Must a beginner start with simple grooves? Or can he start with complex grooves?

[jakobspiral]

Pansin ko most everything in this forum is about "the greatest drummers." So, after doing rudiments and independence exercises almost daily for a month now, I'm trying to learn some of those "greatest drummers" , the verse groove of "7 days" (Vinnie Colaiuta) and "50 ways to leave your lover" (Steve Gadd). I think I'm about to get it, just a few more days, or weeks, or months... But, when I finally played drums with a band for the first time, I wasn't able to do anything more than a basic rock groove. Only the steady hi-hat, with alternating bass & snare fills.

So is it advisable for beginners to start with "the greatest" drummers? Or should a beginner start with simple songs? Learn to walk before you run?

Should I stop doing Steve Gadd for now and do Nirvana songs instead? I know I can't play Gadd's grooves at this point, but I really enjoy trying to play them. I just want to know if it's not advisable.

[metalmuhlisha]

i don't know how beginners should do it so i can just outline what worked for me.

i started lessons june of last year and after about 4 months i had my first jam. i was awful. i could only keep beats and when i started filling i tended to overfill and the concept of time went to the crapper.

my timing only got better as time went on and i had more opportunities to jam with other people. i've already forgotten how everthing i've worked for finally came full circle with regards to my skill and playing ability. i continued learning and practicing linear drumming, fills, rolls, upbeats and downbeats, rudiments, experimenting, and what have you.

all of these was supplemented by the fact that i listen to music alot during the course of the day. lagi pagpapasok ako nakakabit na yung earphones sa tenga ko. pag breaks, etc. i don't consciously try to emulate my favorite drummers but i listen to them so i can get something out of their playing. be it their feel, groove, or some fill. parang... sarili lang siya papasok sayo. pero hindi ko sila kokopyahin talaga. i hope that wasn't too vague.

my advice would be, yes it's ok to emulate your favorite drummers and there's no such thing as the concept of "who you should listen to". listen to anything you want. i didn't improve by listening to dave weckl nor by listening to sean kinney. i improved by practicing, learning, and also using my inspirations as sources of ideas, and not by outright copying them.

i also didn't start out by learning songs. i believe that a beginner should hone his drumming tools and drumming vocabulary first before covering someone's else's work. it's easier that way, for one thing.

pero yun, do what works for you. i only summarized what worked for me, and it may not be applicable to anyone at all. just keep working for it, and it'll come with time and practice. masarap din yung sasabihan ka ng tao na ok ka tumugtog (hindi rin ako nahihiyang sabihin na isa to sa motivation ko dati para gumaling kasi pangit yung ipokrito ka sa sarili mo na pa-humble effect pa. hehe. pero syempre, number one motivation ko talaga mahal ko ang pagtatambol. just keep working at it. you'll get better if you want yourself to. frustrations are normal, you should just find ways to overcome your hurdles. good luck man!)

PS. just so i don't look like someone who talks out of his ass, here's a video of me and my band practicing an easy song. i'm posting it to show that if someone like me, who had absolutely NO talent, could improve, anyone who works hard enough can improve. (hindi ko sinabing magaling ako ha. hehe. bulok lang yan. ilang beses pa ko nagkamali haha.)

[inigo]

Nothing wrong with studying Colauita and Gadd this early. Continue studying them, while doing simple stuff with your band. Eventually naman malamang maiincorporate mo sa mga jam ang mga ginagawa nila Colauita and Gadd eh, since they're really very practical drummers.

Parang school lang yan. Consider Colauita and Gadd as academic subjects, and your band as practicum.

[peeves24]

Pansin ko most everything in this forum is about "the greatest drummers." So, after doing rudiments and independence exercises almost daily for a month now, I'm trying to learn the verse groove of "7 days" and "50 ways to leave your lover." I think I'm about to get it, just a few more days (or weeks).

Today, I finally played drums with a band for the first time. Simpleng jamming lang.

My Problem: I wasn't able to invent anything more than a basic rock groove. Only a steady hi-hat, with alternating bass & snare fills. May occasional crash.

Should I continue with Vinnie Colaiuta and Steve Gadd? Or should I begin with someone easier like Taylor Hawkins and Travis Barker?

siguro frustration lang yan sa part mo dahil sabi mo you've been "doing rudiments and independence exercises almost daily for a month now" which i personally feel is not enough. allow more time and dont pressure yourself by following a very restricting routine (na meron pang time limit)

some skills take years to acquire (took me 10 years to realize the importance of rudiments  ) so relax, practice and dont worry, it will come in due time

[phfreq]

As much as I want to spend more time to drumming, I am not able to. So madalas, pabugsu bugsu lang ang practice. Minsan 2 minutes.. minsan 5 minutes... maswerte kapag umabot ng 30mins. Dami kasi kailangang gawin.. Tapos kapag narinig ng mga kids na nagpapractice sa set, paaalisin na ako at sila naman daw.. he hehe.. syempre, ibibigay...

So madalas, sa practice pads and practice set lang...

