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The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: randymarsh on October 01, 2017, 05:47:18 PM

Title: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: randymarsh on October 01, 2017, 05:47:18 PM
So you're excited to see your favorite band. You get to the venue early and get the front row. The lights turn dim then the band starts to play. Tapos ganito lang maririnig mo


WALANG GITARA!  :razz:

This video was from last night. Vocalist at yung drums lang rinig, at halos hindi marinig yung gitara.

No visible amplifiers on stage (a sign that should have took notice), at AxeFX8 lang ang gamit ng mga gitarista (pati bass player). All of them naka in-ear monitors.  After three songs I decided to move further back to get a beer, dun ko lang narinig yung gitara.

Eto ang tunog pag medyo malayo sa stage, mas maayos


Twice na ako maka experience ng ganito. Yung huli ay Animals as Leaders. Last night was Haken. Different venues pero parehong tunog kapag nasa harapan ng stage. The performances were great, wag ka nga lang sa harap dahil parang drum clinic yung concert.

I guess it allows the band to go to different venues na walang masyadong dalang gamit. Pero I'd prefer the sound of a real amp coming from the stage.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Drac on October 01, 2017, 08:50:40 PM
What if kung mag lagay sila smaller speakers na nakaharap sa audience?
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: titser_marco on October 01, 2017, 10:20:23 PM
Totally getting where you're coming from, but isn't the venue equally accountable for this sort of issue? A performance venue's obligation is to make sure the performers' are heard wherever someone may be seated.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: randymarsh on October 02, 2017, 07:23:19 AM
^ In a band setting, I do not think the venue or the organizer is responsible what the band's stage sound. The band can demand any equipment they need and the organizer should able to provide. In this case, no amp ang setup.

Papaano din kung open air yung venue? Do they have to place speakers at every corner? (the speaker wedges in these venues are really loud) What prevents a band to lip sync instead kung lahat ng instruments pa PA nalang?

Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: titser_marco on October 07, 2017, 10:09:39 AM
1) Re stage sound, fair point. That said the same argument can be made for this band, i.e. they felt all they needed for their stage sound was wedges. If that were the case, the venue and/or audio outfitter and/or organizer needed to have taken that variable in.

2) Not an expert, but for open air venues they have these huge line arrays (remember those huge speakers hanging from festival stages?) that have great dispersion, thereby removing the need for having to place speakers everywhere.

3) What will prevent a band from lip syncing? Nothing. They can have great stage sound sure, but if one wants to lip sync, one will find a way to do it.

^ In a band setting, I do not think the venue or the organizer is responsible what the band's stage sound. The band can demand any equipment they need and the organizer should able to provide. In this case, no amp ang setup.

Papaano din kung open air yung venue? Do they have to place speakers at every corner? (the speaker wedges in these venues are really loud) What prevents a band to lip sync instead kung lahat ng instruments pa PA nalang?


Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: royc on October 07, 2017, 11:08:50 AM
Venue's fault. They should have speakers in front if they don't have amps. Band won't know they are not heard in front unless someone tells them.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: satch on October 07, 2017, 11:22:48 AM
Reason for this post? Are u at some point considering gumamit ng axe fx/helix? Or observation mo lng sa mga bands gumagmit ng axe fx/helix?

Certainly someone is at fault dito, malayo malapit dapat meron marinig ang audience. Amps at these events are usually miked (mic'd,whatevr) and output sa PA dba? So not really axefx/helix fault?

Whatever the reason maybe, badtrip nga lng at gnun nangyare.




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Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: randymarsh on October 08, 2017, 08:45:25 AM
personally, it feels weird as an audience. kaya ako lumapit sa stage is to "feel" the music. can't headband or form a moshpit kung parang ganito ang pinakikinggan ko


seriously ganyan ang tunog infront. tunog ng electric guitar na hindi nakasaksak sa amp.

and just for clarification, I do own an axe fx

i dont mind digital modellers pero sana nakasaksak at least sa decent na amp onstage
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: satch on October 08, 2017, 12:27:06 PM
From what i understand you can do out1 to PA and out2 to amp for that front fill by doing fx loop block sa preset?

Anyway, hindi natin alam kung ano nasaisip ng mga rockstar with their setup. They're professional touring musicians.


