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Author Topic: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION  (Read 26586 times)

Offline boogsy

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2009, 03:24:28 AM »
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 03:25:37 AM by boogsy »
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Offline firemodel55

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2009, 05:53:31 AM »
ask lang, i thought you said before, in other threads here in GC, that mr baker said that "they will never know how the guitar will sound until it is finished"

now its "A knowledgeable person once told me that a great luthier who makes great sounding guitars knows when to stop before completing a guitar.  These people have the wisdom to realize that it will not sound great."

im just asking because it seems to contradict the other statement..


Let me clarify... With regards to the first statement, it is truly so that you can never be completely sure or know the character of the guitar until it is finished.  You can more or less accurately deduce its timbre but not its character when it is finished.   I believe all the top luthiers subscribe to this and thats why the still have some duds. 

With regards to the 2nd statement, this was a statement of Mr. Cliff Cultreri when I asked what was the one defining factor for gifted luthiers who could build character and not only timbre into guitars.  This simply means that gifted luthiers have a higher rate of success of building in character but does not necessarily mean that they can build character into 100% of their guitars.

Offline abyssinianson

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 06:01:45 AM »
just curious bro---and this is an honest to goodness question.
with all these amazing foreign guitar makers that we admire, do you think there are "bad eggs" in their production as well despite their luthier-prowess?  you have tried a lot i suppose.  are there such or everything is just that good?
the answer is: yes.
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Offline firemodel55

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 06:57:16 AM »
I would like to illustrate how I would go about selecting a great sounding guitar locally...  Take note that I can select but NOT assure that it would be the best ever produced by that Specific manufacturer.  I have done this twice -- one for myself and one for my brother in law.

"Selecting a Fender American Standard Strat -- Manila Limitations"

1. EXPOSURE & EARS -- Yup.  A year after I met Arie Hippolito in 1995 I think.  He taught me what guitars with character sounded like.  In fact, that same guitar which he used to demonstrate character to me is now considered retired in comparison to my SPECIFIC Suhr Strat.  It was nightmare for me because I ended up getting rid of all my signature ESP Custom Shops, Ibanez Signature MIJ Guitars and sprinklings of Gibson USA and Hamer USA.  I had to force rank 14 guitars based on character all at the same time. And when I finished my force ranking, I also asked Arie Hippolito and Lito Bote to force rank my guitars not knowing that I already had forced rank them.  And surprise surprise, they also had the same force rank!!!  I ended up just keeping one ESP which the three of us agreed had the best character of the fourteen -- this was the most depressing day of my life because I had to let go of a bunch of great looking guitars.

As with lots of people in this forum, Tom Lee remains to be the most convenient destination to be exposed with the high end USA guitars and some shops in Singapore.  But it was in NEW YORK two years ago that I really got taught and whipped by Dan Chelsea and G.E. Smith.  Out of their vintage 50s Gibsons, they selected one outstanding beat up Gold Top 54 to demonstrate to me 'TONE' and they clearly could define it.  On top of that, the New York Salesmen from other stores ( I think I spent about 4 full days in New York to check out the guitar shops and test and another full day in Charleys Houston -- SRV anyone?)  just allowed me to select, get and play their high end Fender Custom Shops, Gibson Custom Shops, PRS and anything else priced US$3,000 and above.

2. WIDE SELECTION -- It was wide enough at the barest minimum but I wished that Yupangco hard ordered 50 USA made Fenders with some Custom Shops sprinkled in.  So, the first time around, I could choose from around a dozen American Standards plus another dozen American made signatures plus one ugly sounding Stagemaster Custom Shop which has been there since time in memorial.  By the way, I did my selection on the second or third day that the new batch had arrived at Buendia.  So, I had the first draw on the whole deck.  I had selected an excellent sounding black Amercian Standard which I had reviewed already and is now gone because the Suhr is just miles away from it.  So too with the new batch that arrived two months ago.  I was first in line before the guitars were distributed to other branches.

3. THE ONES WHO REALLY KNOW CAN DISTINGUISH TONE FROM THOSE THAT JUST LOOK GREAT - This is the most difficult part because I did not want a black American Standard Strat.  I wanted the colors on the Signature Claptons and Eric Johnsons available at that time and hell I wanted it to be special and not just an American Standard but wala talaga.  Talo po ang mga signature ng plain old American Standard sa character for that specific batch of arrivals.  I also preferred the other american standards in color.  In my 2nd batch recently, the first one I picked was a candy apple red pero patay ang tunog.  I was so disappointed because ang pinakagusto ko ay candy apple red. In the end, I picked a sienna red burst or something colored American Standard which I hated in color because I was embarassed to recommend something to my brother in law that would sound like crap.  Believe me, it was the last color I would choose but the sound was just amazing for a Fender.  It even had a sister guitar of the same color that sounded dead.

