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Author Topic: the truth about ibanez artcore jazz guitars  (Read 14647 times)

Offline vegetablejoe

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the truth about ibanez artcore jazz guitars
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2006, 06:24:00 PM »
Medyo magulo. Himayin natin ang issues para luminaw ng konti.


1. As far as I've read and can recall, even Gibson ES guitar bodies are made of maple "laminates" and not "solid" wood... but somebody correct me if I'm wrong. AFAIC, not being "solid" wood shouldn't be an issue here.

Hopefully someone with a Gibson ES can look into the wood composition of his guitar and let us know for sure.

2. Bluebossa states that his made in China (miC) Ibanez Artcore is made of lower quality wood ... said to be plywood and not maple or sycamore laminate, because the grains seemed to be painted on and not really part of the wood.

Can other owners of miC Artcores attest to this? Has anyone tried scraping off the thick laquer finish (kahit in one spot lang) to take a peek?

3. The bodies of miC Artcores have been assumed to be different and therefore less desirable from made in Korea (miK) Artcores, and from made in Japan (miJ) Artstars.

Are there other owners of miK or miJ that can verify the composition of their guitars' wood? Pareho ba or iba sa miC?

4. From reading HC reviews, miC Artcores are supposedly superior in tone to miK's. Why is that? If those reviews are to be believed. What is the difference? I can't recall reading anyone saying the woods were different.


Ok, so hopefully more Artcore owners can chime in and help attest to the wood of their guitars. Otherwise, I don't know where this thread is going. Kulang pa tayo sa confirmation in numbers.


Hereunder are just my personal opinions:

In terms of tone --- in the few short minutes that I was lucky enough to hear a real Gibson 335 played unplugged, I preferred it to my Artcore AS73. It sounded warmer and woodier. I can't really put into words what I heard, but my ears just loved it. Was it because of the real maple laminate? I dunno...

In terms of cost -- the Gibby is of course a few thousand dollars more expensive.

In terms of fun -- albeit a little brighter sounding and with a neck that doesn't feel as smooth, the Artcore lets me have a bit of the 335 experience at a fraction of the cost. I can still differentiate that it has a hollow sound different from a solid body guitar. When I crank the amp or use od/gain pedals, I can feel the air pumping out of the F-holes. Cool! Controlled feedback is another plus.

At this price level, I would not be surprised that cutting costs included using plywood. I would practically expect it.

Heck, I'm having fun with it. So I don't understand what the issues with the Artcore are, at all.


YMMV.

Offline kahel

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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2006, 08:28:53 PM »
as 73 ibanez plywood din ba? gusto ko sana sa pasko bumili non :D

Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2006, 09:11:23 PM »
isasalang ko yung akin, for the sake of curious folks.

so calling all woodsman(tama ba? hehe), craftsman, logsplitter, hillbilly etc. etc. for the sake of everyone who wish to know.. paki kilatis ang artcore na to.

flamed back of as83. yung flamed top hindi ko na pinost (anjan din naman sa forum, kasama nung husky)

flamed maple or painted plywood?

compare here 1-piece flame maple top with naptha wiped on to bring out the figuring for the photo.



picture of the mystery wood through the f hole

painted grain? feels real

compare here to a maple pic.. compare to the right side  of the pic  >>V

found this pic in logsplitters.com

sustain/center block..dark mystery wood the ibanez people refer to as MAHOGANY.. painted or probably dark varnished ply wood???



compare here to MAHOGANY tele body

found this on http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/bodywoods

and lastly.. what a wonderful fake woodlike finish they did on this.. looks like mahogany, maple, mahogany 3 pc neck


oh, i dont have a pic of a rreally stripped artcore..i thought looking through the f hole would do hehe. so if anyone has? pa post na lang thanks!


@veggie, i agree with the having fun with your ax,  cause whatever this mystery wood is, it sure sounds great! even unplugged, you could play all night just with the acoustic! and mine became one  sweet mofo when i replaced the pups with Gibson PAFs reissues. imagine this with a varitone and you could almost kiss 335 heaven!

but im really doing this for the benefit of other artcore owners  8) because if these mystery or selected hardwoods (very nice term for ply) are what they are.. then the IBanez people made a very grave LIE.
or whoever made the catalog and the specs on their sites, was a huge A-hole for false advertising their products.
and even if, its in made in china, korea or some oriental place you cant pronounce, wouldnt there be some top Ibanez person checking on the quality of this bang for the buck mass productions? oh if im one of em top Ibanez execs, i wouldnt put my company's name if this is a sorry ass piece of hunk-a-ply. unless some hot brazilian model slept naked with mr. ply


juries decision?

