Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys

[pitongjerome]

agree with you too.  but all things being equal, a more expensive guitar is made up of more expensive and higher quality parts - hence the premium on the price - making it a better guitar than more cheap ones.  again, all things being equal.

agree bro..

but sometimes i wonder.. there are certain builds using top of the line, most expensive woods, by the best luthier, with top of the line hardwares and all.. yet the guitar won't sound that good as expected..

well good thing there is still a mystery.. or else we end up having the same guitars provided we can afford it

[deltaslim]

agree with you too.  but all things being equal, a more expensive guitar is made up of more expensive and higher quality parts - hence the premium on the price - making it a better guitar than more cheap ones.  again, all things being equal.

 Maxi, yes, more expensive guitar = better guitar in terms of premium parts and construction... Pero not necessarily = better tone. Daming real world examples of expensive and high quality MIA guitars that didnt sound as good as more humble and cheaper MIJs.

We're not talking about absolutes here. Lets just accept that there are exceptions. Yun lang naman point nung OP.

[maxi_musikero]

agree bro..

but sometimes i wonder.. there are certain builds using top of the line, most expensive woods, by the best luthier, with top of the line hardwares and all.. yet the guitar won't sound that good as expected..

well good thing there is still a mystery.. or else we end up having the same guitars provided we can afford it

it's that mystery that keeps us guitarists searching and experimenting.   

Maxi, yes, more expensive guitar = better guitar in terms of premium parts and construction... Pero not necessarily = better tone. Daming real world examples of expensive and high quality MIA guitars that didnt sound as good as more humble and cheaper MIJs.

We're not talking about absolutes here. Lets just accept that there are exceptions. Yun lang naman point nung OP.

yup tama..there is definitely no room for absolutes when it comes to guitar building.  which makes it a lot more interesting and closer to the heart of the guitarist so to speak.  the perfect match comes when a guitarist discovers the mystery within his guitar. 

[hmn8]

agree with you too.  but all things being equal, a more expensive guitar is made up of more expensive and higher quality parts - hence the premium on the price - making it a better guitar than more cheap ones.  again, all things being equal.

 What are those things that are equal? If I give two identical parts: bare wood, electronics, hardware etc., and give it to two luthiers, one is John Suhr and the other one is Elegee and they will be making exactly the same guitar. Basically all they need to do is cut/shape the body and neck, put the guitar together. You will have two exact instruments that will be priced differently. Jon's will definitely be cheaper but is the more expensive one better? No! If we consider all things equal then the premium on the price goes to the cost of labor/ reputation of builder not on the parts.

[hmn8]

of course it goes without saying that when you upgrade, you will get the ones that are better suited to your taste.  it's simple common sense.  getting better gear doesn't simply mean getting the more expensive stuff out there.  you still have to be in-line with your music.  if you are a hardcore strat guy and you currently have a cheapo strat, your goal may be getting a better Japanese or American strat.  why would you "upgrade" to an LP unless you want a different flavor?  when a sniper upgrades, he upgrades with a better sniper rifle with more advanced scope or whatever.  he won't "upgrade" to a bigger machine gun or something.

the scenarios you cited are all what-if's.  no way to prove or disprove.  some would argue that RATM will still sound the same in a Dumble and Eric Johnson can still kill a song with a small amp.  point is, you wouldn't know what will happen if those scenarios actually happened.  

of course we still won't get along - that's where the subjectivity comes in!  only the inexperienced will buy more expensive gear to brag.  those people are laughable.

those that stick with their gear and don't upgrade may say that they are contented.  but how many are REALLY contented?  i daresay that majority have other priorities in life which demand a bigger chunk of their budget than making music.  it can be another hobby, family matters, what have you.  that is respectable because they know their priorities.  but only a small percentage of those people can actually claim that they are contented in the true sense of the word.

