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Author Topic: DEC or Harmonic Converger for MultiFx(Reviews/Questions/Users Experiences)  (Read 63548 times)

Offline rogeryu

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Hi Jobet  :-) howdy, how's going with your passive design.... Impedence is one of your issue there  :|
I'll give you one tip use wah inductor 500mh or higher more.... buffering is also one issue kaibigan.

Offline kurtcobainer

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PM sent sir rogeryu.

Offline xelalien

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very informative and helpful! :) sana makasubok ako ng ganito someday.

Offline sireus

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very informative and helpful! :) sana makasubok ako ng ganito someday.

master neil,, very effective yan! sobrang astig sa result..

Offline BAMF

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Hi Jobet  :-) howdy, how's going with your passive design.... Impedence is one of your issue there  :|
I'll give you one tip use wah inductor 500mh or higher more.... buffering is also one issue kaibigan.

Buffering is easy. Dami ko FET dito. But lowering the output impedance of the the thing is really the point to the point where it "tone sucks" from the low impedance loading down the multis output.

Nag-ready na ko ng inductor. I have a single coil pickup here na di na ginagamit, tinanggal ko na yung magnet. Di na kelangan ng series resistor kasi nasa 5k na DC resistance neto. Yung 250k na pot and .033 uF na cap na lang to serve as a passive tone contro and idadagdag. :-D Parang yung "pickup simulator" ni RG Keen, shares the same frequency curves as the HC.

Di ko lang naupuan agad kasi I was working on Parker fly electronics rebuild. :-D. Madugo pala 'to. Pero natapos na din.


Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633


Offline rogeryu

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Buffering is easy. Dami ko FET dito. But lowering the output impedance of the the thing is really the point to the point where it "tone sucks" from the low impedance loading down the multis output.

Nag-ready na ko ng inductor. I have a single coil pickup here na di na ginagamit, tinanggal ko na yung magnet. Di na kelangan ng series resistor kasi nasa 5k na DC resistance neto. Yung 250k na pot and .033 uF na cap na lang to serve as a passive tone contro and idadagdag. :-D Parang yung "pickup simulator" ni RG Keen, shares the same frequency curves as the HC.

Di ko lang naupuan agad kasi I was working on Parker fly electronics rebuild. :-D. Madugo pala 'to. Pero natapos na din.




  :roll:

Offline BAMF

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Hey roger, I finished the passive unit (again). All I can say is...IT FRIKKIN WORKS !!!

I mean, it was "ok" with the simple R-C network, but it sounded kinda dull. Putting the inductor in made all the difference. The sound is still complex and rich even if the fizz is killed.



I tried it on my Zoom G2 kanina. Oks na oks !



Nice thing about it being passive is no power or batteries to mess with and it's practically maintenance free. Volume drop is insignificant. It appears that inserting those series resistances measured in k's is nothing when the input impedance of your guitar amp is in the order of Megohms.

Di ko lang napa-andar ang Behringer XVamp ko which is supposed to be the real guinea pig kasi di magkasya yung mga crown plugs ng ac adaptor ko sa VAC in nya.

Reklamo ko lang sa setup na to...iba-iba ang sweet spot ng knob habang nag-iiba ang patch...parang kelangan mo tumuwad to optimize the sound when you change the patch. Sabagay, depends lang naman gaano ka-anal sa tunog. Pero for all practical purposes, oks na oks na ko.

Well...thanks dude for pointing me in the right direction and Dave, thanks for calling my attention to this thread :-D. You guys rock !
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline rogeryu

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Sana Jobet we could compare it with Harmonic Converger  :-)
Both passive to passive unit kasi.....
Sound clip naman diyan kaibigan, yon Fizz ON and OFF  :wink:



Offline BAMF

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Sana Jobet we could compare it with Harmonic Converger  :-)
Both passive to passive unit kasi.....
Sound clip naman diyan kaibigan, yon Fizz ON and OFF  :wink:



Sige gabi na kasi nung matapos ko e.  I'll get to it soon.
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline Super BisDak