4. THEY HAVE BETTER AMPS AND EFFECTS - At the minimum, Yupangco had the Fender Twin Reverb and a Fender Prosonic to test the guitars on.  I really test on the clean channel because I spend 90% of my time on the overdrive channels of amps and that really can make guitars sound good.  But character really comes out clearly on clean channels and a Fender Twin Reverb is one stiff clean channel that has to be pushed to make things come out and if a guitar can make it sound beautiful specially on low volume then we have toenful guitar.

5) MORE HONEST (GENERALLY) - The salesman was good enough to keep handing me the guitars and he was not trying to push any particular guitar.  He immediately knew that I knew what I was looking for. 

If anyone wants to challenge my Strat Selection under these circumstances, the Strat I picked for my brother in law is still with him.  And I will guarantee that it will flat out beat 90-95% of all Fender Strats including custom shops and vintage fender strats.  AND this is the painful part, its all stock with 2009 specifications.  Nothing has been changed.  But I just wanted to point out the hassle and the effort of going thru such a process is just not that worth it because I still have an amazing Suhr Strat which I did not select that still beats my brother in law's American Standard.  Also, the most difficult part is selecting a guitar without a benchmark to compare character to.  I purposely did not bring the Suhr to compare because I knew that I would not be able to select versus such a high standard.  I did not want to disappoint my brother in law because we had gone thru the same exercise in Tom Lee with the available Strats there around 8 months past.  He really wanted to buy an American Standard Strat that moment.  Lucky for me that there was one great sounding Fender or I would have been forced to choose something mediocre from the current batch.

Offline dullFingers

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 08:39:39 AM »
nice thread. unfortunately, in most cases here in the Philippines, people (including me) would choose their guitar based on their budget and aesthetics. :-D



Offline vhunter

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2009, 01:35:26 AM »
My toneful guitar selection :D



BTW my fender strat kills too and its not boutique. :D but it is CS

Offline pitongjerome

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2009, 07:18:56 AM »
My toneful guitar selection :D



BTW my fender strat kills too and its not boutique. :D but it is CS

the colors look pretty close to each other.. all are pretty!
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2009, 07:42:52 AM »
My toneful guitar selection :D



BTW my fender strat kills too and its not boutique. :D but it is CS

very very beautiful,  :-)

Offline pitongjerome

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2009, 09:05:45 AM »
My toneful guitar selection :D



BTW my fender strat kills too and its not boutique. :D but it is CS

are these magical?
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline AkelleFusion

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2009, 09:34:02 AM »
how can you  go wrong with gustavssons, a guthrie suhr, etc?

Offline randymarsh

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2009, 09:37:54 AM »
My toneful guitar selection :D



BTW my fender strat kills too and its not boutique. :D but it is CS

wow!!! i love the suhr in this photo.
nuno : n4 2.0 n4esa, n4vintage, n4 silver sparkle, n5, n6, n7, n8esa
etc : yjm, axis, jp6, jpxi, jp12, jp13, lp 58 vos, lp 57 ri, lp standard, lp trad, am strat, am tele deluxe, jem7v, uv777, rg prestige, j custom, deluxe reverb, vai legacy, jcm900, axefx

Offline nathanmanansala

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2009, 06:04:42 PM »
My toneful guitar selection :D



BTW my fender strat kills too and its not boutique. :D but it is CS
[sourgraping]bah. they look pretty. they probably sound like ass.[/sourgraping]

Offline randymarsh

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2009, 06:46:38 PM »
from a distance parang umaapoy yung sofa  :lol:
nuno : n4 2.0 n4esa, n4vintage, n4 silver sparkle, n5, n6, n7, n8esa
etc : yjm, axis, jp6, jpxi, jp12, jp13, lp 58 vos, lp 57 ri, lp standard, lp trad, am strat, am tele deluxe, jem7v, uv777, rg prestige, j custom, deluxe reverb, vai legacy, jcm900, axefx

Offline jopangan

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2009, 10:47:05 PM »
give me 1 one of those!  8-)

Offline gandydancer123

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 04:07:16 PM »
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Offline vittobrat

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2013, 06:20:59 PM »
wow!!! i love the suhr in this photo.

Sir, iniligpit ko po lahat ng gitara ko sa hiya!!!

ang luffffeeettt nito!!!!

idol!!!!
The fear of death.
Make the climb; without the rope.
Then fear will find you again.

Offline Pakantone

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2013, 04:09:10 AM »
What guitar brand has the highest probability of getting a good sounding one?

Offline firemodel55

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2013, 06:39:04 AM »
What guitar brand has the highest probability of getting a good sounding one?

Personally, I think its Gil Yaron.

Offline Pakantone

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2013, 11:44:24 AM »
Personally, I think its Gil Yaron.
How about in the non boutique ones.?

Offline firemodel55

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2013, 03:12:15 PM »
How about in the non boutique ones.?

None have an advantage among the non boutique ones.

Offline cfrancisco

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2013, 08:44:06 PM »



It all boils down to wood selectiion/combination.  Yung article sa link has a lot of good info on tone wood and how it contributes to resonance at overall tone ng guitar.   