  I think you missed my point. All I was saying is that those people that are not interested in the latest and greatest even if they can afford it are not hypocrites like you stated nor are they contented for the rest of their lives but merely they have the knowledge and confidence to know their tools to get the job done. There are tons of those people, maybe not in this forum but in the real professional world. The reason I cited those scenarios is not because I was interested in the outcome but rather why did those people chose those gears/tools when they have access to better more expensive stuff just as you stated we musicians are inclined to do.
 

i still maintain the position that a truly experienced musician - when given the opportunity - will upgrade his gear to better and more expensive ones that he thinks will improve his music-making prowess.  

  I think that's a better statement with less emphasis on the word expensive. IMO I will say that most if not all will TRY the new product out there given the opportunity just out of curiosity. Hey, what happened to those guys here who "upgraded" to the Klon? 

[omarrodriguezvic]

Dude I feel you'll get even more "constipated" when you have your gear refretted by someone who claim to do it in "2" hours... gusto mo bang mag bend sa fret "mala lata ng sardinas na binuksan ng kutsilyo" hehehe... na try konang mag pa refret sa sablay... at sablay talaga.

buti nalang dinalako muna sa isa pang "Ok" na luthier...

then finally binalik ko sa "original master" buti hindi nakahalata.... and yun bumalik ang "mojo" hehe

peace

Ok yan sa original master. Yung sablay na luthier eh master din. master sardines. Pa pm din ako thanks!

[firemodel55]

What are those things that are equal? If I give two identical parts: bare wood, electronics, hardware etc., and give it to two luthiers, one is John Suhr and the other one is Elegee and they will be making exactly the same guitar. Basically all they need to do is cut/shape the body and neck, put the guitar together. You will have two exact instruments that will be priced differently. Jon's will definitely be cheaper but is the more expensive one better? No! If we consider all things equal then the premium on the price goes to the cost of labor/ reputation of builder not on the parts.

Oh thats an oversimplification...

John Suhr would know when to use a piece a wood, he rejects a lot of planks.  Jon would not know when NOT to use a piece of wood -- I can truly say that non of John Suhr's guitars are as heavy as Jon's heaviest guitars.  John winds his own pickups from scratch, Jon uses Korean pickups with some modifications at best or at worst tries to make his own that sound ngo ngo, John Suhr uses Gotoh produced to his specification made to maximize tone and resonance, Gotoh does not even deal with Jon on a personal level.  Shall I go on?  John Suhr has a super thin nitro finish that maximizes tone, while Jon still uses thick finish that I have no idea as to what it does to tone and resonance.  John Suhrs makes consistent guitars in terms of physical properties and shapes.  Jon's shapes are not consistent.  Finally, the Suhr guys know which guitar has mojo.  Jon does not even know when a guitar has mojo.

But of course, mas affordable si Jon and that works to his favor.  Mahal ang John Suhr pero malaking layo rin ng quality and attention to detail at tunog ng John Suhr sa elegee.  You get what you pay for really...

I own two John Suhrs and even up to this day, elegee guitars are only but 30% in terms of quality and sound of the Suhrs even with so called aftermarket parts.

By the way, I never liked the Klon and I never bought one BECAUSE i dont have a good sounding Fender Deluxe Reverb or Fender Twin Reverb.  Unfortunately, I think Jon needed the Klon more than I because of his modified 70s twin reverb which he eventually sold.  So, if I were you before you criticize the Klon, make sure you know for WHAT SPECIFIC PURPOSE IT WAS DESIGNED for.

[firemodel55]

come on guys wag kayo magtalo talo....for me, i can only afford kung anong laman lang ng wallet ko at kung anong "best" na pwede at kasya sa budget to satisfy myself. There's no competition here. if you hate his sound, show a little RESPECT na lang and keep it to yourself whatever yung sa panrinig mo ay ayaw mo. i need "better" gear na not so expensive than "best" gears na sobrang mahal. practicality anyway

sir firemodel mawalang galang lang po, ano bang meron sa tenga mo na magical na wala kami? magikin mo naman yung gitara ko hehe peace

kung mayaman lang ako bibili ako nang 2 gitarang pinapakita sa video then susunugin ko yung isa hahahaha

As someone said, some have it and most don't.  Kagaya ng beauty, some have it and most don't.  Law of nature I guess. 

