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Author Topic: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys  (Read 57185 times)

Offline raybrig

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2011, 02:04:51 PM »
:-)

Ok naman un posts ni Firemodel, puro information. Di ko lang ma take yun ibang OT posts. Ok na sana un exchange ng ideas, kaso... oh well.

Sana ituloy na lang yun bigayan ng healthy info.


Ilan taon na ba tayo?  :-)
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Offline 7stringmachine

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2011, 02:20:46 PM »
that's not Alex bashing a post.  if you're talking about the "gooey brown stuff", the person he quoted also said something to that effect:

you wanted a healthy discussion and you actually got it.  thing is, there are some guys who ALWAYS react badly when they see a post coming from firemodel55.  i tried backreading a bit.  it started with the indian and the pana.  reactions were sooooo out of context in that page and got repeated again in this page.  why?  because he posted his 2 cents.  some people just push the curtain of subjectivity too far.

well, for my answers to that its just my opinion that i translated metaphoricly ( Indian as user and Bow as the guitar )
and i think my opinion's make's sense because what i said even an average player could get a high end guitar if he has the budget (no judgement about the talent involve on what i said ) and for me nothing's wrong with that. cause they earned it,to have it. and yes, i apologize for posting some funny shots but i didn't intend to offend anyone i just want to make it more fun cause were all boys here.
i thought this post would lead to like, to those who has a tight budget but love's playing the guitar too much and passionate about would have hope, cause you know im sure they would love to have a nice tone like every guitar player, but problem is they are too tight plus they may have other responsibilities like family etc. well. not all of us can afford those high ends (200k-300k amp) and pick on the low ends is kinda crushing a bit of hope too. and my uncle and aunt is a music producer, and he can testify that there a artists that sticks to just regular gears amps guitars but they have been given the choice to buy those high ends but they choose not too, personal preference pa din. its their choice  
Dang! someone just got schooled:)

Offline mikki_blinkme

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2011, 02:23:52 PM »
Haha. Bro what i did is just shared the video and hoped for a healthy discussion.

and as i posted the title i didn't stated na GREAT TONE ISNT ALWAYS EXPENSIVE. nilgay ko sha sa subject na VIDEO TITLE :| on open and closed parenthesis.

Hahaha yung iba po jan. basa basa muna bago react :)) kase kayo din ang nag mumukang ewan eh. absorb the real content :))


masama na ba mag share ng inresting finds?


bkt ba kailangan mag angasan ba kase? pwede naman i relay in a nice way yung mga sasabihin. bakit kailangan mang bash pa

yah i know brad! nahantong lang sa nakaka nosebleed na englishan at teknikalan. nakakatawa nga e.  :lol: ng dahil sa Bulok na PANA ng Magaling na INDIAN sa VID.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2011, 05:55:26 PM »
Ok... I think I should say something or add more detail and be a bit more long winded before things get out of control.

A lot of people thru out the years know me as a champion of Japanese made guitars.  In fact, my boutique amps came first before any of my boutique guitars.  However that changed when I met my Baker#55.  It was the first US$5K guitar that I bought and of course, the first question that entered my mind and I think anybody's mind is -- is it MARGINALLY worth it?  Unfortunately, I had difficulty trying to identify the MARGINALLY and arrived at the conclusion that nothing I had tried or owned in the past was like it.  But siyempre may honeymoon period.  And as time passed, it was truly difficult to find something to equal it -- I was not discounting the possibility that I should find something superior to the Baker firemodel#55 in the future.  Siyempre gusto mo rin mukhang ESP, Jackson, Dean or Ibanez with the properties of the Baker.  Pero wala.  Gusto mo rin mas cheap rin na name brand kasi gusto mo dalhin sa gig and to belong with the "boys club".  Again, you can ask even my luthier friend Arie Hipolito, and he will ascertain that nothing he has tried has all the properties that Baker Firemodel#55 has.  If there is one guitar that Mr. Hipolito believes that goes on auto-pilot, thats the Baker Firemodel#55 which as I said before does 30-40% of the work for you in terms of effort and sound.  It just seems to sound good and respond on its own naturally as if it can read your mind.   A truly magical guitar that we -- both of us -- cannot explain -- how and why and how it came to be as it is.  By the way, it really shines beyond expectations on my boutique amps.  If there is one guitar that can show the difference very well between a production amp and great sounding and designed boutique tube amp, this is the guitar.  Personally, the joke between us is... are the firemodel 55's days numbered when the Gil Yaron arrives?  Either which way, in my personal assessment, it will be a zero sum game.  There will only be one winner and one loser. 