Offline bluejem

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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2006, 03:51:44 AM »
Sir ang solid na tinutokoy ko ay ung material or wood na ginamit sa body ng semihollow or full hollow guitar hindi ung body ng guitar as a whole ksi acoustic body ang mga jazz boxes.Alam ko din ung sinasabi mo sa catalog,in fact meron pa ako prestige and japanese ibanez catalogs.Nkalagay sa catalog maple,but the truth is sobrang nipis ung layer ng maple almost as thin as paper,un na ung grains ns sinsabi mo.Db sir may artcore ka din,to check ganito gawin mo,tangalin mo ung screws ng mounting rings mo,pg ntangal un,pwde mo na iangat ung buong pickup including ung mounting rings.now check mo ung cross cut portion ng wood na pinagsusuotan ng pickup,pg mukhang sandwich un,un bng prang cross cut ng plywood,un na plywood nga gnamit sa guitar mo,if not,good for you.Kng minsan halos di makita ung parang sanwich or plywood na itsura ng wood ksi makapal ung paint even sa cross section.Ung neck sir solid tlga un,ung body lng ang sinasabi nmin na hindi solid.Try mo din icheck ung acoustic guitars sa ibanez catalog,makkita mo ung nakalagay na solid spruce top or solid cedar top.Dpat Ganun e.Sbi ni bluebossa mg eemail ka ng complaint sa ibanez,dat`s a good idea but the thing is mgrrespond kya cla or they would do something about the matter?Sana nga ano,kya mgmula nung nalaman ko ung fact na un,if someday bbili ako uli ng ibanez,I`d go for Japan or Korean made.Pg gipit,un na china na.Hope this will help enlighten you sir.Balitaan mo din ako pg nkpg email ka ng complaint sa ibanez at kng ano response nila.Tnx a lot. :lol:
\"My philosophy is: if the product is right, the price is right and you treat your customers the way you want to be treated, the word-of-mouth is faster than <br />the speed of sound!\"<br />(Words from Bill Lawrence)

Offline bluejem

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the truth about ibanez artcore jazz guitars
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2006, 04:23:42 AM »
Sir Vegetable,I can attest to what bluebossa said about the MIC artcore.In fact the guitar he`s talking about is mine.Your asking to remove some lacker or paint on the guitar,guess what I had my guitar repainted so I`ve seen how the wood looks like if the maple is beeing peeled off(because the layer of the maple is too thin almost like paper and as the luthier removes the paint sometimes the maple is peeled off) .And by the way,we`re talking about the wood used on the guitar not how it sounds because as I`ve said the guitar sounds good,so whether my guitar is going to be sold or not its ok with me `cause it sounds great.Anyways I hope that other MIC artcores are made with solid maple,sycamore or spruce.I really do hope thay are `cause mine is not. :cry:
\"My philosophy is: if the product is right, the price is right and you treat your customers the way you want to be treated, the word-of-mouth is faster than <br />the speed of sound!\"<br />(Words from Bill Lawrence)


Offline bluejem

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the truth about ibanez artcore jazz guitars
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2006, 05:14:04 AM »
Corection lng guys,ung sinabi ni bluebossa na paint ung grains ng wood.Hindi paint ung grains ng wood.Tunay na layer ng maple,sycamore or spruce un na nkapatong sa plywood na gnamit sa body ng MIC artcore gaya ng material na gnamit sa guitar ko.Sobrang nipis nga lng.I beleive blueboossa agrees with me. :roll:  :o
\"My philosophy is: if the product is right, the price is right and you treat your customers the way you want to be treated, the word-of-mouth is faster than <br />the speed of sound!\"<br />(Words from Bill Lawrence)

Offline bluebossa

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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2006, 08:41:33 AM »
bluejem Posted:
 
"Corection lng guys,ung sinabi ni bluebossa na paint ung grains ng wood.Hindi paint ung grains ng wood.Tunay na layer ng maple,sycamore or spruce un na nkapatong sa plywood na gnamit sa body ng MIC artcore gaya ng material na gnamit sa guitar ko.Sobrang nipis nga lng.I beleive blueboossa agrees with me.  "


AY SORRY..MALI PALA AKO.....

