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Author Topic: manifolds/horn loaded or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?  (Read 5794 times)

Offline triciaaruba

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manifolds/hornloaded like, mb 378, tasso st315 , function one, etc
 vs  line arrays?


ako naman, sa event kc,
 ung line array, as in pang malakihang event, mabigat/ malaki ( need mo ng malaking sasakyan) at kailangn pa nya nag trasses  at mas marami dapat.maporma, expensive, astig tumong,
ung sa manifold:like mb 378 etc, 2 per side large place na di gaano mabigat, scafolds lang ok na, at pwede mo rin magmit sa maliit na event (one per side) malakas na rin , long throw, mura compare sa array,  mas madals mo magamit,( universal)
d ganoo kailangn ng madaming tao, mabilis i-set

kayo ?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 11:03:21 AM by triciaaruba »

Offline luffy

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 12:08:03 PM »
ok magshare na nga. from a DIYer perspective, i found out na hindi mo pwede icompromise ang design ng line array esp. sa SPL vs. drivers ratio. kung same drivers but used in a "one source" setup like the MB J378, mas malakas ang SPL na makukuha mo. in other words, mas sulit ang drivers mo if placed in a one source type. Kapag line array, mahal siya! mga 4 boxes at least para mag take effect ang line array. need mo maraming drivers. Ahmmm! napaubo tuloy ako... nag-DIY kami, pero daming setback :-D - mahirap i-control ang mga drivers, nag aagawan ang mid at high frequencies. it needs experience and a lot of tests... tests. pag DIY line array: many drivers doesnt essentially translate into loud SPL, sa one source medyo madali-dali lang (pero kailangan pa rin ng craftmanship like the MBs). naconfirm ko rin na hindi rin sulit ang china line arrays. in short, kaya mahal ang line array dahil sa technology niya. kung bibili ng line array, ahh di mag RCF na! sulit yon for sure. wala kasing tinawag na 'line-line array".
sa akin, one source type na lang muna. affordable kasi (kaya siguro mura ang rent haha, pero mahal na yon para sa akin!). regarding sa sound quality, i cannot say anything dahil hindi ko pa naexperience ang line array na tunay. meron ngayon exhibit. maganda sana makapunta sa Manila.

Offline aquaracer168

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 06:44:01 PM »
sir yun NEXO array ng EL Kapitan sa SMX ang lakas tumunog! maganda may shootout NEXO, JBL Vertek at RCF arrays.

Offline king_james

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 09:56:34 PM »
@ triciaaruba.

Re: your PM.

Know where your business stands.  I've heard a lot of "line array" set-ups and they do not really impress me/us.  At short distance,  they sound "clean" but essentially ordinary.  I agree with sir Luffy that you'll at least start with 4 per side flown.  But when you go to bigger venues including outdoors,  you'll need a longer line say 6,8 or even 12 per side perhaps.  It requires a more complicated set-up specifically when it comes to aiming and adjusting the individual gain settings per box.  Costs?  Don't mention :-o :-o

Offline Jef2

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 09:27:51 AM »
manifolds like, mb 378, tasso st315
 vs  line arrays?


ako naman, sa event kc,
 ung line array, as in pang malakihang event, mabigat/ malaki ( need mo ng malaking sasakyan) at kailangn pa nya nag trasses  at mas marami dapat.maporma, expensive, astig tumong,
ung sa manifold:like mb 378 etc, 2 per side large place na di gaano mabigat, scafolds lang ok na, at pwede mo rin magmit sa maliit na event (one per side) malakas na rin , long throw, mura compare sa array,  mas madals mo magamit,( universal)
d ganoo kailangn ng madaming tao, mabilis i-set

kayo ?

sir in reply to your pm,  honestly i can't afford to buy a complete set of line array.  of course i'm referring to the origs hehehe and no way for the china imitations for me huhu.  in my experience naman,  the conventional horn-loaded cabs can do the job, in any type of set-up, and with the advent of the driverack pa/pa+,  configuring your preferred speaker settings is now even easier and faster.  new affordable touring speakers and amps are now made available also kaya i'll stick where i can still earn more.  :lol: 