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm


Now, as far as putting boutique guitars up on a pedestal, I think it's BS.  You can find superb instruments at non boutique prices.





So I have got some free time for a bunch posts in philmusic:

DISCLAIMER: I LET THE AMERICANS DO THE SELECTION FOR ME...

BECAUSE:

1) EXPOSURE & EARS -- I mean who grew up with those great sounding tones on records and actually heard them in person?-- the Americans of course.  Sinong local luthier dito ang na-train ng Fender Custom Shop as master craftsman?  Mayroon na ba ditong naka-trabaho ni Clapton or Robben Ford?
2) WIDE SELECTION -- As much as stores in the U.S.A. are realy stocked with high end and premium stuff.  I believe the guy at the factory who does the Q.A. is in a better position to select -- bar none.  Thats why I go directly to Gene Baker and Suhr the guys to choose for me because they see and hear and feel 100% of what comes out.  Believe me, going thru the high end stuff at Mannys New York was so tiring to find one exceptional sounding Suhr that beat all the other brands.  I must have tested at least around 100 high end guitars across Mannys, Ludlow, 30th street Guitars, Chelsea, Umanovs, Rudys... I think I found around 4 that were really exceptional.  Mannys just left me alone to test as many guitars as I could kasi alam naman nila kung tone talaga hanap mo.  And it gets to a point that US$5,000 - US$10,000 dollar Gibsons, Fenders, PRS and even Dean (yup those pointy shapes that are made in the USA can cost as much) sound bad that it makes you think that you are shopping at JB Music on a higher level.
3) THE ONES WHO REALLY KNOW CAN DISTINGUISH TONE FROM THOSE THAT JUST LOOK GREAT -- they don't let their personal bias get the better of them but rather they use their ears.  In contrast, we have the Max Rufo and Jon Elegee camp who put a priority on looks and affordability more than great tone and thats just fine too as long as they get what they want.  By the way, if you are into the custom things, I don't think you have a more affordable choice than the two of them -- Custom Prices in U.S.A are just plain not affordable for a great majority.  A knowledgeable person once told me that a great luthier who makes great sounding guitars knows when to stop before completing a guitar.  These people have the wisdom to realize that it will not sound great.  A lot of luthiers just continue to finish the custom order because either they need the dough or they simply cannot hear or have the wisdom to know that it will sound bad at an intermediary step of the construction.  In short, kung na-string na lang nila malalaman that it sounds bad.
4) THEY HAVE BETTER AMPS AND EFFECTS -- they can pinpoint a really magical guitar more easily because their amp standard is way way better than anything we have here (and that includes me).  How many of you have more guitars than amps here?  I rest my case.
5) MORE HONEST (GENERALLY) -- they can discern if you are into tone and seem to be really excited when they find out that you can hear it because they suddenly offer you something they preselected from a batch hidden in the backroom.  Hindi kagaya dito, lahat ng stock sasabihan kanya kanya lang. 

Offline cfrancisco

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2013, 08:56:10 PM »
May question pala ako Firemodel.  Curious lang, sinong mga gitarista pinoy or american and maganda yung tone para sayo?

Offline firemodel55

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2013, 07:32:27 AM »


It all boils down to wood selectiion/combination.  Yung article sa link has a lot of good info on tone wood and how it contributes to resonance at overall tone ng guitar.   

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm


(So you think there is plenty of good sounding wood eh?  If that was true -- bakit ang napaka daming panget na tunog na vintage na gitara?  Conversely, if the wood used today is less 'toneful' than the wood used before then there is a greater amount of bad sounding guitars now more than ever given the larger production volume.  By the way, you can have a resonant guitar but still have it sound dead and uninspiring.)

Now, as far as putting boutique guitars up on a pedestal, I think it's BS.  You can find superb instruments at non boutique prices.

(BS to your BS.  The question was about LARGER chances of finding a great sounding guitar on a certain line.  Since the great and legit boutique guys take more time in care and selection of wood, it follows that they have a larger chance than production line branded guitars to construct a great sounding electric guitar.  That being said, there are great sounding production line guitars too but not as frequent in terms of % tried as the ones coming from boutique lines.)

Offline firemodel55

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2013, 07:36:06 AM »
May question pala ako Firemodel.  Curious lang, sinong mga gitarista pinoy or american and maganda yung tone para sayo?

Never thought about it.  I just listen more to their song writing.  In terms of tone, I like the way my gear sounds.  Which definitely sounds better than any CD.  So, I would not really know until I listen to ALL of them in a small club setting.

Offline cfrancisco

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Re: TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2013, 10:26:03 AM »
Never thought about it.  I just listen more to their song writing.  In terms of tone, I like the way my gear sounds.  Which definitely sounds better than any CD.  So, I would not really know until I listen to ALL of them in a small club setting.

Really? So, walang may magandang tone para sa inyo?  Example, I like guthrie govan, pero his tone is terible. Manipis sa lahat ng recordings nya.  Eto pa, bakit pareho yung tunog nya mapa charvel, suhr, prs, or fender?