Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys

[bryanarzaga]

Suddenly, this thread ain't no fun for me no more... 

This arguing over luthiers and finishes... it's soooo circa 2005-2006. Mamaya ayan na rin yung mastodon ivory nut.... Hehehe.

yeah, like i said before UGH..lol...why did we pick up guitar in the first place?

[burnsbhm]

Nice thread.  And agree ako sa observation ng iba na electronics makes a lot of difference in mid gain / high gain electric guitar tone.  

I found the discussion regarding use of expensive gear informative.  I agree that we all want or probably dream to own one of those boutique gears.  But our wants do not always translate to our needs, hence you can see a lot of players who can afford boutique, still go for standard/common gear.  Going back to the topic - I believe that "Great tones" can be arrived at using average/standard (I don't want to say cheap...) gear.  Mas madali nga lang makukuha kung boutique route (as implied by those with experience - sadly I haven't tried yet) - but with hard work and luck we can also get that same great tone.  Real world examples are professionals still using standard gear for recording.  If great tone was exclusive for expensive gear - pare pareho na malamang ang gamit ng lahat...

Since tone is subjective, can anyone point us to some examples of "great tone" using boutique/expensive gear?  Probably a good contrast to the video on the original post.  When I think about GREAT guitar tones, I can only think about particular artists who all MOSTLY use standard guitars (strat, LP, Tele etc.) and gears.  Are there any recent artists that is universally accepted to have "great tone" using boutique gear?

I'll also give another real world examples - cover and showbands treading the boards. Bands that have to play both Sinatra and Metallica on the same gig. Some can afford expensive gear some cannot. But almost all of us use digital multi-effects, standard BOSS pedals, Korean, Japanese or Taiwanese made guitars (may mga US made pero mediyo mababa ang percentage). Musicians who have more priorities like family to feed, children to go to school, parents na retirado na kaya dapat padalhan ng pera, tapos banda lang ang ikinabubuhay, almost impossible makakuha ng very very expensive guitars and effects (I don't see any guitarist in showbands will soon own a Suhr or a Yarron or a Klon Centaur or Gene Cornish - they don't even bring amps if they even own one).

But yun nga, these guys make the most of it.

Who wouldn't want a very expensive boutique gear? But if you don't have it, will it stop you from playing ang making music?

That was my point about the bluesmen I mentioned. Having just measly cheap instruments didn't stop them from making records. And the songs we remember them are from the time they still cannot afford expensive gear.

[firemodel55]

nangatong pa... im sure magagndahan siya... sa goodall nga muntik siya bumili sa sg.......... yun goodall ko na kay doc paul na, very nice guitar

Just to point out may panget rin na Goodall which I tested at the same time against the nice sounding Goodall... So for me, like electric guitars, I assess each guitar as unique and on a case by case basis.

[firemodel55]

I'll also give another real world examples - cover and showbands treading the boards. Bands that have to play both Sinatra and Metallica on the same gig. Some can afford expensive gear some cannot. But almost all of us use digital multi-effects, standard BOSS pedals, Korean, Japanese or Taiwanese made guitars (may mga US made pero mediyo mababa ang percentage). Musicians who have more priorities like family to feed, children to go to school, parents na retirado na kaya dapat padalhan ng pera, tapos banda lang ang ikinabubuhay, almost impossible makakuha ng very very expensive guitars and effects (I don't see any guitarist in showbands will soon own a Suhr or a Yarron or a Klon Centaur or Gene Cornish - they don't even bring amps if they even own one).

But yun nga, these guys make the most of it.

Who wouldn't want a very expensive boutique gear? But if you don't have it, will it stop you from playing ang making music?

That was my point about the bluesmen I mentioned. Having just measly cheap instruments didn't stop them from making records. And the songs we remember them are from the time they still cannot afford expensive gear.

I also have other priorities that occupy my time and I  make sure that I only buy the best guitar gear and NOT junk which are easily sold in less than a year or two in the classifieds.  Buying and shopping for thrash is just such a waste. Making the most of what you have is expected, but making the most can only do so much.  It reaches a threshold.

