Dissecting HIYAW... the science, the psycho-acoustic nature, and the fallacies

[firemodel55]

For me, hiyaw is overall balance on the fretboard.
But if it is termed hiyaw here in our shores, what is the term they use in other countries?

Hiyaw is not just overall balance -- its more but overall balance is but one attribute that Hiyaw serves as indicator of.  I think the Suhr guys call it MOJO, which brings me to the point that Hiyaw is the perfect one indicator to determine superior character in a guitar.  Its one of those characteristics that will determine the best sounding and feeling electric guitars on earth.  It helps you determine the top 1% of electric guitars.

[firemodel55]

kelangan mo ba talaga ng "hiyaw" para maging maganda ang tunog mo? 

Yes...  When it comes to making equipment sound better.... it is more important than your own hands.

[stringman]

Hiyaw is not just overall balance -- its more but overall balance is but one attribute that Hiyaw serves as indicator of.  I think the Suhr guys call it MOJO, which brings me to the point that Hiyaw is the perfect one indicator to determine superior character in a guitar.  Its one of those characteristics that will determine the best sounding and feeling electric guitars on earth.  It helps you determine the top 1% of electric guitars.

I like that..... MOJO....

[spankyrigor]

Just to clarify my experience with hiyaw -- it happens in all rooms if your guitar has it.  It happens on all notes. 

so it's not bloom then. Hiyaw is different.

Guys can we try to look for another word for it? The word "Hiyaw" for me kasi connotes something else, more like a sound tied to a certain action:

1. akin to what Jeff Beck does when he bends a note and he flips his toggle switch quickly from neck to bridge position.
2. bending a note and toeing down on a wah pedal at the same time.
3. picking softly at a flurry of notes and then picking violently at one note then bending it.

Mojo for me is a better word.

[stringman]

so it's not bloom then. Hiyaw is different.

Guys can we try to look for another word for it? The word "Hiyaw" for me kasi connotes something else, more like a sound tied to a certain action:

1. akin to what Jeff Beck does when he bends a note and he flips his toggle switch quickly from neck to bridge position.
2. bending a note and toeing down on a wah pedal at the same time.
3. picking softly at a flurry of notes and then picking violently at one note then bending it.

Mojo for me is a better word.

Back in the 80's i've heard of the lingo hiyaw with guitar players. But it was more of pinch harmonics. If we define "hiyaw" in English it simply means "scream". And overall balance on the fretboard is not how you would describe a screaming guitar. Spanky is right, "MOJO" is a better term.

[firemodel55]

well, i can describe that it really makes hiyaw, (screaming, literally speaking)..  which for me is like a swelling sustain of some sort..

but.. i don't really find it special (if that's the real hiyaw as Arie described).. some might like that swelling sustain, or not..
_____________________________________

what i dont like about these topics is that if you don't have that characteristic in your guitar, somebody would say your guitars are crap.

next thing, if you don't hear what they are hearing (for example, swirl, hiyaw) about their $10,000 gear and not understand why there is a hype about it, they'd say your ears are noob..

My four guitars all have hiyaw to varying degrees but have a minimum hiyaw standard and are keepers. More than just having hiyaw, they are truly four guitars that defines what it is to be an electric guitar player -- genre defining. It also takes a lot of luck to find one these guitars and are truly appreciated on expensive amps and speaker cabinets.  Cheapo stuff (amps, effects, etc.) from Perfect Pitch, Audiophile, Lazer, RJ, etc. do not do these guitars justice. In short, to hear the full the potential of these guitars, boutique equipment (as a minimum -- by the way, not all so-called boutique equipment sounds good) has to be bought abroad.  No made in China or Asia stuff to muck up the signal chain.

