Smacking TUBE AMPS running clean with DIRT PEDALS

[jmreyes]

Is it still a wise investment to purchase a tube amp if you're just gonna run it clean and use a bunch of OD / Distortion pedals to achieve your dirty tone?

I'm starting to think it's more reasonable to purchase a solid state amp with a nice clean tone and use it as a pedal platform.

I'd really appreciate input from folks who think likewise as well as from hard-core-tube-amp-all-the-way people.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

[BAMF]

Is it still a wise investment to purchase a tube amp if you're just gonna run it clean and use a bunch of OD / Distortion pedals to achieve your dirty tone?

I'm starting to think it's more reasonable to purchase a solid state amp with a nice clean tone and use it as a pedal platform.

I'd really appreciate input from folks who think likewise as well as from hard-core-tube-amp-all-the-way people.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

Iba. Next level na yun, kumbaga and IMHO. You don't start a guitar journey with tube amps agad (again IMHO).  But yeah, there are merits to playing through an SS amp and get your tone from your pedals.

Parang wine appreciation yan. You start with the cheap table wines then as your taste and appreciation for the taste and aroma and even history upgrades, so you also do with your wine acquisitions. Same it is with tone and gear.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.

[kurtseth]

i've had all three types of amp
solid state hybrid tube amps and most recently a pure tube amp.

to be honest i found the tube amp sweeter sounding.. and i've found that ommppphhh factor that i was looking for.
i rarely plug in to my vox amp (vox ad50vt)

i found my cub 10 really sweeter sounding...

with pedals and such the amp sings

it is a wise investement if it would mean that you would find that tone in your head.


im still on my way there though im looking for that dumble tone (robben ford)
that could only be satisfied by a dumble or an ethos overdrive

or a zendrive

and there aint anything wrong with having a pedal setup plugged into a tube amp
nor a solid state amp

depends on what sounds pleasing to you.. since tone is subject to the ears of the person.

[blacktele]

Iba. Next level na yun, kumbaga and IMHO. You don't start a guitar journey with tube amps agad (again IMHO).  But yeah, there are merits to playing through an SS amp and get your tone from your pedals.

Parang wine appreciation yan. You start with the cheap table wines then as your taste and appreciation for the taste and aroma and even history upgrades, so you also do with your wine acquisitions. Same it is with tone and gear.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Nice one sir BAMF, it's like being a tone connoisseur.  

[juan_portnoy]

Nice one sir BAMF, it's like being a tone connoisseur.  

Yun! Tube-tasting, anyone?

http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php?topic=185430.0

http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php?topic=181734.0

[maxi_musikero]

Is it still a wise investment to purchase a tube amp if you're just gonna run it clean and use a bunch of OD / Distortion pedals to achieve your dirty tone?

I'm starting to think it's more reasonable to purchase a solid state amp with a nice clean tone and use it as a pedal platform.

i have been asking the same question and entertaining the same idea for quite some time now.  i'm gonna follow this thread.

i think the most basic question is:  is there a big difference between SS and tube amp clean tone, such that tube clean tone is still superior?  

this is because the basis for comparison will be clean tone only, since dirt and OD will come from the pedals.  i hope this question gets addressed specifically.  

[bryanarzaga]

Is it still a wise investment to purchase a tube amp if you're just gonna run it clean and use a bunch of OD / Distortion pedals to achieve your dirty tone?

I'm starting to think it's more reasonable to purchase a solid state amp with a nice clean tone and use it as a pedal platform.

I'd really appreciate input from folks who think likewise as well as from hard-core-tube-amp-all-the-way people.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

bai tubey amps daghan design variances, if i was on a budget and never cared what i buy(which i practice), then i'd choose my KLD over my blackstar and other amps, SS i can live with a marshall or roland jc120..

[juan_portnoy]

i have been asking the same question and entertaining the same idea for quite some time now.  i'm gonna follow this thread.

i think the most basic question is:  is there a big difference between SS and tube amp clean tone, such that tube clean tone is still superior?  

this is because the basis for comparison will be clean tone only, since dirt and OD will come from the pedals.  i hope this question gets addressed specifically.  

