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Author Topic: jazz desperate.. help appreciated..  (Read 11709 times)

Offline progressive_pilipinas

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jazz desperate.. help appreciated..
« on: May 16, 2006, 10:19:20 AM »
Quote from: progressive_pilipinas

hindi ako nagtutunog jazz pag nagsosolo ako.. talagang ayaw ng pulso ko magtunog jazz,, nakakafrustrate, parang ayaw ko na humawak ng gitara, pano ba kasi? ano ba problema ko sa pagsosolo? hehe..


baby steps muna kiddo - forget about the chords and scales - try to "get" the jazz vocabulary, understand it, internalize it. Don't listen to guitarists first - listen to horn players solos' - analyze the way they phrase their lines.

Try to sing or hum your solos like George Benson or a scat singer. Then pick up your guitar and try to play the music in your head.
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Offline boyet

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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2006, 02:12:44 PM »
Welcome to the club! Sa maga sinabi mo I think you already know some of the vocabulary and the tools for soloing but you have to feel the music. It's like talking, you have to express yourself...you have to breathe and groove while playing. Listen to the horn players how they construct phrases and speak with their lines. Parang sentence din may antecedent and consequent. Plus don't forget to let your lines "swing". Pag di nag swing ang lines mo talagang di ka magtutunog "jazz" 8)

Groove and feel the music! 8)
If it is art it is not for all. If it is for all it is not art. -SchoenbergQuestion: How do you make a million dollars playing jazz?Answer: Start with two million

Offline markthevirtuoso

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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 12:31:39 AM »
I've also just been into jazz lately. Galing din ako ng rock. Medyo mahirap nga. Kailangan lagi kang nakikinig ng various jazz recordings para maisapuso mo yung groove and feel. You have to start to learning the simple basics din. I mean you can't really jump ahead learning Pat Metheny di ba. Syempre kailangan ding may influence ka.

That's all i can share in the meantime. I've got a long way to go to play it properly. :D
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 02:04:36 AM »
Try looking for books or any information on Jazz Improvisation which is one of the main keys to jazz soloing. Listen to jazz greats, John Coltrane, Louis Armstrong, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis, etc. Although they are not guitar players, you can learn a lot from how they played and did their soloes. Then try to incorporate the ideas into your guitar playing.

Here are links to tutorials and information on Jazz theory and improvisation.

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/
http://www.apassion4jazz.net/
http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-theory.html

Hope that helps and good luck.

Offline psychic_sushi

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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 08:51:50 AM »
Additionally, you have to learn by osmosis. Listen, listen, listen, then emulate.

The truth is, we have to choose an artist and absorb his style, as a springboard lang. Listen until the lines sound familiar and try to get them under your fingers.

I too, started off as a rocker and made the painfully slow transition to jazz and bop. heck, i stilll struggle today! but the biggest impediment in the transition i learnt was the THINKING.

Rock guitarists think "linear". We identify the key, then run melodies over the changes, seldomly departing from a few scale tones.

Jazz musicians, on the other hand, play with more emphasis on chord tones, substitutions, and are heavily rhythmic ("it don't mean a thing, if you ain't got that swing" hahahaha, very very true!)

here's a (very very) basic practice recipe to help you, i'm gonna spill the beans-

1. try soloing of the standards utilizing ONLY the triad chord tones of each chord change.
2. connect the notes with chromatic tones
3. be STRICT with your time. try swing or bop quarter notes. speed doesn't matter yet, you have that na
4. sing your lines
5. grow a goatee, wear a berret and walk with steady swing feel (just kidding!)