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^great! we'll look forward on the clips.  :-)
dealt: faceless,fraudulentzodiac,verve,egbdf,Saturn/Return,bdc3,dk_ouano,gemboy,studiowan,Slingky,PLESIM,asti21,sidlead66,CIERRAE,ungas123,lippy,cocojam,jolam1431,putchazta_46,dannygatton,lynshumalmsteen,GslashG,atomo,uchihadarwin,mzik_man,Diamond_Don&etc

Offline rogeryu

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 :roll:

Heh heehh qoute on my own post  :lol:

Sir Jobet alam niyo ba kung bakit nag roll eye comment ako last post.....maybe you meant Jack Orman not RG keen? Baka naman mayroon si RG Keen di ko rin alam ha.

Ginawa ko na yan nuon AMZ passive schem Pickup Simulator (Breadboard lng PO) thats why I told you the frequency curve maybe the same or even exactly na exactly but the response will not. Sir please dont' and not take this comment of mine or that i'm saying your experiment is failure ha....Coz I really admire your electronic talent/skills.

Here's tha AMZ pickup simulator (passive) that i experimented, maybe your's differrent.....

http://www.muzique.com/lab/pickups.htm

I'm patiently waiting for your clip maybe you got the magic touch....parang kanta yon huh!!!
Yooooouuuuuu got....    the maaaaagic touch uhm umhmmm uhm uhm...


I'll give you a very simple strum clip with DEC on and then OFF you'll hear the FIZZ sizzling plate (hi hi) then ON at the last portion again to eliminate the FIZZ or to me its digital aliasing......

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6983961

BTW have you notice any guitar changes in timbre or tone? Just cleaning it up but when I set the knob frequency to position where my ear I want....IT ENHANCES the TONE akin to ANALOG sound and set that and never ever ever change its position LIKE Harmonic Converger :) its a set and forget thing kaibigan.

Monitor it with closed ear headphone mas maganda 32ohm headphone siya. and welcome to the darkside of multiFX sabi nga ni comrade Garret :)

I really wish that you can visit me with some of your freind and I WILL skip work kahit mag absent nalng me para sa yo Sir Jobet and bring also your oscilloscope instrument and A/B box if you can....Sayang HARMONIC CONVERGER is here in the Philippines :) and I'm selling it from someone abroad who's interested.....coz its very steep for local boys to buy it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 06:00:32 AM by rogeryu »

Offline accento24

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I have always been consulting sir jobet regarding how to enhance and get the tone that I want, and now that he posted a comment confirming that the HC/DEC concept works, my belief on this heightened!!!

last week i got my DEC from sir roger but I just had it tested and used in our gig last saturday, and I can also say that IT WORKS!!!! i followed sir Roger's instructions, set up my Boss GT-8 and the DEC, and during our gig, when I ran a solo on my guitar...WOW!!!! AYUN NA!!!! even my bandmates were struck with what they were hearing...I cant describe it, it was like it taking away a blanket from the speaker and letting it breathe...the "tubey" sound is noticeable and it brought the sound up front, parang "in your face!!!" talaga...

Thanks to sir roger for saving my failing relationship with my Boss GT-8 that I used to hate, now i enjoy exploring and using it...and sir jobet, ano bago natin? update mko ha!!!

The DEC is really a wonder and having it would give you no regrets...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 09:17:55 AM by accento24 »

Offline sireus

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welcome to the DEC club comrade!!! :-D   honeymoon period nanaman nyan with gt8!!

Offline BAMF

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:-D.

True, if you randomly select an inductor most likely you won't have exactly the same curve as the HC/DEC.

That's why I kept adjusting the value of the cap until I got one that's just right.

I already made clips. Wait lang let me charge my mp3 player lang (which I used as a USB flashdisk). Then I'll post them na.
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline BAMF

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Crapola. Ayaw basahin ng soundclick ang mp3. I think I encoded at 192kbps. Forgot that they can only take 128 kbps. Ngek.

Di bale pagbalik sa shop this afternoon, I'll re-encode.
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline accento24

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thanks sir sireus!!!