Can there be something cheaper to rival firemodel55?  I don't think so.  There seems to be a minimum amount of TLC and quality that goes into a magical guitar that costs money with the final sprinkling of magic dust from God. 

On the other hand, I have tried more expensive guitars and guitars at the same price of my baker that don't sound as good.  Even, similar bakers.  Can they sound better than average epiphone?  Yes.  Will an outstanding Epiphone beat an average sounding Baker?  Maybe.  The question though remains, how many outstanding Epiphones are out there?  Maybe a handful or so.

There are two extremes when it comes to buying guitars which I personally observed:

a. The guy who believes that tone is in the hands and believes that great tone can be had cheap.  Yet the funny thing is that he has more than a dozen cheap guitars that if you total can buy a single or two great sounding guitars.  Worse, these guys cannot buy a guitar without testing it and being finicky about it despite their profession that tone is in their hands.

b. The guy with tons of expensive guitars but does not know or hears what sounds great.  They usually flip their boutique or vintage guitars and end up round robin with the same type guitar after two or three years.  Worse, these guys have to technically cite a specific quality about the guitar to justify keeping them in their inventory.  Unknowingly, it reveals that their guitar ain't good because the really great sounding guitars excel in almost all aspects of guitar playing.

Something closer to home... I can pick out great sounding American Standards from a fresh batch of arrivals in Perfect Pitch.  Its easy for me.  One in twenty is the success ratio for American Fender today.  Yet compared to a hand picked classic suhr picked by the suhr factory, it does not hold a candle.  Despite it being at least 2.5 x more expensive than an American Standard, ang layo pa rin.  The question is NOT whether its MARGINAL... rather it becomes a question of which one to use.  And the Suhr wins out all the time.  So, its not a question of whether Suhr can produce duds, they do.... but those that they produce with exceptional mojo ain't cheap by asian and even by average american standards.

Offline burnsbhm

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2011, 08:42:17 PM »
Of course as you said, if the blues players are given better equipment they will certainly get it. Didn't BB King upgraded to a Gibson after a Stella.

It is just funny that people remember and are influenced by Bluesmen who made records with gear of low quality.

I have always walked the talked. Been a pro for 16 years and have always used equipment I can afford. I never had a US made guitar. All bought in a music store.

I have been always coaxed to get boutique gear. But I am content with what I have. People say I sound good. And that's what counts.

No need to prove anything.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 08:55:04 PM by burnsbhm »
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2011, 09:07:21 PM »
.  
actually Alex's post above made a lot of sense and is the truth - if those musicians were given the opportunity to obtain better gear, they would've taken it.  only a hypocrite will say otherwise.

That's true. I've said it before and will say again: those old bluesmen bought the finest gear, cars, clothes, and "wimmens" the moment they can afford it. But, man, they played the hell out of their gear too and made some fine music in the process. Whereas we sit in front of the computer and debate about their gear. LOL!

Btw, some of those guitars seem cheap to us now but they were some of the best during that time, and certainly some of the best those old bluesmen can afford. Even a $10 guitar from the Sears & Roebuck catalog was a luxury at that time for them. Not unlike a sharecropper or slave buying a Suhr or Baker. ;-)

Offline ioffendpeople

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2011, 09:13:49 PM »
That's true. I've said it before and will say again: those old bluesmen bought the finest gear, cars, clothes, and "wimmens" the moment they can afford it. But, man, they played the hell out of their gear too and made some fine music in the process. Whereas we sit in front of the computer and debate about their gear. LOL!

Btw, some of those guitars seem cheap to us now but they were some of the best during that time, and certainly some of the best those old bluesmen can afford. Even a $10 guitar from the Sears & Roebuck catalog was a luxury at that time for them. Not unlike a sharecropper or slave buying a Suhr or Baker. ;-)


back then sears had those great silvertone guitars. i wish i had one of those old bolt-on hollowbodies to rock out with today

Offline burnsbhm

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #157 on: February 15, 2011, 09:14:26 PM »

I've been recently listening to Son House and Robert Johnson. I know what you mean. But don't you think they would have gotten out of their way to use better instruments for recording if they could afford them?

I took my girlfriend out to lunch yesterday, and there was this guitar quartet serenading customers. They played cheap, beat-up instruments that were definitely poorly tuned. But they did their thing pretty well despite that. On the other hand, I am really sure they wouldn't mind using nicer guitars.