these are just the basics. when i started just using the basic chord tones, i kept thinking about malmsteen! hahahaha! here's another thing you can add to tip no1, which will be your guiding reference FOREVER-

target the 3RD and 7TH interval of every chord at the change. you'll be surprised at the difference this makes. it'll change even your rock approach, and possibly, your entire life, just as it did to mine ;)

for listening reference, i would suggest wes montgomery and tal farlow, but their technique and soul may inspire or scare you. i would suggest that a good guitarist to emulate is jim hall. he says so much using so little, emphasising on "painting" over the changes and has great rhythm. his style is beautiful and artistic. his "Concierto" album can be found at tower records, and features a fantastic band, Chet Baker on trumpet, Paul Desmond on alto saxophone, Sir Roland Hanna on piano, Ron Carter on bass and Steve Gadd. Listen to the interplay, and particularly Hall, Desmond and Chet Bakers lines. art in motion! Chet Baker too, is amazing. I mentioned before somewhere that Hall paints over the changes, while Baker embraces and carresses them.

oh, and propare for more headaches and pain. it can be very frustrating at first, but you'll be surprised that after studying the resources on the net and just listening, one day the circuits will connect and your fluency will accelerate :) good luck!
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn


Offline darnel

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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 10:34:23 PM »
learning jazz is like learning a new language.. try to buy a lick or a riff book for jazz initially, just to get your feet wet.. then try to make your own variations.. try to get a copy of Jimmy Bruno's No Nonsense Jazz Guitar" , a very good foundation lesson or even the Joe Pass videos

try to transcribe a few easy lines first.. Jim Hall plays doesnt play a lot of notes, but the notes that he chose to to play are very beautiful.. si Charlie Christian din!!  :)

Learn as many standards and bebop heads as you can... learning the melody in different positions is a huge help

dont get hung up on scales and theories... theories are only good if you can apply it in practical situations... Its good that you have a good foundation of theory but it doesnt end there.. If theres one theory na malaking tulong is learning the intervallic relationships of a particular note to a given chord... try also to maximize the utility of the major scale before going into other scales.. sa major scale pa lng dami ka na magagawa

listen, listen, listen... ibabad mo lng tenga mo sa jazz 24/7.. Dun mo lng talaga makukuha yung feel e.. Listen to bass, piano, horn players, even drummers... those guys are way ahead in jazz compared to the average jazz guitar players... mas madami kng matutunan sa pakikinig sa kanila

Finally, Find an artist that inspires you to play.. kahit sino, mapa kapitbahay nyo, basta jazz ang tugtugan






Hope this helps  :)
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Offline rodney vidanes

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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2006, 02:25:17 AM »
i agree with them..at tama lang na may basic knowledge tayo ng theory because that's what we need to take off..now we all have the theoretical resources,then we apply it whatever is required of us to do or to deliver to a particular piece.gaya ng sinabi ng isang bro here,sa major scale pa lang ang dami mong magagawang tunog or melody..minsan parang feeling natin limiting sya na major scale lang but actually it's not...when you rely on patterns or scalar exercises,somehow yun at yun lagi mong magagawa at kahit papano you pay less attention sa sound or melody it creates--minsan sa rock or metal your goal is to improve your speed of doing a riff or solo smoothly,technical siya pero it's not the case in jazz.

jazz isnt about angst but it's about soul,it's about you.it involves heartfelt tunes talaga with emphasis on chord changes and improvisational solos na minsan kahit gano kahaba mo gusto depende sa hinihingi ng kanta or depende kung gano kalawak ang freedom ng band.

dont hurry up to sound like jazz with regard to your solos..listen,listen and listen all the time lang..absorb the juices of jazz music inwardly..and before you know it,you're soloing like a soaring horn player.   :)
John 3:16

Offline psychic_sushi

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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2006, 08:35:14 AM »
Quote from: rodney vidanes
i agree with them..at tama lang na may basic knowledge tayo ng theory because that's what we need to take off..now we all have the theoretical resources,then we apply it whatever is required of us to do or to deliver to a particular piece.gaya ng sinabi ng isang bro here,sa major scale pa lang ang dami mong magagawang tunog or melody..minsan parang feeling natin limiting sya na major scale lang but actually it's not...when you rely on patterns or scalar exercises,somehow yun at yun lagi mong magagawa at kahit papano you pay less attention sa sound or melody it creates--minsan sa rock or metal your goal is to improve your speed of doing a riff or solo smoothly,technical siya pero it's not the case in jazz.