Offline BAMF

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Heh heehh qoute on my own post  :lol:

Sir Jobet alam niyo ba kung bakit nag roll eye comment ako last post.....maybe you meant Jack Orman not RG keen? Baka naman mayroon si RG Keen di ko rin alam ha.

Ginawa ko na yan nuon AMZ passive schem Pickup Simulator (Breadboard lng PO) thats why I told you the frequency curve maybe the same or even exactly na exactly but the response will not. Sir please dont' and not take this comment of mine or that i'm saying your experiment is failure ha....Coz I really admire your electronic talent/skills.

Here's tha AMZ pickup simulator (passive) that i experimented, maybe your's differrent.....

http://www.muzique.com/lab/pickups.htm

I'm patiently waiting for your clip maybe you got the magic touch....parang kanta yon huh!!!
Yooooouuuuuu got....    the maaaaagic touch uhm umhmmm uhm uhm...


I'll give you a very simple strum clip with DEC on and then OFF you'll hear the FIZZ sizzling plate (hi hi) then ON at the last portion again to eliminate the FIZZ or to me its digital aliasing......

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6983961

BTW have you notice any guitar changes in timbre or tone? Just cleaning it up but when I set the knob frequency to position where my ear I want....IT ENHANCES the TONE akin to ANALOG sound and set that and never ever ever change its position LIKE Harmonic Converger :) its a set and forget thing kaibigan.

Monitor it with closed ear headphone mas maganda 32ohm headphone siya. and welcome to the darkside of multiFX sabi nga ni comrade Garret :)

I really wish that you can visit me with some of your freind and I WILL skip work kahit mag absent nalng me para sa yo Sir Jobet and bring also your oscilloscope instrument and A/B box if you can....Sayang HARMONIC CONVERGER is here in the Philippines :) and I'm selling it from someone abroad who's interested.....coz its very steep for local boys to buy it.


Nakupo. My oscilloscope is old school and its quite heavy. Tapos, I can't lug my recording studio anywhere :-D. It will have to be at the shop/studio. Sagot ko na beer.

Don't worry, I won't make any other unit except this one, for myself lang to. Even if I make the active implementation...which most likely hindi na din...for myself lang din.

Since it was you that brought the DEC/HC concept here to the Philippines, this is all you, man ! :-) . Na-curious lang ako and I learned a lot after you guys sent me on my way.

Pero wait din for the clips. Marami akong insights na nakuha just by using the Zoom G2. And I put on a new AC jack on the Behringer XVAmp...this is where talagang magsa-shine ang mga device na ganito kasi that thing is just so SUCKY I almost threw it away in disgust. Mantakin mo nga naman...it has a role to play in my learning pa pala. Buti di ko naitapon.
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline luin_theblue

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No problem BAMF.

Offline BAMF

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Alright here we go. While waiting for the clip to upload, I'll write up the notes.

But first, some notes on the soundclip :

1. The multi is a modified Zoom G2. It already has fizz-mitigation mods on it, so for this experiment, I used Factory Preset 30, but I maxxed out the treble and gain (the two main causes of digital fizz). Please note, I do not operate my multi like this :-D.

2. Setup is as follows : RJ PRS guitar->Zoom G2-> Passive HC workalike-> Line6 Pod2.0 (set on clean)-> Recording computer.

3. The cap I settled for here is a .022uF. I could have gone for .047 but it takes the max effect to "dull". :-D. By the way, this is a simple RLC filter with the knee set at 5.6kHz. It cannot possibly match the sharp cutoff of a 2nd order Butterworth filter.

4. There is a volume drop when the device is engaged. Passive eh. On the soundclips this has been compensated for so that the reduction in "kuliglig" sound can be heard and appreciated.

5. The clip has four instances. First riff is without the device. Second is with the device in, but on full open (no cut). Third clip is cut-engaged, but tuned to a sweet spot. Fourth riff is full cut.