A real recent anecdote.  I usually torment Arie about his Tele because Arie knows I just find his tele above average.  But we can't just find anything better that is affordable so we usually joke each other and insult each other's guitars.  I did mention in previous posts that Arie has retired his Strat (actually he gave it to his son) because my Suhr Strat just beats it in all aspects as a magical instrument.   We would usually reserve the Suhr Strat vs. Tokai Tele match to testing other equipment such as amps and effects. Recently however that all changed with the arrival of the Cornell Plexi 18/20 combo which in some way distinguishes and enhances guitars in their best character & sound.  To make a long story short, the Tokai Tele just sounded inferior to the Suhr Strat.  And Arie recognized it.  But we were at a loss because we knew that there was NO way that any modification will ever make the Tokai Tele sound as good as the Suhr Strat into the Cornell which at this point in time is really a US$7,000 combination.  In short, wala kaming mahanap no solusyon para makahabol ang Tokai Tele.  Was the difference significant ... Yes it was significant enough para mawalan ng gana si Arie i-play ang Tokai Tele niya.  But does it mean that the Tokai Tele should be junked?  No, because I still believe it sounds better than 90% of the guitars out there and clearly Arie has used it before and has survived with it.  So was Arie's experience on a superior guitar both with hiyaw but more exhibited in the Suhr Strat thru the Cornell life changing?  Yes it was.

At the end of the day, only the most persistent and expensive tone quests will yield superior sounding equipment with character BUT at the end of the day, it might NOT be worth your effort because it plainly takes so much.  Those instruments are there -- but only a few of them -- and will really make 99% of other equipment and guitars sound bad.  Unless you invest the dedication needed, which I am willing to continue pursuing, life's too short to look for tone.  I just consider myself lucky to get the opportunity to own such instruments which a majority will hear much less ever will ever own.  In the end, seeing the disappointment in my best friend's face with his Tele, made me realize that superior tone and character is NOT for everyone and not worth discussing if everyone has different budgets (specially small ones) because no one really wants to admit that he is buying crap equipment.  So, just enjoy whatever you have at any moment in time and if something you hear wants to make you look for tone ... JUST STOP because you really can't afford it.

Yes if you are not used to hear hiyaw regularly than you are really a noob to it...  But its really hard to appreciate it if you only hear it once a year and your guitar does not have it.

[KASALANAN]

great read. atleast walang fighting an bashing dito sa thread na to. waiting for more insights

[deltaslim]

I'll say it again: No need to invoke mojo, magic, luck, price, buying capacity, etc. Read pp. 198--205 of Beauty of the Burst. Its all explained there in plain language and simple physics. in a nutshell, its a kind of sustained and very dynamic double tone created by the whole structure of the guitar with all components interacting and influencing each other. Obviously, other guitars, not just LPs, can and do have this property. Unfortunately, the technique of designing and building for this property is not common, public knowledge. Having said that, although not all guitars have this property, a guitar that does have it can come from anywhere (paraphrasing Anton Ego from Ratatouile).

Call it what you want. At the end of the day, if science can't explain it, it's all based on faith and we will never improve our knowledge base. Paulit ulit at paikot-ikot lang usapan.

[notlimhxcx]

I'll say it again: No need to invoke mojo, magic, luck, price, buying capacity, etc. Read pp. 198--205 of Beauty of the Burst. Its all explained there in plain language and simple physics. in a nutshell, its a kind of sustained and very dynamic double tone created by the whole structure of the guitar with all components interacting and influencing each other. Obviously, other guitars, not just LPs, can and do have this property. Unfortunately, the technique of designing and building for this property is not common, public knowledge. Having said that, although not all guitars have this property, a guitar that does have it can come from anywhere (paraphrasing Anton Ego from Ratatouile).

Call it what you want. At the end of the day, if science can't explain it, it's all based on faith and we will never improve our knowledge base. Paulit ulit at paikot-ikot lang usapan.

i rarely, if at all, agree with anyone's point of view here in this forum because i find 90% of topics here rather childish or invoking. but this post, i give a +100.