Offline mackie

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 10:45:30 AM »
Well as we all know line array speakers were designed for large venue concert style set-up and other event of such type. Dati sa mga ganitong kalaking venue they stock-files loads of conventional speakers which is as we know very laborious to do. Eventually large setup like this evolves into line array easier to set up and looks more pro. Considering my opinion I think we cannot compare the two speakers designs, They got their own characterestics and used. Some line array doesn't impress that much simply because sa dami ng nakasabit still meron pa din akong hinahanap or di gusto sa lumalabas. Ive heard Vertec, EV, RCF, Martin audio, Nexo, Renkuz Heinz and Kevler. Pinaka nagustuhan ko ang nexo, malinis kasi syang tumunog. Some pro-audio enthusaiasts still stick in arraying conventionals design speakers in doing large event. Like the Funktion-One owners you will see loads of their horn loaded speakers in clusters instead of line array for their open field set-up. If you want line array for your set-uo go for the branded ones, invest for the good quality and design. You just cant simply make a DIY line array there lots of things to consider, wave guide to use, angles etc otherwise you will end up suffering form cancellation and filterings.

Here is my question at the back my mind:
16 line array speakers of any brand per side in an open field and say 16 MB J-378 per side in the adjascent open field both playing the same track (offcourse using a descent power amp).. ano sa palagay nyo :-D, just a thought for you to imagine of, hehe...

Offline triciaaruba

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 10:57:14 AM »
ok nga tlaga ung mga array, nung pumuna ako sa PALMM, gustong gusto ko ng bumili ,
ang pumipigil lang sa sakin, "mas madalas ko bang magagamit", bka matulog lng ung gamit, tulog din ung pera,
parang gusto kong bumili ng maraming speaker na sa tingin ko magagamit ko madalas, at mahahati ko sa ibat ibang set-up

, parang mas trip ko pa ung dynacord cobra http://www.dynacord.com/en/products/7/2_index.html ,
 na ginya nung kevler, kc nga universal at pang malkahin,
kc meron ng akong 6hpr153i at ung frontload na 2x15
, un lang talaga sa akin,
ung pwede sa  band set-up, pang midium-large event, debut/wedding, events , midium/large prod, fashion show, exhibit, etc, na astig na rin
pag extra large ung tipong, pwede mong pag samasamahin na ok pa rin, gamit ko pa lang kc, 12 eon, 6 hpr 153i, at pair 2x15 na front load
hirap mag isip , hehehehehhe

pag nka line array ka nga , kung baga, nag LEVEL-UP ka na!!!
evolve, nag mukha ka lalong pro,  kasi nga dimo mamapapatunog yun ng maayos kung d ka pro, syang ung array effect

i'm not promoting or comparing mb-378, na sample ko lng po, im refring to  manifolds/horn loaded speakers
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 11:06:18 AM by triciaaruba »

Offline tjlimjoco

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 12:01:26 PM »
Well as we all know line array speakers were designed for large venue concert style set-up and other event of such type. Dati sa mga ganitong kalaking venue they stock-files loads of conventional speakers which is as we know very laborious to do. Eventually large setup like this evolves into line array easier to set up and looks more pro. Considering my opinion I think we cannot compare the two speakers designs, They got their own characterestics and used. Some line array doesn't impress that much simply because sa dami ng nakasabit still meron pa din akong hinahanap or di gusto sa lumalabas. Ive heard Vertec, EV, RCF, Martin audio, Nexo, Renkuz Heinz and Kevler. Pinaka nagustuhan ko ang nexo, malinis kasi syang tumunog. Some pro-audio enthusaiasts still stick in arraying conventionals design speakers in doing large event. Like the Funktion-One owners you will see loads of their horn loaded speakers in clusters instead of line array for their open field set-up. If you want line array for your set-uo go for the branded ones, invest for the good quality and design. You just cant simply make a DIY line array there lots of things to consider, wave guide to use, angles etc otherwise you will end up suffering form cancellation and filterings.

