SHOULD WE ALWAYS RATIONALIZE GOOD TONE/BAD TONE?

[Deacon Blues]

Looking back at the 'Tunnel Vision' thread, it's kinda sad how what seemed like a healthy discussion turned out into another heated, personal argument ..

Pallas does have a point about the same ****cycle recurring ...

Anyway, this brings us to yet another question (here we go again on spin cycle ... hehehe)

DO WE ALWAYS HAVE TO RATIONALIZE WHY SOMETHING SOUNDS GOOD OR SOUNDS BAD?

Some people say ...

1) It's made of ash ... ergo, it should sound like this ...

2) Oh, it's alder ... no wonder it sounds like this ...

3) Ahhh, you've got the modded TS-9, I'm not surprised it sounds great

4) Man, my wah sucks tone so much! I should have it modded for true bypass

5) Your strat pickups are ceramic, that's why they'd never get this so and so tone ...

And so on ...

It's funny but, to this day, I never seem to care so much to know about what wood my guitars are made of. Asked about a particular guitar's wood type, I'd just say ... "oh, it's hard ..."  

Not that I'm not saying that wood doesn't have any bearing on the tone. I'm just being very careful here, lest we spark yet another debate about wood types and their corresponding tonal properties.

Let's just say, I'm aware of such nuances, BUT ...

Here's the point: I don't get too anal about it and rationalize it's tone that way.

For me, either a guitar 'speaks to you' or not ...

If it sounds good, I'm hooked ..

If it doesn't, then it doesn't ...

Now, I'm not saying that we can't benefit from the vast knowledge that we can glean from people who have made extensive theses about these topics. Sure, we can ...

Like most of you here, I've had my own fair share of those 'tone quests' ... pickup swaps, overdrive chip mods, orange cap mods, and so on ...

But you know what?

Through it all, I can't really say that I 'know' anything now ... even with everything that I've 'learned' so far ...

Because more often, I realized that too much knowledge can work against us at some point.

For instance, are we really listening to the sound at hand, or are we really hearing the voice of our own prejudices and biased opinions? Sometimes, we justify a recent purchase, mod or upgrade of any sort just because we feel 'safe and secure' knowing that we're in the same league as others whose opinions we look up to, or, hero-worship-wise, we sometimes feel a false sense of security knowing that 'if I play what my idol plays, I'll sound like my idol.

Great tone doesn't always come at a steep price. I know of a few posters here who, despite their expensive gear, swear by the tone of a cheap, unknown guitar brand, or pedals, or amps.

Posting about boutique brands may seem like some form of snobbery for some people, but why should it always be perceived as a personal threat or insult? Why don't we just take what we can learn, and transcend the chest-thumping crap? If you don't like something you see, just ignore it.

But what if that same person posted something positive about a cheap brand? Would we doubt his taste?

Unlike most of you here who've known each other for quite sometime, I'm just a newbie here. I've been a 'lurker' for quite some time, and I'm always amazed at the introspective threads and the ensuing debates ...

It's definitely much more interesting than watching the evening news, or having to stomach all that cheesy showbiz crap ...

[oasgomez-is-banned]

Boss,

Agree 100%.  

I actually also gave up trying to figure out the sound timbre of what a certain type of wood brings.

Agree.  Either its speaks to you immediately or not.  Kailangan either may magic or wala.

Like you.  I know now that I do not know much but even if I dont know much now, I will still tell this forum who I think makes good equipment even if I really dont have the technical knowledge to explain why it works.

Punta ka sa May 1 afternoon kina Arie.  Enjoy lang.  I will reinforce your piont that it does not matter what you trace it too because its more than the sum of all parts.

Even if you are a newbie here, you have more wisdom than some of the people here because he is open minded.

Cheers.  By the way, hindi ko kilala sa Deacon Blues.  Wala kaming arrangement.  Its for newbies like him that I continue posting on this forum despite advice from people not to participate due to the likes of Ag3nt and others.

[progressive_pilipinas]

i think there are more things we should learn when getting into this forums and doing some postings. aside from gear knowledge, tone knowledge and theory knowledge,  there is this thing called respect for someone else's opinion and discipline of oneself. Lets make discussions more interesting and avoid hitting at other people.

i just hate it when an irrelevant name comes up in a thread - then the fire begins.

[lykenhowl]

i think there are more things we should learn when getting into this forums and doing some postings. aside from gear knowledge, tone knowledge and theory knowledge,  there is this thing called respect for someone else's opinion and discipline of oneself. Lets make discussions more interesting and avoid hitting at other people.

i just hate it when an irrelevant name comes up in a thread - then the fire begins.