[free2rock]

What are those things that are equal? If I give two identical parts: bare wood, electronics, hardware etc., and give it to two luthiers, one is John Suhr and the other one is Elegee and they will be making exactly the same guitar. Basically all they need to do is cut/shape the body and neck, put the guitar together. You will have two exact instruments that will be priced differently. Jon's will definitely be cheaper but is the more expensive one better? No! If we consider all things equal then the premium on the price goes to the cost of labor/ reputation of builder not on the parts.

That's actually assuming John Suhr and Elegee are using the same equipment, same quantifiable knowledge, experience and experience in guitar building. It's like giving two artists two canvases, same set of paint and brushes then let them compete by making a better Mona Lisa.

There are so many factors to consider.

[firemodel55]

Your counter-example, if that's what you wanna call it, wasn't necessary. It ain't needed. The guy was just merely saying that Frank used a Pignose for recording his tracks but still managed to produce great tone out of it. We all know that there's more to that "counter-example" of yours than meets the eye.

(Linalagay ko lang sa context na mas maganda talaga hands down ang SLO kaysa Pignose and unfortunately, you or I am NOT Frank Zappa.  Personally, I prefer the sound of other guitarists as great who don't use a Pignose.)

Yes, sa ngayon, e talagang mas mahal na ang Pignose compared sa mga practice amps na gawang China na mabibili sa JB. Pero iba yung ngayon sa panahon ni Frank Zappa.

(So do you think Frank Zappa will plug into a China practice amp today if he were alive?)

He used his other expensive stuff for variation. Just like any other professional musician would do. Steve Vai uses his Carvin Legacy and a Marshall live and in recording, y'know what I mean?

(Talaga?  Why do you think Ben Fargen was pulled in to help in the design on the second Carvin Legacy?  This is the story.  One fine day, I decided to call Mr. Cliff Cultreri on the phone and we were discussing some things.  Unfortunately, we were being interrupted occasionally because Mr. Steve Vai was on the other line.  So, I asked Cliff what Steve was concerned about, and he told me that Steve was happy that Cliff had hooked him up with Ben Fargen to help design his new Carvin legacy -- series two I think.  So, you know what I mean now?  Your so called heroes either don't use their gear exactly as seen or by God they use boutique amps at home.  Its also the same story with Two Rock and Joe Satriani.  If you read the liner notes of the new album, there is a word of thanks by Joe to Two Rock and Cliff Cultreri.  By the way as I said before, Joe Satriani really loved the Two Rock J2 and was asking Two Rock to product a 100 watt version for touring -- I think Two Rock made him a 100 watt power amp instead which was slaved to the J2 signature - DESPITE JOE ENDORSING MARSHALL TODAY.)

[firemodel55]

That's actually assuming John Suhr and Elegee are using the same equipment, same quantifiable knowledge, experience and experience in guitar building. It's like giving two artists two canvases, same set of paint and brushes then let them compete by making a better Mona Lisa.

There are so many factors to consider.

My personal opinion -- thats not ever going to happen because John Suhr has amassed so much knowledge and experience that elegee is unfortunately not exposed to or will be exposed to at the same level of his remaining life.  Makikita mo sa mga produkto nila.  Previously, I said that baka maka habol si Elegee but at this point, I don't think so.  Besides, I think he is making surfboards and skateboard now plus... iyung dating assistant niya kung saan siya heavily dependent sa trabaho ay lumipat na sa isang bagong luthier down south (tsismis lang iyon, so I wouldn't really know.)  Besides, the better Mona Lisa is here -- Suhr beats out elegee.

Now ewan ko ang Rasmus by Suhr but the way I see it initially medyo angat pa rin ang Rasmus.

But one thing I can say for both, hindi naman talaga nila gawa their guitars 100% personally.  Pareho silang may assistant.  Kaso ang assistant yata ni John Suhr ay mas magaling sa assistant ni Jon.