jazz isnt about angst but it's about soul,it's about you.it involves heartfelt tunes talaga with emphasis on chord changes and improvisational solos na minsan kahit gano kahaba mo gusto depende sa hinihingi ng kanta or depende kung gano kalawak ang freedom ng band.

dont hurry up to sound like jazz with regard to your solos..listen,listen and listen all the time lang..absorb the juices of jazz music inwardly..and before you know it,you're soloing like a soaring horn player.   :)


right on ;) basic theory is helpful. heck, its the only thing that saves my butt. but, what'll keep everybodies spirit up is to know that most of our jazz demi-gods picked up their style from the street. its the "self-education" from experiences that moulded their style. its all about the interpretation of emotions, all about art. and developing the facility to make your techniques second nature to you, as fluent as speaking, and ultimately, finding your own voice within the babel of jazz voices.

i personally believe that getting your feet wet with books is a fantastic way of getting on the jazz boat. don't worry about the jazz police blowing the whistle on you because you don't sound jazz enough when you solo. (believe me, the jazz police gave my case up to the CIA, hehehe)
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn

Offline psychic_sushi

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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2006, 08:35:23 AM »
Quote from: rodney vidanes
i agree with them..at tama lang na may basic knowledge tayo ng theory because that's what we need to take off..now we all have the theoretical resources,then we apply it whatever is required of us to do or to deliver to a particular piece.gaya ng sinabi ng isang bro here,sa major scale pa lang ang dami mong magagawang tunog or melody..minsan parang feeling natin limiting sya na major scale lang but actually it's not...when you rely on patterns or scalar exercises,somehow yun at yun lagi mong magagawa at kahit papano you pay less attention sa sound or melody it creates--minsan sa rock or metal your goal is to improve your speed of doing a riff or solo smoothly,technical siya pero it's not the case in jazz.

jazz isnt about angst but it's about soul,it's about you.it involves heartfelt tunes talaga with emphasis on chord changes and improvisational solos na minsan kahit gano kahaba mo gusto depende sa hinihingi ng kanta or depende kung gano kalawak ang freedom ng band.

dont hurry up to sound like jazz with regard to your solos..listen,listen and listen all the time lang..absorb the juices of jazz music inwardly..and before you know it,you're soloing like a soaring horn player.   :)


right on ;) basic theory is helpful. heck, its the only thing that saves my butt. but, what'll keep everybodies spirit up is to know that most of our jazz demi-gods picked up their style from the street. its the "self-education" from experiences that moulded their style. its all about the interpretation of emotions, all about art. and developing the facility to make your techniques second nature to you, as fluent as speaking, and ultimately, finding your own voice within the babel of jazz voices.

i personally believe that getting your feet wet with books is a fantastic way of getting on the jazz boat. don't worry about the jazz police blowing the whistle on you because you don't sound jazz enough when you solo. (believe me, the jazz police gave my case up to the CIA, hehehe)
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn

Offline progressive_pilipinas

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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2006, 05:33:14 AM »
whew!

that was unbelievable.. thank you guys, yeah i really need to dedicate more of my listening to those jazz artists you all suggested. madami dami yun, i just wish i had more time instead of only about an hour 4times a week to bossa nova, and nothing else. hahaha!

thank you!
The fretboard is a vast universe.