[teleclem]

I'll say it again: No need to invoke mojo, magic, luck, price, buying capacity, etc. Read pp. 198--205 of Beauty of the Burst. Its all explained there in plain language and simple physics. in a nutshell, its a kind of sustained and very dynamic double tone created by the whole structure of the guitar with all components interacting and influencing each other. Obviously, other guitars, not just LPs, can and do have this property. Unfortunately, the technique of designing and building for this property is not common, public knowledge. Having said that, although not all guitars have this property, a guitar that does have it can come from anywhere (paraphrasing Anton Ego from Ratatouile).

Call it what you want. At the end of the day, if science can't explain it, it's all based on faith and we will never improve our knowledge base. Paulit ulit at paikot-ikot lang usapan.

Thanks for that. Pretty informative. it's something not commonly discussed in foreign forums, but at least we have an explanation there na hindi from here. I haven't really come across it in any foreign articles, forums (tgp, tdpri), or similar places.

[samuelfianza]

[bgarcia]

aside from guitar hospital, who are the authorities who can approve or 100% validate if a certain guitar has this "hiyaw"?

Going to Arie is perhaps the only way to avoid guess work. Others will give you their own interpretation which may or may not be 100% accurate to Arie's definition and intent.

I'm not discounting the possibilty that others can demo hiyaw but if I want to be 100% sure, I'l go straight to the source.

[notlimhxcx]

ayun kami ah!

[firemodel55]

I'll say it again: No need to invoke mojo, magic, luck, price, buying capacity, etc. Read pp. 198--205 of Beauty of the Burst. Its all explained there in plain language and simple physics. in a nutshell, its a kind of sustained and very dynamic double tone created by the whole structure of the guitar with all components interacting and influencing each other. Obviously, other guitars, not just LPs, can and do have this property. Unfortunately, the technique of designing and building for this property is not common, public knowledge. Having said that, although not all guitars have this property, a guitar that does have it can come from anywhere (paraphrasing Anton Ego from Ratatouile).

Call it what you want. At the end of the day, if science can't explain it, it's all based on faith and we will never improve our knowledge base. Paulit ulit at paikot-ikot lang usapan.

So is Watanabe explaining why at least 80% of real bursts sound bad? How come the other 20% sound good then?  Its luck and mojo.  I think medyo paikot-ikot lang ang simple physics which conveniently forgets the other 80% that sound bad to explain the 20% that sound good.

There is also another contradiction in your statement... If you believe that Iwanade's claim is universal and a matter of SIMPLE PHYSICS, how can you claim that OTHER guitars can have it?  Lahat ba ng OTHER guitars ay set neck na may tenon at maple top?  Lahat ba ng OTHER guitars ay gawang mahogany lang?  Etc. etc. Eh bakit ang Suhr Modern ko na naka floyd ay mas tunog les paul kaysa sa ibang mga Gibson USA na historic (inertia block theory ni Iwanade)?

[pitongjerome]

I did mention in previous posts that Arie has retired his Strat (actually he gave it to his son) because my Suhr Strat just beats it in all aspects as a magical instrument.  In short, wala kaming mahanap no solusyon para makahabol ang Tokai Tele.  Was the difference significant ... Yes it was significant enough para mawalan ng gana si Arie i-play ang Tokai Tele niya.


Yes if you are not used to hear hiyaw regularly than you are really a noob to it...  But its really hard to appreciate it if you only hear it once a year and your guitar does not have it.

well hindi ako ganun, na mawawalang gana gamitin ang guitar dahil sa may mas maganda rito.. may nananaig parin sakin ang love for playing guitar and music. whatever i have is enough for me..

but still, ang stand ko,  its all about preference..

[kopiako]

Akala ko yung HIYAW ay pick squeals hindi pala.

[pualux]

sana may magparinig sakin kung ano ang hiyaw lol

[deltaslim]

So is Watanabe explaining why at least 80% of real bursts sound bad? How come the other 20% sound good then?  Its luck and mojo.  I think medyo paikot-ikot lang ang simple physics which conveniently forgets the other 80% that sound bad to explain the 20% that sound good.

