mastering in this country. we have a lot to catch up to with these initial stages in recording. i got my hands on a local recording mastered by a renowned mastering engineer from the states. i did the post prod for the project. ganun did. no matter what, source is king. mastering is a treat, if the mixing and tracking is superb. otherwise, its useless. if i got to master some material from chesky, that will sound a lot better than material i will master from a poorly tracked and mixed song recorded here, or anywhere else for that matter.
there is no voodoo or hidden magic in mastering. its simply eq-ing, compression, leveling, and knowing how to balance things out. knowing when enough is enough and when to stop. a clinic on mastering at this stage we have in recording i feel is for nought. what are we gona master? :wink:
ot. hazel nice mix on kastigo! i loved mastering your mix. good job keep it up!!!
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there are no solid rules. in the end pagandahan lang ng tunog yan eh. and to achieve that, dapat mas problemahin ang tracking and mixing rather than mastering in this country. we have a lot to catch up to with these initial stages in recording. i got my hands on a local recording mastered by a renowned mastering engineer from the states. i did the post prod for the project. ganun did. no matter what, source is king. mastering is a treat, if the mixing and tracking is superb. otherwise, its useless. if i got to master some material from chesky, that will sound a lot better than material i will master from a poorly tracked and mixed song recorded here, or anywhere else for that matter.
there is no voodoo or hidden magic in mastering. its simply eq-ing, compression, leveling, and knowing how to balance things out. knowing when enough is enough and when to stop. a clinic on mastering at this stage we have in recording i feel is for nought. what are we gona master? :wink:
ot. hazel nice mix on kastigo! i loved mastering your mix. good job keep it up!!!
thanks zach :) i just got my copy of the cd and nice job! pinakinggan namin ni shinji sa sound creation :) gave him a copy too!
zach, i seriously seriously agree. in my case, i see that i really have to start at the TRACKING STAGE palang. not even sa mix. ive watched shinji work a couple of times, heard his raw files and all i can say is, WOW. galing din ng ideas nya sa mix. you're a drummer. you know shinji's kick tracks are serious ass-whoopers. merong oomph talaga. ive soloe'd even his overhead mics and the oomph is still there. now how does he do that?! my point is i am starting to see the possibilities taking place as early as the tracking stage. so yeah, if we can keep improving the quality as early as possible, maybe then we could seriously look into mastering.
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^
^
+1
Tracking is crucial... its just like baking a cake. "Tracking" is where you prepare all the ingredients and mix it all together. "Mixing" the song is the where you bake the cake in the oven and "Mastering" is where you put the icing on top. A huge effort on preparing to bake the cake... well thats we all do during tracking... Sa mixing naman, Like what Charles Dye said "Mix it Like a Record" so para Mastering Engineers wont do much na lang.
Ginutom yata ako sa example ko hehehe
nga pala hazel since we had our gobos constructed a huge improvement in our drum recordings. kinukulong namin yung drums with 4 gobos. :)
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Zach is right. It all begins with the TRACKING.
But seriously, it begins even BEFORE TRACKING. It's all about knowing when you're ready to hit the studio.
Are you done with your song's arrangement? Or are you gonna find things out when you hit the studio?
To the guitarists and bassists: are you sure about what to use in your signal chain for the recordings? Do you know what amp/s to use in conjunction with your existing settings in your effects and guitars? how much gain do your REALLY need? What guitar and amp voicings are needed to support the song?
To the drummers: are you longing for an open sound? More punch? Ore something looser? do you need single ply's for the toms? how much do you need to muffle the snare? Are you in for ambient miking or more for close-miking? Do you REALLY need to trigger drum samples or can it be done acoustically from the kit? Can you play well to a click?
To the vocalists: Do you like your monitors loud? Soft? Does deafening your wars make you pick up more energy? Do you have a lot of dynamics that you require a nice outboard compressor in the chain? Have you practiced your harmonies? Are you in tune? autotune is not always the answer.