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Offline psychic_sushi

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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2006, 10:04:56 AM »
well, its time to follow pat martino's lead and invest in an IPOD or any kind of portable music device. keeps me sane when i commute, i hate it when i'm trapped in the mrt next to noisy folks. i'm careful with what i feed my ears and heasd with. just like food, music has dietary properties that have to be looked into to and considered.... too much love radio is bad for your jazz-health! :D ;)
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn

Offline Boddhisattva

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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2006, 03:59:44 PM »
great discussion!

phrasing is one of the factors that differentiate rock-playing, aside from of course, jazz chords. one thing with phrasing is it could only be learned by taking things to heart. no book tells you how to phrase in a jazz style.

your concerns are also my concern, and the only real way is to study, study, play, play and play. even better is to play with seasoned ones here in this forum. : )
Give it all you\'ve got, but slowly - Chuck Mangione

Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2006, 10:43:02 PM »
sorry sirs, lost ako hehe. meron akong muni muni na matagal ko na minimunimuni. solid. if i have a basic two chord jazz song, sabhin na natin bossa yung feel. DM7 at Dm7 lang sya for 20 minutes. hehe biro lang. pag DM7 na po ba yung chord kelangan DMajor ang scales na titirahin ko at paglipat na paglipat nysa sa Dm7, eh hahabulin ko naman ang Dminor na scale? kase lalo na po sa fusion at sa mga bossa, napakabilis ng transition ng chords. ang iniisip ko , e necessary ba na sabayan ko ang DMajor na scales pag DM7 na ang feel ng song..? pati pag sa solo. kase po pag nasa rock ho tayo, sobrang safe ka na laruin ung buong D Major , you ll never hit a wrong key, weak note oo, pero never a wrong one.

what struck me nun first timer ako sa jazz, bat may apat na magkakatabing nota sa fretboard ng mokong na to.. yun pala nag iiba ang root chord nung mga scales. gumagalaw sila. tapos naitanong ko, bat pag nasa normal music tayo kelangan ang ganitong pattern G Am Bm C D Em F#. meron po ung usual na interval na kinasanayan ng tenga. Sa jazz po ba totally limitless? pde mo sabayan ng Gm ang GMajor na song, at pde mo sabayan pa ng iba pang chords na katabi lang naman?

at bat nakakabaliw ang bossa? hindi ko mahanap ang akmang scales para dito. sirang sira na ulo ko help hehe. sabi saken kelangan daw marunong ako kumanta. damn.

Offline progressive_pilipinas

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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 09:24:02 AM »
@mahavishnu:

mahilig ka sa bossa? ako din, ahaha, at oo lumilipad ang mga chords sa jazz music, marami kasing factors, kkatuwa. mahilig ako sa bossa sobra.  :)
The fretboard is a vast universe.

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Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2006, 03:21:42 PM »
opo sir, pero ang first bossa ko narinig, ay kay ma'am astrud. tapos don ko narinig first time din kumanta ang gtarista't asawa nya si joao.. simula non sinundan ko na ang bossa. tapos nakilala ko ang ama, si jobim. mga tagasulat si vinicius de moraes. at ang taga ihip ng hangin.. si stan getz. hehe. iba ang bossa. kelangan malibog ka. haha oops. seductive yung tamang term. mejo din biased ako kase, i love everything brasil. ciudade de deus na pelikula hehe, jiu jitsu lalo na, ang carnaval ng rio. at ang mga girls sa ipanema. kaya baliw ako sa bossa. gusto ko nga aralin ang portugues ng brasil. ipa kase ang tono neto kumpara sa mother portugues.

nkausap ko nga si sir johnny alegre tungkol sa bossa at mejo napunta kame sa brazilian jazz. grabe daw ang evolution neto at mas nakakapraning ang mga compositions. sobrang exotic kumbaga. sa pilipinas, umm so far iilan pa lang napapanod ko na malupit bumanat ng bossa at samba. isa na jan ang guarana. blue room malupit din dahil may rio flavor,  mejo matt bianco/basia din yun dating. tapos yun isa pang band sa cafe havana, nkalimutan ko na. yung isang banda din sa peninsula malupet hehe. nothing against mainstream artist who tackles bossa, wla lang talaga akong interes o hindi ako sumasaludo sa puro cover or assimilation. tama ba yun term? hehe

hanggang ngayon hindi ko padn alam ang sikreto ng bossa. cguro kelangan ko magkalat ng panganay tulad ni helio gracie.