So here it is :

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9777967

Learning notes :
1. Again, it will not compete with a 2nd order butterworth active filter. Implementing that on a passive device will result in massive insertion loss. Not good.
2. There is still some kuliglig sound left. But please note, I set the gain of my multi to max treble and max gain for this soundclip. Under normal circumstances (the patches I actually use), there is a sweet spot that can be dialed that's "just right".
3. The cap can be varied from .005uf- .01-.022 and .047. I settled for the .022uF. Different degrees of depth and "cut" can be achieved by changing these out. Series pot was set at 500k.

4. Ah, meron pa pala. Patch 30 does not have cabsim. Turning on the cabsim will increase the kuliglig reduction. Ditto with passing the signal into a real amp and speaker, because the usual high rolloff of a guitar speaker is 5kHz which is quite in line with the action of the device. Meaning, a speaker will actually assist in the reduction of the kuliglig. Ditto if your runninig through a closed back cabinet.

Again, thanks for showing me this.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 02:47:02 PM by BAMF »
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline BAMF

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Kwento pa.

I got interested in this for recording studio purposes.

Back in 2007 when we were recording with starfugger (Hazel), when I was unpacking my gear and she saw my multi (a Zoom 505-II) she said "ayyyy...."

I was perplexed and asked her why. She said "that thing has a digital noise that cannot be EQ'ed out". I'm sure she tried using Waves or what not.

When I got my own studio, I carried the same aversion to multis that Hazel had. When a client would unpack a multi I go "eeek!!!!".

Of course things have gotten better since the Zoom 505. I'm very happy with my Pod 2.0. And sometimes I still use Amplitube. With the Pod, the thought of selling my tube amps has crossed my mind. Senti na lang kaya hindi coz I worked for weeks on end on each one of them. But wag. Life does not end at the studio :-D

But this HC makes putok my "thang" for digital multis. 

So there. Yan lang po. BAMF signing out.
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline Gerrit

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I have always been consulting sir jobet regarding how to enhance and get the tone that I want, and now that he posted a comment confirming that the HC/DEC concept works, my belief on this heightened!!!

last week i got my DEC from sir roger but I just had it tested and used in our gig last saturday, and I can also say that IT WORKS!!!! i followed sir Roger's instructions, set up my Boss GT-8 and the DEC, and during our gig, when I ran a solo on my guitar...WOW!!!! AYUN NA!!!! even my bandmates were struck with what they were hearing...I cant describe it, it was like it taking away a blanket from the speaker and letting it breathe...the "tubey" sound is noticeable and it brought the sound up front, parang "in your face!!!" talaga...

Thanks to sir roger for saving my failing relationship with my Boss GT-8 that I used to hate, now i enjoy exploring and using it...and sir jobet, ano bago natin? update mko ha!!!

The DEC is really a wonder and having it would give you no regrets...

Welcome to the darkside of multifx.  Keep on rockin' bro

Offline accento24

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thanks sir gerrit!!!

busy ata si sir roger ah, di pa uli nagpaparamdam dito...

Offline rogeryu

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thanks sir gerrit!!!

busy ata si sir roger ah, di pa uli nagpaparamdam dito...

 :lol: busy comrade.... may order kasi eh......



Bagay at ganda ng HC with your GT8 both black cool 8-)



Input and output niya then yong black hole inside..dun ang kanyang potentiometer... HC include flat wood stick like Flat screw driver to adjust once yong potentiometer into your taste ayon then set and forget na...
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:32:52 AM by rogeryu »

Offline rogeryu

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Hey guys,
Anyone care to buy my Harmonic Converger, it a passive unit no need for battery or power supply bagay na bagay sa GT8 or any Black MULTIfx  :-) Just in case PM me..... Cool ito ask accento24 and it will enhance your MultiFX into new superb another dimension and even can use it with your other multifx, its a good investment and a Pandora Box :mrgreen:

Roger

Offline rogeryu

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Phew!!! buti nlng election kahapon, Sat halfday, Sun almost the whole day then also yesterday....casing it up.... ONE unit is available. Hirap mag DIY....same as building and making my Dr. Boogey, Tubescreamer, Ross compressor, Rebote echo, MXR envelop filter and my downward expander (noise gate) mas mahal pa if someone order it  :|