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The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: Agent_So on November 25, 2006, 10:48:12 AM

Title: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on November 25, 2006, 10:48:12 AM
guys, i decided to create this thread para sa mga gusto magtanung at matuto mag acoustic and soundproof like me.. ive been doin research sa net, and ngtanung narin dito dati regarding studio acoustics.. i hope mag post rin tayo dito ng mga ginawa nating mga DIY acoustic/soundproof... pics or ideas.. now, gumawa ako 6 panel basstraps sa ceiling sa studio, ginamit ko yung design ni ethan winner...  now my question is, how to test it effectivity??


ill post some pics later.. marami pa ako tanung like how to soundproof yung main door sa studio.. pakita ko rin pics later...


i hope this thread will help many musikero's!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Direk on November 27, 2006, 03:02:36 AM
gumawa ako 6 panel basstraps sa ceiling sa studio, ginamit ko yung design ni ethan winner...  now my question is, how to test it effectivity??

Agent So,

Yan din sana yung itatanong ko sayo eh. According to you, its a bass trap. Now my question is, anong offending bass frequency (or room resonance modes) ba reflected from the ceiling(???) ang kinonsider mong ma treat? Have you consider calculating your room's resonant mode before? Dito mo malalaman yung behavior ng resonance modes after ma-excites ng sound yung  room mo which cause frequency-response peaks and dips and this affects the frequency modes up to 300Hz, beyond this, it tends to become so dense that it dont cause problems. This explain why we always concentrate more on treating the bass problem in a room.   

To test your room behavior(kung nagawa mo sana muna to before then thru comparison, malalaman mo kung effective nga ang bass trap project mo), you need a Test CD with diagnostic tracks like covering Bass Decade with 1/3-octave warble tones at -20dbFS ( 20Hz, 25Hz, 31.5Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz, 63Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 125Hz, 160Hz and 200Hz respectively). Also, a sound level meter (Radio Shack, Cat.#. 33-2055...hint:cheap) will help you to plot your rooms resonance modes. For hi tech approach, a spectrum analyzer with calibrated mic's will do but at a cost . Hope this helps.     


 
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: toink on November 27, 2006, 11:40:03 AM
mga sir ask ko po kung pano isoundproof ung ceiling. mukhang manipis lng ung ceiling dito eh, kisame tapos konting space den yero na agad. pano po kaya sir? and kapag concrete po b ung pader ok na un? di n kelangan pang lagayn ng soundproof ung pader? di nmn kelangan totally na masoundproof, important lng hindi maingay sa labas, khit konting may naririnig ok lng basta hindi nakakaistorbo. tnx! :)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Blueberri on November 27, 2006, 03:44:12 PM
mga sir,

same question as above, how much does a concrete wall take off the sound?? would a loudly played drum set still be annoying on the other side?? (lets take that there's no bleed off the ceiling).

and would a nice big couch work as a bass trap??Also, where would be the best placement??(in a mixing room)
or how do i find out where?? can I go around the room and listen to where bass is the loudest??

thanks!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: skunkyfunk on November 27, 2006, 03:53:10 PM
People need to go to school, or at least learn a little Physics first. 

Just as a simple check, try playing a really good bass guitar through a great sounding bass amp.  Then find out what notes in the bass guitar seem to shake the walls - that woukld give you an idea what resonant frequencies have to be corrected.

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 27, 2006, 06:35:33 PM
We're seeing some good points here.  Direk's suggestion is very good.  You can try that approach to see what LF resonates the room.  Skunkyfunks suggestion is good as well.  The important thing is that you should know the different frequencies of the various keys or note, i. e., open E string is 40 hz., etc.

To soundproof a room, a 6 inch CHB will give you an STC of about 43.  You paint the pores, it become 45.  If you sound is about 100 dB, you still have to contend with something like 55 dB, which is still a lot of sound.  If you are talking of a practice room for drums, it may not affect your neighbors anymore as long as you do not practice during late evenings.  For recording, noises from the outside can still affect your recording especially during soft passages.  You have to remember that you have to control sound coming out and coming in to the studio or room.

How do you treat your roof?  Put glass fiber insulation under the GI sheets, about 50 mm, held by GI wire.  Then, allow an air gap.  Then install at least 2 pieces of 12mm gypsum board on ceiling sleepers.   Put about 100 mm of glass fiber batt, the one that is rolled, 16 or 38 kgm, whatever you can afford, on top (inside) of the gypsum ceiling.  Caulk all joints and possible areas where sound can seep through with silicon caulk or better yet, any non-hardening caulking material.  After which you deal with the acoustics of the room.  Put heavt drapes on 2 sides of the room from top of wall to floor.  Put them so that the drapes are about 3 to 4 inches away from the wall.  For the ceiling, install acoustical tile.  For the floor, ordinary wood or T & G wood flooring.

So, there.  A less expensive way of soundproofing and taming your room acoustics.  As to the modes, that's another story.  You have to go through room ratios and if there are still problems, specific traps using resonators like Helmholtz ones to tame resonating frequencies.

Where to put traps?  At the back where the waves develop into their full potential.  Also, the areas where the side walls meet the back wall.  Bass tends to deveop in those areas.  In the ceiling?  Normally you put mid frequency absorbers there. 

How big must the trap be?  Definitely if you talking about low frequencies, you need more space to trap it.  The trap should have at least a depth of 12 inches (.30 mtrs.).

Direk is right.  You just do not put bass traps if there are not offending frequencies in the room.  You might be over doing it and destroy the sound of your room.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Direk on November 28, 2006, 04:24:58 AM
As to the modes, that's another story.  You have to go through room ratios


Let's consider first what happens along the length of a room when the air inside is excited by sound from the loudspeakers. A room's resonant frequencies are determined by the distance between the room's wall. The farthest apart the walls are, the lower the resonant frequency. Specifically, the lowest resonant frequency called the fundamental resonance, occurs within the room's length equals the half wavelength of sound. Put another way, a resonant mode will occur when the sound's wavelength is twice the length of the room. Other resonant modes occur at twice this frequency, three times this frequency, and so on. Whenever the length of the room is a multiple of half of the sound wavelength, a resonant mode will occur.

Here's an example and how to determine your room resonant modes based on your room's length, width, and height. The formula is F1 = 1130/2L. F1 is the first resonant mode, 1130 is the speed of sound in air (in feet per second), and 2L is two times the room's length (in feet). If the room is 21' long, its first resonant mode (F1) will be 27Hz (1130/2 x 21).

We know that the next mode will occur when the wavelength equals the room's length, at 54Hz (2 x F1), then again at the next multiple of half a wavelength ( 1- 1/2 wavelengths) at 81Hz (3 x F1), again at 108Hz (4 x F1), and so forth. Again, it is only necessary to consider room modes up to 300Hz.

The room's height and width will also create their own resonant modes. If we have an 8' ceiling, the resonant modes will occur at 71Hz (1130/2x8), 141Hz , 212Hz, and so on. If the width is 13', the resonant modes modes will be at 43Hz (1130/ 2 x 13), 87Hz, 130Hz, 174Hz, 217Hz, 261Hz, etc. We end up with a chart that look like this:
 
Mode    Length    Width    Height
                21'          8'           13'

F1           27Hz       71Hz      43Hz
F2           54Hz       141Hz    87Hz
F3           81Hz       212Hz    130Hz
F4           108Hz     282Hz    174Hz       
F5           135Hz     353Hz    217Hz     
F6           162Hz                   260Hz             
F7           189Hz                   304Hz             
F8           216Hz
F9           243Hz
F10         270Hz
F11         297Hz
F12         324Hz         


Interpreting the resonance modes; Let's say for room distance, L24', W16', H8'; Length mode (F3) at 72Hz, coincides with the second mode width (F2) 70Hz and the first height mode (F1) 71Hz,  these combine modes, will pile-up creating a huge peak in the response at this frequency. This undesirable situation occurs because the room's length, width, and height are multiples of each other. Expect a thick, peaky, and very colored  bass reproduction. 

We can minimize the frequency-response peaks and dips caused by room resonance modes by choosing a room ( this isn't always possible unless you build a room from scratch, or convert a garage or basement into a listening/monitoring/studio room)  with dimensional ratios that more evenly spread the resonant modes over the low-frequency band. This gives you a head start in getting great sound from your system.
Goodluck!
 
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 28, 2006, 07:28:27 PM
Korek, Direk (it rhymes, too).  The terms are axial, tangential and oblique modes.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: toink on November 28, 2006, 08:22:03 PM
How do you treat your roof?  Put glass fiber insulation under the GI sheets, about 50 mm, held by GI wire.  Then, allow an air gap.  Then install at least 2 pieces of 12mm gypsum board on ceiling sleepers.   Put about 100 mm of glass fiber batt, the one that is rolled, 16 or 38 kgm, whatever you can afford, on top (inside) of the gypsum ceiling.  Caulk all joints and possible areas where sound can seep through with silicon caulk or better yet, any non-hardening caulking material.  After which you deal with the acoustics of the room.  Put heavt drapes on 2 sides of the room from top of wall to floor.  Put them so that the drapes are about 3 to 4 inches away from the wall.  For the ceiling, install acoustical tile.  For the floor, ordinary wood or T & G wood flooring.

sori po sir medyo hindi ko naintindihan hehe. saan po b ako makakabili ng mga ganyang gamit? my room is 9 1/2 x 16 1/2 feet. mga magkano kaya gagastusin sa soundproofing nung roof
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Direk on November 28, 2006, 09:00:26 PM
Korek, Direk (it rhymes, too).  The terms are axial, tangential and oblique modes.

FWIW

By the way, this explanation of room resonance modes and the examples given are greatly simplified. I've just covered what are called axial mode--those that exist between one pair of surfaces. Other modes resulting from the two surfaces pairs (tangential modes) and three surfaces pairs (oblique modes, from all six walls of a room) aren't discussed.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: TheHunter on November 28, 2006, 10:03:23 PM
are there any acoustic simulation software available?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Direk on November 29, 2006, 01:29:09 AM
are there any acoustic simulation software available?


Lots. Like this one- http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.php?load=cara-raumakustik-simulation.html
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 29, 2006, 01:42:13 AM
There are several, but you should be careful with these acoustic simulations and software.  They are just tools that you use.  An understanding (again) of the basics is necessary to fully make use of these elements.  Read on and study some more.  Books of F. Alton Everest on acoustics are very nice reads.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on December 26, 2006, 01:02:55 PM
mga sir, anu bang magandang pang soundproof sa pinto?? im thinking of using 4inch thick styro... would that do the job? advise mga sir thanks.!

regarding dun sa mga ginawa kong basstrap, as i can see it has big effect sa low frequency dampening pero di ko pa talaga matest gaano siya ka effective..

anyways, eto lang pansin ko sa room ngayon, sa key of "A" ngba-vibrate yung mga glass windows.. anu kaya ibig sabihin nun?

btw, yung room is not yet fully acoustic, kulang pa sa buget eh.. pero yung initial na mga nilagay kong sound absorbers, does the job well...

anyways, i hope you can help me in soundproofing my door... kaya naiisip ko na styro kasi mas solid siya sa foam... what do you think guys?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 27, 2006, 01:13:34 AM
mga sir, anu bang magandang pang soundproof sa pinto?? im thinking of using 4inch thick styro... would that do the job?

regarding dun sa mga ginawa kong basstrap, as i can see it has big effect sa low frequency dampening pero di ko pa talaga matest gaano siya ka effective..

anyways, eto lang pansin ko sa room ngayon, sa key of "A" ngba-vibrate yung mga glass windows.. anu kaya ibig sabihin nun?

btw, yung room is not yet fully acoustic, kulang pa sa buget eh.. pero yung initial na mga nilagay kong sound absorbers, does the job well...

anyways, i hope you can help me in soundproofing my door... kaya naiisip ko na styro kasi mas solid siya sa foam... what do you think guys?

Styro is not a good sound stopper.  It can probably absorb sound, but for doors, you need mass.  You can do a sandwiched type door, with different facing thicknesses.  Then, you have to put a lot of rubber stripping around the door and jamb.  The door is a weak link, and it surely is a source of sound seeping through another room.  The technique is to build a sound lock.