peace

Offline jazhombie

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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2006, 02:23:04 AM »
i think to be influenced with jazz music, one has to listen to records and tke it as a religious ritual... i mean we should concentrate on every details on wat the record usually portray or played by an artist... we have our own originality, we only need, basically, be first influenced by common cliches, then after concntrate on our own technical originality... what comes on behalf of our own ability will depend on other's judgement if we fit in to, mainstream jazz, trad, fused, blue side of jazz... but remember sometimes what we do, that seemed to be enigmatic or eccentric sometimes gives us genuinity, and sometimes we don't focus on that, and that's when our crisis' begin...

learn, absorb- what will come out...is your own originality... same as coltrane's...

Offline nardski

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ahhh......
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2006, 02:31:42 PM »
think i understand your question..you said you know the scales, modes etc... and a little bit of theory.. ok yun but when you solo it doesnt sound jazz...("jazz feel") i had the same problem before(galing din kc ako sa rock) until a sax player & a trumpet player taught me the "jazz feel" meaning the triplet feel(kasama na din dun yung triplet tie notes)

ex:   sa 4/4 na time signature meron kang walo na eight notes
        {B = 1 eight note}  { ^ = accent }  {b = imaginary note}

sa rock or pop ganito ang normal na pag basa sa music sheet:

     4
     4     B   B             B   B             B  B              B  B
            1   and          2   and          3  and           4  and

sa jazz(swing & Bop) ang pag basa dito ay triplets with accent sa "up" beat or the next note after the down beat:(ang tawag dito ay triplet tie notes)

      4
      4     B  b   B           B  b  B        B  b  B        B  b  B
             1  *   ^           2  *  ^        3  *  ^        4  *  ^

note: remember na yung accent ay lagi sa "up" beat subukan mo ito.....pag walang accent sa up beat at hindi triplet tie ang pag tugtog mo sa mga notes ay hindi mag tutunog jazz yung iyong solo... ewan ko nalang pag hindi nag tunog jazz yung solo mo.. :D gud luck brad!

Offline nardski

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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2006, 02:43:49 PM »
sorry dun sa spacing ng mga BB nag mukha tuloy malabo yung pag explain ko.. anyway yung 4/4 dun yung time signature sorry ulit.. :(

Offline progressive_pilipinas

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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2006, 07:05:31 PM »
Quote from: nardski
think i understand your question..you said you know the scales, modes etc... and a little bit of theory.. ok yun but when you solo it doesnt sound jazz...("jazz feel") i had the same problem before(galing din kc ako sa rock) until a sax player & a trumpet player taught me the "jazz feel" meaning the triplet feel(kasama na din dun yung triplet tie notes)

ex:   sa 4/4 na time signature meron kang walo na eight notes
        {B = 1 eight note}  { ^ = accent }  {b = imaginary note}

sa rock or pop ganito ang normal na pag basa sa music sheet:

     4
     4     B   B             B   B             B  B              B  B
            1   and          2   and          3  and           4  and

sa jazz(swing & Bop) ang pag basa dito ay triplets with accent sa "up" beat or the next note after the down beat:(ang tawag dito ay triplet tie notes)

      4
      4     B  b   B           B  b  B        B  b  B        B  b  B
             1  *   ^           2  *  ^        3  *  ^        4  *  ^

note: remember na yung accent ay lagi sa "up" beat subukan mo ito.....pag walang accent sa up beat at hindi triplet tie ang pag tugtog mo sa mga notes ay hindi mag tutunog jazz yung iyong solo... ewan ko nalang pag hindi nag tunog jazz yung solo mo.. :D gud luck brad!


