hulika

Author Topic: Dissecting HIYAW... the science, the psycho-acoustic nature, and the fallacies  (Read 18505 times)

Offline stringman

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its quite a nice tone, regardless....

but a simple yes or no will do. If its "yes" then we would now have a solid example of this hiyaw in his head. or if its somewhat captured a little then we now have a little picture of what the hiyaw in his head is and from there find out what it properties it didnt capture. if its totally not captured by this recording, then my useless opinion about this hiyaw will remain that hiyaw is plain and simple BS....

its the tone in his head we're trying to understand, he calls it hiyaw, and claims 95% of the world's guitars dont have it. Maybe it really is just in his head.

the overtones and double tones that were given as examples have not been acknowledged as what hiyaw really is... fm55 has yet to say "yes joric, that's the one I've been trying to say all along"

that swirly effect that sounds (pardon me) absolutely ridiculous is yet to be heard by everyone trying to explain what this hiyaw is. Apparently skunky has heard it and says it simply can't be captured, I don't know why though. I know if you can hear it, it can be captured. If it vibrates the air then a microphone (probably an expensive one) can capture it.

The only way we will be able to settle what this hiyaw really is, is for FM55 to put a finger on something we can all share. A clip, a recording, any reference at all. May not even be that particular guitar, just any one of the remaining 5%. Then we would know what he is really talking about and then all dissing of this and that can be justified or nullified. A step toward enlightenment and peace.

What all these strong arguments have been doing for years is make us run around in circles.

In simple laymans terms...... "Feeling lang niya" :lol:
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones.

Offline deltaslim

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Alex, with all due respect, I've taken a couple of my own guitars in the past to Arie when i used to avail of his services. He confirmed the "hiyaw" presence in them. In a clinic of mine I demonstrated an Elegee custom that had that quality. And during the mega pedal shoot-out that i volunteered myself as a demo-boy, alot of the participants noticed that my Greco Strat had that factor too. Additionally, Joey Puyat and i have had discussions about it, his white strat's got the mojo too.

I wouldn't be dipping my finger in this topic if i "didn't know sh%T" about what I was talking about or "playing". I'm just sayin'...

You're making us look like idiots man  :-D take it easy...


Don't worry, Anton, I don't think its you who's looking like an idiot here... ;-)

... plus many will agree that you are one of the very few people who can coax hiyaw out of a seemingly ordinary guitar. The better the player, the easier and nicer the hiyaw. Those who can't play will not be able to coax the same sounds as the better player.  That's the sad part.

 

Offline burnsbhm

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Don't worry, Anton, I don't think its you who's looking like an idiot here... ;-)

... plus many will agree that you are one of the very few people who can coax hiyaw out of a seemingly ordinary guitar. The better the player, the easier and nicer the hiyaw. Those who can't play will not be able to coax the same sounds as the better player.  That's the sad part.

 

Joric, if ever God made our paths cross.....paiinumin kita! Ngayon lang ako sobrang nag-agree sa isang post!
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Online psychic_sushi

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Don't worry, Anton, I don't think its you who's looking like an idiot here... ;-)

... plus many will agree that you are one of the very few people who can coax hiyaw out of a seemingly ordinary guitar. The better the player, the easier and nicer the hiyaw. Those who can't play will not be able to coax the same sounds as the better player.  That's the sad part.

 

I owe you a drink buddy, cheers!  :-D  8-) if we are talking solely about on the "harmonic bloom" aspect of a note, there are techniques to achieve that. IMHO, it's just a bonus to chance upon an instrument with that quality. If folks feel that it's an "end all, be all" factor for a guitar to be great then so be it. We're all entitled to our own dementia.  :-P

Besides, it's not like I'm going to be HIYAWING my ass at every opportunity during every solo...  :-P
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Offline EST2TELE

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Don't worry, Anton, I don't think its you who's looking like an idiot here... ;-)

... plus many will agree that you are one of the very few people who can coax hiyaw out of a seemingly ordinary guitar. The better the player, the easier and nicer the hiyaw. Those who can't play will not be able to coax the same sounds as the better player.  That's the sad part.

 
AMEN!!!!


Offline EST2TELE

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could it be that HIYAW is not only heard but also 'felt' by both player and audience hence making it hard to describe or capture?  just a thought. :-)

Offline maxi_musikero

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i almost got sad when i played my strat and i didn't hear any HIYAW but then i read this...