Here is my question at the back my mind:
16 line array speakers of any brand per side in an open field and say 16 MB J-378 per side in the adjascent open field both playing the same track (offcourse using a descent power amp).. ano sa palagay nyo :-D, just a thought for you to imagine of, hehe...

KoreK sir mackie magkaiba ang line arrAy sa conventi0nal designs.  YunG nga lang medy0 mahal anG branded line arrAys.  Ang gawang Tsina naman ay sabLay.  :|

Sa mGa nadinig ko na line arrAys mapa maLL set-ups at c0ncerts,  malinis tignan at malinis ang 0utput per0 nakukulangAn ako sa inTensity..

Ak0 din sa back 0f my mind,  sa MarikiNa SP0RTS C0mplex, ilan line arrAy ang iseset-up doon?  Kami kasi nawitness nA namin ang 4 na MB378 lang at hindi it0 pumiy0k  :-D

Offline inCh

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Re: manifolds or line array, anu mas ok o mas madalas nagagmit sa event?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 09:34:34 PM »
Well as we all know line array speakers were designed for large venue concert style set-up and other event of such type. Dati sa mga ganitong kalaking venue they stock-files loads of conventional speakers which is as we know very laborious to do. Eventually large setup like this evolves into line array easier to set up and looks more pro. Considering my opinion I think we cannot compare the two speakers designs, They got their own characterestics and used. Some line array doesn't impress that much simply because sa dami ng nakasabit still meron pa din akong hinahanap or di gusto sa lumalabas. Ive heard Vertec, EV, RCF, Martin audio, Nexo, Renkuz Heinz and Kevler. Pinaka nagustuhan ko ang nexo, malinis kasi syang tumunog. Some pro-audio enthusaiasts still stick in arraying conventionals design speakers in doing large event. Like the Funktion-One owners you will see loads of their horn loaded speakers in clusters instead of line array for their open field set-up. If you want line array for your set-uo go for the branded ones, invest for the good quality and design. You just cant simply make a DIY line array there lots of things to consider, wave guide to use, angles etc otherwise you will end up suffering form cancellation and filterings.

Here is my question at the back my mind:
16 line array speakers of any brand per side in an open field and say 16 MB J-378 per side in the adjascent open field both playing the same track (offcourse using a descent power amp).. ano sa palagay nyo :-D, just a thought for you to imagine of, hehe...

+1 to this!! we really can't compare the two and say the one is better than the other, because somewhere there should be a trade-off and compromise. there are a lot of factors specially the price. Iba tlga yun line array set up kaya mahal, line array speakers can deliver almost even SPL in the coverage area. The conventional of course SPL is much louder if you're near the speakers. That's why you need to consider how much dB you need for the last person in the area to hear a clear and acceptable sound, of course if the area is so large, you need to have more power for the sound to reach the last person in an acceptable SPL but the problem is the people in the front will suffer in too high SPL. Well, that's how the conventional speaker works, if you want a close to even SPL all over the area using a conventional speaker, you need to use a delay speaker to distribute the sound. Whre in a line array, the difference between SPL in the front area and the back area can be minimized.

Offline stoney73

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@triciaaruba pm inquiry:

In my personal experience,  I'll go for a real line array like the RCF, JBL, NEXO and the like.  You'll spend more but you'll get the real stuff. China line array copies are merely garbage.  As for the conventional horn-loaded enclosures you can get these everywhere but I'll go for the MB's.  They are more expensive but they are "tour proven" and they sound really good.
"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is STILL the wrong piece of gear".

Offline triciaaruba

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massasabi nyo bang long throw rin tlaga ang array, or mid throw?

Offline constantpressure

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Did I Hear Someone Say “Line Array?”

The problems and limitations of the conventional speaker array were very clearly understood by the mid 80s. The answers were a little slower in coming. One of the reasons could only be called ‘cultural mindset’. A culture of “this is how we do it and don’t argue” persisted for some time, (could also be called…”this is all I can understand“), along with the big ugly arrays and uglier ground stacks of both horn-loaded and frontal radiating boxes. ‘Loaded’ in this instance, refers to the air mass loading on the driver at the apex of the horn. A new approach lay buried in theoretical texts from the 40’s and 50’s. It was called the ‘Line Source’ effect

So what is a Line Array and how woes it work?