Amen on that bro!!!

[CARABAO]

i think there are more things we should learn when getting into this forums and doing some postings. aside from gear knowledge, tone knowledge and theory knowledge,  there is this thing called respect for someone else's opinion and discipline of oneself. Lets make discussions more interesting and avoid hitting at other people.

i just hate it when an irrelevant name comes up in a thread - then the fire begins.

Amen on that bro!!!

yeah dude. anti gatong campaign!!

[pallas]

Looking back at the 'Tunnel Vision' thread, it's kinda sad how what seemed like a healthy discussion turned out into another heated, personal argument ..

Pallas does have a point about the same ****cycle recurring ...

Anyway, this brings us to yet another question (here we go again on spin cycle ... hehehe)

DO WE ALWAYS HAVE TO RATIONALIZE WHY SOMETHING SOUNDS GOOD OR SOUNDS BAD?

Some people say ...

1) It's made of ash ... ergo, it should sound like this ...

2) Oh, it's alder ... no wonder it sounds like this ...

3) Ahhh, you've got the modded TS-9, I'm not surprised it sounds great

4) Man, my wah sucks tone so much! I should have it modded for true bypass

5) Your strat pickups are ceramic, that's why they'd never get this so and so tone ...

And so on ...

It's funny but, to this day, I never seem to care so much to know about what wood my guitars are made of. Asked about a particular guitar's wood type, I'd just say ... "oh, it's hard ..."  

Not that I'm not saying that wood doesn't have any bearing on the tone. I'm just being very careful here, lest we spark yet another debate about wood types and their corresponding tonal properties.

Let's just say, I'm aware of such nuances, BUT ...

Here's the point: I don't get too anal about it and rationalize it's tone that way.

For me, either a guitar 'speaks to you' or not ...

If it sounds good, I'm hooked ..

If it doesn't, then it doesn't ...

Now, I'm not saying that we can't benefit from the vast knowledge that we can glean from people who have made extensive theses about these topics. Sure, we can ...

Like most of you here, I've had my own fair share of those 'tone quests' ... pickup swaps, overdrive chip mods, orange cap mods, and so on ...

But you know what?

Through it all, I can't really say that I 'know' anything now ... even with everything that I've 'learned' so far ...

Because more often, I realized that too much knowledge can work against us at some point.

For instance, are we really listening to the sound at hand, or are we really hearing the voice of our own prejudices and biased opinions? Sometimes, we justify a recent purchase, mod or upgrade of any sort just because we feel 'safe and secure' knowing that we're in the same league as others whose opinions we look up to, or, hero-worship-wise, we sometimes feel a false sense of security knowing that 'if I play what my idol plays, I'll sound like my idol.

Great tone doesn't always come at a steep price. I know of a few posters here who, despite their expensive gear, swear by the tone of a cheap, unknown guitar brand, or pedals, or amps.

Posting about boutique brands may seem like some form of snobbery for some people, but why should it always be perceived as a personal threat or insult? Why don't we just take what we can learn, and transcend the chest-thumping crap? If you don't like something you see, just ignore it.

But what if that same person posted something positive about a cheap brand? Would we doubt his taste?

Unlike most of you here who've known each other for quite sometime, I'm just a newbie here. I've been a 'lurker' for quite some time, and I'm always amazed at the introspective threads and the ensuing debates ...

It's definitely much more interesting than watching the evening news, or having to stomach all that cheesy showbiz crap ...

Hey Deacon Blues...awesome post You get my vote as a moderator

[bunny rabbit]

+100 Good post bro. I think we shouldn't rationalize good/bad tone simply because   one's definition or perception of good tone is very subjective. For example, Hendrix's sound may seem awesome to one but total crap to another. In addition, yes, the price of certain equipment does not necessarily equate to a better tone. It's the player's job to effectively manipulate equipment to acheive his desired tone.

Yun lang. Peace!