Regarding your glass vibrating, that means your glass window is resonating at that frequency.  First, you have to put silicon caulking around the edges of the glass to secure it well.  Second, you have to make sure the measurement and thickness of the glass will not vibrate and resonate at that frequency.  It's either you make the glass thicker or make the size smaller.

Acoustics is not an easy thing.  You need understanding of basic physics - the characterics of sound, etc.  You can experiment but you also have to study by reading books and other acoustic articles or materials.  If you do not know what you're doing, you'll be wasting lots of money.

Good luck.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on December 27, 2006, 02:10:08 AM
Mike,

I've read of quarter-inch thick clear vinyl being used as dampers for glass windows. You don't even have to cover the entire pane, about 1/5 to 1/4 is enough and the inherent 'stickyness' of vinyl is enough for it to stick to glass. Question is... where does one get clear vinyl of sufficient thickness here?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 27, 2006, 02:31:06 AM
What you're talking about, Kit, are what are termed as "limp masses."  These are indeed vinyls and rather thick.  Because they do not conduct sound, the characteristic of the material proves so, they are very good sound stoppers.  Normally, you put them in between walls as "mass sheetings" to insulate sound from being transmitted.  There is a brand from Australia that is very good.  It's called Deci-Bar CB with CB standing for Clear-view Noise Barrier.  A friend use to import it.  But because it is very expensive and not a lot of people use it (because of the cost), he has stopped importing it.  So, ... yes, there are acoustic materials like you mentioned but the cost factor is rather a matter to contend with.

A better alternative is tempered glass.  The physical construction of tempered glass permits it from stopping the conductance of sound energy.  A 3/8" tempered plate glass doubled by a 1/2"tempered glass also on the other side can give you very good STC numbers.  In my case, I use differing plate glasses, not necessarily tempered ones (again, expensive), but make use of a big air gap in between, and making sure that the walls are totally isolated from one another.  How to do that is another story.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 27, 2006, 02:32:40 AM
Question is... where does one get clear vinyl of sufficient thickness here?

Not available here (anymore).  You have to import it.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Blueberri on December 28, 2006, 11:09:43 PM
question po mga sir,

Does hardiflex have better soundproofing properties than ordinary plywood?? so would it be better to use them making doors and for ceilings??

thanks!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 29, 2006, 02:11:09 AM
Yes, a 1/4" hardiflex or cement board would have almost the same STC as a 1/2" gypsum.  The problem is, they are heavy.  Hence, after a while your door will droop and you would have a hard time closing it.  They are better used for walls in place of wall boards or gypsum.  They are also heavy for ceiling.  Gypsum would be better for that.  Aside from those things, another matter to consider is, they are expensive.  1/4" Hardi is more expensive than 1/2" gyp.  I'd still go for gypsum or wall boards.

For doors, you are better off using wood, plywood designed in a "sandwiched" manner.  The other alternative would be steel with honeycomb inserts and isolation.  As to how to do that is a little complicated.  That is the reason why they sell acoustically rated doors commercially and they are expensive.

So, what do you do?  First, do you really need an acoustically rated door?  The way to do it, as I mentioned earlier, is to have a soundlock.

As I mentioned previously, acoustics is no easy task.  You're talking here of just isolation.  How about the response of your room?  That's where things become complicated.  Remember Direk's posts on room modes and  other things?  Those are just a portion of it.

FWIW 
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 08, 2007, 03:00:05 AM
mga sir i really need help here... so basically 1/2" gypsum boards will do the job in isolating sound leaking thru my door?? i dont really need a 100% isolation.. i just want to minimize the sound coming out my entrance door.. ang lakas kasi, nakakahiya na sa mga kapitbahay kapag may ng jam ng gabi..

another thing, yung gypsum board ba pwede ka mag pa customize ng size, kasing size ng door? and how do you install it?? thanks again mga sir...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 08, 2007, 10:59:25 PM
I do not recommend gypsum for doors.  It is too heavy and can break easily if the door is opened or closed rather more than occasionally.  I would go for wood doors with insulation inside.  Also make sure that the surrounding edges would have something like neoprene gaskets to stop sound from coming out.  Refrigerator seals are very good alternatives aside from the Riven weather rubber seals you can get at True Value or Ace Hardware.

Search the net for door designs.  You can get ideas from them.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 08, 2007, 11:37:24 PM
thanks sir! bumili ako nung riven na yun, yung nabibili sa ace.. badtrip. ayaw naman dumikit. nasayang lang...  hehehe... actually binili ko yun para pang isolate naman ng lamig.. hanap nalang rin ako nung refregerator seals na yan.. mukhang maganda nga.. yung main door namin sir is yung solid door siya.. hindi hollow yung loob nya.. cge hanap ako sa net ng door design..pero i guess hindi na kami makakapag palit ng pintuan... hindi na kaya ng buget. hehehe..  sana may alternative pa.. im also thinking of using thick foam....
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 09, 2007, 10:40:41 PM
Don't use foam.  Dangerous.  Plus, it can absorb sound but not stop it.  What you need to stop sound is something solid - massive.  Useless to use it for doors.  Use solid core doors and put weather strips around the jambs - side, top and bottom.  That way you eliminate sound seepages.  Good luck.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: BAMF on January 09, 2007, 11:03:28 PM
Our studio used foam balloted, este, wrapped in fabric. I even used rebonded undermat (foam used underneath carpets) because it's the cheapest of the lot.  Well...yeah I'm on a tight budget. Anyway, attenuation is quite good, so is the sound treatment. The massive 6" Jackbilt hollowblocks from which the walls are made from also help a lot. I still get sound seepage through the door and aircon hole though, and through a small portion in the ceiling. But for the most part, I'm told that the aircon upstairs is actually louder than the drummer in the studio beating like there's no tomorrow.

I think I have to buy a rather large fire extinguisher.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 09, 2007, 11:33:47 PM
I think I have to buy a rather large fire extinguisher.

Kidding aside, YES, you should.  You are in a pretty "flammable" place.  Just make sure nobody smokes, lights a candle or play firecrackers or fireworks.  Also, watch out on your electricals - lights, conduiting, wires.  Just be on the look out.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: BAMF on January 10, 2007, 12:14:01 AM
Well...I did look around. Uratex has Acoustic foam products that look like the convoluted bedding foam, except it's flame retardant.

But it costs an arm and a leg. Oh well.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on January 10, 2007, 12:21:38 AM
hi guys. ive read this thread a couple of times. nahilo na rin ako a couple of times. hehe. anyway, i'm thinking of having a  rehearsal studio. ang nasa isip ko is to rent an apartment-up & down. studio sa baba & dun ako titira sa 2nd floor. mga magkano kaya pasound proof nung ibaba? kahit rough estimate lang.. :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 10, 2007, 12:26:56 AM
bro depende sa size ng area yan.. masasabi ko lang, mahal ang materiales pero worth it naman!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: BAMF on January 10, 2007, 12:41:12 AM
Well Bryan, to give you an example of the math I made for a properly soundproofed (but not yet acoustically treated room), the area to be soundproofed was 13' X 18'. Gypsum board costs about P300+ for a 4X8. Together with its fittings and still without the labor and the fiberglass mat "sandwich" that I forgot to factor in, the gypsum boards and mounting hardware alone cost P15,000 . Around that ballpark as I remember it.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 10, 2007, 12:49:22 AM
ako naman 7 peace of rockwool, for sound absorbers, pati fiberglass for bass traps, and kahoy, nasa more than 10k na! hindi na ako ng palabor. ako nalang lahat gumawa.. kala ko dati aabutin lang ako ng 8k. pero grabe....
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on January 10, 2007, 01:06:13 AM
wah.. :cry: ang mahal. how about kung room with in a room-hollow blocks. typical na maliliit na apartment ngayon. pwede rin ba yung ganun? mas mura ba o mas mahal?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: xjepoyx on January 10, 2007, 01:21:59 AM
mejo noob pa din ako sa soundproofing and acoustics kaya nga aattend ako ng workshop ni sir mikep. pero tingin ko mas mura magagastos mo kung concrete na yung walls mo.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on January 10, 2007, 01:25:22 AM
kasi usually concrete na walls diba? so ang ibig mo rin bang sabihin panibagong concrete walls ulit right?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: xjepoyx on January 10, 2007, 01:33:27 AM
kasi usually concrete na walls diba? so ang ibig mo rin bang sabihin panibagong concrete walls ulit right?

 i mean kung concrete na yung walls nung apartment hehehe. may mga practice studios kasi na yung walls ng may door nila eh wood pa rin.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 10, 2007, 01:49:39 AM
... and mounting hardware alone cost P15,000 . 

Mura yan.  I was thinking more like PhP 150,000.00.  I use apat hangang limang patong ng gypsum for walls, plus, double metal studs, glass fiber inside, grounding, etc.  If you wanna do it right, that's the way to do it.

Hollow blocks on floating floor?  That's too heavy.  You have to have a slab floor to support that, plus heavy duty floor acoustic isolators.  Millions!  No joke.  Unless necessary, forget room within a room isolation technique.  Unless you know how to do it.  Very expensive and very complicated to undertake.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on January 10, 2007, 12:56:45 PM
sorry for my ignorance.. pero di ba pwedeng magtayo ng isa pang pader na nakadikit sa existing pader. wala talaga akong alam sa construction eh. ano po yung floating at yung slab?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: skunkyfunk on January 10, 2007, 01:34:06 PM
sorry for my ignorance.. pero di ba pwedeng magtayo ng isa pang pader na nakadikit sa existing pader. wala talaga akong alam sa construction eh. ano po yung floating at yung slab?

Dude, to make a long story short, you need metal studs and metal tracks like these (which measure 2.4m or 3m long):

(http://phillipsmfg.com/images/prod/mcif/drywall/STUDS.jpg)
(http://phillipsmfg.com/images/prod/mcif/drywall/TRACKS.jpg)
Then, you need your insulating material (ie rockwool or fiberglass).  I prefer 60kg density 50mm rockwool slabs that come in 0.6mx1.2m sizes. 

You also need gypsum board.  They come in 1/2" and 3/16" but I prefer the 1/2" slabs.  They are sized at 1.2mx2.4m. Doubling or tripling the  boards works much better. 

For your tools, you need a putty knife, power drill, a riveter, and also, you need some gypsum plaster tape, rivets, gypsum putty and gypsum screws (they look like wood screws, only black in color). 

To make a long story short, you need cut and rivet the metal tracks and studs to make metal frames sized at 0.6x1.2m.  You have to mount the frames to the celing and floor against the concrete wall) where you shall stuff your insulating material in. The gypsum boards are stuck to the metal studs using a drill and the gypsum screws.  Some say it would be best to put some foam tape on the studs where the screws shall be drilled.

The concrete wall will be the innermost layer, the rockwool/fiberglass as the middle layer, and the gypsum board as the outermost layer.  Sa madaling salita, GYPSUM/ROCKWOOL/CONCRETE WALL sandwich. 



Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 10, 2007, 07:43:45 PM
You can do that, Hollow Blocks+ Air Gap (about 2 inches) + Insulating Material (to control resonance) + Hollow Blocks, but if you are in the second floor, that whole thing is very heavy.  It will have an effect on the building structure.  The better way is doing a sandwich wall as Skunkyfunk has suggested.  But make sure the second wall does not touch the first wall, otherwise you will have a short circuit.  Vibrations from the first wall are transferred to the second wall.  Your sound proofing will be useless.  I normally use acoustical rubber or neoprene mounts to isolate walls and floors, and acoustical ceiling isolators for ceilings.  I had these done based on my design.  You can buy these locally but very expensive as they are imported.  Basic Machineries, Youil and Mason are some of those who carry these products locally.

BTW, I would normally put a Farraday cage, grounded, to keep RF from getting inside the room.  Yes, it has happened lots of times when everything is well insulated, then RF, especially with unbalanced connectors.  A cage is a nice solution aside from using everything balanced including your power.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on January 11, 2007, 01:35:52 AM
What do you use for the Faraday, Mike? Steel mesh?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 12, 2007, 12:10:05 AM
What do you use for the Faraday, Mike? Steel mesh?