I guess it is also a fault of having a lack of PRE-PRODUCTION. A lot of bands hit the studios without much preparation, and , they just start to 'find themselves' in the studio. So now, there is more room for error.
Anyway, there is still hope.
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Zach is right. It all begins with the TRACKING.
But seriously, it begins even BEFORE TRACKING. It's all about knowing when you're ready to hit the studio.
Are you done with your song's arrangement? Or are you gonna find things out when you hit the studio?
To the guitarists and bassists: are you sure about what to use in your signal chain for the recordings? Do you know what amp/s to use in conjunction with your existing settings in your effects and guitars? how much gain do your REALLY need? What guitar and amp voicings are needed to support the song?
To the drummers: are you longing for an open sound? More punch? Ore something looser? do you need single ply's for the toms? how much do you need to muffle the snare? Are you in for ambient miking or more for close-miking? Do you REALLY need to trigger drum samples or can it be done acoustically from the kit? Can you play well to a click?
To the vocalists: Do you like your monitors loud? Soft? Does deafening your wars make you pick up more energy? Do you have a lot of dynamics that you require a nice outboard compressor in the chain? Have you practiced your harmonies? Are you in tune? autotune is not always the answer.
I guess it is also a fault of having a lack of PRE-PRODUCTION. A lot of bands hit the studios without much preparation, and , they just start to 'find themselves' in the studio. So now, there is more room for error.
Anyway, there is still hope.
malamang budget parin talaga ang problema for up and comers to properly plan out and implement pre prod. somehow pwede naman gawan ng paraan sa studio, or before the sessions simply by holding a meeting with the band.
the points you raised are valid. the band really should be aware that there is more to audio production than simply getting your guitars in tune and hitting the record button.
here are simple solutions to the pre prod problem in case wala masyadong budget yung banda:
Are you done with your song's arrangement? Or are you gonna find things out when you hit the studio?
one could make rough mixes of a track so the band could review it and alter or add parts accordingly during thefollowing sessions.
To the guitarists and bassists: are you sure about what to use in your signal chain for the recordings? Do you know what amp/s to use in conjunction with your existing settings in your effects and guitars? how much gain do your REALLY need? What guitar and amp voicings are needed to support the song?
this one could be tough. there's always digital modelling for those who want to get close ;) i personally prefer amps and simply try to make them work by using different settings. most of the time it works kahit pano. Bass tracks? i DI through the Joe Meek. Sounds ok most of the time.
To the drummers: are you longing for an open sound? More punch? Ore something looser? do you need single ply's for the toms? how much do you need to muffle the snare? Are you in for ambient miking or more for close-miking? Do you REALLY need to trigger drum samples or can it be done acoustically from the kit? Can you play well to a click?
well you could try all sorts of micing. you could mute close mics if you want to do roomy sonds. have all the mics set up already in case you realize later that you need them. as for the drum heads, im guessing it will really matter only marginally if one's drum set is not top of the line. yes, it does make a difference on the sound, but in my case hindi masyadong dramatic ang changes. what will matter in my experience is the TUNING. yes. BIG TIME. take a day to tune that set if you must. click tracking? the drummer can try it in the studio and if doesn't work, ditch it. you'll know within a few seconds if the drummer is able to lock in or not.
To the vocalists: Do you like your monitors loud? Soft? Does deafening your wars make you pick up more energy? Do you have a lot of dynamics that you require a nice outboard compressor in the chain? Have you practiced your harmonies? Are you in tune? autotune is not always the answer.
again you can simply try this in the studio. shouldn't take too long. if the vocalist is not in pitch i usually halt the recording. i explain to him/her that this kind of problem cannot usually be solved easily. it needs a lot of unlearning and relearning. balik nalang sila after a week. then i make a minus 1 for them to practice to. vocalists have to print out a lyrics sheet for one more practical purpose other than not forget the words. it is for the engineer to be able to mark problematic words/lines. sometimes it is better to let the vocalist just sing the song from start to end without any interruptions. then do punch in's later. so yes please provide us those lyrics sheets :)
one more practical trick we can use is to let the vocalist sing the song from start to finish, disregarding the peaks. the purpose of this is to simply provide us with a visual cue of where the dynamics get a little bit hot so we can anticipate the these parts and either ride the faders or automate the compression as he or she sings.
if a band has any previous recording of their songs (demo's etc) they should bring it in before the ssions for evaluation, so the engineer has a liittle idea of what the songs require :)
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You might be surprised.
Protools is not the be all end all of recording. Mastering tools tend to be different from your standard recording tools simply because they tend to concentrate on playback systems. Heck, even the monitors and gear they use range from high end to really esoteric. Monitors can range from Adams to Emes and Focus systems. Compressors can be like the Manley Labs Variable Mu Tube Limiter and EQs like the Avalon Designs AD2077. Recording/mixing and mastering are 2 very different disciplines indeed.
Thanks, I really dont have much knowledge about recording and mastering. hmmm do we have seminars or clinic on how to learn all this things??
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Thanks, I really dont have much knowledge about recording and mastering. hmmm do we have seminars or clinic on how to learn all this things??
attend the clinics held by the pros on this forum - they have a lot of good things to teach. Pro Tools is only one system that you can use to record and produce music. Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar, Logic and Digital Performer are other popular software suites which are just as good as PT at getting the job done of recording your songs. Remember, its how you use the tools at your disposal to record a great song and polish it to perfection - not the name of the software suite you happen to use. You can record a piece of cr@p song on PT or whatever system you have but if it is cr@p then it ain't gonna be much more than a poorly written song, recorded with a great system.
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I would like to give one more "advice" to bands who like to do recording......
"stop bringing your friends, relatives, sisters in law, children etc. etc. etc !
Why:
It is not like going to "Disneyland or shopping in SM but hard working in a studio.
Specially children will start messing the studio after 20 minutes, they are children right?
The band will not perform "good" when te whole family is "watching"
You become nervous and make mistakes you would not make when you would go there with only bandmembers (maybe the manager)
Better "use" :evil: your family etc. for buying the "original" cd so they count for the hit charts instead of "cheap computer copy´s", or for texting the whole day MYX to broadcast the new single or send them to as many music stores as possible to "ask" if they have the "newest" single of band "whatever the name is" have in their collection.
Maybe the store manager will order the single and you will have a "hit"
Hahahahahahaha.......................
You can pay them back when you are "famous" :-D
Even when you don´t become famous they still have the original cd to show the children and grandchildren to tell "look, grandpa made a cd and was famous"............. :wink:
My 5 cents contribution......... :-P
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I would like to give one more "advice" to bands who like to do recording......
"stop bringing your friends, relatives, sisters in law, children etc. etc. etc !
Why:
It is not like going to "Disneyland or shopping in SM but hard working in a studio.
Specially children will start messing the studio after 20 minutes, they are children right?
The band will not perform "good" when te whole family is "watching"
You become nervous and make mistakes you would not make when you would go there with only bandmembers (maybe the manager)
Better "use" :evil: your family etc. for buying the "original" cd so they count for the hit charts instead of "cheap computer copy´s", or for texting the whole day MYX to broadcast the new single or send them to as many music stores as possible to "ask" if they have the "newest" single of band "whatever the name is" have in their collection.
Maybe the store manager will order the single and you will have a "hit"
Hahahahahahaha.......................
You can pay them back when you are "famous" :-D
Even when you don´t become famous they still have the original cd to show the children and grandchildren to tell "look, grandpa made a cd and was famous"............. :wink:
My 5 cents contribution......... :-P
Korak!!
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Korak!!
LOL hindi ko nakita yon a.
yes totoong nakaka distract pag masyadong madaming audience. minsan masyado din maliit ang space to acoomodate everyone. may i suggest taking pics and videos instead so you can share the momentous event to friends family and total strangers ;)
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Even taking videos can be distracting during a recording. If the videocam has a way to turn off the "record ready" red light, do so.
This thread has turned into a tracking thread. I agree, however, that before a track is given to a mastering engineer, it has to be as close to the finished product as much as possible. To paraphrase Bob Katz, :"Mix it Like a Mastered Record".
I don't know if one can adequately train a mastering engineer from scratch. The way I see it, one has to be already adept in mixing before one can step up to mastering. Mastering is also about cohesion of not only one song, but the entire album or collection.
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i trained myself from the internet! and i suck at it. haha.
seriously, i just master usin the stock presets. when i started scoring for the broadcast medium, i noticed that sometimes the editor would lower my cues to the point where you couldn't hear it during the broadcast. lest i look stupid to the masses, i just learned bout mastering from the internet - basically only on what i should just minimally tweak.
either you do the normal expeditated process of an educational institution or just learn it the hit-or-miss hard way, crossin your fingers that you never learn any bad habits.
end result is that my producer is happy! so i guess i'm doin the right thing. although sometimes she asks me kung bingi daw ba ako. haha.
if anyone masters for tv, just hover around -14. you can go over just a bit on a case to case basis, as long as you don't overwhelm the true stars of the show!
:-) :-) :-)
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i trained myself from the internet! and i suck at it. haha.
seriously, i just master usin the stock presets. when i started scoring for the broadcast medium, i noticed that sometimes the editor would lower my cues to the point where you couldn't hear it during the broadcast. lest i look stupid to the masses, i just learned bout mastering from the internet - basically only on what i should just minimally tweak.
either you do the normal expeditated process of an educational institution or just learn it the hit-or-miss hard way, crossin your fingers that you never learn any bad habits.
end result is that my producer is happy! so i guess i'm doin the right thing. although sometimes she asks me kung bingi daw ba ako. haha.
if anyone masters for tv, just hover around -14. you can go over just a bit on a case to case basis, as long as you don't overwhelm the true stars of the show!
:-) :-) :-)
wow -14 ... that's a lot of allowance :) nice tip ;)
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Even taking videos can be distracting during a recording. If the videocam has a way to turn off the "record ready" red light, do so.
This thread has turned into a tracking thread. I agree, however, that before a track is given to a mastering engineer, it has to be as close to the finished product as much as possible. To paraphrase Bob Katz, :"Mix it Like a Mastered Record".
I don't know if one can adequately train a mastering engineer from scratch. The way I see it, one has to be already adept in mixing before one can step up to mastering. Mastering is also about cohesion of not only one song, but the entire album or collection.
oo nga no kit? di talaga maiwasan. i think babalik at babalik sa tracking ang issue talaga e.
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Ok, for the sake of argument, the way i see it, in this country, the LAST TOUCH PRINCIPLE applies to our recordings. When you have crap mastered, and the output is enhanced crap, the artist/producer blames the mastering engineer. :-D
But granting that the tracking and mixing was done "perfectly", what does the mastering engineer do that the mixing engineer CANNOT do?
A lot of other questions for the mastering engineer:
1. I've heard mastering engineers who require mixes to "NOT SOUND HUGE". They mean they hate peaking and at most, a peak should be at around -6dBFS. So if that is the case, why do some mixing engineers argue that the mix should approach the 'mastered' sound?
2. Do you prefer stems or the basic 2-bus?
3. Do you like compressed final mixes (some sort of 'mastering compression plugin' rendered to the mix)?
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Ok, for the sake of argument, the way i see it, in this country, the LAST TOUCH PRINCIPLE applies to our recordings. When you have crap mastered, and the output is enhanced crap, the artist/producer blames the mastering engineer. :-D
But granting that the tracking and mixing was done "perfectly", what does the mastering engineer do that the mixing engineer CANNOT do?
A lot of other questions for the mastering engineer:
1. I've heard mastering engineers who require mixes to "NOT SOUND HUGE". They mean they hate peaking and at most, a peak should be at around -6dBFS. So if that is the case, why do some mixing engineers argue that the mix should approach the 'mastered' sound?
2. Do you prefer stems or the basic 2-bus?
3. Do you like compressed final mixes (some sort of 'mastering compression plugin' rendered to the mix)?
hmmm. the last apo album opened my eyes to the fact that mastering almost cannot touch an already good mix. halo halo yung mga kanta don. listen to them. in some songs you can hear the the comp/lim being hit hard, in others ... bukang buka parin yung tunog .... they were all mastered the same way im assuming...
or am i wrong?
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hmmm. the last apo album opened my eyes to the fact that mastering almost cannot touch an already good mix. halo halo yung mga kanta don. listen to them. in some songs you can hear the the comp/lim being hit hard, in others ... bukang buka parin yung tunog .... they were all mastered the same way im assuming...
or am i wrong?
Hazel can i " practice on the mix u did?" please lang..i just want to know how i fare.. :wink:... if i think i am DEAF already.. sorry na lang ako.. me buy and sell section naman dito eh..
" o bili na kayo ng LA2A, UA and Grace Design mic pres. Nuemann mics all slightly used..guitars mint condition .. i will throw in the towel na .. :-D :-D :-D
ps
it is hard to be a trying hard Zach Lucero!!!! hehehe
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Hazel can i " practice on the mix u did?" please lang..i just want to know how i fare.. :wink:... if i think i am DEAF already.. sorry na lang ako.. me buy and sell section naman dito eh..
" o bili na kayo ng LA2A, UA and Grace Design mic pres. Nuemann mics all slightly used..guitars mint condition .. i will throw in the towel na .. :-D :-D :-D
ps
it is hard to be a trying hard Zach Lucero!!!! hehehe
haha wag mo na ipost! i-pm mo nalang agad dito at baka sakaling makapagbenta ako ng kidney para ma-afford ko yan! LOL.
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hahahah Hazel kelangan mo yata ng maraming kidney para sa isang mic at mic pre hahahah LOL isama mo na atay at balunbalunan :-D :-D :-D.. oy ipadala mo sa akin yung mix mo ha? PLEASE??? :cry:
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Ok, for the sake of argument, the way i see it, in this country, the LAST TOUCH PRINCIPLE applies to our recordings. When you have crap mastered, and the output is enhanced crap, the artist/producer blames the mastering engineer. :-D
i think pag sobrang iba na yung ginawa ng mastering engineer at na prito na yung project justified na sisihin sya.
But granting that the tracking and mixing was done "perfectly", what does the mastering engineer do that the mixing engineer CANNOT do?
or should not. destroy a perfectly good mix. let's focus on the do's. a mastering engineer should have the humility to go up to the mixing engineer and say "ey nice job, i hardly did anything to it, compress and leveling nalang (leveling is by the way a pain in itself, one overlooked too many by mastering engineerss)" On the same note, mixing engineers should have an open mind when a mastering engineer spots something in the mix he or she missed, like a bad punch in, clips here and there, muddy mix etc. in the end dapat tulungan parin.
A lot of other questions for the mastering engineer:
1. I've heard mastering engineers who require mixes to "NOT SOUND HUGE". They mean they hate peaking and at most, a peak should be at around -6dBFS. So if that is the case, why do some mixing engineers argue that the mix should approach the 'mastered' sound?
because there is a difference with the "mastered sound" and a "mastered level". Mastered sound does not automatically mean it is loud already. When you try to master a mix that sounds good and pristine already that means eq on the mastering engineers part is to down to a minimal. at the most .5db increments. that's the type of mix that sounds finished and mastered already, except for the level. Yun ang magagaling na mixing engineer pag hindi na kailangan galawin masyado ng mastering as the level goes up. you try to play around with the overall sound of the mix with just the gain and input of your compressor. When a mastering engineer gets a project with a blasted level meaning there is no more headroom, there is not much that engineer can do anymore.