Don't worry, Anton, I don't think its you who's looking like an idiot here... ;-)

... plus many will agree that you are one of the very few people who can coax hiyaw out of a seemingly ordinary guitar. The better the player, the easier and nicer the hiyaw. Those who can't play will not be able to coax the same sounds as the better player.  That's the sad part.

...and it revived me!  :lol:

guitar playing skill.  is and always has been.  :-)
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Offline trem3

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i almost got sad when i played my strat and i didn't hear any HIYAW but then i read this...

...and it revived me!  :lol:

guitar playing skill.  is and always has been.  :-)

Wag kasi magpapaniwala... As I said nakita ko na ang video, FM55 and his Baker. NO HIYAW WHATSOEVER! Kahit itanong mo pa yata kay Elegee kung may narinig sya, sasabihin nya WALA.

Kung whale bends, MERON, pati gitara ko merong whale bend.

HIYAW? F it!

(sorry ka-badtrip na kasi)
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Offline pitongjerome

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Wag kasi magpapaniwala... As I said nakita ko na ang video, FM55 and his Baker. NO HIYAW WHATSOEVER! Kahit itanong mo pa yata kay Elegee kung may narinig sya, sasabihin nya WALA.

Kung whale bends, MERON, pati gitara ko merong whale bend.

HIYAW? F it!

(sorry ka-badtrip na kasi)

this may start something...
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline bugoy

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LMFAO  :lol:

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with much respect....

I'd like to believe that this hiyaw is not just a hallucination born from an excessive expense which led to a particular level of guilt that FM55 can't justify on his own, therefore imposed on everyone else to be required on a great guitar, to justify that the purchase was worth it because of a magical characteristic found nowhere else or only in 5% of the world's guitars. But I just can't help but think otherwise, because:

a. He refuses to specify tones he likes or accepts. On one occasion he brought about links to a Plexi replica-maker's sound clips of a Gil Yaron LP, when asked of his opinion on the tone in the recording or if the tone was acceptable to him, his bottom-line answer was "ask the guy who made the clip and that would be my opinion". Again, I make another question on this thread and is yet unanswered "Did the recording on the Bamboo record, that used the particular hiyaw-guitar, capture the hiyaw HE keeps on talking about?" I don't see any other plausible reason why FM55 avoids putting a reference (be it not the exact tone) or a more solid idea of the tone in his head for us apart from the fact that when he does so we will be able to determine FOR OURSELVES if the tone is good or not and he would no longer be able to argue that his tone is better than everyone elses subsequently de-justifying his $$$ purchase.

b. The HIYAW IN HIS HEAD (lets call it that because after 10 pages he has not truly acknowledged if any of the definitions from Skunky to Slim and everything in between were correct nor accurate, and for all we know we could still be discussing different HIYAW's)... to continue... The HIYAW IN HIS HEAD remains in his head. Until he says "Yes! That is the Hiyaw I am talking about" to one of the definitions given, the HIYAW IN HIS HEAD can still be different from the ones in each of ours. Again, I don't see any other plausible reason why he has not acknowledge a definition to be true apart from the fact that when he does so we will be able to determine FOR OURSELVES if the tone is good or not and he would no longer be able to argue that his tone is better than everyone elses subsequently de-justifying his $$$ purchase.

that's just me and the thoughts I can't help but think... and I say this with all due respect.

and notice... the absence of low-blows in my posts in this thread. that's respect for TS appeal for no fighting

Offline juan_portnoy

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with much respect....

I'd like to believe that this hiyaw is not just a hallucination born from an excessive expense which led to a particular level of guilt that FM55 can't justify on his own, therefore imposed on everyone else to be required on a great guitar, to justify that the purchase was worth it because of a magical characteristic found nowhere else or only in 5% of the world's guitars. But I just can't help but think otherwise, because:

a. He refuses to specify tones he likes or accepts. On one occasion he brought about links to a Plexi replica-maker's sound clips of a Gil Yaron LP, when asked of his opinion on the tone in the recording or if the tone was acceptable to him, his bottom-line answer was "ask the guy who made the clip and that would be my opinion". Again, I make another question on this thread and is yet unanswered "Did the recording on the Bamboo record, that used the particular hiyaw-guitar, capture the hiyaw HE keeps on talking about?" I don't see any other plausible reason why FM55 avoids putting a reference (be it not the exact tone) or a more solid idea of the tone in his head for us apart from the fact that when he does so we will be able to determine FOR OURSELVES if the tone is good or not and he would no longer be able to argue that his tone is better than everyone elses subsequently de-justifying his $$$ purchase.