What I am really tired of seeing, hearing and reading is how some people use these examples as excuses and be even more defensive about their gear because they're poor or whatnot. Eto yung mga tao na pag nakakita ng member na nag-post ng matinding amp, e ang banat agad e... wow ang yaman mo sir. O kaya pag humingi ng suggestions about a pedal or something... you suggest something really good, tapos sasagutin ka pa ng pabalagbag tapos sesegundahan ng... mahirap lang po ako sir... Ugh.

And that is what bothers me: the quotes and stories enabling the attitude of these people rarely tell the whole story of things.

I couldn't agree with you more man. Given all the opportunities, all of us would definitely get all the boutique gear - IF WE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT.

I am simply saying that we can still make great music even without the expensive gear. As shown by my favorite bluesmen.

If we can't afford it, then we can be content with the ones we have. We can still sound good on it.

The fighting about money versus poverty is not good anymore. I realized that it is wrong so we should stop that. I am only asserting that good tone need not be expensive. Even average equipment can make great music.

At the end of the day, it's the music.

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Offline hmn8

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #158 on: February 15, 2011, 09:47:39 PM »
:-)

Ok naman un posts ni Firemodel, puro information. Di ko lang ma take yun ibang OT posts. Ok na sana un exchange ng ideas, kaso... oh well.

Sana ituloy na lang yun bigayan ng healthy info.


Ilan taon na ba tayo?  :-)

 Actually a lot of it is misinformation but since a lot of people here do not have access to high end gear they tend to agree whatever things those people say. It's a phenomenon I have noticed in the Philippines. Don't have the money/things that the other person have? Bow down, maybe he'll let you even try it.

Offline hmn8

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #159 on: February 15, 2011, 09:54:36 PM »
Yeah but there are more musicians who are as great as him who recorded on a SLO 100.

 No there are not and experienced people know it. In reality there are a lot more crap music recorded on an SLO.

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #160 on: February 15, 2011, 09:57:25 PM »
ugh senseless tone and gear mast_rbation

Offline deltaslim

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #161 on: February 15, 2011, 10:07:31 PM »
Actually a lot of it is misinformation but since a lot of people here do not have access to high end gear they tend to agree whatever things those people say. It's a phenomenon I have noticed in the Philippines. Don't have the money/things that the other person have? Bow down, maybe he'll let you even try it.

... a lot of it is just opinion, too.  People just need to learn to distinguish between opinion and fact. And if listening to opinion, not think that their own gear is less worthy just because it doesn't pass someone else's standards.


Offline the count

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2011, 10:17:48 PM »
@ AL No doubt GH IMO can do all the jobs done... and certainly Jun as well... depende naman sa kung sinong gamay mo eh... and I agree with all forums that I've read: ARIE'S frets of GH are wow!
so it's like in my case (IMO) I rank GH #1 and ROADTONE #2...

But you know I'm really tired of the luthier comparison. guess it's time to have a guild of luthier where unity happens... I'm dreaming of standardized and high quality services "I just don't want that sardinas frets again" and certainly I don't want that "loser" experience be felt by anyone.

My Guitar is where 1/4 of my soul dwells so I felt "abused" when I was wronged by that "psuedo luthier"

Offline hmn8

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #163 on: February 16, 2011, 02:31:48 AM »
... a lot of it is just opinion, too.  People just need to learn to distinguish between opinion and fact. And if listening to opinion, not think that their own gear is less worthy just because it doesn't pass someone else's standards.



 That is indeed true. The only problem is that people don't often realize that it is only an opinion since in most cases it is being presented as actual fact w/ name drops, labels and price tag to support it.

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #164 on: February 16, 2011, 02:38:57 AM »
But you know I'm really tired of the luthier comparison. guess it's time to have a guild of luthier where unity happens... I'm dreaming of standardized and high quality services "I just don't want that sardinas frets again" and certainly I don't want that "loser" experience be felt by anyone.

My Guitar is where 1/4 of my soul dwells so I felt "abused" when I was wronged by that "psuedo luthier"

hey count just a question since never met Elegee before..have you tried the guitars he makes? are those Sardinas frets too?

Offline hmn8

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2011, 02:53:35 AM »
that's not Alex bashing a post.  if you're talking about the "gooey brown stuff", the person he quoted also said something to that effect:

you wanted a healthy discussion and you actually got it.  thing is, there are some guys who ALWAYS react badly when they see a post coming from firemodel55.  i tried backreading a bit.  it started with the indian and the pana.  reactions were sooooo out of context in that page and got repeated again in this page.  why?  because he posted his 2 cents.  some people just push the curtain of subjectivity too far.

totally agree with this.  which is why i reacted when popcorn photos came out.  walang natutulong sa thread mga post na ganun eh.  

actually Alex's post above made a lot of sense and is the truth - if those musicians were given the opportunity to obtain better gear, they would've taken it.  only a hypocrite will say otherwise.

  I will respectfully disagree with this. Somebody who says otherwise is not a hypocrite but an inexperienced musician. Yes, some will jump at the opportunity but those who don't are not hypocrite, they just know what they need to get the job done. What you look for in gear is character and how it translate to your music, how it sits in a track. Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating. Would RATM's debut album be more influential if Tom used an orig 59 LP and a Dumble amp? Would Eric Johnson be able to create Ah Via Musicom w/ a first act guitar and a pignose amp? Would Marley's Redemption Song be more beautiful if he used a 20k acoustic? There is no measuring stick in art.

  Imagine if all forum members here own boutique equipment. High end guitars, amps, efx, the works. Do you think we would all get along by then? No! Because it is human nature to look for the greener pasture, to look for something better than the next guy. I'm sure there will be somebody who will buy the more expensive gear, brag about it and say "look, my stuff is better than yours" but there will also be some people that will say "what I have right now is enough for what I want to accomplish, now excuse me while I make some music".
 

Offline samuelfianza

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2011, 03:50:27 AM »
Horrible tone isn't always cheap.



sorry guys :lol:

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #167 on: February 16, 2011, 06:50:53 AM »
Horrible tone isn't always cheap.



sorry guys :lol:

My turn...

I have not spoken about this video for a long long time...

Here is my side of the equation.  I was using Jon Elegee's amp and he was using a cellphone to record the sound.  So, if you think that its horrible tone then as a moron you should accept that it is because of Jon's lousy amp and lousy cellphone.  Period.  I have always said that people who think they should judge tone using cellphones are stupid and deaf -- that includes you samuel.:) Sorry guys.

Now thats off my chest...

At that point in time,  I was friends with Elegee.  In fact the only reason, I brought the Baker to him at that time because none of Elegee's guitars had hiyaw.  They were heavy and inconsistent.  It was difficult for the Jon to accept at that time.  Today, I can only surmise the video is still up there because Jon cannot accept that he cannot put magic into his guitars.  That I cannot blame him for because I believe all guitar manufacturers including boutique guys cannot put magic in ALL their guitars.  

Sorry Elegee... but it had to come out because you never discussed the context of why you had taken the video -- because you wanted to imprint the baker firemodel#55. At that time, you were making and selling guitars that did not have hiyaw.  But at that time, I told him to continue making guitars because I felt he was on to something and fulfilled the need for an affordable custom guitar.  I really don't know now...  I have not tried any of his newer guitars.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 08:32:22 AM by firemodel55 »

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #168 on: February 16, 2011, 07:01:19 AM »
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is, cheap gear doesn't always equate to poor tone or sound. For as long as you really know how to play, knowing proper guitar phrasing and having the right amount of technique, then the ultra-expensive guitars and gears would be the least of your concerns. Make do with what you have. Feel it, be passionate about it and it'll do wonders.

Frank, at the time, already had the means to purchase and use high-end recording equipment and amps. But he opted to use the Pignose instead. Why? Because of the three (3) factors or components Frank had with the Pignose: Comfortability, Satisfaction and Contentment.

So whats the point?  If you can cite one specific context wherein a known guitarist uses a pignose, I can provide the other perspective that there are more known guitarists to who the soldano SLO 100 than a pginose because it sounds better.  Unless you are telling me that Zappa is superior to everybody else, I am within my rights to cite a counter example.  THATS THE POINT.

What price level do you define as cheap?  What price level do you define as ultra expensive?  Ang pignose na sinsabi mo ay mas mahal pa ngayon kaysa ibang practice amp na gawang china na mabibili sa JB.  As I observe audiences, technic is just around 20% of the equation for them.  The 80% is sound timbre.  Why?  Because they are tired off guitarist wanking off and sounding bad.  Of course the song is more important than anything else.  Don't you notice that only guitarists clap at solos while most of the audience who are non-guitarists are happy that the solo is over?  Specially those with bad tone.  I can tell you that the audience hates the raspy distortion coming out of multi-effects and excessive crash cymbals.  Those are the two things that shut off people's ears.