2. Do you prefer stems or the basic 2-bus?
i prefer stereo. i still feel the line has to be drawn between mixing and mastering. if i get stems and trip out on them, i feel that is mixing teritory still. plus dagdag trabaho pa yan. hehe
3. Do you like compressed final mixes (some sort of 'mastering compression plugin' rendered to the mix)?
for me nope.
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hmmm. the last apo album opened my eyes to the fact that mastering almost cannot touch an already good mix. halo halo yung mga kanta don. listen to them. in some songs you can hear the the comp/lim being hit hard, in others ... bukang buka parin yung tunog .... they were all mastered the same way im assuming...
or am i wrong?
nope. dante of u.r compiled everything. but he recieved numerous "master pegs" for each song. hassle talaga compilation albums. iba iba ang tunog ng mga kanta dahil iba iba ang pinang galingan ng mga studio. dante had to treat each song differently. but you are right, dante felt that in some songs hindi na nya gagalawin yung eq, call nya yun. pag ok na yung mix eq nalang pag nilakasan at naiba. pag hindi, no need.
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Zach.. is that Dante the engr of Jimi A dati nung sa makati square pa sila? i met him a few years back.. he's an awesome dude very accomodating , great guy!!!.. he is the one who showed me some stuff on digital recording. 8-)
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yeh that's probably him, ayus yun :D
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Hi Zach. Just in case I refer clients to you, I just wanna know if you can make 'em mixes sound as loud as, err... -8dBFS RMS or louder? I know it is ridiculous to go with the trend but some clients feel "niloloko sila" when you say that mixing can't make your mixes as loud as the foreign and some local releases which went to a DEDICATED mastering facility. It's like when I say, "You need a mastering house..." para bang ang tingin nila dapat kaya ko rin gawin. I can make my mixes as loud as -12dBFS with less boxiness but Vlado Meller kind of makes my mixes sound soft.
Anyway, let's post this around our studios for our clients:
http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryID/247/Default.aspx
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mmm. simple solution:
client: can you make our songs as loud as (insert foreign album name here)?
studio engineer: no. but zach can help you with that :-D
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IMO, if your clients end up feeling that mastering under a certain level is part of "kalokohan" then there is something to be said about imparting the proper idea behind mastering to them. I believe that part of your job as a producer and engineer is to educate artists about the production process if they don't know anything about the technicalities of the process because it will help them make better records in the future and show them the subtleties of making music from behind the desk.
It seems to me that the channels of communication between you and your clients need to be beefed up. Personally, I have never come across the situation where the people I work with feel like I am gyping them at all because even before hitting the board and setting up the track sheets, I meet with the entire band (and their manager if they have one), go over their pre-production material and discuss specific goals for the recording process. This way, I can answer whatever questions they have and direct my workflow much more efficiently with each member of the band as I track and mix their work. You need to be able to communicate with your clients well and have a common understanding of your methods as an engineer and their goals as artists. You don't have to cater to a trend but it seems from your troubles stem from the band trying to dictate your workflow even though they hired you in the first place to mix and record their work. If you aren't fine with this, you need to make it clear. Posting stuff around a studio will make it less likely for people to read them especially if they are paying an hourly fee. Talk to the people and discuss the important aspects of the recording process with them - it'll save you headaches.
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Nice article Skunk, thanks for the link........
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mmm. simple solution:
client: can you make our songs as loud as (insert foreign album name here)?
studio engineer: no. but zach can help you with that :-D
yup. i agree that a mastering engineer's role is important but, as always, the bulk of the pudding has to start with the recording process. it seems I always hear about clients on this forum wanting their band to sound a certain way. Emulating a particular sound is fine but it has to be made clear that unless you have comparable instruments, it is going to be a helluva chore to pattern a small amp with a stomp box in front of it to sound like a Diezel or a Bogner that some popular band may be playing on a record with a mortage worth of mics and processors behind it. The band members (your clients) have to realize that there should be a firm sense of realistic goals in place because your engineer can do a great deal of audio magic but they can't turn water into wine and their ain't no way a Fender Showman is going to sound like a Bogner on steroids.