b. The HIYAW IN HIS HEAD (lets call it that because after 10 pages he has not truly acknowledged if any of the definitions from Skunky to Slim and everything in between were correct nor accurate, and for all we know we could still be discussing different HIYAW's)... to continue... The HIYAW IN HIS HEAD remains in his head. Until he says "Yes! That is the Hiyaw I am talking about" to one of the definitions given, the HIYAW IN HIS HEAD can still be different from the ones in each of ours. Again, I don't see any other plausible reason why he has not acknowledge a definition to be true apart from the fact that when he does so we will be able to determine FOR OURSELVES if the tone is good or not and he would no longer be able to argue that his tone is better than everyone elses subsequently de-justifying his $$$ purchase.

that's just me and the thoughts I can't help but think... and I say this with all due respect.

and notice... the absence of low-blows in my posts in this thread. that's respect for TS appeal for no fighting

Very well said.
We're all entitled to our own dementia.  :-P

Offline bryanarzaga

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I would really like to hear FM55's baker guitar in person. I don't want to play it, just hear it side by side a gold top Les Paul or any high end guitar (on the same rig) played by a better guitar player forumite. I don't want a recording of it. A recording wont do justice kahit Royer R-121 + SM57 on a 12inch tape ang gamitin niyan . I want to hear the Baker breath on a closed cab 4x12.  


the goldtop might as well be a yaron..anything else alex considers not worth his time..

In simple laymans terms...... "Feeling lang niya" :lol:

 :lol:

Offline deltaslim

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I owe you a drink buddy, cheers!  :-D  8-) if we are talking solely about on the "harmonic bloom" aspect of a note, there are techniques to achieve that. IMHO, it's just a bonus to chance upon an instrument with that quality. If folks feel that it's an "end all, be all" factor for a guitar to be great then so be it. We're all entitled to our own dementia.  :-P

Besides, it's not like I'm going to be HIYAWING my ass at every opportunity during every solo...  :-P

Well said.

Honestly, I think that (harmonic bloom) is only what what Alex is referring to. It's plain logic: hiyaw is an onomatopoeia. It refers to a high pitched sound. If it's a sound higher pitched than that produced by the fundamental, then it's a harmonic. Plain and simple.

Despite all the smokes and mirrors, I think that's all Alex's concept of hiyaw is limited to. Very early in this thread I already mentioned my theory that hiyaw is only one byproduct of double tones/overtones present in good guitars that dynamically produces sounds with just one pluck. The best acoustic/guitar engineers define tone in those dynamic but empirical terms.  That's a larger and more fundamental concept than just harmonic bloom aka hiyaw.

And as I and many others have said before, hiyaw is not necessarily a desired quality in all genres of music. And even if a guitar has it, it takes playing ability to coax it out.  A guitar doesn't produce hiyaw by itself!!!


Wag kasi magpapaniwala... As I said nakita ko na ang video, FM55 and his Baker. NO HIYAW WHATSOEVER! Kahit itanong mo pa yata kay Elegee kung may narinig sya, sasabihin nya WALA.

In addition, I've heard that guitar in the hands of a real player in a live band setting: no hiyaw either. If the player didn't purposefully make it hiyaw, that only backs up the contention about the player's role in hiyaw production and his musical intention.


with much respect....

I'd like to believe that this hiyaw is not just a hallucination born from an excessive expense which led to a particular level of guilt that FM55 can't justify on his own, therefore imposed on everyone else to be required on a great guitar, to justify that the purchase was worth it because of a magical characteristic found nowhere else or only in 5% of the world's guitars. But I just can't help but think otherwise, because:

a. He refuses to specify tones he likes or accepts. On one occasion he brought about links to a Plexi replica-maker's sound clips of a Gil Yaron LP, when asked of his opinion on the tone in the recording or if the tone was acceptable to him, his bottom-line answer was "ask the guy who made the clip and that would be my opinion". Again, I make another question on this thread and is yet unanswered "Did the recording on the Bamboo record, that used the particular hiyaw-guitar, capture the hiyaw HE keeps on talking about?" I don't see any other plausible reason why FM55 avoids putting a reference (be it not the exact tone) or a more solid idea of the tone in his head for us apart from the fact that when he does so we will be able to determine FOR OURSELVES if the tone is good or not and he would no longer be able to argue that his tone is better than everyone elses subsequently de-justifying his $$$ purchase.