Metal mesh with copper strap or thick wire placed on top and under all over the entire cage.  Then, sent to ground.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 12, 2007, 12:16:21 AM
sir anu po yung RF? and anu po yung cage na sinasabi nyo? hehehe. sorry di ko po maintindihan.. can you post pics?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: rocketboy on January 12, 2007, 12:16:41 AM
just thought this would be of some help...

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on January 12, 2007, 12:54:20 AM
sir anu po yung RF? and anu po yung cage na sinasabi nyo? hehehe. sorry di ko po maintindihan.. can you post pics?

Terms you will commonly see:

RF - Radio Frequency
RFI - Radio Frequency Interference
EMI - ElectroMagnetic Interference
Faraday Cage - a metal shield encasing an object or room to prevent RF or EM intrusion. Most common indication of RF intrusion is when you hear radio station signals from your gear especially if you're situated near a transmitter.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 12, 2007, 01:00:03 AM
hmmm.. i seee. thanks sir.. nangyayari pala yun.. btw, sa mga anung gears usually nakakasagap ng ganung signals?? speakers? amps? or wireless mics? how is this possible?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on January 12, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
hmmm.. i seee. thanks sir.. nangyayari pala yun.. btw, sa mga anung gears usually nakakasagap ng ganung signals?? speakers? amps? or wireless mics? how is this possible?

Practically anything metallic given the right conditions. Ever heard about the tooth filling that could receive radio signals? Dentists used to use amalgam, a metallic filler for cavities before ceramic and resin-based fillers became the norm (something about mercury in the amalgam led to its discontinuation). Anyway, some guy complained about hearing music in his head and what they found was that his amalgam filling was acting as a radio receiver! Look up cat's whisker diodes and you'll know what I mean.

The same diode principle sometimes happens with audio gear. In my case, it was crud developing on one of my 1/4" cables. When I plugged it into my synth, I could hear faint radio transmissions from a nearby FM station - I was wearing headphones at the time. The oxidation on the 1/4" jack acted as a diode.

Anything that has coils of wire in it can also generate RFI and EMI, transformers and flourescent ballasts, for example. Try putting a single coil pickup near those and listen to glorious 60 hz hum coming from your amp.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 13, 2007, 04:12:11 AM
Unbalanced lines are usual culprits, especially if your happen to be very near a radio or TV transmitter.  AM and over modulated FM stations give out a lot of RFI.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Thechief on January 17, 2007, 10:52:41 PM
mga sir, san po ba nakakabili ng acoustic foam? san po ba nabibili yung usual na nasa band rehearsal studio, yung parang egg tray pero foam.. thanks
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Agent_So on January 17, 2007, 10:58:57 PM
you can buy those foam sa mga uratex outlets.. pero like masters here said, hindi siya ganun ka effective katulad ng mga acoustic foams talaga like auralex.. www.auralex.com.. and yung mga ordinary foam can be fire hazardous.. better use, fiberglass or rockwool..
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Thechief on January 27, 2007, 04:29:27 PM
mga master,    dami na ako nabasa tungkol sa pag soundproof ng walls..how about flooring... im about to rent a commercial space for my planned band rehearsal studio.. it will be on a second floor.. 1 foot yata ang kapal ng concrete nung flooring nun.. same principle din siguro ang pagsoundproof ng floor and wall,, pero sa materials same din po ba?(e.g. gypsum board, ok lang ba kung yan ang gagamitin or may mas appropriate na alternative)..
tapos yung isang side ng wall (yung front view mula sa labas) ay glass.. as far as i have been reading sa mga articles, mababa ang stc rating ng glass compared sa 8 inches na concrete.. how do i treat it?.... thanks thanks thanks
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: skunkyfunk on January 28, 2007, 01:34:24 AM
mga master,    dami na ako nabasa tungkol sa pag soundproof ng walls..how about flooring... im about to rent a commercial space for my planned band rehearsal studio.. it will be on a second floor.. 1 foot yata ang kapal ng concrete nung flooring nun.. same principle din siguro ang pagsoundproof ng floor and wall,, pero sa materials same din po ba?(e.g. gypsum board, ok lang ba kung yan ang gagamitin or may mas appropriate na alternative)..
tapos yung isang side ng wall (yung front view mula sa labas) ay glass.. as far as i have been reading sa mga articles, mababa ang stc rating ng glass compared sa 8 inches na concrete.. how do i treat it?.... thanks thanks thanks

For the floor, try puzzle mats and/or 1- 2 layers of 3/8" rebonded foam (like the ones you see under carpets for cars) then carpet. 

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on July 04, 2007, 11:47:15 PM
up ko lang po. :-)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on July 05, 2007, 11:17:50 AM
Here are some links:
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,6645.0.html
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,8387.15.html start with Reply #18
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,17620.15.html
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,25949.0.html
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,27596.0.html
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,28284.0.html
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,30513.0.html
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,54650.0.html
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: xjepoyx on July 05, 2007, 01:59:00 PM
brian hindi ba flooding na ginagawa mo? hehe
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on July 05, 2007, 02:05:59 PM
haha. iba iba namang links yun. sige pagsasamasamahin ko na lang.:)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: xjepoyx on July 05, 2007, 02:08:40 PM
you should have ask boss kitc to merge the different threads na lang

:D

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on July 05, 2007, 02:38:06 PM
di bale, sinisipag eh. hekhek. modified na po mga kapatid.:)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Neverexisted on October 11, 2007, 02:53:34 PM
Hey People kakahilo magbasa, di ko pa rin mapicture out yung magandang settings ng pagsound proof.

Eto STRAIGHT TO THE POINT kong magiging basic setup.

-Ang pader at bubong ko ay gagawin kong solid hollowblocks. As in parang Bakod sa solid.

-Ang hindi lang hollowblocks made sa akin ay ang Pinto ko.

Question:
-Ang opposite side kasi nung Hollowblocks na yun ay apartment, Hindi na ba makakarating sa kanila yung ingay sa loob ng studio ko? Yung Vibrations?

-Ano pa ang kelangan ko idikit sa walls ko at ceiling tutal made from solid hollowblocks naman ang lahat ng sides?

-Dapat ba ang drumset, at mga amps ay hindi nakapatong sa ground mismo?

Eto nga pala yung pic ng garden namin na balak kong gawin music studio.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13394803@N07/sets/72157602235592771/detail/

Reply naman kayo ha. Thanks!

Medyo related rin ito sa settup ng music studio, pwede rin nyo dun ipost ang reply nyo sa thread kong ito
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,57640.0.html
Title: Re: Recording Studio Directory
Post by: axebass26 on November 19, 2007, 10:05:14 PM
boss mods pa move or direct nalang ako sa thread na about my querry... di gumagana yung search function eh, stressed daw yung server eh...

mga magkano ba aabutin pag mag puput up ako ng rehearsal studio? yung rent variable naman eh... yung sa soundproofing and equipment lang tanong ko...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on November 24, 2007, 03:32:27 PM
magandang araw

may rehearsal studio po kami. tapos sa taas nun may kwarto.
makapal na kahoy lang ang pagitan so, pag nandon ako, rinig na rinig ko parin ang lahat.

ung sandwiched na walls, pwede din po ba maaplly sa ceiling un?

ung gagawan ko ng bagong frame ung celing para kabitan ko ng mga harrdiflex. pwede na po ba un?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on November 24, 2007, 03:41:42 PM
yung floor ko po, semento.

dati covered po ng carpet ung sahig, eh sobrang hirap po linisin ng carpet eh, so pinalitan ko ng vynil tiles.

napansin ko lang, medyo lumakas ugong ng kick.  kaya lang, lagi kasi namin ginagalaw settings ng kick drums. laging iniiba ung tono, lagin napapalitan ung foam. so hindi ko masabi kung ung vynil tiles ba ang salarin.

what can you say? ano po ba effect kapag ganon?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: s2ry0fdyr on December 06, 2007, 12:43:12 AM
up lang natin
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 06, 2007, 11:44:55 PM
Removing the carpet and putting tiles made the room more boomy (more reverberant).  You should apply the same kind of absorption in your room so the sound would be tighter and less boomy.  How to do it?  Put area rugs all over your flooring.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: leachim on December 11, 2007, 07:30:55 PM
YESSSSSSS may nahanap akong supplier... sa makati lang to

Glasswool - http://www.tlimpex.com/glasswoolRefractory.html

http://www.tlimpex.com/WallpanelfiberglassFabric.html

Rock Woll - http://www.tlimpex.com/WallpanelRockWool.html

Fasteners:

http://www.tlimpex.com/InsulationFastenerINDEX.html

Philippine Office: #712 Cityland Pasong Tamo Cond. Estacion St. PDP. Makati City, Philippines  Tel: 632-8874461 or 63-9159920233 


Mga sir.. check nyo naman kung pwede namin gamitin tong mga to para sa Sound Proofing Needs namin.. :) THANK YOU

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: leachim on December 11, 2007, 08:56:16 PM
PRODUCTS & SERVICES
CSR Glasswool Insulation, CSR Fibertex Rockwool, CSR Thermofoil, CSR PGH Clay Bricks Payers, CSR Gyprock Gypsum Board, CSR Fibercement Boards, CSR Bradflex, Speediflex
COMPANY NAME
CSR Building Materials (Philippines) Limited

ADDRESS
702, 7/F Page I Building
1215 Acacia Avenue
Madrigal Business Park, Ayala Alabang
1780 Muntinlupa, Philippines

TELEPHONE
7710651; 7710650

FAX
7710649
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: leachim on December 12, 2007, 06:27:57 PM
Nakabili na ako ng CSR ROCKWOOL :)

Meron pala silang branch sa Marikina mas malapit sa amin..

P250/Slab (.6m x 1.2m) .. GANDA GANDA :)

Ito nga pala WEbsite nila http://www.csr-in-asia.com/product.html
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on December 12, 2007, 07:59:33 PM
Very nice! Thanks for the valuable info, leachim!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: micr0chimp on December 20, 2007, 08:45:33 AM
Awesome info!  Salamat ng madami, ser!  :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on December 20, 2007, 09:03:16 AM
for the walls of a recording studio, what do you think about this setup:

Concrete Wall (typical hollow blocks and cement)
+
6 inches space
+
Another Concrete wall
+
Curtains on the surface- as thick as those seen in stage plays. compressed to form waves.


Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 20, 2007, 04:45:57 PM
for the walls of a recording studio, what do you think about this setup:

Concrete Wall (typical hollow blocks and cement)
+
6 inches space
+
Another Concrete wall
+
Curtains on the surface- as thick as those seen in stage plays. compressed to form waves.




Over constructed.  You do not have room anymore for the studio proper.  If anything, one CHB wall plastered with 1/2" to 1" cement will do the job.  Make sure all possible areas where sound can seep through are covered or sealed.

Thick curtains are okay on 2 sides of the room.  Leave the two other walls open - cement walls.  Put area rugs on the cement floor.

If this was a practice room, it will be okay.  If a recording studio, you need a more sophisticated design.  It is expensive to just experiment.  Good luck.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on December 21, 2007, 11:43:16 AM
thanks for that sir mikeP!

pero teka lang po... what is a CHB wall?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: stilljey on December 21, 2007, 10:51:58 PM

pero teka lang po... what is a CHB wall?


Concrete Hollow Block
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on December 26, 2007, 09:51:15 AM
ooooh... salamat

so double walling a recording studio is not necessary?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: bandztudio on December 26, 2007, 11:59:41 AM
Very informative thread. Were learning very much from the Pros. I suggest, if in the near future you will go to serious recording, do the room acoustics right the first time. Kasi if you are already in business (kahit rehearsals muna), you would not want to interrupt your operations for a major renovation...hassle...


Bandztudio


Auditions
341 Katipunan Ave., Loyola Heights, Quezon City
www.auditonstudio.multiply.com (http://www.auditonstudio.multiply.com)

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: randolf_angelo on December 26, 2007, 07:09:56 PM
Nakabili na ako ng CSR ROCKWOOL :)

Meron pala silang branch sa Marikina mas malapit sa amin..

P250/Slab (.6m x 1.2m) .. GANDA GANDA :)

Ito nga pala WEbsite nila http://www.csr-in-asia.com/product.html
where exactly is this in Marikina? thanks! :-)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on December 26, 2007, 07:17:45 PM
so double walling a recording studio is not necessary?

It depends. 2 concrete walls is way too overkill, but a room-within-a-room concept depends on how much sound isolation you want to achieve. For example, if your studio is located near a busy roadway, you will want as much isolation to shield you from rumble and other noises coming from outside. Another case is if you are in a commercial apartment and the neighbors are complaining of sound leaching into their unit.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on December 26, 2007, 08:54:02 PM
so double walling a recording studio is not necessary?

Double walling the recording studio side is the cheaper alternative.  The control room side can have a higher noise criteria rating, thus, you may not do double walling.  If you have CHB walls, as long as they are plastered and painted, they will give you a respectable isolation.  But for the studio side, where you record your vocals, instruments, etc., additional walling is always necessary especially for low frequency control.  A room within a room concept is the best design for a studio.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on December 26, 2007, 09:45:07 PM
tnx!
things are clearer now.

so if two CHB wall is an overkill, how should i double wall?

how about this:

CHB wall(outer layer)
+
6-inch space
+
1-inch thick plywood(inner)

thats just for the recording side of the room. 
i now understand that double walling the control room is not necessary

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on December 26, 2007, 11:00:07 PM
Try this:

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Go to Construction and Studio Plans sections to get some ideas.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on December 27, 2007, 08:39:13 AM
tnx sir kit! ganda nito!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: leachim on January 18, 2008, 05:04:11 AM
Setup ko is:

Wall (wood) + 4-6 inch space + Gypsum 1/2 + Rockwool 50 + 2 inch space + Gypsum 1/2..

ayus lang ba to.


Tsaka pwede bang gawing Bass Trap ang Rockwool 60?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on January 18, 2008, 08:28:38 PM
sir leachim, saan nakukuha at magkano ang rockwool?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on January 19, 2008, 02:43:52 AM
Setup ko is:

Wall (wood) + 4-6 inch space + Gypsum 1/2 + Rockwool 50 + 2 inch space + Gypsum 1/2..

ayus lang ba to.


Tsaka pwede bang gawing Bass Trap ang Rockwool 60?

Dapat Wall (wood) + 4 - 6 inch air space + Roxkwool 50 + 1/2 Gypsum+1/2 gypsum.

Rockwool is just one of th components in making a bass trap.  Effectivity of the low frequency absorption depends on how thick your rockwool is, or the depth of your bass trap, where you use the rockwool to aborb soundwaves inside the trap.  Look into site where bass traps are discussed.  The bigger the cavity, the lower the frequency it will absorb.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: Ralphmuscn on January 28, 2008, 10:31:27 AM
check the ff. site  www.acousticfirst.com   www.gkacoustics.com.

 
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: immanbegins on February 29, 2008, 09:13:43 PM
sir, i need your help regarding the studio that im constructing in calbayog city samar... it is ready now for sound proofing (ill post pic of the studio tomorrow).,. all sides of the walls are concrete also the ceiling is concrete..

1.   how do i soundproof the walls, what materials do i use..
2.   how do i soundproof the ceiling..
3.                                 door...
4.                                  window between control room and live room


and were do i buy this materials because there are no soundproofing materials here in calbayog.. can u give me contact number of the suppliers.. were can i get it cheap...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: xboughtbybloodx on March 02, 2008, 01:01:04 PM
ako naman 7 peace of rockwool, for sound absorbers, pati fiberglass for bass traps, and kahoy, nasa more than 10k na! hindi na ako ng palabor. ako nalang lahat gumawa.. kala ko dati aabutin lang ako ng 8k. pero grabe....
sir lahat po nyan for 10k lng?kc nung nagtingin ako ng mineral wool plang sa ortigas abot na ng 20k?where did you get your rockwool?please reply im desperately looking for cheaper rockwool/mineral wool cos i will be starting to soundproof my studio very soon.anyone who can help please do...thanks mga sirs!!!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: xboughtbybloodx on March 02, 2008, 01:03:06 PM
mga ser ok lng ba kng gamitin ko marine ply for my double walling instead of gypsum boards or acoustic board?and how thick should the mineral wool be?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: luin_theblue on March 04, 2008, 09:56:55 AM
They say that a room with a wooden ceiling/floor, one wooden wall, two opposing concrete walls, and one real brickwall is a good setup. One just has to add more woods and foam here and there...

...is this a good setup? They say recording drums and guitars are good this way with the back of the amps and drums facing the brickwall. What about vocals?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on March 04, 2008, 01:41:45 PM
Doing a room to sound good is not just a matter of putting surface materials here and there.  You have to compute for the correct RT60, NCs and wall STCs.  That's a lot of math.  You want your room to sound good, study acoustics, how sound behaves and other elements in recording.  The net has a lot of info on that.  A lot of books about studio design are also available for the taking.  Do not just guess.  It will cost you a lot of money.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: luin_theblue on March 04, 2008, 01:47:05 PM
Doing a room to sound good is not just a matter of putting surface materials here and there.  You have to compute for the correct RT60, NCs and wall STCs.  That's a lot of math.  You want your room to sound good, study acoustics, how sound behaves and other elements in recording.  The net has a lot of info on that.  A lot of books about studio design are also available for the taking.  Do not just guess.  It will cost you a lot of money.

FWIW

I'm not making fun or guesswork for the sake of it, bro. Neither am I good at this so yeah, I'll take the tip. But then again, there are tricks that hit the jackpot by accident, right? Guys like Bon Jovi recording vocals in his kitchen counter, and they found that it sounded good by accident.

Peace out.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on March 04, 2008, 01:52:05 PM
Sure.  There are lot of instances where super sounding recordings were obtained at different locations or manners of recording.  But better to be fully educated and being able to know the nuances to obtain such "great" acquisitions.  They may be accidents but the guys who did it understand the basics.  In the case of doing a studio, it is rather prohibitive to do experimentations.  I have been there, done that.  So, I am just giving a friendly (or brotherly) advise.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: martian0413 on March 05, 2008, 03:29:27 PM
mga sir..where can i buy rockwool here in Qc.or in near places? :? :-D
salamat at mabuhay!!!!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on March 07, 2008, 06:11:02 PM
sirs, tanong lang.. yun bang soundproofing and acoustic treatment na gagawin sa isang room eh detachable? halimbawang aalis ka na dun sa nirerent mo?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: SAITOHAJIME on March 11, 2008, 11:14:00 PM
Guys, I've been planning to put up my own practice room (band setup), Using my 7X14 ft. open space on the 2nd floor of my house. I've already have the walls built with 4" CHB walls and 1/4" plywood ceilings (the floors are concrete).

Iniisip ko kung pwede ito.
12mm gypsum board with 2" thick rockwool fiber 60kg as a filler for the walls.
regular carpeting for the floor. And acoustic boards for the ceilings.

Rough estimate ko dito eh mga 40,000 ang lahat including the labor. Which is a bit out of my budget. Meron ba kayong naiisip na alternative? Or baka meron kayong kilalalang murang supplier?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on March 16, 2008, 05:21:32 PM
sirs, tanong lang.. yun bang soundproofing and acoustic treatment na gagawin sa isang room eh detachable? halimbawang aalis ka na dun sa nirerent mo?

pwede nga ba itong ganito? halimbawa, nagrent ka lang ng commercial space, pero hindi ka sure kung permanent ka sa lugar na yon. pwede bang, i-disassemble yung  treatments mo sa kwarto?

o pumapayag ba ung bulding owners na magtayo ng studio kahit hindi siya commercial space?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: sound formula on April 04, 2008, 07:51:58 PM
Sirs and ma'ams, I am need of bass traps for my control room. I wish to do it DIY to (hopefully) save on money. What can I use as materials for my bass traps? If you will also be kind enough to give me some building/constructing tips to make the traps practical and at the same time effective, it would be really appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on April 04, 2008, 07:59:29 PM
Sirs and ma'ams, I am need of bass traps for my control room. I wish to do it DIY to (hopefully) save on money. What can I use as materials for my bass traps? If you will also be kind enough to give me some building/constructing tips to make the traps practical and at the same time effective, it would be really appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Just google DIY bass traps... here's one: http://www.runet.edu/~shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: rad_12 on April 17, 2008, 11:42:13 AM
mga sir im not into soundproofing stuffs pero nagka-interes ako. base sa mga magazines and places na napuntahan ko like yung sa philamlife theater sa UN ave. napansin ko parang wood ginamit nila sa acoustics nung lugar. yun din nabasa ko sa mga magazines ko dito. sabi kasi mas maganda yung wood acoustics na may mga spaces from each other before the main wall. maybe that idea can be apply on building a studio. pero mukhang mahal, na-share ko lang please correct me mga sir or enlighten me na lang.  :-)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on April 18, 2008, 08:04:28 PM
base sa mga magazines and places na napuntahan ko like yung sa philamlife theater sa UN ave. napansin ko parang wood ginamit nila sa acoustics nung lugar.

Wood is a very reflective acoustical material reflecting more of the higher frequencies and absorbing low frequencies.  To get the correct room balance in an acoustical nature, you have to combine wood with diffusive and absorptive materials.  The reason why wood was mainly used in the PhilamLife Auditorium is because it was designed as a concert hall - with higher reverberation especially on the HF.  Here, however, high frequency control is done through carpets on the floor, the leatherette type seats, people and the curtains by the proscenium.  Mid frequency control is done through some absorptive treatment somewhere.  I have not been to PhilamLife for a long time, but if memory serves me right, the wood panels were devised as diffusive elementsl - to get a nice sonic character for the room; with ample control of bass, raising up on the mids and good, clear highs.

Can you use wood in studios?  You can, but it depends n what kind of character you want for your studio.  If you want a highly reflective and highly reverberated room, where orchestras, strings, classical music would be best recorded, wood would be it.  If you want a flexible studio that is capable of doing rock, pop, jazz, etc., a combination of the different acoustic treatments, aside from wood, is necessary.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on April 19, 2008, 10:29:47 AM
Bakit nga ba pala gypsum ang ginagamit imbis na plywood? alin ang mas mahal? at mas mabigat?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: rad_12 on April 19, 2008, 02:25:48 PM
thank your sir for the added info.   :-)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on April 19, 2008, 03:33:43 PM
Bakit nga ba pala gypsum ang ginagamit imbis na plywood? alin ang mas mahal? at mas mabigat?

Gypsum kasi is not as resonant as plywood; kinda inert, thus, better in terms of controlling sound colorations in the room.  That is why they use gypsum as wall and ceiling panelling a lot.  Doubling the wall with gypsum give out a very good STC rating.  Furthermore, they are cheaper than plywood.  The price of a 1/2" gypsum is about half the price of plywood of the same thickness.  Ano ang mas mabigat?  Plywood yata (not sure).

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on April 20, 2008, 09:22:15 PM
I see. Thanks so much po Mr. Pedero.:)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on April 28, 2008, 11:18:56 PM
question lang po.. ano gagawin nyo kapag me isang window lang ang isang room at yung part nun eh lalagyan nyo ng aircon. paano nyo isasoundproof yung remaining area ng window?
thanks.:)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on April 29, 2008, 02:41:46 PM
ano gagawin nyo kapag me isang window lang ang isang room at yung part nun eh lalagyan nyo ng aircon. paano nyo isasoundproof yung remaining area ng window?

Pag-window type ang air con mo, sayang lang ang pag-soundproof, kasi yung window type air con may mga butas,  So, maski na i-soundproof mo yung room, your air con will now be the source of unwanted noise from the outside.  Sayang lang pera mo.  Better to get a split type, mas mahal but better soundproofing wise.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on April 30, 2008, 02:31:09 AM
I see.. Thanks.:)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: peeves24 on April 30, 2008, 03:31:41 PM
questions questions questions... :-D

ilang decibels ba ang normal na naririnig mo sa rehearsal studio or sa bar?

im trying to determine how much soundproofing i would need. i'll hire experts to do the construction but i just want to do some research to make an informed decision.

i looked at this chart and saw that normal background noise in residential areas is somewhere between 30 to 50db

http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/dBexamp.html

assuming bands generate an average of 120db noise. my target is to get at least a minimum noise level of 50db


now lets go to the available wall designs based on this site

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

am i correct to assume that the STC rating is the amount of db that a wall can isolate?

let's say i'll go for steel studs with 3 layers of plasterboard with insulation for the walls. the site indicates that i would get an STC rating of 64 so does that mean that it will bring down the 120db noise to 56db?

what about the ceiling? what if my ceiling is designed for STC 49? does that add up to the STC rating of the wall e.g. 120-(49+64) = 7db isolation?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on April 30, 2008, 06:06:59 PM
Normally, you should only be generating from 85 to 95 dBA in the studio, otherwise you are doing it too loud.  120 dBA is threshold of pain.

let's say i'll go for steel studs with 3 layers of plasterboard with insulation for the walls. the site indicates that i would get an STC rating of 64 so does that mean that it will bring down the 120db noise to 56db?