Musicians choose to be musicians for varied reasons.  Some are talented and most are NOT.  I believe that they have obligations and are trying to make ends meet.  But if you are failing as a musician, I think you should consider a career change and stop pointing out that life is hard.  If you have a family and cannot afford it, do something else other than music to make their life much better.  If you have parents to take care of, spend the most time with them when they are alive and give up the gigs that don't count much.  Kung minsan, mapilit lang eh hindi naman talaga iyon ang talent at opportunidad.

Making music is totally a separate issue. But Boutique equipment does make the process more fun... By the way, Bon Jovi sells more records than the bluesmen and I enjoy them more than the bluesmen.  But I can appreciate the bluesmen -- so my point is that there are more people who don't like the blues than like the blues. So, they can continue making records with ever declining record sales and yet for each album they record -- they get their equipment upgraded.  So, lets stop using bluesmen as cliche examples of guitarists with lousy equipment.

[firemodel55]

dyan ako hindi agree... iba ang craftsmanship involved sa classical/flatop/archtop making.... pipili ka ng kahoy, itotono mo pa... yan Yaron barya lang yan pag bibili ka ng Monteleone etc

You are missing the point... iyung nga ang advantage ng hollowbody or acoustic -- pwede itono.  Ang electric walang remedyo kung maling pili ng kahoy.  There are more expensive guitars than Yaron but the only reason why I am buying him is because Monteleone cannot even produce a Les Paul on the level of Gil Yaron regardless of price.

[firemodel55]

para matapos to... sinong gagawa ng sounclip ala blind test tapos boboto tyo kung ano dun mga low end VS high end na gamit. BOTH Guitars and AMPS. Dapat perfect score. GO!  ng makita natin kung totoong may golden ears dito sa Pilipinas 

Eh kung ganyan ka pumili ng gitara at amp, panay bulok lang makukuha mo.  Suggestion ko, pumunta ka na lang sa Ultrasound Rehearsal New York at it i-renta ang Studio A para subukan lahat ng magandang amp.  Sugro i-renta mo rin ang totoong 59 nila roon.   

[maxi_musikero]

You are missing the point... iyung nga ang advantage ng hollowbody or acoustic -- pwede itono.  Ang electric walang remedyo kung maling pili ng kahoy.  There are more expensive guitars than Yaron but the only reason why I am buying him is because Monteleone cannot even produce a Les Paul on the level of Gil Yaron regardless of price.

i disagree with this.  kung mali ang pili ng kahoy sa electric, maraming remedyo.  good pickups, good amp and good pedals.  these will be able to mask the "dead-sounding" wood.  kahit sa website ni Gil Yaron, he refers to pickups when he talks about the tone - not the wood.

sa acoustic, pag mali na ang kahoy, wala nang remedyo kasi iisa lang ang voice ng acoustic.  it cannot hide behind a good amp or effects pedals.

[guitarwiz02]

Would Frank Zappa use a China-made amp if he was still alive today? The answer is, maybe. Who knows? We all know that Frank was an ardent experimentalist when it comes to guitars, amps, gear or to anything that has got something to do with music. He'd try and test anything.

[dantuts]

@firemodel55

listen to this link..

Monteleone cannot even produce a Les Paul on the level of Gil Yaron regardless of price

Gumawa ng kanta si Mark Knopfler tungkol kay monteleone, he looks to him as a "stradivarius" like. apparently in awe of his stringed instruments.

[firemodel55]

i disagree with this.  kung mali ang pili ng kahoy sa electric, maraming remedyo.  good pickups, good amp and good pedals.  these will be able to mask the "dead-sounding" wood.  kahit sa website ni Gil Yaron, he refers to pickups when he talks about the tone - not the wood.

sa acoustic, pag mali na ang kahoy, wala nang remedyo kasi iisa lang ang voice ng acoustic.  it cannot hide behind a good amp or effects pedals.