b. The HIYAW IN HIS HEAD (lets call it that because after 10 pages he has not truly acknowledged if any of the definitions from Skunky to Slim and everything in between were correct nor accurate, and for all we know we could still be discussing different HIYAW's)... to continue... The HIYAW IN HIS HEAD remains in his head. Until he says "Yes! That is the Hiyaw I am talking about" to one of the definitions given, the HIYAW IN HIS HEAD can still be different from the ones in each of ours. Again, I don't see any other plausible reason why he has not acknowledge a definition to be true apart from the fact that when he does so we will be able to determine FOR OURSELVES if the tone is good or not and he would no longer be able to argue that his tone is better than everyone elses subsequently de-justifying his $$$ purchase.

that's just me and the thoughts I can't help but think... and I say this with all due respect.

and notice... the absence of low-blows in my posts in this thread. that's respect for TS appeal for no fighting

Don't hold your breath... Giving an example will destroy the illusion of exclusivity, mojo, magic, unobtainium... hence he won't do it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 09:36:36 AM by deltaslim »

Offline micr0chimp

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Aysus...ang lumalabas e wala nanaman tayong mga alam?  Serves us right.  We should've seen that coming.  :lol:

Offline guitarman8294

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  A guitar doesn't produce hiyaw by itself!!!


This. well quoted sir.

Offline maxi_musikero

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I'd like to believe that this hiyaw is not just a hallucination born from an excessive expense which led to a particular level of guilt that FM55 can't justify on his own, therefore imposed on everyone else to be required on a great guitar, to justify that the purchase was worth it because of a magical characteristic found nowhere else or only in 5% of the world's guitars. But I just can't help but think otherwise, because:

i think this is exactly it.  right on the button.  it's like eating in an overly expensive Japanese resto and saying that their salmon sashimi has something magical that is missing in Teriyaki Boy or something.
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Offline pitongjerome

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therfore, the science, the psycho-acoustic nature, and the fallacies of hiyaw have been answered.
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline skunkyfunk

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@challengeofthegobots

I have been recording for 12 years now, 8 years of which professionally.  It is my job and chosen career and I can tell you with a straight face that  RECORDING, no matter  how high end the equipment and topnotch the acoustics of the venue  is, will always have a less-than-perfect representation of the source.  Yes, even with your $2,000 Neumann mics and $3,000 mic preamps.  Because in itself, digital media (even at 96KHz) is DISCRETE DATA.  Everything you hear in the real world is continuous over the time domain and no matter how advanced our recording technology is, you can never ever replicate the source 100%.

Put it this way... Have you heard a DW Neil Peart signature snare?  A lot claim that it is the holy grail of DW snares.  But do the present Rush recordings capture that?  I don't think so.  Now if you focus on capturing the snare drum alone, there will be other factors that you may not be able to capture perfectly, such as, how much attack does the snare produce?  Timbre can easily be captured, but those transients of different degrees are pretty hard to replicate.  That is why recordings just serve as a GUIDE to buying gear.

Back to hiyaw, Hiyaw can be recorded partially but it is not very appreciable.  In fact, I can get an average-sounding guitar and cheat the recording process (maybe slap in a little compression and do some artificial chorusing and time delays) and claim it has hiyaw.  And then, everyone will start buying into it.  Bottomline is, the special properties of hiyaw can only be appreciable if you PLAY the guitar as opposed to being part of the audience.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 10:56:35 AM by skunkyfunk »

Offline bugoy

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LMFAO last night.. still LMFAO  :lol:

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@skunky

i mean no disrespect, throwing in your resume does give you credibility on the matter although common sense trumps credentials at this point. I agree that you can never replicate any sound 100%. But who's asking for a 100%? A silhouette of the sound may even be enough to point us out at a direction to understanding this myth (until this is defined, I can't think of a better word for it).

How about 50% of it? Was it captured in the Bamboo recording? You can recognize color even at 50% in the dark. You can still appreciate a good movie even if its not HD. You can tell a Benz form a Toyota by just its shadows. How in the world can we not appreciate spectacular bended notes with uber sweet overtones oozing with mojo even in the crappiest of recording scenarios like an P850 Xenon Mic thru a P1255 Acesonic Karaoke Mixer you can easily purchase in Hypermart.