There is also another contradiction in your statement... If you believe that Iwanade's claim is universal and a matter of SIMPLE PHYSICS, how can you claim that OTHER guitars can have it?  Lahat ba ng OTHER guitars ay set neck na may tenon at maple top?  Lahat ba ng OTHER guitars ay gawang mahogany lang?  Etc. etc. Eh bakit ang Suhr Modern ko na naka floyd ay mas tunog les paul kaysa sa ibang mga Gibson USA na historic (inertia block theory ni Iwanade)?

I won't bother debating with you since (1) you did not read/understand my post, (2) you are trying to put words into my mouth, (3) you are making unverified assumptions, and (4) I can't understand the sense, logic, or point of what you are saying/claiming.

What books like BOTB and good guitar construction/engineering books do is simply describe and empirically verify what goes on physically in a guitar.  Pretty hard to argue with science and facts.

Faith, on the other hand, is a personal thing and history has shown that religion and science don't mix well, so ...

[fusionenigma]

may "hiyaw" din ba mga acoustic guitars / jazzboxes? 

[spankyrigor]

Akala ko yung HIYAW ay pick squeals hindi pala.

yun nga eh. the term itself is misleading. Which is why I vote to name it something else.

[firemodel55]

I won't bother debating with you since (1) you did not read/understand my post, (2) you are trying to put words into my mouth, (3) you are making unverified assumptions, and (4) I can't understand the sense, logic, or point of what you are saying/claiming.

What books like BOTB and good guitar construction/engineering books do is simply describe and empirically verify what goes on physically in a guitar.  Pretty hard to argue with science and facts.

Faith, on the other hand, is a personal thing and history has shown that religion and science don't mix well, so ...

I understood you perfectly:

On point#1, there is such a thing as luck in picking out a guitar thats why I cannot even fully endorse all the Fender guitars at Yamaha Buendia store in the same way I cannot endorse all the Fender Custom Shops at Ludlow New York.

On point#2, that there is magic.  My suhr modern was one serial apart from exactly the same suhr modern with the same materials and configuration.  The only difference was the color, yet my suhr modern which only one serial higher, sounded rich and alive while the other one sounded dead.

On point#3, buying capacity is true for high end instruments that deliver the goods.  I wish it were otherwise but it is just plain NOT so.  I am not saying all high end instruments sounds great or good but the great ones are unfortunately expensive.  I will say this -- No Ibanez Prestige will ever match my Grey Suhr Modern.  Period.  I tried very hard to look for an ibanez Prestige to match the Suhr and NO such luck.  I also want to own a Prestige but sorry talaga palyado laban sa magandang suhr modern maski anong sulok ako ng mundo pumunta.

On point#4, ano nga ba inexplain ng Beauty of the Burst?  If you read it again, its trying to get technical and yet does NOT review each individual Burst in its covers with regard to its so called simple explanation.  I will assume its trying to explain a good sounding burst (lets give Yashuro the benefit of the doubt).  Eh anong explanation niya sa panget na burst?  Wala.  Kaso mas maraming panget na burst so what is physically going on in a bad sounding burst?  Its never explained and thus... its not science nor is it fact.  Even Yashuro does not claim it to be science and fact anywhere in his book.  Ikaw lang nag claim na science and fact and ang mismong author hindi nag claim niyon.

So if you think electric guitar is more of a science, its more religion than you think....

[trem3]

parinig nga...     

[page8six....]

Yes...  When it comes to making equipment sound better.... it is more important than your own hands.

ah so kahit ang mga kamay na hindi marunong mag gitara basta ang guitar nya ay may hiyaw ok na?

[trem3]

ah so kahit ang mga kamay na hindi marunong mag gitara basta ang guitar nya ay may hiyaw ok na?

Mali ka kapatid... mali ka.

Ang ibig nya sabihin, basta mamahalin ang gitara mo ok na, kahit hindi marunong magitara. Magician ka na rin daw...

[pitongjerome]

I understood you perfectly:

On point#1, there is such a thing as luck in picking out a guitar thats why I cannot even fully endorse all the Fender guitars at Yamaha Buendia store in the same way I cannot endorse all the Fender Custom Shops at Ludlow New York.

and suhr guitars