hahaha! oo, bro, sinusubukan ko na tong ganitong feel, hehe, galing nga, mejo nag iimprove na ko simula nung first time na ginawa ko tong thread na to.. at ito pa, walang akong tigil sa pagkinig ng bossa. ahahaha.. galing kakatuwa!

mejo nakukuha ko na yung feel sa siste ko, kailngan talaga nasa utak at puso eh, kay angayon sobrang ingat ako sa pinapakinggan o pinapasok na musik sa utak ko, hehe

@mahavishnu.

yeah,  masaya talaga tumugtog ng bossa, parang ang saya saya ng mundo ko, ang peaceful, hehe,  :)
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Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2006, 07:56:46 PM »
bossa? eto ka.. puting buhangin, asul na dagat, nylon na gitara, malamig na serbesa, nasa duyan ka pa. samahan mo pa ng girl from ipanema na pumaparada sa dalampasigan... bossa.

Offline psychic_sushi

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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2006, 09:42:24 AM »
Quote from: mahavishnu
bossa? eto ka.. puting buhangin, asul na dagat, nylon na gitara, malamig na serbesa, nasa duyan ka pa. samahan mo pa ng girl from ipanema na pumaparada sa dalampasigan... bossa.


you're the bossa ;) heheheh

i get hungry when i listen to bossa. and i think of the same stuff, with brazilian bikini models strolling on the beach...
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn

Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2006, 12:12:32 PM »
Quote from: psychic_sushi
Quote from: mahavishnu
bossa? eto ka.. puting buhangin, asul na dagat, nylon na gitara, malamig na serbesa, nasa duyan ka pa. samahan mo pa ng girl from ipanema na pumaparada sa dalampasigan... bossa.


you're the bossa ;) heheheh

i get hungry when i listen to bossa. and i think of the same stuff, with brazilian bikini models strolling on the beach...


hehe hungry? hungry for those edible bikinis?  8)

Offline projectoobe

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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2006, 03:01:25 AM »
hey guys i suggest you check out roberto baden powell, hes one of the proponents of brazilian and classical music as well. also luiz bonfa, and one of the first pinoys to do bossa(not really sure), bong penera ("penyera" enye dapat). as for singers, check out Ellis Regina, shes got that sexy throaty voice, amazing

Offline jazzbo

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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2006, 09:06:27 AM »
Funny, I think its only in the Philippines were the word "Bossa" is used as a form of music. Everywhere else it was referred to as Bossa Nova ("the new beat" I think) which dates back to the 60's ... and ends there. Must be the hyperactive imagination of Sitti's handlers that titled her pop album "Cafe Bossa" (hardly any jazz to speak of in that album).

The term dates back to the early 60's sessions between guitarist Joao Gilberto and saxophonist Stan Getz. Crossed over into pop because of one vocal by Joao's then-wife Astrud Gilberto on "Girl from Ipanema". Astrud has a big career after that. The other big proponent of bossa nova was Sergio Mendes and the Brasil '66. Try downloading songs from Astrud Gilberto and Sergio Mendes during this period (as well as Stan Getz) for a flavor of what the real Bossa Nova sounded.

Bossa Nova itself is rarely used as a term anymore, or probably is in a retro sense. When Bong Penera put up Batucada in the 70's, he referred to his music as "samba". The album to get (if you can find it) is the first Bong Penera album that was relesed on the indie label Penny Rose Record (named after his mom). It was re-released on CD recently, I've seen a few copies in the SM record bars. Again that album has more Brazillian authenticity than Sitti.

But if you're into Brazillian chords and rhythms, check out all the music that has come out since then from that country and totally forget Sitti. I would recommend the recordings of Airto and Flora Purim (for their jazz influences - remember this couple worked with Chick Corea). For composition and arranging, Antonio Carlos Jobim. For the local scene, I'd recommend Nyco Maca who has a great understanding of Brazillian music (and sings in Portugese too).

Offline progressive_pilipinas

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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2006, 09:50:53 AM »
haha.. sitti.   :lol:
The fretboard is a vast universe.

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