@challengeofthegobots

I have been recording for 12 years now, 8 years of which professionally.  It is my job and chosen career and I can tell you with a straight face that  RECORDING, no matter  how high end the equipment and topnotch the acoustics of the venue  is, will always have a less-than-perfect representation of the source.  Yes, even with your $2,000 Neumann mics and $3,000 mic preamps.  Because in itself, digital media (even at 96KHz) is DISCRETE DATA.  Everything you hear in the real world is continuous over the time domain and no matter how advanced our recording technology is, you can never ever replicate the source 100%.

Put it this way... Have you heard a DW Neil Peart signature snare?  A lot claim that it is the holy grail of DW snares.  But do the present Rush recordings capture that?  I don't think so.  Now if you focus on capturing the snare drum alone, there will be other factors that you may not be able to capture perfectly, such as, how much attack does the snare produce?  Timbre can easily be captured, but those transients of different degrees are pretty hard to replicate.  That is why recordings just serve as a GUIDE to buying gear.

Back to hiyaw, Hiyaw can be recorded partially but it is not very appreciable.  In fact, I can get an average-sounding guitar and cheat the recording process (maybe slap in a little compression and do some artificial chorusing and time delays) and claim it has hiyaw.  And then, everyone will start buying into it.  Bottomline is, the special properties of hiyaw can only be appreciable if you PLAY the guitar as opposed to being part of the audience.

Please do, so we can all have an idea of the hiyaw in YOUR head and I hope FM55 agrees that it sounds like the hiyaw in his. Also I hope you be generous enough to share the process on how you achieved the hiyaw-cheat, so the rest of us cant-afford's can arrive nearer to it with our humble pedalboards. (thats if we even like hiyaw in the first place)

Offline bugoy

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eto hupaw
:lol:

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eto hupaw
 :lol:

Hupaw! :lol:

crappy cam recording din, pero alam mo na may "pwede" yung guitar... wala syang "mismo" pero may "pwede" mapapa "yun o!" ka dun.

in addition to hiyaw I'd like to invent my own set of terms as well and add this to the GC glossary of guitar characteristics that cannot be recorded. and it can hardly be found on any of the expensive boutique gears, but more inherent in brands like Ibanez PRS and Stagg.

i may start a new thread.... or not medyo OT pero since we're on coining terms for tones in our heads... eto akin

pwede = A resonant Low characteristic more obvious in the low E5 power chord that can instantly draw skid marks to baconized briefs. It brings instant aggression if played in triplet chugga chugga riffs. It also brings spirits to Power 5ths across the neck even in the 14th fret/4th string high E
mismo = the sweet sustain of bends with a bit of compression and scooped mids that can make panties wet instantly....
yun o = clarity of each note played throughout the fretboard and instantaneous sustain even in fast runs ...that make you squint your eyes in disbelief that such a tone existed
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 02:24:12 PM by challengeofthegobots »

Offline deltaslim

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I'd like to believe that this hiyaw is not just a hallucination born from an excessive expense which led to a particular level of guilt that FM55 can't justify on his own, therefore imposed on everyone else to be required on a great guitar, to justify that the purchase was worth it because of a magical characteristic found nowhere else or only in 5% of the world's guitars. But I just can't help but think otherwise...

I don't think it's guilt. More of an attempt to build an artificial island of exclusivity in order to feed an oversized ego or fill a deep-seated insecurity.


pwede = A resonant Low characteristic more obvious in the low E5 power chord that can instantly draw skid marks to baconized briefs. It brings instant aggression if played in triplet chugga chugga riffs. It also brings spirits to Power 5ths across the neck even in the 14th fret/4th string high E
mismo = the sweet sustain of bends with a bit of compression and scooped mids that can make panties wet instantly....
yun o = clarity of each note played throughout the fretboard and instantaneous sustain even in fast runs ...that make you squint your eyes in disbelief that such a tone existed


LOL. Fight fire with fire! Might as well, di naman nakikinig sa logic, reason, at proper argumentation yung kausap eh.

Dami pa pwede: angas, astig, bastos, malandi, kabit, malibog, matamis, etc.

Lahat yan di pwede marecord... pero pramis, totoo yan... madidinig lang in person... kung ikaw ako... na may golden ears... na pwede mo lang makuha kung mayaman, magaling, experienced, experto, eksklusibo...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 02:56:22 PM by deltaslim »

Offline pitongjerome

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if we could just record our brainwaves and put it in a vid and watch/hear it...
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones