need help! condenser mic is clipping!

[emdsey]

hi mga sirs, newbie here 

my problem: i used to record with a shure sm58 and got great dynamics in the tracks. i could shout into the songs with minimal clipping. now, i upgraded into a samson CL7 which sounds really great when singing normal volumes. but once i get into louder parts like the chorus (not really shouting but on the verge of shouting), it clips! and it sounds terrible. i cant really correct it with my plug-in compressor. so i tried singing further away from the mic. but doing so reduces the lower frequency band in the recording.

what work arounds should i consider?

here are my theories:
> i should get a compressor/limiter hardware and connect it pre audio interface
> perhaps my audio interface device has low quality preamps (its a lexicon alpha, though im using a behringer mic200 preamp as the first input device)

most likely a comp/lim will solve this right? and thats why pros invest alot in this hardware right?

just need to confirm this to i know if thats the right place for my money to go.

thanks,
MJ

[abyssinianson]

an SM58 is a dynamic mic so by nature it is less sensitive to loud sound sources than a condenser which is powered by phantom power (48v) and is more sensitive to loud noises. to properly use a condenser is to lower the gain on your mic pre and watch the gain on the mixer to see it does not clip. you will want the fader close to zero for starters. also use a pop shield when using the condenser, it'll help smooth the signal out from plosives.

know the difference between a condenser and a dynamic. it sounds like from your story that you were buying a mic without knowing what it could do and what its characteristics were. both the CL7 and the SM58 are different by design; there is nothing wrong with the mic - just the way you were using them.

a compressor and limiter have different reasons why they are used in a chain and pros use them there to even out the signal and to clamp down on transient loud spikes in a recording so everything is even during the recording process. grab some books about recording, look up the role of gain, faders, compressors and limiters online because all of these have a specific use. the more you know what you need to do to use your gear, the more productive you will be. you can spend a million bucks on gear but if you don't know what any of them do, all of that money would have been for nothing. do your research and look up articles on how a basic recording chain is set up. from there, you can branch out into investing in better gear.

here are some starting questions for your homework:
-differences between condensers and dynamic mics.
-know the role of gain in the recoding process and how do you apply the right amount to a sound source?
-what is the basic signal route for recording?
-what counts as proper mic technique?
-what are EQ knobs for? gain knobs? faders?
-what are the fader channels for? what is a bus? how do your route through a mixer?
-what frequencies should be noted when using the EQ?
-is there such a thing as making a bad recording and fixing it at the mixer? (edit: this is a falacy and absolutely not true; a strict rule of thumb is: practice, get the take right, record a few times with the right conditions and always keep a high standard for recording. remember, if you put in cr@p effort into the recording process, you get just that back: cr@p product)
-what are the different plugs, connectors and cables commonly used in a recording setting? (know what each look like and what sets them apart)
-what is monitoring? what is a foldback mix?

These are basic questions to get your started. There are so much more to recording than your basic plug-and-play so get reading and feed your brain; the more you know the stronger the foundation you will have for your creativity.

[emdsey]

I appreciate the insights 
i did a quick research on gain (google) and learned that gain is the rate by which an input's volume is amplified. im not sure if this is completely right. it also says that it is a ratio between input and output.
so what this tells me is that i can record with the condenser at lower gain at the preamp and not lose any fidelity if i bring up the levels with the software right?

i completely agree with what you said about the cr@p in cr@p out. thats a lesson i've already learned. thats why i typically try to record as close to the clipping point as possible so that i get the best and biggest sound coming in to the track.

im not sure though what you mean by fader. are you referring to the track volume on the software mixer?

anyways, i do need to do much more homework. thanks for the help. more comments are welcome!

MJ

[abyssinianson]

I appreciate the insights 
i did a quick research on gain (google) and learned that gain is the rate by which an input's volume is amplified. im not sure if this is completely right. it also says that it is a ratio between input and output.
so what this tells me is that i can record with the condenser at lower gain at the preamp and not lose any fidelity if i bring up the levels with the software right?

i completely agree with what you said about the cr@p in cr@p out. thats a lesson i've already learned. thats why i typically try to record as close to the clipping point as possible so that i get the best and biggest sound coming in to the track.

im not sure though what you mean by fader. are you referring to the track volume on the software mixer?

anyways, i do need to do much more homework. thanks for the help. more comments are welcome!

MJ

bingo. you got the general concept of how gain works so experiment with what you've found out and see how your recordings differ with gain changes to find your sweet spot for recording music paying close attention to clipping. what happens if you have low gain? what happens if your gain is too high? do you retain the detail in your recording at all gain levels or does everything become dirtier and unusable? also, it is important to know that when you refer to fidelity, you aren't exactly describing your microphone per se. your mic will pick up some frequencies better than others in your music and this is an inherent trait in all kinds of mics which is why people usually have more than one to suit a given purpose. when you refer to fidelity, you should be looking at something deeper in your setup, specifically, the electronics of your preamp and audio interface because this is where the business end of all audio gear is located and the center of what you pay for. the difference between a 10K recording system and a 99 dollar recording system lies in the ability of the electronics to capture, as accurately as possible, the sound source. much can be said about this issue and i will leave it to your reading so you can learn more about it. i am a proponent for exploiting whatever gear you have at your disposal - you gotta know how to use your gear first before moving on to the more complex and expensive stuff because all of them work under the same principles anyway.

faders or input faders are usually found on hardware mixers and on the mixer interface of software programs. these volume control pots are in charge of sculpting the level of your input signal so it doesn't clip and distort your resulting recording. since you are recording in the computer read more about the difference between digital clipping and analog clipping so you are better aware about the limitations of digital recording to improve your recording methodology. knowing the dos and dont's of the digital domain will show you what conditions to work under so your recordings are cleaner and truer to your performance.

[marvinq]

Let me just add to the discussion the importance of good mic technique, from both the engineer/recordist's end and that of the singer.

[emdsey]

what i know so far about digital vs analog clipping - digital clips distort and sound "bitty" and harsh to the ear while analog clips give a slight overdrive effect and can add some character to the track.

well thanks for setting me in the right direction. again, i appreciate it.

MJ

[marvinq]

Actually, digital distortion also adds character, but it's one that's often undesired. Analog clipping, in large doses aren't so pretty either. Good microphone technique would be beneficial for any singer especially in a recording setting. Just knowing when to back off from a mic would benefit both the microphone and the recording itself.

[emdsey]

thanks marvin 
i did a quick search on mic techniques. i typically sing about 1 inch away from the mic to capture the most detail and move back a few inches during the louder parts. from what ive read, they recommend singing 3 inches away during soft parts and about 5-6 inches away during loud parts. hirap lang pag di sanay hehehe.

MJ