Lets put it into context... how often did Zappa use his pignose in vis-a-vis his other expensive stuff? If you are saying that he used the Pignose because of its sound quality, so why does he also use the other high end stuff?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 07:05:08 AM by firemodel55 »

Offline free2rock

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #169 on: February 16, 2011, 07:49:46 AM »
The 80% is sound timbre.  

This. :-)

Zappa decided to use a the small Pignose for recording because he probably felt it was the right one for the music he created. And based on how it was received, he was right. I pointed this out because "great tone isn't always expensive"--as the title shows. BUT I did not put that note out there just to deny the fact that expensive gear does not produce great tone. More often than not, expensive gear may get you close.

There has to be a sense of balance between how gear, technique and musicality work hand in hand to produce tone.
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Offline kurtseth

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #170 on: February 16, 2011, 07:58:51 AM »

There has to be a sense of balance between how gear, technique and musicality work hand in hand to produce tone.

finally someone who can say his opinion without bashing anyone Else's own.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #171 on: February 16, 2011, 08:42:12 AM »
finally someone who can say his opinion without bashing anyone Else's own.

I just want to qualify that taken separately -- and that was how this thread was started -- equipment was the context of the discussion. Musicality and technique are part and parcel of music.  So, as I said, song is king but equipment like any job or endeavor plays a huge role that people tend to diminish because they cannot afford it.  Unfortunately, higher standards require higher costs and some people would want it otherwise because of their bruised ego.  As much as I want to go back to my tokai, which to my surprise is selling around three times my purchase price at that time... I simply cannot because my classic Suhr Strat sounds so much better in ALL aspects.

So I post as a challenge to people who claim that great tone isn't expensive, WHAT GUITAR GEAR DID YOU EVER BUY THAT YOU CONSIDER EXPENSIVE?

« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 12:40:47 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline raybrig

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #172 on: February 16, 2011, 08:48:18 AM »
^hinay hinay lang po sana sir, baka po may maoffend po kasi. kung pwede lang  :-)
maganda sana mga info's nyo sir, kaso... you know  :-)
zzzzzzz

Offline pitongjerome

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #173 on: February 16, 2011, 09:24:55 AM »
I simply cannot because my classic Suhr Strat sounds so much better in ALL aspects.


hi sir would you think every musician would say the same regarding your suhr strat and your tokai strat in, for example, a blind test? even if they are subjected to cheap amps to the boutique ones?

just asking.. because i really do like blind tests because somewhat, if the brain knows something is much more expensive, it may tell the ears that its sounds better too..

just asking.. just my opinion..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline Al_Librero

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #174 on: February 16, 2011, 09:40:36 AM »
^hinay hinay lang po sana sir, baka po may maoffend po kasi. kung pwede lang  :-)
maganda sana mga info's nyo sir, kaso... you know  :-)
di niya kelangan mag hinay hinay kasi may mga nagtatanggol naman sa mga posts niya e. hehehe. if he was capable more tact in these forums, we should've already seen it years ago.

on the other hand....

Horrible tone isn't always cheap.



sorry guys :lol:

this was unnecessary.

i think you just became fair game kasi isiningit niyo tong vid na to sa usapan.


finally someone who can say his opinion without bashing anyone Else's own.
not sure how much of this sentence you really mean. but did you just lump the rest of us together with Alex? lol...


I will respectfully disagree with this. Somebody who says otherwise is not a hypocrite but an inexperienced musician. Yes, some will jump at the opportunity but those who don't are not hypocrite, they just know what they need to get the job done. What you look for in gear is character and how it translate to your music, how it sits in a track. Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating. Would RATM's debut album be more influential if Tom used an orig 59 LP and a Dumble amp? Would Eric Johnson be able to create Ah Via Musicom w/ a first act guitar and a pignose amp? Would Marley's Redemption Song be more beautiful if he used a 20k acoustic? There is no measuring stick in art.
While some will be inexperienced, there will be a handful who will inevitably be hypocrites. But you bring up an excellent point. I think it's important to make such distinctions. Mahirap yung nag-ge-generalize basta basta.


Imagine if all forum members here own boutique equipment. High end guitars, amps, efx, the works. Do you think we would all get along by then? No! Because it is human nature to look for the greener pasture, to look for something better than the next guy. I'm sure there will be somebody who will buy the more expensive gear, brag about it and say "look, my stuff is better than yours" but there will also be some people that will say "what I have right now is enough for what I want to accomplish, now excuse me while I make some music".
Another excellent point.

On my part, while I don't brag about having expensive gear, I do constantly try to look for something different (which sometimes thankfully ends up being cheaper).
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