About.

what about the ceiling? what if my ceiling is designed for STC 49? does that add up to the STC rating of the wall e.g. 120-(49+64) = 7db isolation?

120-49 would be your ceiling's isolation characteristic.  Your studio will be generating much noise at 120 dBA.  But since you maintain a lower SPL inside the studio, your generated noise level could be acceptable.  For explanation purposes, if your walls have an STC of 64, your ceiling should have the same STC number.  Your effective isolation number will be 56 dBA.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: peeves24 on May 02, 2008, 08:38:04 AM
thanks sir mike!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on May 02, 2008, 10:31:34 PM
how do you soundproof a window? sasarahan po ba? paano po kaya? not sure kung natackle na po ito..
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on May 02, 2008, 11:13:27 PM
pano kung puro glass po lahat ng walls ng studio? soundproof na po ba yon?

as in glass na kamuka ng nasa 7-11, ministop, mcdo. mga ganon.

fiber glass po un diba?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: skunkyfunk on May 14, 2008, 09:38:39 PM
Just a question.  How many of you use Carrying Channels or Double Furrings mounted to frames of metal studs and tracks to carry a the drywall (gypsum board) instead of simply mounting the drywall to the metal studs and use double-sided tape in between the studs and the drywall?

Thing is, I recommend using carrying channels on top of the standard metal studs/tracks to a certain person who wants his room soundproofed.  Of course, that would mean more stud mounts for the carrying channels or furrings. I just haven't compared side by side if mounting the drywall on the studs would suffice.

We wanna avoid flanking and as such, we want a more "detached" wall.

Sir Mike can you help?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on May 14, 2008, 10:27:29 PM
I am not sure of what you are referring to, but it seems you are talking about resilient strips - sort of metal strips that you place between two gypsum wall boards which provide some isolation to one layer of gypsum from the main gypsum wall.  These are effective as they also provide differences in the resonance frequencies of the two wall boards.  However, there are other ways of achieving  good isolation. 1)  Increasing the weight of the wall by adding layers of gypsum boards; 2) wider spacing of leaves or bigger air gaps between the wall boards; 3) use of staggered studs; 4) adding insulation blankets in between the wall boards, inside the cavity; and 5) caulking the perimeters with non hardening compound.  Doing all of these or a combination will result to good isolation.

Flanking happens when your joints are not properly sealed.  As long as there are no holes where sound can pass, your soundproofing will be okay.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: skunkyfunk on May 14, 2008, 11:09:40 PM
I am not sure of what you are referring to, but it seems you are talking about resilient strips - sort of metal strips that you place between two gypsum wall boards which provide some isolation to one layer of gypsum from the main gypsum wall.  These are effective as they also provide differences in the resonance frequencies of the two wall boards.  However, there are other ways of achieving  good isolation. 1)  Increasing the weight of the wall by adding layers of gypsum boards; 2) wider spacing of leaves or bigger air gaps between the wall boards; 3) use of staggered studs; 4) adding insulation blankets in between the wall boards, inside the cavity; and 5) caulking the perimeters with non hardening compound.  Doing all of these or a combination will result to good isolation.

Flanking happens when your joints are not properly sealed.  As long as there are no holes where sound can pass, your soundproofing will be okay.

FWIW

Many, many thanks sir mike!  Whew... A lot also recommend staggering the studs but that means, more gastos hehehe. 
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on May 15, 2008, 03:46:38 AM
I hope I was able to help.  Regards,
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on May 17, 2008, 03:48:43 PM
Hey, folks. I am new to this forum, but not to Philmusic per se. I am delighted to find this thread, which should come in handy as I build a personal project studio at home.

I am even more thrilled to learn from the masters, like MikeP. He is as legit and pro as they come. I should know because in the 90s, when Jim was just starting PhilMusic out of his ADB free time, I was a DJ for a radio station that MikeP co-founded (CityLite 88.3). That said, of course, he designed its on-air booth, where I went on the air for a good five years, and enjoyed every bit of it.

The last few weeks, I've been researching (you should too) about studio design. There are a ton of stuff on the Net. Of course, I bought a couple of books from the masters, Philip Newell, and F. Alton Everest, to name a few.

Like many of you, I am new to studio design/retrofitting. But already, I have much to share. For starters, here's my project studio, which I designed using BeLight's Live Interior 3D software, and lots of 3D object models from Google's 3D Warehouse:

http://www.textraextra.com/textra/images/LawnView.jpg (http://www.textraextra.com/textra/images/LawnView.jpg)
http://www.textraextra.com/textra/images/FarLeftCornerView.jpg (http://www.textraextra.com/textra/images/FarLeftCornerView.jpg)
http://www.textraextra.com/textra/images/FarRightCornerView.jpg (http://www.textraextra.com/textra/images/FarRightCornerView.jpg)

But don't be fooled. This is just the interior design. I am a long way from being able to afford this.  :-( But I can dream, can't I?

Of course, I have also gone deeper, beyond the looks and into the actual science of acoustics. Needless to say, I'm still a newbie, not like MikeP & Co. But if I am going to spend hard-earned money, I want to do it right, don't you? Anyway, I hope to share my newbie learnings along the way. And I hope to post the progress of "my new baby" on this forum, with pics and decision considerations.

For now, let me chime in on a recent post about furring channels. I, too, have been trying to source resilient channels here in Manila, but could not find them; not on the Net; not in Home Depot or Wilcon. The closest I got were these http://www.jeasteel.com.ph/cgi-bin/products/product_detail.asp?parent_id=2 (http://www.jeasteel.com.ph/cgi-bin/products/product_detail.asp?parent_id=2), hat-type furring channels. They look usable, but the hat was 1.5 to 2 inches deep, which meant it'll eat up more of my studio's interior space/floor area. Alternatively, I may just go with double dry walls, bonded together using Green Glue.

Like I said, there is much to share; too much, in fact, for one post. Stay tuned! ;)



Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: fybergear@maker on May 23, 2008, 07:41:40 PM
marami ako natutunan sa thread na ito. kung na sounproofed at na sealed na totally ang studio, paano naman ang fresh air circulation? kahit naka split type aircon na, kelangan pa rin siguro ng circulating fresh air galing sa labas para makahinga ng maayos sa loob ng studio? paano po ba malalagyan ng air ventilation na hindi maapektuhan ang soundproofing ng room? for recording purposes kasi ang studio. tabing highway ang pwesto kaya maingay sa labas. salamat po..
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on May 24, 2008, 02:34:26 PM
paano naman ang fresh air circulation?

best a/c is via HVAC (heating, ventilation, air conditioning) systems. if your studio is in a commercial building with centralized air conditioning, then your studio likely has HVAC. ask your building administrator.

there are HVAC systems for homes in the US, but understandably expensive. are there small HVAC systems in the philippines? if so, what's the minimum power configuration, in BTUs or HPs?

if HVAC is not a viable option, split-type a/c is your next best bet, because at least the compressor can be put some distance away, further isolating the compressor's noise (especially the low frequency ones) and structural vibration.

so the question now is "which split type a/c can you guys recommend?" and "how did you soundproof or seal the a/c tubes/pipes?" thanks.

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on May 25, 2008, 03:39:57 AM
You duct the air conditioning, with supply and return paths.  Make sure the ducts are fully insulated inside and out.  Design the air flow to be at least about 350 feet per minute.  The air flow should be felt and not be heard.

BTW, there are ducted air con systems available locally but a little expensive.  Call the air con manufacturers.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: pizarro84 on May 29, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
Good morning po  :-) tanong lang po ako ng inexpensive materials to kill the resonance (bedroom po) kasi pag nagse-set po ako ng effects pag dating sa labas iba na tunog dahil po sa resonance ng guitar amp sa kwarto ko. The room is 8' wide by 17' long and 10' high. Thanks po  :-)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on June 01, 2008, 07:11:06 PM
tanong lang po ako ng inexpensive materials to kill the resonance (bedroom po) kasi pag nagse-set po ako ng effects pag dating sa labas iba na tunog dahil po sa resonance ng guitar amp sa kwarto ko. The room is 8' wide by 17' long and 10' high.

@pizarro84: I am not sure I understand your objective. Do you want to reduce resonance or reduce sound transmission? What kind of sound are you looking for pag dating sa labas?

I am an amateur in these matters, unlike MikeP who is a pro's pro. But allow me to share the little that I have learned:
1) Your room dimensions, especially if you have parallel surfaces (wall-wall, ceiling-floor), will tend to boost certain frequencies.
2) The materials that "soundproof" your room have different resonating frequencies. Generally speaking, the more mass the lower the resonating frequency.

Do you want to reduce the sound leaking out of the room, or do you want to keep the room from shaking/vibrating with the sound, or both?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on June 01, 2008, 07:49:06 PM
I am converting a "garage" into a den/studio--not a recording studio per se. I just want a quiet room (my sanity room from all the city noise) that can double as a short term guest room once or twice a year. But I do want it to be quiet enough that I have the option of occasionally recording a vocalist or instrumentalist. Think of it as a quasi-control room with a sleepable couch. ;)

My biggest design concern now relates to the window. Using an old Nokia phone with a sound meter, I measured the sound levels outside the garage. The curb-side noise level hovered in the 70-80db range during the day, but occasionally peaked at low 90s when village tricycles zoomed by. That is not an issue because I will replace the garage door with an 8" solid concrete wall. But the noise at the lawn-side of the garage, where the window is, hovered in the 60s and occasionally peaked at 76db. Question is: What kind of window treatment would you suggest, assuming a window opening that is 8 feet wide, and 4 feet high?

No, getting rid of the window opening is not an option. This is my den/occasional guest room, not a commercial recording studio, and certainly not an unsightly bodega. I love natural light. The more the merrier. But unfortunately, the more light I let in, the more expensive it also becomes to soundproof. So I am settling for a compromise of 8'x4' window.

Will a 10mm plain glass on a 6" solid concrete wall, plus laminated glass on an isolated interior wall (drywall/staggered studs/rockwool/drywall) be "enough"? What would the effective STC of this combo be, assuming a 6" separation between the two glass panes? Even a rough estimate will do, give or take 5db.

And does anybody know how much 4'x'8' laminated glass cost? If you can post a supplier, that would help too.

Thanks!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: pizarro84 on June 02, 2008, 02:16:15 AM
@pizarro84: I am not sure I understand your objective. Do you want to reduce resonance or reduce sound transmission? What kind of sound are you looking for pag dating sa labas?

I am an amateur in these matters, unlike MikeP who is a pro's pro. But allow me to share the little that I have learned:
1) Your room dimensions, especially if you have parallel surfaces (wall-wall, ceiling-floor), will tend to boost certain frequencies.
2) The materials that "soundproof" your room have different resonating frequencies. Generally speaking, the more mass the lower the resonating frequency.

Do you want to reduce the sound leaking out of the room, or do you want to keep the room from shaking/vibrating with the sound, or both?


Thanks for the response, I would like to keep the room from shaking/vibrating with the sound. By the way my ceiling is made of thin plywood sheet. I am interested with affordable materials that can attenuate the resonating frequencies in my room, those commonly used in entry level studios.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on June 02, 2008, 03:22:01 AM
Thanks for the response, I would like to keep the room from shaking/vibrating with the sound. By the way my ceiling is made of thin plywood sheet. I am interested with affordable materials that can attenuate the resonating frequencies in my room, those commonly used in entry level studios.
A popular (probably because it is cost-effective, widely available, relatively light and has better soundproofing characteristics than plywood) material is drywall (aka gypsum board, plasterboard, SheetRock, et al), which sells for around P300 per 4'x8' panel/sheet. Some people use several layers of drywall, often using different thicknesses per layer so as not to compound resonance frequencies.