Well since I get to talk with Gil Yaron, we talk about wood.  Pickups are important after wood selection.  Why do you think he junks so much premium wood kung maayos lang iyon ng pickups?

Once a guitar is dead sounding, no pickups, no hardware, no amp and no pedals will save it.  Believe me, it ends up being sold in the classified as the only remedy.  Kung totoo ang sinasabi mo -- di wala ng magbebenta sa classifieds dahil na solusyonan na ang panget na gitara.  You have a long way to go to learn about tone...  I would like to cite my Goldtop story with Dan Chelsea.  Dan Chelsea in my trip to New York had offered me two 54 Goldtops each costing US$20,000.  One was mint and one was beat up- sira ang fingerboard, the paint was almost gone and had been painted over with red water color (yup it was not restored), the p90s pickup covers were cracked and obviously humming.  The neck was not yet set up properly.  Medyo corroded na ang wrap around. Dan wanted me to see it as is.  And guess what?  It had the tone that the mint 54 did not have.  Ang layo.  No amount of amp or pedals would have saved that mint 54 versus the tone, richness and magic of the beat up 54.  heh heh

[pitongjerome]

Suddenly, this thread ain't no fun for me no more... 

This arguing over luthiers and finishes... it's soooo circa 2005-2006. Mamaya ayan na rin yung mastodon ivory nut.... Hehehe.

still fun for me. hearing each others opinions are fun. what's not fun is if there are personal attacks na.

[guitarwiz02]

Well since I get to talk with Gil Yaron, we talk about wood.  Pickups are important after wood selection.  Why do you think he junks so much premium wood kung maayos lang iyon ng pickups?

Once a guitar is dead sounding, no pickups, no hardware, no amp and no pedals will save it.  Believe me, it ends up being sold in the classified as the only remedy.  Kung totoo ang sinasabi mo -- di wala ng magbebenta sa classifieds dahil na solusyonan na ang panget na gitara.  You have a long way to go to learn about tone...  I would like to cite my Goldtop story with Dan Chelsea.  Dan Chelsea in my trip to New York had offered me two 54 Goldtops each costing US$20,000.  One was mint and one was beat up- sira ang fingerboard, the paint was almost gone and had been painted over with red water color (yup it was not restored), the p90s pickup covers were cracked and obviously humming.  The neck was not yet set up properly.  Medyo corroded na ang wrap around. Dan wanted me to see it as is.  And guess what?  It had the tone that the mint 54 did not have.  Ang layo.  No amount of amp or pedals would have saved that mint 54 versus the tone, richness and magic of the beat up 54.  heh heh

Just because nagbenta ka sa classifieds e ibig sabihin pangit ang gear mo. There could be other reasons, y'know.

[maxi_musikero]

Well since I get to talk with Gil Yaron, we talk about wood.  Pickups are important after wood selection.  Why do you think he junks so much premium wood kung maayos lang iyon ng pickups?

he junks premium wood to show that he has high standards, given his price.  i daresay marketing, or maybe he just ran into some difficult wood planks.  but i'm sure there are so much more companies that worked with wood that are rejects to Gil Yaron and produced good sounding electrics.  IMO, it's more of workability, dryness and weight considerations with solidbody wood.  

Once a guitar is dead sounding, no pickups, no hardware, no amp and no pedals will save it.  Believe me, it ends up being sold in the classified as the only remedy.  Kung totoo ang sinasabi mo -- di wala ng magbebenta sa classifieds dahil na solusyonan na ang panget na gitara.  You have a long way to go to learn about tone...  I would like to cite my Goldtop story with Dan Chelsea.  Dan Chelsea in my trip to New York had offered me two 54 Goldtops each costing US$20,000.  One was mint and one was beat up- sira ang fingerboard, the paint was almost gone and had been painted over with red water color (yup it was not restored), the p90s pickup covers were cracked and obviously humming.  The neck was not yet set up properly.  Medyo corroded na ang wrap around. Dan wanted me to see it as is.  And guess what?  It had the tone that the mint 54 did not have.  Ang layo.  No amount of amp or pedals would have saved that mint 54 versus the tone, richness and magic of the beat up 54.  heh heh

a dead-sounding electric guitar is the sum of all its parts - plus the player.  of course there will be dead-sounding guitars - i'm not saying that there aren't - but it's not wholly dependent on the wood alone.  kaya naman maraming nasa classifieds kasi maraming gusto mag-upgrade eh.  it's directly proportional to budget.