Actually, gumawa pa ako ng curriculum ko na 30 minutes per day pero hindi ko napapractice. I basically tailored it para matugtog ko ung mga gusto kong music (ranging from funk, rock, jazz, dance/techno/hiphop/rnb music among others). Pero ayon, ang hirap i-execute dahil nga sa situation and circumstances. Yung ginawa ko, ang warm up is rudiments tapos basic grooves tapos practice ng kanta tapos cooldown ng basic rudiments or basic linear patterns.

May mga nakaka-jam dito pero puro covers ang ginagawa nila.. So ayon, madalas wala akong kwenta kasi hindi ko memoryado ung mga kanta na yon. Hindi ko rin alam ung mga bilang so madalas basic grooves lang din na may occasional fills.

I am mostly not into covers but I would like to play what I feel pero ung mga ka-jam ko, gusto covers and more or less kagaya nugn original ang tunog.. kaya kailangan ko magmemorize ng mga songs..

I just want to be able to play with feelings and steady on time and of course have fun.

So siguro, depende sa objectives mo. May mga taong mas naeenganyo kapag ginagawa ung ginagawa ng mga "greatest drummers". Meron namang iba na ang gusto lang talaga eh ma-express ung sarili nya.

For me, the greatest drummers are inspiration. I believe with the circumstances Im in right now, there is no way I will every be similar sa kanila.

Sabi nga nung isang teacher, make sure you have constant short doses of satisfaction in what you are doing otherwise you'll just be frustrated and quit learning all together.

medyo mahaba na

[rays]

wag ka mafrustrate bro. it'll come naturally as time goes by. gawin mo since wala kang oras magpraktis pumunta ka ng mas 1 hour ahead ng sched ng jam nyo. para makapagpraktis ka kahit 30mins bago kayo magjam.

pero ok din mafrustrate kasi dyan naguumpisa goal setting pero ok ang yan kung dimo maabot yung time frame na sinet mo. just be natural sa playing mo. and darating ka din dun hindi nga lang mabilisan pero darating din. ako nga wala pa din kahit 9 years nakong nagdadrums. hehe

[jakobspiral]

Thanks for the replies guys, matagal pala talaga improvement sa drums, kala ko i was doing something wrong. Mas mabilis ko kasi na-incorporate mga nagagawa ko sa guitar & piano nung nagsimula ako with those instruments. Tsaka sa guitar & piano di na ko nag exercises, songs na agad. Pero sabi dito important ang exercises sa drums so mas nag-ffocus ako sa exercises ngayon...

Hindi naman sobrang frustration (medyo lang hehe ), I'm more worried on application, kung magagawa mo ba with basic rock yung ginagawa ni Steve Gadd. So kaya pala sooner or later (parang ang complicated kasi ng fills & grooves niya eh). Tiyaga lang hehe. Nung nag jam kami puro fills ni Dave Grohl pinaggagawa ko kasi yun pa lang kaya kong ipasok. I just watched the "Steve Gadd: Up Close" instructional video kanina. Galing grabe!

[niNgpo]

Sa tingin ko it's ok naman kasi malaking bagay yan para sa isang beginner. Magigin Inspirasyon niya ang drummer niya yun to work hard para maabot ang level ng idol niya di ba?

Pero minsan hindi rin ok kasi sa sobrang idol niya ang drummer na iyon eh ang inaaral lang niya ay yung palo nung drummer na yun. Hindi na siya nadaan sa mga basics, sa mga techniques na makakatulong sa kanya basta magawa niya lang ang nagagawa ng idol niya.

[makinao]

So, after doing rudiments and independence exercises almost daily for a month now (snipped) ....  Today, I finally played drums with a band for the first time. Simpleng jamming lang. (snipped again)..... My Problem: I wasn't able to invent anything more than a basic rock groove. Only a steady hi-hat, with alternating bass & snare fills. May occasional crash.

Sarcastic Answer: Geez, what did you expect after only a month of rudiments and one jam, world domination? And what's your problem with a "basic rock groove"? I bet you couldn't even get that done right. So don't come back here until you've practice so much that your fingers bleed from practicing and your muscles cramp from gigging!

Kind Answer: Don't be discouraged. A lot of us here have been through that, and even worse, so we know how frustrating it can be. You just have to keep practicing and jamming. Keep going.

Pedagogical Answer: Playing music takes at least 1) technique, and 2) creativity. First, you are off to a good start by studying rudiments. I myself wish I took it more seriously when I started. But one month is too short. You might read of some people here who had been playing for years, stop of a few months, then have a real hard time getting back into shape. Practice should be like brushing your teeth, as often as reasonably possible. Also, practice should be cumulative. For example, every week, try to do something new that will add to your skills but continue polishing things you have done in the past. So practice should be regular and evolutionary. Second, you have to be creative. In your case, I suspect gigging is your venue of choice for learning this. Again, one gig is not enough. You have to keep playing with others as often as you can. Experience will teach you the range of your possibilities between what is too simple, and what is beyond your capabilities. So keep practicing, and keep gigging.