Most people, I suppose, screw one board over another. But in your case, it would help to spot your wall/ceiling's studs, without peeling off the old/existing surfaces. In other words, it's better to screw the drywall onto a stud than onto a thin plywood that has no underlayer. Alternatively, you can glue one drywall on an existing flat surface, although I do not know what locally available adhesives the pros recommend. I intend to use Green Glue, which I have to import in balikbayan boxes. :( But I guess glue is still cheaper than spending for MLV (mass-loaded vinyl) or going with pricey and heavy fiber-cement boards like Hardiflex.

Hope this helps somewhat. And good luck with the build!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: pizarro84 on June 02, 2008, 11:43:35 AM
^^ Thanks very much botbenz!!  anyway is this available locally? where can I purchase one?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on June 02, 2008, 11:59:59 AM
^^ Thanks very much botbenz!!  anyway is this available locally? where can I purchase one?
You can buy gypsum board from most hardware supply stores. I've seen plenty of stock and variety in Wilcon and also Home Depot. I also recommend that you use acoustic caulk to fill gaps (corners, holes, et al). Perhaps other forum members can recommend a locally available acoustic caulk (I buy mine abroad at about $10 per tube.)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: pizarro84 on June 02, 2008, 12:05:16 PM
Thanks so much, great help bro! GOD bless!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on June 07, 2008, 09:29:05 AM
Thanks so much, great help bro! GOD bless!

meron po (sobrang dami) gypsum sa Sm Fairview, sa Ace Hardware po, pasok ka pa sa pinakaloob, (Malaki Ace Hardware dun eh) meron doon, Ace Builders... nung isang gabi, kabibili ko lang dun ng acoustic board...

By The Way, hindi ko pa kinakabit ung acoustic board kasi hindi ako sure kung anong klaseng adhesive ang gagamitin ko.

ano nga ba? :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: pizarro84 on June 08, 2008, 02:07:39 PM
meron po (sobrang dami) gypsum sa Sm Fairview, sa Ace Hardware po, pasok ka pa sa pinakaloob, (Malaki Ace Hardware dun eh) meron doon, Ace Builders... nung isang gabi, kabibili ko lang dun ng acoustic board...

By The Way, hindi ko pa kinakabit ung acoustic board kasi hindi ako sure kung anong klaseng adhesive ang gagamitin ko.

ano nga ba? :-D

Hehe layo naman nun ser, dito pa ako san pedro laguna eh  :-D pero salamat sa tip, pag wala talaga ako mahanap, walang malayo at mainit sa musikerong mapilit  :lol:
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: christer on July 12, 2008, 08:13:54 PM
One question dear sirs. Would one layer of gypsum board, mounted over a CHB wall, and gyprex boards (also a gypsum board variant) for the ceilings, be enough to stop sound from seeping out of a room?

I am not at all concerned about acoustically treating the room, i am just concerned about the rocks hitting the roof of our house everytime we practice. :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: bandztudio on July 14, 2008, 09:36:31 AM
One layer of Gypsum (12 mm) over CHB wall will certainly help. Better if this will be separately framed rather than attached directly so that a gap can be placed in between. Dont forget to dampen the in-between frames with rockwool or fiberglass otherwise, the boards migh be resonant for some mid-bass frequencies. Project mo na lang mag-patong 1 more layer later on pag may budget na. That would complete your soundproofing later, at least patong na lang yun over the same frame...dont forget to caulk joints....

Francis
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on July 14, 2008, 11:38:07 PM
magkano po ang fiber glass? gusto ko pa kasi paligiran yung drumset namin with fiber glass eh.  :-D I think makakatulong sa balance ng sound ng band kung mas mahina ang drumset... plus...ayaw ko talaga na tinotodo ng mga bands yung amps eh...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: christer on July 15, 2008, 12:45:29 AM
One layer of Gypsum (12 mm) over CHB wall will certainly help. Better if this will be separately framed rather than attached directly so that a gap can be placed in between. Dont forget to dampen the in-between frames with rockwool or fiberglass otherwise, the boards migh be resonant for some mid-bass frequencies. Project mo na lang mag-patong 1 more layer later on pag may budget na. That would complete your soundproofing later, at least patong na lang yun over the same frame...dont forget to caulk joints....

Francis

Thanks bro!

Questions again friends:
I am planning to use 2 inch thick wooden frames instead of metal studs (as suggested in this forum). Would it be okay if i mount the gypsum boards on the said wooden frames?

Also, i am still considering if i do need the dampening material (fiber glass) since my only concern is to eliminate, or limit the sound coming out of my room. Would the said setup (CHB wall + 2 inch gap (wooden mounting frames)+ 1/2'' gypsum board) be enough to do the job? Again, i would like to reiterate that i am not really concerned if the walls would resonate, just as long as the sound coming out of my room would be eliminated or limited. We practice in a full band setup in my room.

Another thing. How much would it help if i replace my glass sliding windows with fiber glass?

Thanks!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on July 15, 2008, 01:07:46 AM
Would it be okay if i mount the gypsum boards on the said wooden frames?
Sure! But better if the wooden frame is isolated from the CHB wall; that is, freestanding with air gap in between, instead of nailed to the CHB wall.

Also, i am still considering if i do need the dampening material (fiber glass) since my only concern is to eliminate, or limit the sound coming out of my room. Would the said setup (CHB wall + 2 inch gap (wooden mounting frames)+ 1/2'' gypsum board) be enough to do the job?
Fiber glass makes for good THERMAL insulation, but not particularly good for sound proofing. You are better off with rock wool, if you can afford it (approx p1,000 for 50 square feet of 2"-thick 60kg/m3 rock wool).

Another thing. How much would it help if i replace my glass sliding windows with fiber glass?
Fiber glass is "glass" that comes as strands of fiber. Think of it as glass textile; it does not usually come in rigid panes that can be used as a door or window. For your needs, tempered glass or laminated glass would be better, but also more expensive.

Just think of the extra expense as life insurance. Without proper soundproofing, your neighbors could put your life at risk. ;)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: christer on July 15, 2008, 01:22:59 AM

Fiber glass makes for good THERMAL insulation, but not particularly good for sound proofing. You are better off with rock wool, if you can afford it (approx p1,000 for a 25 foot roll of 2"x2' 60kg/m3 rock wool).
Fiber glass is "glass" that comes as strands of fiber. Think of it as glass textile; it does not usually come in rigid panes that can be used as a door or window. For your needs, tempered glass or laminated glass would be better, but also more expensive.



Thanks for the quick reply bro. Ill do some canvassing work on the tempered glass and rock wool.

Sure! But better if the wooden frame is isolated from the CHB wall; that is, freestanding with air gap in between, instead of nailed to the CHB wall.

What difference would a freestanding wall make, as opposed to one being nailed on to the CHB wall?

Just think of the extra expense as life insurance. Without proper soundproofing, your neighbors could put your life at risk. ;)

Haha great point! violent neighbors!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: bandztudio on July 15, 2008, 06:39:17 PM
Rockwool is good material but more expensive and comes in smaller odd sized blankets. fiberglass must be properly hung on G.I. Grids, at least 2" thick (3" is ideal) and 2 lbs per sq.-foot to work.
On dampening, Yes, unfortunately, you need to dampen the in between frames. As for wood, make sure its not the gemilina or the malaysian variety na mabigat, you will have a hard time driving the black gypsum screws, pwedeng maputol.

Francis
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: j3yps on July 17, 2008, 03:52:45 PM
Mga sir hanggang saan kaya mararating nang 20k ko if magsoundproof ako nang room?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on July 17, 2008, 03:56:33 PM
What difference would a freestanding wall make, as opposed to one being nailed on to the CHB wall?
The goal is acoustic isolation; the less points of contact between the two surfaces, the better. Nailing the wooden frame to the CHB wall increases the points of contact. A secure, freestanding wall shares only one point of contact with the CHB wall--the floor.

Of course, there are trade-offs. A freestanding wooden frame will yield higher TL (transmission loss), but at the expense of a smaller floor space.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: alien_inside on July 17, 2008, 04:28:02 PM
Mga sir hanggang saan kaya mararating nang 20k ko if magsoundproof ako nang room?

calculate: the cheapest GWB is P275. how abt your frames? 2x4x16? how wide is your room... i spent 35T with my 9x8x16..the booth is 9x6..
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on July 17, 2008, 10:48:42 PM
calculate: the cheapest GWB is P275. how abt your frames? 2x4x16? how wide is your room... i spent 35T with my 9x8x16..the booth is 9x6..
GWB panels typically come in 8'x4' sheets. a 2"x4"x16' wood plank costs p928. you'll need about 1.75 times that wood plank to frame each GWB panel.

an 8 foot high 10'x12' room has a wall surface area of 352 sq ft, which will cost about p3,025 in GWB and roughly p20T in framing--which excludes the ceiling, caulk, paint, and labor.

hope that gives you a rough idea of costs.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: gesam10 on August 02, 2008, 03:28:01 PM
mag tol egg trey kasi un  ginamit ko sa pagssound proof ng studio ko..mlaki din un binawas na ingay.. ask ko lng  kung nu ba mgandang ilagay pang sound proof na tlagang walang ingay na lumabas.. un mura lang.. tnx
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on August 02, 2008, 06:59:58 PM
there are plenty of articles on the internet dispelling egg trays as an effective soundproofing material. hindi ko na gagatungan pa.  :wink:

at the risk of hastily generalizating, allow me to reduce soundproofing to three basic principles:
1) mass - the more mass the better; generally, anyway, because there are exceptions;
2) air tightness - where air goes, sound goes;
3) physical isolation - which explains why many designs call for floating rooms, room-within-rooms, etc.

if you want to go cheap, look for the most effective alternatives in these areas. good luck!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on August 04, 2008, 09:08:19 AM
mag tol egg trey kasi un  ginamit ko sa pagssound proof ng studio ko..mlaki din un binawas na ingay.. ask ko lng  kung nu ba mgandang ilagay pang sound proof na tlagang walang ingay na lumabas.. un mura lang.. tnx

yan ang masakit bro... kung gusto mo magSOUNDPROOF, kelangan mo talaga gumastos.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: acoustic_newbie on August 27, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
mga bro, alam nyo ba kung saan nakakabili locally ng high density hardboard, similar sa masonite? Gagamitin ko sana for my diy diffuser for the dividers. Ok sana MDF kaso ang kapal. Yung mga 1/8" or 1/4" lang sana in thickness. Plywood naman has is low density so hindi pwede. Pangit naman ang hardiflex kasi nagpopowderized. The requirement is that is has to be high density, thin and easy to work with. TIA.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: dolfmen on August 28, 2008, 03:24:50 AM
ser leachim  san nyo ginamit tong ? CSR ROCKWOOL parang nilatag mo lang ba sa floor? ano ba yng ginagamitan nyan?? isa pa gumagana ba yng egg cartons sa mga dingding?? or ano pa ba na puede ilagay sa studio na madalas makita lang na nakatambak sa bahay?? ex. carpet
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on August 28, 2008, 09:16:28 AM
the egg tray question has been asked--and answered--so many times, the chicken refuses to lay any more eggs.  :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: dolfmen on August 28, 2008, 10:30:57 AM
so whats the answer? kaya nga nag tatanong eh,  :? sana sinagot mo na lng yng tanong ko   :lol:
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on August 29, 2008, 12:00:11 AM
pasensya na dolfmen. wala akong naisagot sa egg tray mo. tinali ni misis kanina etlog ko eh. ;)

anyway, egg trays make for lousy soundproofing materials.

bottomline sa soundproofing: mass (yung mabigat at malaman). of course, that has challenges too. mahirap magsabit ng mabigat. lawit etlog mo. ;)

back read mo yung thread na ito. maraming maayos na suggestions, lalo na yung kay mikep.