i don't claim to know a lot about tone.  i'm just saying that there are a lot more ways to compensate electrics than acoustics.  in that 54 shootout, i can't imagine how the other 54 (beaten up as it is - broken fingerboard, no set-up and humming pickups) could have possibly sounded better than the mint one.  it defies logic.  i guess there will always be such instances with guitars.

[farseer]

Just to point out may panget rin na Goodall which I tested at the same time against the nice sounding Goodall... So for me, like electric guitars, I assess each guitar as unique and on a case by case basis.

baka uninspiring or average... wala pa akong nasubukan na panget w/ regards to goodall... Tsaka yun gusto mong Goodall jumbo ata right??? baka malakas lang yun volume... haha... the smaller models usually have better clarity and note separation... baka volume lang hinahanap mo

[free2rock]

he junks premium wood to show that he has high standards, given his price.  i daresay marketing, or maybe he just ran into some difficult wood planks.  but i'm sure there are so much more companies that worked with wood that are rejects to Gil Yaron and produced good sounding electrics.  IMO, it's more of workability, dryness and weight considerations with solidbody wood.  

I don't think ANY process in selecting wood is foolproof. What it assures however, is a high rate of getting a high quality guitar you just can't stop playing Of course, corollary to that, there may have been wood rejected that may have been worked into a great sounding guitar. But of course, that's simply conjecture--but still plausible, nonetheless.

[farseer]

Monteleone  and Yaron are not in the same league.... wag na icompare

[firemodel55]

Just because nagbenta ka sa classifieds e ibig sabihin pangit ang gear mo. There could be other reasons, y'know.

I can assure you that 95% sell because panget ang tunog.... the remaining 5% sell because they really need the cash or have a duplicate of the what they are selling.  Alam mo kasi, kung magandang tunog ng isang gitara talagang people hold onto it.  And given that good/great sounding guitars are rare indeed, kaya maraming benta sa classifieds.  Lets be honest with ourselves, if it was otherwise -- that 95% of the guitars being sold sa classifieds sound good -- then guitarists would be the dumbest lot of musicians for selling that many good sounding instruments.

[firemodel55]

Monteleone  and Yaron are not in the same league.... wag na icompare

In fairness, I am still a bit skeptical about Yaron's work in terms of wood selection but to be honest, I just don't see Monteleone to be as proficient as Yaron in wood selection -- maybe in working hollowbodies and all those trimmings magaling si Monteleone.  But for me, the monteleone still has to be heard and played by me.

Exquisite Hollow bodies for me, just a personal opinion, are like blinged up Ferrarris.  But there is nothing like a plain and simple F40 or F50 that delivers the goods were it matters.

[firemodel55]

he junks premium wood to show that he has high standards, given his price.  i daresay marketing, or maybe he just ran into some difficult wood planks.  but i'm sure there are so much more companies that worked with wood that are rejects to Gil Yaron and produced good sounding electrics.  IMO, it's more of workability, dryness and weight considerations with solidbody wood.  

a dead-sounding electric guitar is the sum of all its parts - plus the player.  of course there will be dead-sounding guitars - i'm not saying that there aren't - but it's not wholly dependent on the wood alone.  kaya naman maraming nasa classifieds kasi maraming gusto mag-upgrade eh.  it's directly proportional to budget.

i don't claim to know a lot about tone.  i'm just saying that there are a lot more ways to compensate electrics than acoustics.  in that 54 shootout, i can't imagine how the other 54 (beaten up as it is - broken fingerboard, no set-up and humming pickups) could have possibly sounded better than the mint one.  it defies logic.  i guess there will always be such instances with guitars.