Offline bluebossa

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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2006, 08:55:23 AM »
sir vegetable joe.....si sir bluejem po nagparepaint ng artcore.

tama rin kayo,kahit ano pang wood ginamit sa gitara ko,the important thing is...nageenjoy ako sa tunog :D

Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2006, 01:32:46 PM »
what i dont understand is... wala na ngang 1 cm ang kapal nung top, back at sides.. tapos mag sasandwich pa sila ng plywood? i dont think thats cost cutting,  aksaya sya ng oras. and thats not how assembly lines or mass productions go or do they?    do they save more by cutting thin strips of maple , then strips of ply, then using tub of glue then reinforce the wood kesa isalpak na lang nila yung buong maple?
 malaki ba natitipid sa ganong nipis na maple (wala pa 1cm) pag nag substitute ng sandwich? IMHO sa tingin ko hindi.

did i mention pinalitan na ng PAF to? nung ini-install ni sir mike ang pafs, i didnt see any indication it was a sandwiched ply or layered mystery woods.. baka i missed it or maybe my eyes are not trained to spot em


if its a ply, then i guess anytime, this guitar will snap, 11s gauge ng string neto. i thought kse, since hollowbody construction, they have to use real hardwoods like maple to COMPENSATE for the hollowness and to be strong and rigid against the string tension on the neck body joint..if the part of the body where it meets the neck is ply,  anytime this ax will turn into a flying V  8)

anyway, kung meron magpapakita sa inyo ng cross section, please paki picture naman and post. pag sinipag ako , i ll take out mypickups and take picture

thanks


ot: blueroom ba kayo? the bossa samba band?


Offline blue buddha

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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2006, 02:51:26 PM »
From everything I've seen of the Artcore guitars, they are what the literature says they are. But there are some points made in this thread that should be clarified:

• 99% of all arch top semi-hollows and archtop thinline semis have a plywood top. And that includes the grandaddy Gibsons -- ES 335's, 345's, and 355's et al. That even goes for for some fully hollow, full bodied electrics like the Gibby ES175, Gretsch Hollowbodies, or their other derivatives like the Ibanez George Bensons, etc. These tops are manufactured through a process which involves putting a plywood sheet in a machine press and introducing heat and steam to "stamp" the top into an archtop shape. The layers of this plywood are usually "less than perfect" sheets of maple, sycamore, mahogany, spruce, or poplar, birch, or any other stuff of lower grade woods.

• the outer, visible final layer of these tops are usually a piece of clear or figured sheet maple, mahogany, cherry, or other traditional guitarwood that is essentially a veneer intended to receive a finish and be cosmetically acceptable. When someone refers to a topwood in an archtop semi, EVERYONE understands that they are referring to the veneered top that is visible on the outside, and not making a claim that the top is solid.

• the exceptions to the plywood rule on archtop semis are seriously expensive models like the PRS McCarty hollowbody (maple or spruce solidtops without a centerblock), or the even more expensive fully hollow, full bodied archtop jazz boxes like the Gibby Super 400's, L5's, Benedettos, D'Aquistos, D'Angelicos, etc. These kinds of tops are made by carving the tops from solid spruce, maple, or other selected tonewoods and the manual effort alone is worth thousands of dollars.

• it's totally unreasonable to expect or hope for a solid, carved archtop on a $300 guitar, regardless of where in the world it's made.

• There's nothing in mahavishnu's pics or on other artcore models that contradict this. The tops and backs are molded plywood with a plain or figure maple veneer -- not a "painted-on fakewood". The interior block seen through the f-hole is unfinished mahogany -- that's what it looks like -- not some mystery plywood block (making the block out of ply is more expensive, time consuming, and labor intensive). The neck is a 3-piece mahogany/maple/mahogany job -- that's what they look like ( very often, 3-piece necks are more "stable" than one-piece necks).

• The reasons why the artcores cost a lot less than their Gibby counterparts are the following:
1. Cost of production is a lot lower in China.
2. Selection process of material is less stringent than in the Gibby's.
3. Hardware and electronics of a lower spec.
4. The biggest factor: The marketing guys have 90% of the world convinced that the name + history + cool factor = guarantees a better guitar and is worth paying 8 times more for the brand name.

The truth about the Artcore guitar is this: 335's can be very nice, but if you use your ears and spend the time, effort, good judgement, and some resources to upgrade your artcore, you could possibly end up with a well-built, great sounding, and smooth playing guitar which you will enjoy immensely.   :wink:

Offline frogfunk

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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2006, 02:59:23 PM »
Phew! That was long!  :shock:

Anyway, an Artcore's cool.  8)
"Competition is for horses, not artists." - Bela Bartok

"I don’t like to look back, because the whole point in jazz is doing it now." - Scott LaFaro

Offline vegetablejoe

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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2006, 04:48:10 PM »
Ayun! Thanks for chiming in, BB! Timely and very informative, as is your usual...  =D>

Offline blue buddha

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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2006, 06:54:06 PM »
Quote from: frogfunk
Phew! That was long!  :shock:

Anyway, an Artcore's cool.  8)


Apologies -- got carried away as usual.  8-[

Yup, Artcores are cool.

Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2006, 08:21:42 PM »
yep theyre cool for a bang for the buck boxgeetar.. except that lightning bolt hehe

Sir AL, thanks for a very detailed info. You're a wealth of information. i wouldnt be surprise if beacon kids will be the same! i think youve left some of em dropjawed still

OT: oh and you mentioned Benedettos..ive been dreaming Fratello, someone slap me senseless and wake me up. Are ALL Benedettos hand made or carved from solid woods? cause ive read somewhere, they also used laminated spruce or maple for some of their guitars. if only i can find where ive read that.

Offline blue buddha

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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2006, 09:22:52 PM »
Quote from: mahavishnu
yep theyre cool for a bang for the buck boxgeetar.. except that lightning bolt hehe

Sir AL, thanks for a very detailed info. You're a wealth of information. i wouldnt be surprise if beacon kids will be the same! i think youve left some of em dropjawed still.


Hmmm.... now you've tweaked my curiosity. How do do you know all this?

Quote from: mahavishnu

OT: oh and you mentioned Benedettos..ive been dreaming Fratello, someone slap me senseless and wake me up. Are ALL Benedettos hand made or carved from solid woods? cause ive read somewhere, they also used laminated spruce or maple for some of their guitars. if only i can find where ive read that.


Fratellos are tasty indeed. I'm partial to the Manhattans myself. Not all Benedettos have carved solid wood tops -- there are a few models in their regular line that have laminated maple tops. Also, there was a line of Fender-made Benedettos under their commercial joint venture some of which also had laminated tops. Try checking his new post-Long Island website out -- http://www.benedettoguitars.com/

But he's of course best known for his superb tuned, carved top jazz boxes.

Offline bluejem

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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2006, 12:44:14 AM »
Sir blue budha,salamat sa pgconfirm na plywood nga nggamit.ang galing ng pgkadetail mo sir ayos!Anyway ok lng na plywood gitara ko,at least mganda nman tumunog.Cguro someday pg mas ok na budget ko ung solid top na tlga ang hhanapin ko.Sir what about yamaha ES335 look alike,plywood din ba gnamit dun?Sana hindi,gandang ganda ksi ako dun e. :lol:
\"My philosophy is: if the product is right, the price is right and you treat your customers the way you want to be treated, the word-of-mouth is faster than <br />the speed of sound!\"<br />(Words from Bill Lawrence)

Offline blue buddha

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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2006, 08:36:26 AM »
Quote from: bluejem
Sir blue budha,salamat sa pgconfirm na plywood nga nggamit.ang galing ng pgkadetail mo sir ayos!Anyway ok lng na plywood gitara ko,at least mganda nman tumunog.Cguro someday pg mas ok na budget ko ung solid top na tlga ang hhanapin ko.Sir what about yamaha ES335 look alike,plywood din ba gnamit dun?Sana hindi,gandang ganda ksi ako dun e. :lol:


The older Yamaha 335 lookalikes do indeed have plywood tops and backs, and am pretty sure the new production ones do too. Pero ito ang totoo diyan: there's NOTHING WRONG with plywood tops and backs -- in fact, sadyang sadya na plywood ang ginagamit diyan to get "that sound".

The thinline-with-centerblock models were conceived and designed that way by Gibson in the 50's to achieve the following:
• Sonically - performance of a solidbody (minimal feedback) with some of the warmth of a hollowbody
• Ergonomically - reasonable weight
• Aesthetically - a traditional look (archtop)
• Technically - efficiency of manufacture (pressed mold vs. carving) and strength

The use of plywood made sense because it is not as resonant as a feedback inducing, solid, carved top. If a thinly carved top was used, these thinlines would not sound the same -- feedback problems, etc. -- and would not have that more "solidbody" type of performance. The glue layers and the cross lamination of plywood, plus the addition of the centerblock actually kills enough of the resonance to prevent feedback at high volume situations, but imparts just enough of the warmth of a hollowbody. This is a DESIRABLE quality in a rock n roll/crossover guitar and contributes to "that sound". Absolutely nothing wrong or less desirable with the plywood material for Ibanez Artcores, Yamahas, Gibsons, and whatever-brand-you-choose!   8)

Offline bluebossa

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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2006, 11:26:54 AM »
ganun pala yun :D

dami  na nateng blue dito ah...bluebossa,bluejem at si sir blue buddha,hehe

Offline shredmaster26

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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2006, 07:56:38 PM »
This is an interesting thread. =)

Offline vegetablejoe

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« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2006, 10:46:24 AM »
We should have a Vault for useful threads with chockful of info like this one, like the one the SD forum has...