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Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Drac on October 09, 2017, 12:03:07 AM
What about other artists na kahit may mga Amp sila pero ang stage nila walang output up front only monitors like si J.Petrucci nasa back stage yung mga Mesa stack niya. 

I think they will have the same problem na wala marinig up front unless nag maglagay din ng house speaker before the first row.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: randymarsh on October 09, 2017, 07:42:44 PM
pag big profile band palaging may bouncer at railings before the stage. I've seen Dream Theater live a few times already, usually nasa right side ng stage si John at naririning mo parin yung wedges na katabi ng pedal board on stage. The PA is also situated within the railing. John Myung however is connected to FOH, no amps kaya sa tingin ko langing lunod yung bass niya sa PA. Kahit yung mga live videos and DVDs nila hindi ganun ka bigat ang bass nila (except for Metropolis 2000 Live in NY). Compare it to, Billy Sheenan's bass sound onstage, rinig talaga.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Drac on October 10, 2017, 03:47:42 AM
pag big profile band palaging may bouncer at railings before the stage. I've seen Dream Theater live a few times already, usually nasa right side ng stage si John at naririning mo parin yung wedges na katabi ng pedal board on stage. The PA is also situated within the railing. John Myung however is connected to FOH, no amps kaya sa tingin ko langing lunod yung bass niya sa PA. Kahit yung mga live videos and DVDs nila hindi ganun ka bigat ang bass nila (except for Metropolis 2000 Live in NY). Compare it to, Billy Sheenan's bass sound onstage, rinig talaga.

Some people who attended the DT manila concert said that the first row sound of the whole band is kinda muddy, other VIP audience have said they can't here JP at all not even his monitor amps.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on October 11, 2017, 06:22:16 AM
That is why when I do live with a Fractal, I need a 4x12 and a power amp on stage. It just feels and sounds right. Tapos out 2 na yung FOH na may cab sim. Buong buo tunog.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Stoop on October 11, 2017, 02:36:42 PM
In one interview of Periphery (one of the fervent users of AxeFx since its infancy) they mentioned this same problem, that with the PA they sound great but they noticed that everyone upfront are not really digging it, turns out, di kasi nila madinig properly yun gitara because everything was fed FOH.

So their solution? Well, pretty much as Bolt Thrower mentioned they started using Matrix Power Amps + Real Guitar Speakers.
Not to defend the digital stuff so much but from what I can remember AxeFx when initially released was meant for Studio recording and bands just decided they want to put it on the road.

I think that its the band's fault, specially if they're using this sort of rig for a couple of times already on the road, to not notice the difference of not having those guitar speakers for the front lining audience.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: jake zulueta on October 11, 2017, 05:21:00 PM
So this explains the reason why most of the people in front are just looking.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: satch on October 11, 2017, 05:56:12 PM
What about other artists na kahit may mga Amp sila pero ang stage nila walang output up front only monitors like si J.Petrucci nasa back stage yung mga Mesa stack niya. 

I think they will have the same problem na wala marinig up front unless nag maglagay din ng house speaker before the first row.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171011/8291815fd5e53376c7a8e5c150cdf67e.jpg)

Eto pwesto ko nun gabi na yun. ok naman output ni jp sa spot na yan kahit wala speakers naka tutok sa audience.

It may have something to do with the venue's sound system placement, etc pang teknikal.

Meh, what do i know diba? Saka ko na pproblemahin yan pag tutugtog nko ng ganyang kalaki. Lol



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Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on October 12, 2017, 12:49:22 AM
In one interview of Periphery (one of the fervent users of AxeFx since its infancy) they mentioned this same problem, that with the PA they sound great but they noticed that everyone upfront are not really digging it, turns out, di kasi nila madinig properly yun gitara because everything was fed FOH.

So their solution? Well, pretty much as Bolt Thrower mentioned they started using Matrix Power Amps + Real Guitar Speakers.
Not to defend the digital stuff so much but from what I can remember AxeFx when initially released was meant for Studio recording and bands just decided they want to put it on the road.

I think that its the band's fault, specially if they're using this sort of rig for a couple of times already on the road, to not notice the difference of not having those guitar speakers for the front lining audience.

Now Misha is using a Peavey Invective with his Axe FX. Ang lakas sa stage.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Drac on October 18, 2017, 08:09:42 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171011/8291815fd5e53376c7a8e5c150cdf67e.jpg)

Eto pwesto ko nun gabi na yun. ok naman output ni jp sa spot na yan kahit wala speakers naka tutok sa audience.