By the way, up to this point in time, since Gil knows that I am picky and expect the guitar with most magic, he has put off mahogany selection.  He wants me to wait until he finds the mahogany to do justice to my requirements.  By the way, he understands magic that a lot of people on this forum have difficulty comprehending.  This despite the fact that he has continued to produce burst replicas.  So, for me, thats no marketing ploy.  Difficult wood planks he runs into many but for me as per request he has to get the creme de la creme.  You know why I get that service from him, kasi may understanding kami na mahirap makakuha ng magandang tunong na gitara.  Hindi niya solusyon ang pickups o ang hardware -- we go to the basic which is wood selection.  He will thrash a body after carving if it does not pass his tuning forks test.  Thats not marketing, thats hard work.  So, I am not after producing just a 'good' sounding electric -- I am after a GREAT sounding that looks as beautiful.

It does not defy logic, how I, Dan Chelsea and G.E. Smith can agree that the beat up 54 sounded better.  Its simple -- its 100% in the wood. Why? Because wood is the only component that ain't man made with so much variability -- logic that you cannot deny.

[pulpol]

By the way, up to this point in time, since Gil knows that I am picky and expect the guitar with most magic, he has put off mahogany selection.  He wants me to wait until he finds the mahogany to do justice to my requirements.  By the way, he understands magic that a lot of people on this forum have difficulty comprehending.  This despite the fact that he has continued to produce burst replicas.  So, for me, thats no marketing ploy.  Difficult wood planks he runs into many but for me as per request he has to get the creme de la creme.  You know why I get that service from him, kasi may understanding kami na mahirap makakuha ng magandang tunong na gitara.  Hindi niya solusyon ang pickups o ang hardware -- we go to the basic which is wood selection.  He will thrash a body after carving if it does not pass his tuning forks test.  Thats not marketing, thats hard work.  So, I am not after producing just a 'good' sounding electric -- I am after a GREAT sounding that looks as beautiful.

It does not defy logic, how I, Dan Chelsea and G.E. Smith can agree that the beat up 54 sounded better.  Its simple -- its 100% in the wood. Why? Because wood is the only component that ain't man made with so much variability -- logic that you cannot deny.

How do you define MAGIC sir

is it the TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEE IIINNNNNGGGG?

haha

Seriously, How will you be able to produce great tones? how will you be able to prove to me or to us, or influence poeple with your points of view and beliefs when you arent that a good player?... no offense sir but thats the truth...

many guitar legends can produce GREAT tones, can express their Music Spiritually, Emotionaly, with alll of their hearts and soul without the MAGIC that you are talking about...

[nathanmanansala]

odd though, after 11 pages, i havent seen one post saying "i'd gig with that." i know i wouldn't.

maybe i need to read through everything ulit. slow day at work e.

[stringman]

I must agree that a guitar with good craftsmanship is really way ahead of the cheaper but not lesser sounding guitars.


But.........................................

What's the use of having an expensive well crafted guitar if you can't even express you self in playing?

A good player with even the most rubbish instrument can make a good sound, not that perfect but the magic word would be "singing". Yes someone can make a guitar sing beautifully even though it's cheap.

So great tone isn't always expensive, yes!

[Al_Librero]

odd though, after 11 pages, i havent seen one post saying "i'd gig with that." i know i wouldn't.

maybe i need to read through everything ulit. slow day at work e.

onga e... i wouldn't even bother thinking about building one. may nakakalat pa man din akong strat neck dito. hahaha...

[boybangs]

Nope. Just to rule out the factors you've mentioned in your argument that the video was captured by a mobile phone camera and the Baker through Elegee's amp.

[shodawmoon]

I must agree that a guitar with good craftsmanship is really way ahead of the cheaper but not lesser sounding guitars.


But.........................................

What's the use of having an expensive well crafted guitar if you can't even express you self in playing?

A good player with even the most rubbish instrument can make a good sound, not that perfect but the magic word would be "singing". Yes someone can make a guitar sing beautifully even though it's cheap.

So great tone isn't always expensive, yes!

I agree.