mass, isolation, and air tightness, in general. good luck.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: alien_inside on August 29, 2008, 12:13:14 AM
so whats the answer? kaya nga nag tatanong eh,  :? sana sinagot mo na lng yng tanong ko   :lol:

eggtray, fruittray( apples/oranges = looks better ) wont help on soundproofing... diffuser baka pwede pa... but stack at least 10 trays then paste it behind you. you might need at least more than 200 trays...times PHP4.00 each...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: dolfmen on August 29, 2008, 01:00:22 AM
crazy talk yng 10 trays tapos lagay sa wall, :-o liit din kasi ng space nasa attic kame. sakto lang yng sound di na din pala masyado nagagalit yng mga kapitbahay namin
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on August 29, 2008, 10:43:38 AM
For the floor, try puzzle mats and/or 1- 2 layers of 3/8" rebonded foam (like the ones you see under carpets for cars) then carpet. 


question, alin mas mura sa 2?:)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on August 30, 2008, 01:10:17 AM
question, alin mas mura sa 2?:)

sa puzzle mat chka carpet?

puzzle mat mas mura.

pinakamurang carpet na alam ko sa binondo. 180 per meter. plain lang na carpet. ung carpet na nasa sahig ng mga koche. ganon.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on August 30, 2008, 09:14:26 AM
yun ba yung rebonded foam sir?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on August 30, 2008, 08:13:20 PM
yun ba yung rebonded foam sir?

anu yung rebonded foam? baka alam ko lang ichura nung tinutukoy mo pero hindi ko alam pangalan...

basta usually, gray in color ung carpet na yon. light or dark gray. yun ung carpet na usually ginagamit sa sahig ng mga sasakyan. un din ung mga carpet na ginagamit sa mga cheap na speaker cabinets.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: alien_inside on August 31, 2008, 04:00:53 AM
crazy talk yng 10 trays tapos lagay sa wall, :-o liit din kasi ng space nasa attic kame. sakto lang yng sound di na din pala masyado nagagalit yng mga kapitbahay namin

sa proofing, no use mga yun... diffuse lang siguro. pero huwag mo na i-try. mahirap gawin yun.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: inswinger7 on September 04, 2008, 01:56:45 AM
suggested readings for acoustic principles (so you can get a grip of how sound is produced or travels, entonces, nature of sound):

1) Huber, David Miles, and Robert E. Runstein. Modern Recording Techniques, 5th Edition. Oxford: Focal Press, 2005.

2) Rumsey, Francis, and Tim McCormick. Sound and Recording, An Introduction 4th Edition. Oxford: Focal Press, 2002.

3) Eargle, John M. Handbook of Modern Recording Engineering, 4th Edition. Norwell, MA: Kluwer Academic Publishers, 2003.

Acoustic topics are normally in the early chapters. You don't have to master all the mathematical formulas, just get a good idea how it works.
 :mrgreen:

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: palaka on September 16, 2008, 10:14:31 AM
mga sir tanung lang po planu ko po kasing magtayo ng tracking room na nakadikit lang sa bahay namin. ang plano ko po sanang gawin isang pinto walang bintana nakasimento lahat pati bubong. wala pa po kasi akong nakitang ganun ang pagkakagawa ng tracking room nila ok lang kaya yun mga sir?
yung control room po pala nasa loob ng bahay namin tapus yung tracking room nakadikit sa bahay tapus may salamin lang para makita ang nagrerecord.

studio floor plan wala pa pong sukat
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg11/BAHOHERO/studiofloorplan2.gif)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: SAITOHAJIME on September 24, 2008, 04:45:52 PM
eggtray, fruittray( apples/oranges = looks better ) wont help on soundproofing... diffuser baka pwede pa...

Does this mean pwede gamitin yun egg trays to cut down on echoes? Kaya cguro meron parin gumagamit nito and claim that it still works.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on September 25, 2008, 06:54:23 PM
Egg trays as they are made today, do not have sufficient absorption coefficients usable for acoustical purposes.  I believe some people use them for not knowing the properties of these materials and what to use for sound control and tempering.  There is a long thread regarding the use of egg trays in this site and I think, it is our duty to let people know about.  The real danger actually is not in their use as acoustical materials.  It is the flammability factor that is important here. Much the same as foam (especially those without retardant properties - even foam with fire retardant chemicals catches fire real fast), egg cartons can catch fire easily.  Dangerous.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on September 25, 2008, 07:40:03 PM
Egg trays as they are made today, do not have sufficient absorption coefficients usable for acoustical purposes.  I believe some people use them for not knowing the properties of these materials and what to use for sound control and tempering.  There is a long thread regarding the use of egg trays in this site and I think, it is our duty to let people know about.  The real danger actually is not in their use as acoustical materials.  It is the flammability factor that is important here. Much the same as foam (especially those without retardant properties - even foam with fire retardant chemicals catches fire real fast), egg cartons can catch fire easily.  Dangerous.

FWIW
i completely agree with you sir. how about curtains? flamable din po un diba? i read somewhere na sinuggest nyo po ito. sugal na lang ba talaga?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on September 25, 2008, 08:02:01 PM
Curtains are quick fixes that I normally advise.  These are used as temporary measures to acoustical problems.  Also, put into mind that they can be pulled down anytime easily if there is an emergency.  Flammable materials like foam or egg trays are normally hard glued to walls and ceiling.  Of course, the better way of doing it is to put fire retardant chemicals on curtains as well.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: in_the_tent on September 25, 2008, 09:12:59 PM
sa bagay. mahal ba yung materials na un? ano un spray? san nakukuha un? salamat po.
Title: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: child309 on September 30, 2008, 11:25:23 PM
Mga sir pwede po ba na carpet ang gamiten kesa curtain? Kase may malapet na ukay samen ng mga carpet na galing ibang bansa. Oh parehas lang effect nun sa curtain?

About egg tray--  may effect po ba na maganda kung 2 layers ang ikakabet?

Tnx!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on October 01, 2008, 09:16:38 PM
Curtains and carpets are both absorption materials although the frequencies they absorb differ.  But if you would like the reverberation time of your room to decrease, removing mostly reflections on the high frequency region, carpet or curtain would be okay.  Carpet the floors and two sides of the 4 walls and you will have a fairly decent studio with at least a .4 sec. RT60.

Egg trays?  You never put them on top of one another.  Walang effect yun.  Biro lang yung comment previously.  Never use egg trays, unless you want to be different from convention and would like to show na mayroon kang acoustical knowledge kunwari.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: skyjammer on October 01, 2008, 10:34:45 PM
Curtains and carpets are both absorption materials although the frequencies they absorb differ.  But if you would like the reverberation time of your room to decrease, removing mostly reflections on the high frequency region, carpet or curtain would be okay.  Carpet the floors and two sides of the 4 walls and you will have a fairly decent studio with at least a .4 sec. RT60.

Egg trays?  You never put them on top of one another.  Walang effect yun.  Biro lang yung comment previously.  Never use egg trays, unless you want to be different from convention and would like to show na mayroon kang acoustical knowledge kunwari.

FWIW

This thread is crazy it's keeping me away from my office work. I should be working by now but look at what I'm doing! I'm posting a reply!  :-D :-D :-D

mabuhay si sir mikep! Sir, post ka naman ng audio workshop schedules mo dito. babahain ka namain ng tanong. hehehe!
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: SAITOHAJIME on October 04, 2008, 06:05:34 PM
Quote
Just think of the extra expense as life insurance. Without proper soundproofing, your neighbors could put your life at risk.

Kailangan na kailangan ko ito. Nagrereklamo ang mga kapitbahay ko pag nagtatambol ako..Kailangan ko ng sound proofing. Eto ang naisipan kong design.

Walls: 5" CHB + 1/2" gypsum board on wood frames. Spaces to be filled with
          rockwool fiber.
Floor: Rubber mats + cheap carpets. (yun mga nabibili sa divisoria). I'm thinking of using dampers for the drum set using tennis balls. Dito ko rin yun nakita. Sa 2nd floor yung room kya sa tingin ko kailangan nito.
Ceiling: no idea
Ventilation: Split type airconditioning
windows: No windows

comments pls...ok na ba ito??. Yun sa ceiling wala pa akong idea. At yun sa mga corners, dapat daw sealed pero di ko alam kung paano.

The goal is cut down on the noise coming out of the room to avoid conflicts with the neighbors.


Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on October 13, 2008, 08:24:52 PM
saito-san,  :-D

where is your neighbor, underneath, above your room, or in a different house and lot?

also, what is your floor made of, concrete, wood, combination?

how big is your room?

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: palaka on October 14, 2008, 12:12:40 AM
mga sir plano ko po sana pagawa ng tracking room wala pa yung saktong sukat pero concrete po lahat pati yung bubong niya simento tanung ko lang po kung hindi po kaya maging sobrang echo nun pag natapos? salamat
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on October 14, 2008, 03:56:56 AM
@palaka: i saw your previous post.

so your control room is in the house, so presumably that does not have a concrete roof like your tracking room, correct?

you can control echo by: 1) avoiding parallel surfaces (walls, ceiling/floor); 2) using absorbers; and 3) diffusers.

unless you live in a posh country home, remote from all the urban jungle noise, concrete alone may not be sufficient noise insulation. you may need additional layers--walls, ceiling/floor.

i would also recommend double doors to keep noise from seeping into your tracking room. additionally, you will need to treat your room's acoustics, which typically entails curtains, carpets, bass traps, diffusers, etc.

it all depends on the acoustic fidelity you are looking for--and, of course, the inescapable budget.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on October 14, 2008, 06:39:17 PM
... pero concrete po lahat pati yung bubong niya simento ... hindi po kaya maging sobrang echo nun pag natapos?

Yes.  What you will get is an echo chamber.  Put absorbers on certain areas of the walls, ceiling and flooring to lower down the reverberation of the room.  You need to keep it down to .35 to .45 sec.  That reverb chamber will have at least a 1.5 sec RT60, depending on the size of the room.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: alien_inside on October 26, 2008, 12:10:51 PM
Yes.  What you will get is an echo chamber.  Put absorbers on certain areas of the walls, ceiling and flooring to lower down the reverberation of the room.  You need to keep it down to .35 to .45 sec.  That reverb chamber will have at least a 1.5 sec RT60, depending on the size of the room.

FWIW
IMO, in some cases, helpful din ang reverb chamber especially on vocals...lalu na if manipis ang voice ng vocalist...
on SNARES also... ( but the drummer won't opt to record the snares alone...so i use the plate rev for snares... ).
sir mike, regarding curtains, anong tela ang maganda? other than what you've mentioned earlier in this thread? other options...?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: peeves24 on November 07, 2008, 10:07:47 AM
can 2 sliding glass doors offer the same isolation as 2 solid core doors?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 07, 2008, 12:10:42 PM
@peeves24: a 6mm float (plain, common, ordinary) glass has a STC of about 26db. solid core doors may be in the high 20s or low 30s. plus a solid core door you can layer with MDF board and/or gypsum. You can do the same with glass by choosing laminated glass instead, which has a STC in the low to mid 30s, but is more expensive.

But the weakest link, I think, is the seal. It is easier to seal a swinging door than a sliding door. Naturally, sliding doors have "sliding space"; gaps that reduce friction between the moving surfaces. So those would be your natural sources of leaks.

But, of course, it also depends on what kind of noise reduction you are looking for. Some people are marginally less fastidious about noise into the control room than they are with tracking rooms.