[bryanarzaga]

John Suhr has a super thin nitro finish that maximizes tone, while Jon still uses thick finish that I have no idea as to what it does to tone and resonance.  John Suhrs makes consistent guitars in terms of physical properties and shapes.  Jon's shapes are not consistent.  Finally, the Suhr guys know which guitar has mojo.  Jon does not even know when a guitar has mojo.

just to clarify not all, S1 - S4 models have poly finishes..and so are the rest but sanded down so they dont feel as thick..

[firemodel55]

agree bro..

but sometimes i wonder.. there are certain builds using top of the line, most expensive woods, by the best luthier, with top of the line hardwares and all.. yet the guitar won't sound that good as expected..

(Yup that has occurred to me too.  Unfortunately, there's also an upside.  When the stars all align, some of the best luthiers produce the best instruments ever that will just touch you in the heart that even the best efforts of mediocre luthiers cannot hope to reach. Parang dalawang normal curve iyan with the best luthier having a normal curve thats either higher or more to the right. )

well good thing there is still a mystery.. or else we end up having the same guitars provided we can afford it

[firemodel55]

just to clarify not all, S1 - S4 models have poly finishes..and so are the rest but sanded down so they dont feel as thick..

I just wanted to point out that Jon Elegee does not even have a nitro option.  Elegee's weakness has always been finish kaya halos panay natural siya na may makakapal na see thru coating.  Ang panget talaga ng mga solid colors niya.

[firemodel55]

I just want to make it clear that for the price, Elegee's work might meet your standards and that's fine.  But in now way does it equal the more expensive American and European luthiers.

Its OK AND ACCEPTABLE to own average or affordable gear.  But its NOT OK to say that it equals the more expensive gear.  There are people other than myself who have gone thru both average and affordable gear (its actually a prerequisite to know before you start spending money on more expensive gear) before moving on to boutique gear.  Some even more or less from time to time dabble or buy production line instruments, effects, etc.  But quite a number of us are honest enough to say based on experience and our use of certain boutique gear that the sound better than cheaper or inexpensive gear.  There are exceptions -- some expensive gear really sound bad too -- but the GENERAL RULE OF THUMB is that expensive gear sounds much better than cheap gear.  And if you are looking for the holy grails of tone, boutique is where you should start whether Robert Johnson is still alive or dead.

[heyman]

ITS THE INDIAN NOT THE PANA 

mga master ano ba pinakamahal po na gitara sa buong mundo? bakit yung luthier nun hindi na lang niya angkinin at ibebenta pa sa iba? siya na sana ang may pinakamagandang tone heheh

[firemodel55]

ITS THE INDIAN NOT THE PANA  

mga master ano ba pinakamahal po na gitara sa buong mundo? bakit yung luthier nun hindi na lang niya angkinin at ibebenta pa sa iba? siya na sana ang may pinakamagandang tone heheh

Kaso ang magagaling na Indian ay namimili pa ng pana... manood ka ng history at discovery channel.  Haven't lived that long to find out.  Pero this I can say, masasabi ko kung ang gitara mo ay isa sa pinakamahal ng gitara sa buong mundo... at kung ito ay may magandang 'tone'... heh heh

[farseer]

ITS THE INDIAN NOT THE PANA 

mga master ano ba pinakamahal po na gitara sa buong mundo? bakit yung luthier nun hindi na lang niya angkinin at ibebenta pa sa iba? siya na sana ang may pinakamagandang tone heheh

tama... buti nalang cowboy ako, lol

yun blackie ata ni Clapton pinakamahal...

nakakatawa nitro na pinagmamalaki sa electric, 2nd best option lang sa acoustic... go Varnish... hahaha

[firemodel55]

tama... buti nalang cowboy ako, lol

yun blackie ata ni Clapton pinakamahal...

nakakatawa nitro na pinagmamalaki sa electric, 2nd best option lang sa acoustic... go Varnish... hahaha

Ang problema sa blackie, ang luthier niyon si Clapton... siya nag desisyon which combination of neck and body.... heh heh

Talaga?  Eh kung varnish ang ginamit sa tunay na bursts di ang panget ng itsura nila ngayon... probably walang value at walang checkering with the wrong or bad looking patina. bwa hah hah