It may have something to do with the venue's sound system placement, etc pang teknikal.

Meh, what do i know diba? Saka ko na pproblemahin yan pag tutugtog nko ng ganyang kalaki. Lol



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Nice, May mga nag sabi na ang lakas nga daw sa First row meron din iba sabi malakas pero parang muddy, yung iba sabi ang linaw daw. Ako kasi nasa Orchestra ako okay naman.

Anyway I will take your word for it, question lang monitor speakers ba yung nasa edge ng stage or part din ng PA yun?
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: vaisteen2003 on October 18, 2017, 08:26:30 PM
Some people who attended the DT manila concert said that the first row sound of the whole band is kinda muddy, other VIP audience have said they can't here JP at all not even his monitor amps.

same with MR Big. I was on the 4th row thinking id get the best sound visual but man it was ear piercing and i couldnt hear the vocals properly. The advent of IEM really made big gigs more portable, on the flip side the FOH seemed to have stayed still.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: satch on October 18, 2017, 09:05:02 PM
Nice, May mga nag sabi na ang lakas nga daw sa First row meron din iba sabi malakas pero parang muddy, yung iba sabi ang linaw daw. Ako kasi nasa Orchestra ako okay naman.

Anyway I will take your word for it, question lang monitor speakers ba yung nasa edge ng stage or part din ng PA yun?

No idea. Looks like part ng PA system nila. They do run a high tech sound system pag live.

My word aint worth anything. I just enjoyed the show and di ko na inabala sarili ko sa pagkilatis bits of pieces ng mg gamit nila or kung ano pa man nega comment regarding sound. Hahaha! Hope you enjoyed it as well. :)


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Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: shoegaze geezer on October 19, 2017, 12:05:28 AM
i have to agree. for live settings, real amps.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: nicoyow on October 19, 2017, 02:23:41 AM

this video was a rig run down of Coheed and Cambria. There's this statement from Travis that they've been recording their songs using amps before they get big. Doing gigs also with amps. Through the long run, they have the chance to try out fractals and other modelling stuff and its been really hard for them to go back from digital to amps. (non verbatim)

p.s: skip the video 15:50. pardon the lady doing the interview.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: Drac on October 19, 2017, 07:12:21 PM
No idea. Looks like part ng PA system nila. They do run a high tech sound system pag live.

My word aint worth anything. I just enjoyed the show and di ko na inabala sarili ko sa pagkilatis bits of pieces ng mg gamit nila or kung ano pa man nega comment regarding sound. Hahaha! Hope you enjoyed it as well. :)

I enjoyed definitely as I am sort of a DT fan boy.

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same with MR Big. I was on the 4th row thinking id get the best sound visual but man it was ear piercing and i couldnt hear the vocals properly. The advent of IEM really made big gigs more portable, on the flip side the FOH seemed to have stayed still.


Nasa Orchestra ako ng Dream Theater concert sa Kia Theater medyo ear piercing pa din at medyo palaka boses ni James Labrie parang mas okay pa tone ng boses niya sa mga cellphone video na naka upload ngayon sa tubes.

What is FOH and IEM btw? Sorry Noobie here lol.
Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: satch on October 19, 2017, 07:19:05 PM


Nasa Orchestra ako ng Dream Theater concert sa Kia Theater medyo ear piercing pa din at medyo palaka boses ni James Labrie parang mas okay pa tone ng boses niya sa mga cellphone video na naka upload ngayon sa tubes.

What is FOH and IEM btw? Sorry Noobie here lol.

Ganun na ata boses nia sa live ngaun :D

Front of House
In Ear Monitor


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Title: Re: Playing Live? Get a Real Amp! (AxeFX / Helix Rant)
Post by: vaisteen2003 on October 21, 2017, 12:44:34 AM
Ganun na ata boses nia sa live ngaun :D

Front of House
In Ear Monitor


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not sure what year DT started using IEMs but i remember Dream Theater Bangkok 2008 I was literally on the railings and about 10ft from the edge of the stage and the sound was blasting through me. I noticed that the first 2 songs were a bit muddy prolly still EQing the room since abience change as the venue starts filling in and on the 3rd till the last song it was pure bliss. I also noticed that more than the FOH speakers on the cieling, there were what seemed like big speakers at the bottom of the stage where we can hear everything.