And the trade-offs. For my personal DIY SOHO/studio, I traded a bit of noise for a lot of light, at the expense of higher cost (two laminated glass panes on separate, isolated structures).  Good luck with yours.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: peeves24 on November 07, 2008, 01:40:42 PM
thanks botbenz, hirap ang limited space e. having a double sliding door will surely make my life better (not to mention the added pogi points to the studio interior  :-D )

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/3009110793_b88e972f2e.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/3009110809_94b9f3aa6c.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3166/3009472929_c8231a5662.jpg)

background info:

- bongaloo type yung bahay
- 1 spare room and it has 3 concrete walls already. the 4th wall is wood that separates it from the master's bedroom. i will definitely knock it down and make it concrete as well.
- ceiling will also replaced with concrete (abang na para sa 2nd floor)
- separate control and tracking rooms
- isolation level na gusto ko, yung pwede ko magdrums kahit hatinggabi
- mag iinvest sa split type aircon (problema lang 2 rooms yung studio, ducting?)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/3009472933_86b9b6312b.jpg)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 07, 2008, 11:11:22 PM
nice post, peeves!

what software did you use to draft and visualize your design?

presumably, your rooms don't have parallel surfaces. it's tough to visualize when seen from a vanishing point perspective.

are you contemplating the sliding doors between the control and tracking rooms, or between your studio and the living room? if it's the former, i guess sliding doors may suffice. but you'll probably have to mute your monitors (use headphones instead) during recording, so monitor audio does not seep into your tracking room.

you sure you want separate rooms? i thought my 12'x20' studio was small. i decided not to have two separate rooms, well, because 80% of the time, i will use the room as a SOHO--a very quiet one.

you and i are roughly at the same stage of our "studio" builds, it seems. here's mine: http://web.mac.com/botbenz/Music/Blog/Blog.html (http://web.mac.com/botbenz/Music/Blog/Blog.html), which i ought to update, since my design has changed since then.

regardless, you and i can probably use a few tips from master mikep. :D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: peeves24 on November 09, 2008, 09:58:01 AM
google sketchup

yup sliding doors for the tracking and control room. solid core na lang dun sa entrance. yung control room walang parallel surfaces pero yung tracking room meron (to maximize my space). maglalagay na lang ako ng absorbers dun sa corners (orange thingies)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 09, 2008, 01:57:37 PM
yeah, sliding doors will make your room appear bigger. but, if i were you, i'd do the following:


but then, that's me, an amateur DIYer.

are you thinking of floating your floor? the low frequency thuds are the ones that will be difficult to contain, i would think.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: peeves24 on November 10, 2008, 11:27:58 AM
im making a new slab on the tracking room. i did consider making wooden decks with sand underneath but i think the inner rooms will be too heavy

eto siguro mas malinaw na illustration with measurements, enough to house a 6-piece drum kit.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/3017393501_61e8a53fb3.jpg)
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: dabomb on November 11, 2008, 08:37:44 PM
good day to all... sir mikep meron po ba ibang subtitute sa rockwool? cheaper but effective... tnx po.. :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 12, 2008, 01:32:46 AM
Glass Fiber 16 kgm batt.  Nakarolyo 'yun. It's about 1.5 X 15 meters, 2" thick, and costs about 3K.  Air conditioning supply and heat insulation companies would carry it.  Check the Yellow Pages.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: dabomb on November 12, 2008, 09:28:39 AM
sir mikep thank you for your help and advice...i have another question  how about cotton batt is it effective as fiberglass batt and rockwool .. :-D
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on November 12, 2008, 10:06:07 AM
good day to all... sir mikep meron po ba ibang subtitute sa rockwool? cheaper but effective... tnx po.. :-D

Technically, rockwool and fiberglass are one and the same, the only difference being fiberglass is a trademark of Du Pont.

Re: cotton batt, I don't think it is recommended since it is organic and will decay over time.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 12, 2008, 07:05:55 PM
Russ Burger, well known international acoustic and studio designer was telling me about cotton batts which he uses as acoustic material in his studio projects.  He had them manufactured in China.  I have not seen it and used it so I am not familiar with it.  I don't know the acoustic characteristics of the material.  But according to him, it is well received because it does not have the "reputation" of being carcinogen.  Is it available locally?  How is the fire rating characteristics?  Is this an acoustic material or it is just "cotton bales or balls?"

Thanks.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on November 13, 2008, 01:01:04 PM
MikeP, this is new to me as well. Apparently, cotton batts are treated with borates to resist fire, molds and vermin: http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/walls/non-fiberglass-batts

We learn something new everyday...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 13, 2008, 03:06:15 PM
Yep.  A friend is bringing in another type of acoustical material, mainly made from savings of aluminum used in making bearings.  This is a Japanese product and the fantastic thing about it is, it is weather resistant (Metal).  This can be used not only inside buildings but outside as well to absorb sound to "quieten" (if ever there is such a word) the neighborhood.  The only problem is, it is kinda expensive, although some savings can be made from final finishing, i. e., painting, smoothing, etc.  Things are developing and we just have to keep our eyes and ears open to developments.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 14, 2008, 03:37:08 PM
Technically, rockwool and fiberglass are one and the same, the only difference being fiberglass is a trademark of Du Pont.
Is branding the only difference?

My understanding is that they are similar (both are mineral fibers), but not the same (one is made of glass and polymers; the other made of rock/stone). I suppose one can argue that glass is made of silica, which is a form of rock. But are their acoustic properties the same?

Also, if the same mass/densities of rockwool and fiberglass were compared, which is cheaper? There's probably some metric out there for cost per STL decibel too. But come to think of it now, price is linear, but decibel is logarithmic!

The carcinogenicity concern was timely, as I am weeks from investing in mineral fiber for my SOHO/studio. As it turns out, rockwool and fiberglass have recently been found to have low carcinogenicity.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: KitC on November 14, 2008, 05:36:32 PM
When I first read about rockwool, it was apparently to circumvent Du Pont's trademark. Later references now indicate that rockwool is indeed made from basalt, and not glass. Then there is slagwool which is made from slag found in blast furnaces. And now aluminum... will wonders never cease?  :-)

Like I said, we learn something new everyday.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: SAITOHAJIME on November 15, 2008, 03:23:08 PM
saito-san,  :-D

where is your neighbor, underneath, above your room, or in a different house and lot?

also, what is your floor made of, concrete, wood, combination?

how big is your room?


Neighbors are right next door separated only by a firewall which also happens to be one of the walls of the room. Its located upstairs, directly below it is the kitchen. All 4 walls are made of concrete + the floor. Plywood ceilings. Size? never tried to measure it but its around 11' X 7' X 9'.

I am still looking for alternatives for rockwools which is kinda pricey. I came across scrap ceiling boards which i saw in the junk shop. Pwede ba yun?!?!

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 15, 2008, 04:06:46 PM
I am still looking for alternatives for rockwools which is kinda pricey. I came across scrap ceiling boards which i saw in the junk shop. Pwede ba yun?!?!

If your purpose is for insulation, ceiling boards or acoustical tiles cannot be used.  You would want a more fuzzy stuff like glass fiber or rockwool.  Glass fiber is cheaper than rock wool.  But if you intend to line your walls (inside) to augment the glass fiber for further isolation, you can use them.  Before you put the final gypsum wall, put the scrap ceiling tiles.  In that way, you also create some sort of a better acoustic impedance.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: SAITOHAJIME on November 16, 2008, 12:53:54 PM
So hindi pwede as replacement for Rockwools? Anyway, tuloy pa rin ang soundproofing project ko. Nakakita na rin ako ng rockwool supplier sa Calamba area (lapit lang sa amin) ACIPhillipines ang supplier.

BTW, i plan to use wood as a frame for the gypsum boards, magkakaroon po b ng diperensya ito?

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 16, 2008, 10:51:54 PM
BTW, i plan to use wood as a frame for the gypsum boards, magkakaroon po b ng diperensya ito?

No, but metal studs would be better in terms of acoustic performance, defense against bukbok, and fire safety.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 16, 2008, 11:48:05 PM
sir mikep: to frame the same room, which is more expensive, wood, or steel (the price of which supposedly increased just before the beijing olympics)? and how much cheaper? say, is steel framing cheaper by 20% in general? thanks.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: alien_inside on November 17, 2008, 12:09:33 AM
IF IN GENERAL, i'm sure STEEL is cheaper...i don't know the ratio...
Opinion ko lang:
about steel framing on the topic, malamang mas mura pa rin, including LABOR ( welders et al )... considering that wood framing for gypsum ( and other layers ), 2 x 4 is needed ( kung talagang susundin nya ang theory )...

Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 17, 2008, 12:14:55 AM
Have not used wood for studding except for some trimmings and acoustic textile holders.  The way I look at it the GI steel studding (metal studs) is cheaper and better to use.  Wala na kasi wood masyado.  The wood studs available are not of good quality.  I suppose no brainer?

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: alien_inside on November 17, 2008, 12:28:02 AM
I agree with that NO GOOD QUALITY.... he might end up with the tabi-tabingi na frames ( and walls )...
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: LouieAzcona on November 17, 2008, 01:18:45 AM
ung metal studs po ba, kinakabit sa existing ceiling? o naka-hang?
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 17, 2008, 09:17:22 AM
thanks, guys. if mikep says no-brainer, i guess it'll be metal for me. ;)

@louieazcona: the metal studs are typically riveted to a base track. go to home depot or wilcon. they usually have sample set-ups of metal framing, including base, studs, joists, furring channels, etc. but if you're asking about metal framing for ceilings, the joist's ends are usually attached to the side wall studs, then supported (so the joists don't sag from the ceiling weight) with steel angles and suspension clips. i learned all these by asking the sales assistants at wilcon, and by looking up the manufacturer's website (http://www.jeasteel.com.ph/ (http://www.jeasteel.com.ph/)). but, of course, i'll have a pro install them. hanggang insulation, electrical, and pintura lang ako.  :roll:
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 17, 2008, 06:28:24 PM
ung metal studs po ba, kinakabit sa existing ceiling? o naka-hang?

Depends on your design set up.  If you are building a framing inside a concrete room to hang baffling and acoustic absorbers, the studs are placed directly to the walls and ceiling.  If you are doing it for isolation purposes, they are set about 2" away from the walls, 4" (at least) in the ceiling.  These should be supported by angle bars to stiffen the structure for the additional load like layers of gypsum and cemboard or whatever.  If you are constructing a room within a room, the metal structure should be anchored using acoustic isolators, from the flooring all the way to the ceiling as well as the walls.  The metal structure should not be touching any of the existing structure for maximum isolation.  The internet has some procedures and designs on how to do this stuff.  Go to the webpage of SAE.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 17, 2008, 09:37:11 PM
ah, yes. the SAE website is a treasure trove of information, here: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/audio/pages/fullindex.htm (http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/audio/pages/fullindex.htm)

sir mikep: i built a "floating floor", a 3" cement slab floor (with deformed bars) atop a 4" sand bed, atop compacted earth. this floor does not touch the concrete walls of my room. since the floor is somewhat isolated (sand being a moderate dampener), do you still recommend that i isolate the base/tracks of the wall frame from this quasi-floating floor? i thought of mass-loaded vinyl sheets or neoprene pads, but questioned their necessity, given that the floor is already somewhat floating. your expert advise would be much appreciated by me, but also by fellow newbies. thanks.
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: mikep on November 17, 2008, 11:12:26 PM
A 4" cement slab would have been better.  Also, I have problems with sand as when it settles down, sometimes it does not level properly that your slab flooring can be misaligned.  Also, if the sand is not well dried up, you can have all sorts of "insects" and "maggots" growing in it.  I have a client whose home theater was floated using that technique and "bukbok" thrived in the sand.  They had to renovate the entire home theater, installed new flooring, fixed the walls, etc. but there is a stench smell, that until now, they cannot seem to eradicate.  The better way of floating a floor is to use neoprene pads placed properly, computed in such a way that it would have a real low resonance factor.  There is a formula for that and it is available in any acoustic or noise and vibration book.

Now, would you need the pads to float your flooring using neoprene and all?  If you are able to achieve your desired result, let it be.  You've already spent lots of money.  You just have to watch out on things that might grow underneath your flooring.

FWIW
Title: Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
Post by: botbenz on November 18, 2008, 12:02:34 AM
A 4" cement slab would have been better.  Also, I have problems with sand as when it settles down, sometimes it does not level properly that your slab flooring can be misaligned. 
I surmised as much, which is why I had the mason form stilts, using deformed bars. So my floor looks like a spider, with the stilts tip-toed against the old concrete floor beneath the compacted earth.

So my floor look will look like:
[Engineered wood]
[Underlay]
[Concrete slab floor, with deformed bar and "stilts"]
[Sand bed]
[Compacted earth/soil]
[Old concrete floor, which is probably 12"-15" beneath the room floor]

Since I haven't built the room within the room yet, maybe I should consult a pest expert to treat the floor (or at least the perimeter) and then air it out for a