To understand this answer, we need to go back to the Inverse Square law and our Spherical Propagation of Sound Model.

You can see that by segmenting the Spherical Propagation model we are stuck with 6 dB loss with a conventional square cluster of boxes. When we start stacking the sound sources on top of each other in a vertical array, something happens to our spherical model. With a tall line of transducers, the source of the wave is emanating from a line source instead of a point source.

The line source propagates the wave so it emanates like a cylindrical shape, instead of a spherical. Harry F. Olson first published an extensive and very influential work on this subject in the early 50s, in the book Acoustical Engineering.

Line array loudspeakers date from the early days of acoustical research when it was observed that a simple vertical array of acoustic radiators produced increased directivity in the vertical plane. Old early line source boxes can still be seen in many old town halls and public venues. They were much smaller than horn-loaded boxes and were found to project voice well. Note: by directivity, we mean the degree, to which the wave is directed to a narrower or more directional field of coverage,

In a Line Source, the Inverse Square Law No Longer Applies, Or Does it?
A line source of wave propagation has the characteristic of having its SPL fall off at a rate of 3 dB per doubling of distance, (as oppose to 6dB). This is a well-known characteristic of infinite line sources. As an empirical example consider the observed behaviour of the noise pollution from a highway: People living near highways are the unfortunate victims of the highway noise only falling at only 3dB per doubling of distance from the highway. That's because the highway noise source precisely fits the model of an infinite line source, especially if it’s in a valley and you live on the hill above.

Infinite Line Source Theory

The SPL from a theoretically infinitely long line source falls off at a rate of 3 dB per doubling of distance. This is because the energy distribution is now over the surface of a cylinder, rather than a sphere as in the case of the point source. Because the surface area of the expanding cylinder is inversely proportional to distance, not distance squared, it follows that the energy density falls simply with distance from the source, rather than distance squared.

This works for an ‘infinite’ line source but for a finite full bandwidth line array, the line source effect breaks down after a distance and the wave again takes on the appearance of the point source and will again attenuate at 6dB. Remember, a real line array PA system is not a theoretical infinite line source.
What happens to a line array in the real world?

As soon as we start stacking speakers in a close proximity to each other, we are again (back) in the land of interference effect, phase shift and the associated geometries. For a practical example; a concert line array of 15 cabinets (each using 12-inch low-frequency cones), a slight ‘cylindrical wave-like’ effect can be considered in the low mid area, where there is only a 3dB drop between 2m and 4m from the array. As we start to move further from the array, the sound will begin to spread spherically, losing 6dB per distance doubling.

At frequencies below 100Hz, the drivers in a practical line array will be omni directional because the array length will be small compared with the sound wavelength, so the system will not conform to line array theory uniformly across all frequencies.

Above about 400Hz the low-frequency cones become directional, again violating the theory’s assumptions, and at high frequencies, many practical systems use directional waveguides whose behavior cannot be described using classical line array theory. In short, the geometry of real-world audio line arrays is too complicated to be modeled accurately by ‘pure’ line array theory.

A Remember, the original research and formulas are intended for line source boxes that were a long line of small speakers, all the same producing a relatively narrow band of frequencies.

As many technically knowledgeable authors have pointed out, the terms “line array” and “line source” are not synonymous. To propagate low frequencies via a line source, with the (presumably) desired –3 dB loss per doubling of distance, you need an extremely tall line. A reasonable approximation of a “cylindrical wave front” requires a line height of about 4x the wavelength. So for 50 Hz, we need a 26.6m tall line, or say, 60 cabinets. Many commercial “line array loudspeakers” are slightly less than .5m high.

On the other hand, a ribbon roughly 13 cm high would be an 8x wavelength tall line source for 20 kHz, and would have an extremely narrow front lobe. But if this 13 cm high line is composed of separate sources they need to be at most 0.8 cm apart: otherwise the “line” breaks apart into separate sources that interfere destructively with each other. We would need 3200 tweeters to maintain 1/2 wavelength spacing at 20 kHz over a 26.5m high line.