Band members need to do their homework first and know what they can do and can't do in the studio. It sounds like you guys and gals have had a heck of a time sparring with some very unrealistic requests from clients :-( I feel your pain.
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korek :D
ey skunk, the level the mastering guy can dish out is dependent on the mix parin. not all songs are mixed the same way.
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korek :D
ey skunk, the level the mastering guy can dish out is dependent on the mix parin. not all songs are mixed the same way.
Zach, I just wonder from a mastering engineer's perspective.... what factors make it less likely for a 2-bus mix to get 'louder'?
A lot of mastering engineers say these pointers for mixing engineers can help out in giving room for the mastering process:
1. Exaggerate the kick drum and anything that has very loud and short transients (like say a bomb explosion sound effect in the mix).
2. Add more mids to the instrument, like around 3dB at 250Hz and 500Hz for the midrange instruments like guitar, piano, snare drum, etc. The 'iwas-butas' approach for the mastering...
3. Do NOT do the fades in the outros. A fade envelope will seriously change once it hits the mastering compressors.
4. Do NOT take out the noise like hum and hiss in the silent parts. The mastering engineer must have better tools for audioscrubbing.
5. Mix with NO peaking in the final rendered mix.
6. Always give mixes in 24-bit and NOT audio CDs.
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its about balance.
1. what you mean exagerrate? louder? more reverb? more eq to make it pronounced?
2. do what ever it takes to make your mix as balanced as possible.
3. yep
4. not necesarilly. comunicate with the mastering engineer. if you can take it out sa mix palang then do so. the hum and hiss should have been avoided nung
tracking stage palang. it also depends, hums and hisses from a noisy amp or loud condedser can add character to a recording.. there are nice recordings whith noise that was left alone. a mixing engineer can opt to leave some creaking noise from a chair in the mix because it can make the recording more organic, and make one listening to the recording imagine the musician playing with the acoustice guitar on an old chair.
rule of thumb is its better to hear a crappy instrument that sounds real, than a hi-end one that sounds fake. e.g a great engineer can make a cheapo quiapo guitar sound just like what it is, a cheapo quiapo giutar, as if its right in front of you. as opposed to hearing a martin or taylor that sounds like its plastic.
5. yep
6. not true. 16 bit is fine. it depends on the system. sometimes it is better to dither with the same system that recorded the music to avoidd compatibility issues with the system of the mastering engineer. Audio cd's are fine too, only if you have an ultra hi-end transport, great digital cable, and converter, and a good master cdr. otherwise forget it. some suites that have this can dump the digital data to tape and add some analog squish to the master. some run em through tube preamps. if you don't have the geAR then the safest is still data of course and not doing any d/a-a/d convertions
an example of a mix that will give the mastering engineer a hard time in jacking up the level would be a mix pronounced in the 3khz to 4khz. a female voice already pronounced in the range, if not micd and tracked properly will rip your tweeters when you master it.
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nga pala, that goes for any frequency na exage. :D
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yup. i agree that a mastering engineer's role is important but, as always, the bulk of the pudding has to start with the recording process. it seems I always hear about clients on this forum wanting their band to sound a certain way. Emulating a particular sound is fine but it has to be made clear that unless you have comparable instruments, it is going to be a helluva chore to pattern a small amp with a stomp box in front of it to sound like a Diezel or a Bogner that some popular band may be playing on a record with a mortage worth of mics and processors behind it. The band members (your clients) have to realize that there should be a firm sense of realistic goals in place because your engineer can do a great deal of audio magic but they can't turn water into wine and their ain't no way a Fender Showman is going to sound like a Bogner on steroids.