[Poundcake]

i agree. i think the best way to rationalize good tone or bad tone is not to look at the individual characteristics of each pedal, guitar or whatever, but to see whether a musician can truly use the sound that his equipment can make to its fullest to create meaningful music. yes, the choice of individual pickups, pedals and so on has an effect, but even if a musician's equipment is not ideal for the songs that he's supposed to play, if he can make whatever stuff he has sound good at the very least, albeit not perfect, then we can say that he's using the best tone that he can get from his gear. but of course, in a way you have to shell out money to get good and versatile, but not necessarily top-of-the-line, equipment.

i think this is very applicable to the average Filipino musician because of course, most of us could only afford to buy just one set of gear and not one set per genre or application. thus, i'd like to view good tone or bad tone as how the musician uses or mixes his gear to express himself and at the same time, to make himself blend well with the band. remember, not every guitarist is an Aya Yuson or a Robert Johnson. there are other instrumentalists too

[BAMF]

In our gig two nights ago, the importance of a good tone just slammed on me and underscored what I've known all along but tried to rationalize out of the equation.

It was the first time that I used my TS7--> Zoom 505 live. Of course I already have a budding stompbox collection, but portability was the essence that night as I was only on a motorbike.

We performed the same songs, the same tipa. Only difference was that the TS distortion went on top of the 505 distortion and produced a massive soundwall in the venue. It just changed the feel of the songs...more angry, more open. And the reception after our set was...gawd...we never got any of those accolades before.

Many guitarists I love I do not consider as technically proficient, or not in the guitar god category. Like The Edge. But his tone...or better, his *choice* of tones to use just epitomizes the U2 sound, and its a sound that blows people away.

Tone is important. Sometimes when you go to a gig, you're not really looking for the licks or whatever. Sometimes a band like Green Day with exclusively power chords will blow you away.

Fingers and tone are important...but...at the end of the day, the audience may not remember your tone, or your licks, but they will remember the EXPERIENCE of watching you perform.

And that's a combination of many factors

[fingertapper1]

In our gig two nights ago, the importance of a good tone just slammed on me and underscored what I've known all along but tried to rationalize out of the equation.

It was the first time that I used my TS7--> Zoom 505 live. Of course I already have a budding stompbox collection, but portability was the essence that night as I was only on a motorbike.

We performed the same songs, the same tipa. Only difference was that the TS distortion went on top of the 505 distortion and produced a massive soundwall in the venue. It just changed the feel of the songs...more angry, more open. And the reception after our set was...gawd...we never got any of those accolades before.

Many guitarists I love I do not consider as technically proficient, or not in the guitar god category. Like The Edge. But his tone...or better, his *choice* of tones to use just epitomizes the U2 sound, and its a sound that blows people away.

Tone is important. Sometimes when you go to a gig, you're not really looking for the licks or whatever. Sometimes a band like Green Day with exclusively power chords will blow you away.

Fingers and tone are important...but...at the end of the day, the audience may not remember your tone, or your licks, but they will remember the EXPERIENCE of watching you perform.

And that's a combination of many factors

oo nga sir. showmanship talaga plays a big factor. saka dapat solid yung tunog mo kahit di ka sobrang techincal or whatever. i saw my friend performed with his band dati. i was blown away by their performance. hanggang ngayon nakatatak sa isip ko. di sila technical pero tamang solid ung tugtugan tapos nakaka wow ung performance nila.

kaya un simula nun i draw inspiration from that. it really changed my outlook on performing.

but i must admit na kanya kanyang approach at opinions lang naman yan e. kasi i've been to gigs din naman na mga banda na di masyado sa showmanship side e malakas pa rin ang dating. i think it really is in the WHOLE MUSICAL EXPERIENCE... from the lyrics, tone, dynamics, impact, how you look and move on stage etc... everything is accounted for.

[af_villaruel]

+100

Moreover, rather than obsessing over collecting and knowing the ins-and-outs of music gear, we must write (or at least help create) songs. It doesn't matter how good or how bad the song turns out because it adds to your experience and maturity. As musicians, that should be top priority--the expression of ourselves through our music.  

I admit I'm a victim of GAS. Hehehe. But then again, I try my best not to let it stop me from doing what I think I can do best in terms of music--arranging. I may not be that good for some people, but that's why I'm trying hard to improve myself.

(Sabay bawi) Pero cases of being anal with your gear doesn't hurt, if done from time to time only. Hehehehe.

And regarding showmanship, you're so right. My acoustic band has two singers, one male and one lesbian. Yung male vocalist namin is NOT GOOD in terms of singing. (He won't read this anyway, and besides aminado naman sha) He can sing in tune, yes, pero he can't do R&B voice styling which is expected of him kasi acoustic R&B/hiphop kami. But when you see the way he handles a crowd and the way he conducts himself onstage, you'll be amazed. I've heard a lot of girls say na magaling siya kumanta just because of stage presence.

Kudos to Deacon Blues. Nice post, bro.