We can see now that not only is it extremely difficult to construct a full-range line source, it’s not actually very useful. In the near field, the vertical coverage of line source coverage does not exceed its height. The number of audience areas that require this tightly restricted vertical coverage is extremely small. So if they don’t work that well at a theoretical level, why are they now fashionable?
Another History Lesson

Back in the early 90s, an unknown (outside of France), French company called L-Acoustics burst on to the scene with the first (really) practical system marketed as a line array. It went against the conventions of the time (a normal French cultural engineering approach), and was a brave move that paid off with stunning results that moved the technical centre of gravity back to Europe.

A very clever design developed by Dr Christian Heil took everybody back to square one as far as arena and big gig shows went. The system was not so flexible for the small to mid sized companies but for large-scale shows and big auditoria; it was a real problem solver for a number of reasons.


Dr Heil came up with a number of practical solutions that didn’t necessarily solve every obstacle with building a workable full bandwidth line array, but he did end up with a functional system that delivered uniformly very good results in the intended market. Part of the technology included the L-Acoustics array and modeling software so that the system could be custom-rigged to suit each venue. He also only supplied the system to companies with the technical competence to implement the technology correctly. This previously untested marketing and technical support approach guaranteed good results.




Apart from the fact that the V-DOSC system sounded good, the introduction of the relatively compact line array system coincided with a major change in the visual fashion of pop music PAs. The shift from massive semi-circular left and right arrays, to much smaller J-shaped hangs drastically reduced the number of sound sources brought into the venue, and therefore the potential for multiple arrivals, interference and incoherent sound.

For the same venue, a “line” array will use as few as one quarter the number of drivers deployed within a big horizontal array. As lights, video and special effects become more important in the pop music presentation, stage and lighting designers were only too happy to embrace the new smaller, lighter line arrays. Road crews were happy as well. As we have already seen, much of the old-style horizontal array’s output was wasted due to interference and poor aiming. “Overkill” sound systems with five-high columns aimed at venue sidewalls were still common in 90s.

Audiences benefited from the new “line” array because they were no longer being pulverized by too many big lumpy horn loaded boxes turned up too loud, bouncing off every available hard surface. Coverage was more predictable with this type of system. It’s easier for a manufacturer to model in virtual space as it comes with fixed rigging in the vertical plane, there is only one way to ‘fly’ it and less ways to get it wrong.

An un-shaded straight vertical line array is a ‘tunnel’ of focused high SPL. It is still prone to interferences but certainly delivers where it’s pointed. Let’s introduce the ‘J’ curve.

A straight array. It’s still not perfect, but it is a big improvement on the big ground stack. The graduations indicate dB SPL, not frequency response.

The J-shaped array can produce reasonably even front to rear SPL (volume) using “Angular Shading” or “Amplitude Shading.”

Creating Even Coverage: Shading SPL

Amplitude (output), shading is where one cabinet is powered at full output and the next one is turned down a little. This produces a pressure difference and resultant side lobes: perhaps not as severe as those at the end of a line of equal pressure sources, but clearly audible nonetheless. Remember with changes in pressure, waves start bending and changing their behavior.
Rather than turn down boxes, what about gradually spreading the energy over a larger area?

The concept of angular volume shading is a line of equal pressure where the pressure is distributed over a wider angle, as the listener gets closer. Here’s what that looks like in an elevation view:

The goal is a zone that maintains equal pressure while its curvature is varied over a fairly wide range.
So What Does it All Mean?

It means that like all fashion, once the idea catches on, it is copied and done to death by everybody. The line array is not a panacea to all audio problems, it is a specialist tool, but one thing is for certain, light weight, hi-fidelity powerful sound systems are the new market demand whether we are talking about a semi full of gear or a pair of plastic boxes.

Have fun! enjoy life.
jojo
Never look down on anybody, unless you're helping them
Those who have much are often greedy, those who have little always share...Oscar Wilde

Offline jtb

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dami talaga matututunan dito, salamat sa share Sir constantpressure. :-D