About Idols: There is nothing wrong with listening to the "greats". But don't be surprised if it is difficult to copy them. First of all, they are years ahead of you in both practice and performance. So they can not only apply what they learn from their own practice, but can create strokes, fills, and ideas right in the middle of a performance. Second, they have already developed a unique style, which you apparently don't have yet. Its OK to study their style, just as an exercise in figuring out how they do things. But come performance time, you're on your own. Its not Steve or Vinnie playing, its you.

[jakobspiral]

Sarcastic Answer: Geez, what did you expect after only a month of rudiments and one jam, world domination? And what's your problem with a "basic rock groove"? I bet you couldn't even get that done right. So don't come back here until you've practice so much that your fingers bleed from practicing and your muscles cramp from gigging!

Kind Answer: Don't be discouraged. A lot of us here have been through that, and even worse, so we know how frustrating it can be. You just have to keep practicing and jamming. Keep going.

Pedagogical Answer: Playing music takes at least 1) technique, and 2) creativity. First, you are off to a good start by studying rudiments. I myself wish I took it more seriously when I started. But one month is too short. You might read of some people here who had been playing for years, stop of a few months, then have a real hard time getting back into shape. Practice should be like brushing your teeth, as often as reasonably possible. Also, practice should be cumulative. For example, every week, try to do something new that will add to your skills but continue polishing things you have done in the past. So practice should be regular and evolutionary. Second, you have to be creative. In your case, I suspect gigging is your venue of choice for learning this. Again, one gig is not enough. You have to keep playing with others as often as you can. Experience will teach you the range of your possibilities between what is too simple, and what is beyond your capabilities. So keep practicing, and keep gigging.

About Idols: There is nothing wrong with listening to the "greats". But don't be surprised if it is difficult to copy them. First of all, they are years ahead of you in both practice and performance. So they can not only apply what they learn from their own practice, but can create strokes, fills, and ideas right in the middle of a performance. Second, they have already developed a unique style, which you apparently don't have yet. Its OK to study their style, just as an exercise in figuring out how they do things. But come performance time, you're on your own. Its not Steve or Vinnie playing, its you.

The world domination part seriously made me laugh.

Thanks for the answer dude. It wasn't frustration actually, I was more worried that I was doing something wrong by trying to do what Steve & Vinnie are doing right from the start. Hence, the title (and question) I asked was, is it advisable for beginners to start with "the greatest" drummers? I'm originally a guitarist. Been playing guitar for 10 years now, and I honestly wouldn't recommend that a beginner start with learning Vai & Satch & Petrucci. I'd recommend that a guitarist begin with doing Bob Dylan and Beatles songs first to get his strumming & rhythmic skills right, then onto the more complicated stuff.

As an example: I have a friend who jumped straight to guitar shredding. His problem: He can't do a basic lead, I mean, he shredded (kumbaga sa drums, "overfilled") on a simple song like "When I see you smile."

I was wondering if drums work the same way as I would recommend on guitar. Should I begin with what I can do right now, someone like Dave Grohl (Nirvana only)... then onto the more complex ones like Travis Barker, Keith Moon... then maybe I can start with Carter Beauford... then after years of playing I can finally do Vinnie & Steve? I know it's impossible to do Steve & Vinnie's grooves and fills as this point, which is why I was asking if I should even continue trying? Or should I do something simpler?

I'll take out the boldface on my thread starter. I realized it gives the wrong impression...

[grasyaps]

bantan mo kagad weckel, gadd, phillips and of course, Colauita (hayup na apelido hirap ispelengin).

tapos malalaman mo namang, ndi pa time eh

[mampupunit]

bantan mo kagad weckel, gadd, phillips and of course, Colauita (hayup na apelido hirap ispelengin).

tapos malalaman mo namang, ndi pa time eh

tama!!! banat lang ng banat! kung may set ka naman sa bahay eh dba? subok lang ng subok wala namang mawawala sayo eh. basta pag nagets mo na yung mahihirap turo mo samen! hehehe

[intake]

ika nga, you must know how to walk first in order to run! parang ganun ba 

[Bammbamm]

"You have to crawl before you walk" - Billy Cobham 

[kibohead]

"you must stop walking if the light is green"-MMDA hahaha joke...what suits you pare, but usually, drumming is a step by step process. Drumming has no boundaries, kaya gawin mo kung ano ang nasasa puso mo. if you want to start advanced grooves, it's ok...you would know eventually.

[lil.drummerboy]

"you must stop walking if the light is green"-MMDA hahaha joke...what suits you pare, but usually, drumming is a step by step process. Drumming has no boundaries, kaya gawin mo kung ano ang nasasa puso mo. if you want to start advanced grooves, it's ok...you would know eventually.

oo nga! wasakan ba?

[drummerboy827]

dude, i envy you. you started with hella good drummers. groove pocket drummers. i started with technical stuff (although theres nothing wrong). im trying to get into vinnie's playing, i find it hard to appreciate.

[NATSBRATS]

It depends. Because some beginners have their "inborn" abilities in drumming. And some magsisimula talga from zero.