[farseer]

agree bro..

but sometimes i wonder.. there are certain builds using top of the line, most expensive woods, by the best luthier, with top of the line hardwares and all.. yet the guitar won't sound that good as expected..

well good thing there is still a mystery.. or else we end up having the same guitars provided we can afford it

Most true... kasi naman sa electrics, sukat na yan eh.. pipili kalang ng kahoy, then build it to the right measurement... sa acoustic/archtop pwede yan itono, mas manipis na top, mas tapered/scalloped yun bracing etc... kaya mas bilib ako sa luthier ng acoustic/archtop kesa electrics... mas may art at skill involeved, hindi pili lang ng kahoy... even woods that have great tap tone may chance na hindi maging maganda tunog....

[heyman]

Kaso ang magagaling na Indian ay namimili pa ng pana... manood ka ng history at discovery channel.  Haven't lived that long to find out.  Pero this I can say, masasabi ko kung ang gitara mo ay isa sa pinakamahal ng gitara sa buong mundo... at kung ito ay may magandang 'tone'... heh heh

si robinhood ba namili pa ng pana? although hindi siya indian ha, pano niya pinili e nakasabit lang sa likod niya yung mga arrows. sabagay mayaman si robinhood tinatapon niya lang yung pana. di katulad ng sundalo pag naubusan ng baril sa gera namumulot lang. kung mayaman siguro lahat tinatapon lang pati gitara

yung gitara ng demonyo dun sa pick of destiny mahal din siguro yun, joke

kidding aside...mostly yung high end guitars may magagandang tunog infairness

[bryanarzaga]

I just wanted to point out that Jon Elegee does not even have a nitro option.  Elegee's weakness has always been finish kaya halos panay natural siya na may makakapal na see thru coating.  Ang panget talaga ng mga solid colors niya.

options are good, but my point is on the nitro vs poly finishes as long as its used right it doesnt matter that much for tone..

scott H's inquiry to John S.

Scott,
It's all about the thickness and hardness of the paint, not the actual paint.
Nitro lacquer gets gummy and soft when it gets hot, also acids in your sweat will eat nitro. You've had both polyester and acrylic lacquer on your guitars, acrylic on the orange one. The acrylic is the most like old lacquer but polyester when sprayed thin sounds the same.

[farseer]

Ang problema sa blackie, ang luthier niyon si Clapton... siya nag desisyon which combination of neck and body.... heh heh

Talaga?  Eh kung varnish ang ginamit sa tunay na bursts di ang panget ng itsura nila ngayon... probably walang value at walang checkering with the wrong or bad looking patina. bwa hah hah

baka wala masyadong difference kung varnish sa electrics... unless semi hollow or hollow body... kung varnish ang naging norm sa lespauls im sure ganun pa din value nun... hndi naman sila mahal dahi sa finish check.., actually if you find one w/o finish checks or pristine, yun ang mas mahal...

mahal lang naman blackie kasi collectible... supply and demand parin  nag didikta ng prices....

[farseer]

options are good, but my point is on the nitro vs poly finishes as long as its used right it doesnt matter that much for tone..

scott H's inquiry to John S.

nitro kasi ang norm sa golden era ng fenders and gibsons... i like nitro kasi nagaage... maganda yun mojo vibe pag tumanda

[firemodel55]

Most true... kasi naman sa electrics, sukat na yan eh.. pipili kalang ng kahoy, then build it to the right measurement... sa acoustic/archtop pwede yan itono, mas manipis na top, mas tapered/scalloped yun bracing etc... kaya mas bilib ako sa luthier ng acoustic/archtop kesa electrics... mas may art at skill involeved, hindi pili lang ng kahoy... even woods that have great tap tone may chance na hindi maging maganda tunog....

And thats why I decided to order from Gil Yaron to test the theory that a human being can do it para sa electric ... mas bilib ako dahil kung magawa niya I believe na mas mahirap na pumili ng kahoy na may tone kaysa sa art and skill involved sa pag gawa ng acoustic or archtop.