Could the difference be more about feel and response (i.e. sag, tubes getting hot) as well as odd and even harmonics? I've been asking the same question too and I'd best follow this thread as well 

[maxi_musikero]

Could the difference be more about feel and response (i.e. sag, tubes getting hot) as well as odd and even harmonics? I've been asking the same question too and I'd best follow this thread as well 

exactly...feel and response.  this should be something like a Vox SS vs. Vox tube or Fender SS vs. Fender tube.  tapos clean tone ang basis of comparison.  to keep the playing field as equal as possible, with the only difference is SS or tube. 

[bryanarzaga]

i have been asking the same question and entertaining the same idea for quite some time now.  i'm gonna follow this thread.

i think the most basic question is:  is there a big difference between SS and tube amp clean tone, such that tube clean tone is still superior?  

this is because the basis for comparison will be clean tone only, since dirt and OD will come from the pedals.  i hope this question gets addressed specifically.  

thats hard to do when you need an amp voiced designed similarly only that one is tube and one is SS, the best way to do is to go try one..like the roland bolt and roland jc not the same designed but both from roland, both have nice cleans but the bolt having less of a in your midrange, but both have less than desirable drive channels..

[siore]

I used to think you should only get your drive from the amp if it's all tube, but pedals provide flavor if you get so used to the amp's drive sound.  Pwede naman kahit ano, especially with good dirt boxes nowadays, depending on your mood.  Ex. Instead of dirt or OD running on clean or slightly driven tube amp platforms, imagine the guys relying on their distortion pedals and running their high-gain amps on clean.  Dati napapa-iling ako, but now I also understand.  Variety is the spice of life, and accumulating/flipping pedals is cheaper than collecting amps.  Now, if you go with a SS amp for its clean platform, would you also appreciate the drive sound you get from cranking it, should you feel the need to?

Anyway, if you wanna run pedals most of the time, I'd suggest you still go with tube amps, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with SS.  Tube amps would color the tone of your pedal, yes, but I still feel it should be a basic building block of your overall tone, and one should learn to work with it.  With SS amps, I feel the shift of tone more to the pedal side of things, losing the nuances, dynamics, and touch-connection I like in tube amps.  Even setting the tube amp on clean (ergo, down to the most sterile linear range of tube operation   ), there's still a bit of those characteristics, and gives you more when you crank things up.  So while I can get by with (and like!) a SS amp, it will sometimes leave me feeling like something's missing.

[bryanarzaga]

it will sometimes leave me feeling like something's missing.

And I dont know what it is...At all

Friends
(Check)
Money
(Check)
A well slept opposite sex
Guitar
(Check)
Microphone
(Check)

[turiguiliano]

Is it still a wise investment to purchase a tube amp if you're just gonna run it clean and use a bunch of OD / Distortion pedals to achieve your dirty tone?

Of course.

That's actually what I am always after. Plain clean. Dirt driven by pedals.

Best ones I got and let go are:
Carvin legacy - EL34 loaded but the first channel is just plain clean. I don't know what Phil (forum member here) did with it. And I rarely used the dirt channel. So it's basically a clean sounding amp for me.
Fender Quad Reverb housed in a twin reverb 2x12 combo cab. - Master volume. All cleans. Totally clean.

I wish I could get both of them back. Or most likely purchase both in the future. Super combo!

BUT. There's a lot of good SS amps out there that can deliver. Best is you try as many as you can. From shops and the used market.

As for amp dirt, the only amp that got me is the Bogner 101b. Just epic.

[siore]

And I dont know what it is...At all

Friends
(Check)
Money
(Check)
A well slept opposite sex
Guitar
(Check)
Microphone
(Check)

 

Well, there are adjectives around, but I'd rather not list, as it's different for different people, and arguable.  Better to leave it at 'nuances'.

[mikki_blinkme]

musta naman response ng tube amo pag main dirt e multieffects?

[boybangs]

In terms of wattage, would a 5 watt tube amp (Epi Valve Jr, Blackheart Lil' Giant, etc) be good enough for bedroom "Chug-chug"? Would it accept pedals well?