Offline bluejem

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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2006, 05:45:11 PM »
Tnx uli sir Blue Buddha for that clear detail on the matter.Isa pang question sir kng ok lng,Ksi dati nakakita ako ng Godin na semi hollow ung Flat5 series.May nka Spruce top ksi sa Product Line na un e,kso diko nacheck sa specs kng solid Spruce top ang ginamit dun or hindi,solid top nga po ba?another is,mganda ba ang tunog ng solid spruce or cedar top na Jazz guitar for that Jazz guitar tone we`re expecting to hear?Ksi kng mganda nga bka someday mgpgawa ako sa luthier na friend ko ng Jazz guitar with a solid spruce or cedar top and rosewood sides and back,what do you think sir?
\"My philosophy is: if the product is right, the price is right and you treat your customers the way you want to be treated, the word-of-mouth is faster than <br />the speed of sound!\"<br />(Words from Bill Lawrence)

Offline blue buddha

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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2006, 03:53:37 PM »
Quote from: bluejem
Tnx uli sir Blue Buddha for that clear detail on the matter.Isa pang question sir kng ok lng,Ksi dati nakakita ako ng Godin na semi hollow ung Flat5 series.May nka Spruce top ksi sa Product Line na un e,kso diko nacheck sa specs kng solid Spruce top ang ginamit dun or hindi,solid top nga po ba?another is,mganda ba ang tunog ng solid spruce or cedar top na Jazz guitar for that Jazz guitar tone we`re expecting to hear?Ksi kng mganda nga bka someday mgpgawa ako sa luthier na friend ko ng Jazz guitar with a solid spruce or cedar top and rosewood sides and back,what do you think sir?


Sa literature ng Godin, yung Flat5 series daw ay solid tops -- maple o spruce daw yata. Kung 'yan ang advertised claim nila, marahil ay 'yan nga ang material na ginamit ng Godin diyan. Siguradong maiiba ang tunog ng Flat5 sa mga plywood semi-hollows, pero hindi nanghuhulugang mas maganda ang tunog -- kanya kanya lang talaga 'yon -- whatever sounds and feels better to you.

Spruce is known to be a very light and resonant wood, and surely will impart its own sound characteristics to that particular guitar. Someone I know owns a PRS McCarty Hollowbody which is a true hollowbody thinline but with a carved internal soundpost on which the bridge is attacked. The top is solid spruce. It's a very lightweight, great sounding guitar -- doesn't sound like a 335, it but has a very warm, airy, and woody tone.

For traditional jazz sounds (and I don't mean fusion or pogi jazz -- the real deal stuff like Herb Ellis, older Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Charlie Christian, or the chunky tones of Freddie Green of the Count Basie Orchestra), nothing beats the warmth, woodiness, and resonance of a full-depth, solid carved spruce archtop. Its usual partners are a maple back and sides to give a bit of brightness and cut to that reverberating top. Although a cedar top and rosewood back/sides are sometimes seen in jazz guitars, these woods are more common in acoustic flattops -- there's no hard and fast rule to these formulas, so it is possible to use these woods for a jazz guitar too. But in general, you'll find that acoustically, a good piece of spruce will end up louder and more forward than an equivalent piece of cedar, which tends to have warmer, more "played-in", sweeter tonal characteristics. For the back and sides, maple will also tend to have a brighter high end than the rosewood variety. For examples of really nice traditional jazz archtops, try googling vintage versions of the ff: "Gibson Super 400", "Gibson L-5", "D'Angelico New Yorker", "D'Aquisto", "Benedetto", "Stromberg", "Epiphone", etc. and check out their specs. You're in for a real treat.  8)

Offline mahavishnu

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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2006, 08:36:41 PM »
ack! thats too much porn! triggers much brainstorming/future planning... like sacrificing the college plans of one's first born  8)

Offline bluejem

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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2006, 02:56:52 AM »
tnx uli sir blue buddha.
\"My philosophy is: if the product is right, the price is right and you treat your customers the way you want to be treated, the word-of-mouth is faster than <br />the speed of sound!\"<br />(Words from Bill Lawrence)