Band members need to do their homework first and know what they can do and can't do in the studio. It sounds like you guys and gals have had a heck of a time sparring with some very unrealistic requests from clients :-( I feel your pain.
Well, I've already been programmed to think Pinoys, in general, want to buy a "Ferrari for the price of a Toyota..." It is practically the reason why fake signature clothes and bags sell much here. It is practically the same thing with some clients in recording.
One time, I really got so pissed because a client was texting me in the wee hours saying their mixes were not as loud as some modern release, while he was havinh helluva goodtime partying while I was busy "loudening up" his mix to almost unlistenable condition. It's like, they'd rather have a squashed up waveform with heavy clipping for as long as it's loud, than a pefect mix that is like 1.5dBFS RMS softer. :x And they cannot afford Zach's services either when you point them to him.
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its about balance.
1. what you mean exagerrate? louder? more reverb? more eq to make it pronounced?
Exaggerate - maybe shoot its level around 2-3dBFS louder than normal. Say you have a perfect mix, try making the kick fader a tad louder. I save 2 versions - the balanced version and the one with the slightly louder kick version.
2. do what ever it takes to make your mix as balanced as possible.
Which makes me think what "balance" means to a record producer. Say you pick out two foreign million-dollar production CDs, say MAROON 5 and THE WHITE STRIPES. Play them both on your deck or iPod, they kind of sound "balanced" to my ears, but definitely both mixes are far from each other. I think with the Maroon 5 album, I think the mixes were made to have the instruments have more separation, than that of the White Stripes that sound so trashy. I love both albums, but to approach the recording process of both necessitates 2 very different methods. I cannot discount that The White Stripes had a very muddy and middy final mix before the mastering stage where the treble was evened out. [/quote]
an example of a mix that will give the mastering engineer a hard time in jacking up the level would be a mix pronounced in the 3khz to 4khz. a female voice already pronounced in the range, if not micd and tracked properly will rip your tweeters when you master it.
I guess what you mean is once you compress or boost the highs and mids, the 3K area starts to sound piercing. Or causes fatigue...
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for 1 and 2 when i say balance, i mean the levels of each instrument. for your last paragraph i mean not in the fatiguing way. i mean if any is too pronounced, when you master, that frequency will be the first to rip or clip. so if the mix is balanced, then one can jack it up to a good level, adding gain and compression and eq gradually w/o a particular frequency sticking out. Two differently mixed and tracked songs, with good balance among the levels will both have a better chance of getting subjectively "good levels". That's why the kastigo album is one of the loudest ive ever done, hazel's mix was balanced and jacking it up was a breeze. i could still make it louder, pero prumeno na muna ako before we get too crazy with the levels. if the guitars were too piercing, or the vocals to loud, or even the kick too spiked, there will always be a disadvantage, where "leveling" is concerned. but again that's not always a bad thing. louder is not always better ika nga.
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tsaka sometimes whith pinoys trying to get ferrari performance with a toyota, well sometimes nasa druver din yun. pinoy pa, nakakatuwa actualy some of the stuff i hear when i find out what equipment they use. :-)
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trying to get ferrari performance with a toyota,
That sounds like a scene from "Fast and the Furious". On a technical note, you can turn a toyota into a ferrari with some really good engine and suspension parts, a racing chip, and some nitrous oxide (hey! it's only the mech. eng'g. in me talking).
I always find it a challenge to make good with whatever available gear I've got, but no amount mastering knowhow will polish a turd. You're right... it's still up to the driver.
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I think the indian and the pana/driver and the car/player and the instrument arguments are kind of moot na hehehe.
To some extent, I agree that the mastering engineer's biggest asset should not be the signal chain he uses, but his ears and skills. But as any mastering engineer should know, "You cannot EQ what you cannot hear..." That is why you must have a bare minimum of equipment that can do the job and achieve superior results.
And those ATC mastering monitors almost made me faint.