Wouldn't it be hard transitioning from practicing with a tube amp then playing live with venues usually equipped with SS amps? Tweak tweak 

[kurtseth]

And I dont know what it is...At all

Friends
(Check)
Money
(Check)
A well slept opposite sex
Guitar
(Check)
Microphone
(Check)

john mayer room for squares

hehehehheh

musta naman response ng tube amo pag main dirt e multieffects?

well i tried that with my ape...i still preferred the analog stomp box sound IMO

i mastered tweaking my g2 on a hybrid amp at church it's a bit so & so for my taste but i never got the tone i wanted from it..

only got it from the SH and the barber DD

[Boxedking]

I used to think you should only get your drive from the amp if it's all tube, but pedals provide flavor if you get so used to the amp's drive sound.  Pwede naman kahit ano, especially with good dirt boxes nowadays, depending on your mood.  Ex. Instead of dirt or OD running on clean or slightly driven tube amp platforms, imagine the guys relying on their distortion pedals and running their high-gain amps on clean.  Dati napapa-iling ako, but now I also understand.  Variety is the spice of life, and accumulating/flipping pedals is cheaper than collecting amps.  Now, if you go with a SS amp for its clean platform, would you also appreciate the drive sound you get from cranking it, should you feel the need to?

Gotta agree with this. I see it as more of a tonal option.

[maxi_musikero]

Dati napapa-iling ako, but now I also understand.  Variety is the spice of life, and accumulating/flipping pedals is cheaper than collecting amps.  Now, if you go with a SS amp for its clean platform, would you also appreciate the drive sound you get from cranking it, should you feel the need to?

agree 100%.  all the more important to get the ideal amp in one go and to lockdown your tonal priorities as far as the amp is concerned (i.e., clean or driven amp). 

[jmreyes]

I understand the concept that people use dirt pedals to provide them with a variety of tonal colors. Fender-y, Marshall-y, Vox-y, Dumble-esque, etc.

For further discussion, what i'm really trying to get at is, are the so-called "nuances" (feel, response, harmonics, etc.) from playing a tube amp CLEAN that apparent AFTER you smack it with a solid-state pedal? Wouldn't a pedals design and character inherently mess up these nuances? Say the pedal is too compressed, doesn't have the most dynamic response, etc.

[BAMF]

I understand the concept that people use dirt pedals to provide them with a variety of tonal colors. Fender-y, Marshall-y, Vox-y, Dumble-esque, etc.

For further discussion, what i'm really trying to get at is, are the so-called "nuances" (feel, response, harmonics, etc.) from playing a tube amp CLEAN that apparent AFTER you smack it with a solid-state pedal? Wouldn't a pedals design and character inherently mess up these nuances? Say the pedal is too compressed, doesn't have the most dynamic response, etc.

Ahhh. There are ideal combinations. For instance, smack a Marshall amp with a Marshall Guvnor and...oh well. For me, it's GROTESQUE.

Safe to play with "transparent overdrives"...or more properly they're clean boosters as they don't mess around with your amps tonality.

I'm starting to be of the opinion that the Tubescreamer series, while not exactly a transparent overdrive, is the most "amp-friendly pedal" there is.

[r_chino18]

Is it still a wise investment to purchase a tube amp if you're just gonna run it clean and use a bunch of OD / Distortion pedals to achieve your dirty tone?

This was one thing I greatly, and I mean greatly, considered when I was looking for a tube amp. Will I be using only the clean channel and get my dirt tones from pedals?

I'm starting to think it's more reasonable to purchase a solid state amp with a nice clean tone and use it as a pedal platform.

This one is really helpful since there are lots of cheaper SS amps out there that have great cleans yet can still handle pedals well. Most of them are gig ready at a fraction of the cost of a 30+ watt all-tube amp.

I'd really appreciate input from folks who think likewise as well as from hard-core-tube-amp-all-the-way people.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks.

I set my mind that I'm going to get a tube amp. I was looking for something that has two channels, not just one. Why? If I only have one channel, most of the time it will be tweaked to sound clean. Dirt tones will come from dirt pedals.

My thinking is, I already shelled out a lot of cash for the tube amp yet will still shell out some more for various dirt pedals. Not too practical in my case.

A two channel tube amp would be really helpful so I can switch from clean to dirty using only the amp. That means, my dirt sounds will come from the tube amp as well as my cleans. With that kind of setup, I save a few cash on pedals and at the same time get to maximize the use of my amp's potential.

Next thing I did was to look for a two-channel tube amp within my price range that can deliver the cleans and dirt sounds that I want. Take note, both must be satisfied first.

Finally, I got myself my own amp. Don't have any pedals with it, just a pedal tuner and an amp footswitch.

Pros and cons of having a tube amp (clean and drive channel are used) than getting a solid state amp/tube amp driven by pedals

All are IMHO,
Pros:
1. Drive channel is hard to beat by pedals. Why? It cleans up really well. Useable cleaning up, imo. You roll down the volume knob and still get a very natural mellow overdriven kind of sound. Do that with pedals and it won't sound the same. It's still the same sound with just less gain. Not much action to it. A bit sterile and bland.

2. Price-wise? Just shoot one two-channel amp and you're good to go. Buy a tube amp/SS amp + pedals and you still invest on additional cables and power supplies and a pedalboard, etc.

3. You get to bond with your amp and your sound. You can maximize the use of the huge investment.

4. Minimizing losses particularly in signal since you are connected straight up.

5. A tube amp that fits in your bedroom but still has the balls to go to gigs? Can't beat that. You dictate and carry your sound. Less tweaking. Satisfaction.

6. Tube change can change your sound.

Cons:
1. GAS don't stop. Somehow, you'll want to add flavor to what you're getting. It's not bad. That's life.

2. Pag bigla kang nagsawa sa drive sound, you know what's next. Parang pedal lang din yan, pwede ka magsawa sa tunog pag nagtagal.

3. If a newer and cooler version came up.

etc. etc. etc.

[siore]

I understand the concept that people use dirt pedals to provide them with a variety of tonal colors. Fender-y, Marshall-y, Vox-y, Dumble-esque, etc.

For further discussion, what i'm really trying to get at is, are the so-called "nuances" (feel, response, harmonics, etc.) from playing a tube amp CLEAN that apparent AFTER you smack it with a solid-state pedal? Wouldn't a pedals design and character inherently mess up these nuances? Say the pedal is too compressed, doesn't have the most dynamic response, etc.

Yes to a degree the tube amp still plays a part.  I wouldn't say the pedals mess up the tube amp's nature, but rather the tube amp improves on the qualities of the pedal, assuming they're a good match as BAMF pointed out.  Especially if the amp's clean is set right where the tubes are starting to get worked up.  But in your example where most of the compression occurs at the pedal, I'd set the amp to the most sterile clean setting.  I guess if you want a more consistent 'pedal dirt' tone, you do want a flat clean setting on a SS amp, over a tube amp that will behave differently at different gain staging and volume levels.  Most of your tone comes from the stomps then.  I'd still say go for a good solid foundation, akin to a chunk of clay you mould later on, in a good tube amp.

[fraudulentzodiac]

have you tried plugging in an old fender all tube amp and use distortion pedals?

that's when the "magic" happens, I can't explain it either. I never bought tube amps for their tube overdrive before (well except maybe the Carvin X100B which had awesome gain), I've always been a "Butler Tube driver plus a fuzz pedal" kind of guy and I've used them with tube amps set to clean before, I can say there's a difference compared to, say, a Peavey Bandit or Transtube. Although now I use a ZT Club 12 (a single channel solid-state amp) and I'm pretty happy with the sounds I'm getting from it, I'd say it comes pretty close to what I had before with a Classic 30 or a Blues Deluxe.

I think acquiring a tube amp is still worth the investment even if you just intend to use the clean channel, perfect example would be a fender twin reverb/dual showman reverb, i love that particular amp and I think what makes it special is it's clean sound, ang hirap kumuha ng amp drive diyan na di ka nabibingi kung wala kang attenuator, and even if you crank it, based on my experience, it doesn't break up to overdrive that much.

[siore]

....
I think acquiring a tube amp is still worth the investment even if you just intend to use the clean channel, perfect example would be a fender twin reverb/dual showman reverb, i love that particular amp and I think what makes it special is it's clean sound, ang hirap kumuha ng amp drive diyan na di ka nabibingi kung wala kang attenuator, and even if you crank it, based on my experience, it doesn't break up to overdrive that much. ...

OT saglit: ... you tried other tubes?    You CAN get it's pre-amp into overdrive territory, then boost the front end some more with pedals.  VERY nice.  Though, it needs to be a little loud at least, below a certain level, it's too fizzy.  Driving the PI and output tubes, OTOH, is difficult.. but again at a certain setting its effect kicks in and fills out the sound of the driven pre-amp.