Is it OK to sell DIY clones?

[kawayan_strat]

they look bad, are directly cloned, do not have decent customer service and they under-perform... at least the ones i bought, sold and forgotten.

i mean, if you are gonna sell a clone, make sure you have the words CLONE in call caps and red text... and give link to the website where you ripped-off the design.

depende siguro sa builder yan bro.

[gyrome]

^  +1.

markv and paparoni do have  a very nice customer service. ewan ko lang kung gumagawa na ulit si ron.

[pie-key]

they look bad, are directly cloned, do not have decent customer service and they under-perform... at least the ones i bought, sold and forgotten.

i mean, if you are gonna sell a clone, make sure you have the words CLONE in call caps and red text... and give link to the website where you ripped-off the design.

Honesty is the best policy na lang sir. Nasa kanya na lang yun siguro.

[Musikerochan]

[analog.matt]

let's say you're after vintage pedal X. sa Ebay it costs 300 US dollars.

then you know of local pedal builder who has the same unit from the same vintage era and sounds so good (pedals can be inconsistent) and can build you one using the same internal components ---as in replicated talaga and itotono ng builder para magkasing tunog yung gagawin na pedal sa luma niyang pedal.

The builder spent say a total of 3 months scouring the net, ebay etc etc. making phone calls, etc etc; making the pedal . and He was able to replicate the sound of the vintage pedal? and total cost is 200 dollars wala pang labor costs.

would you buy it?

would the average musician buy it?

kahit sabihin na natin na replica of an expensive modern pedal....would you buy it at 70% of an Original pedal's price?

my personal opinion differs. my opinion a number of the local peeps go to clones para makatipid. and by cutting corners, you get what you pay for.

if there's a local builder that can replicate, i personally would go for it.

[Musikerochan]

why replicate? why not save for a few bucks more and buy the thing?

more importanly: can we not improve on it?

[pie-key]

 

why replicate? why not save for a few bucks more and buy the thing?

more importanly: can we not improve on it?

we clearly improved bro, actually yung mga builds natin ngayon like yours can match up with their designs, competetive na tayo kung tutuusin. kung real thing naman, di hamak na mas mura yung mga gawang pinoy ah. some Needs improvements nga lang.

[siore]

let's say you're after vintage pedal X. sa Ebay it costs 300 US dollars.

then you know of local pedal builder who has the same unit from the same vintage era and sounds so good (pedals can be inconsistent) and can build you one using the same internal components ---as in replicated talaga and itotono ng builder para magkasing tunog yung gagawin na pedal sa luma niyang pedal.

The builder spent say a total of 3 months scouring the net, ebay etc etc. making phone calls, etc etc; making the pedal . and He was able to replicate the sound of the vintage pedal? and total cost is 200 dollars wala pang labor costs.

would you buy it?

would the average musician buy it?

kahit sabihin na natin na replica of an expensive modern pedal....would you buy it at 70% of an Original pedal's price?

my personal opinion differs. my opinion a number of the local peeps go to clones para makatipid. and by cutting corners, you get what you pay for.

if there's a local builder that can replicate, i personally would go for it.

I mentioned a few posts back a few bits about what I think about builders 'cost'.  Does his selling price truthfully reflect it?  Even if he got parts that look the vintage, there are even more ebay sellers out there who disguise current production components to look.. vintage.  In the end, you take his word for what it is and trust his ears.  I'm hoping for the day you can do the same with local builders.  And if that day comes, it's better for us end-users, since shipping costs, product compliance/ regulation costs, other costs inherent to those building in US, will not be a huge factor here.

Right now, there's a lot of IF's and other questions and doubts for local builds.  But made in US, built by hand, featured and talked about in US forums and magazines, will make a usually discerning customer feel good about his purchase regardless of price tag.

If you want to clone your vintage pedal, I think the guys here can do it.  With level-headed technical expertise.  What's more, if you're nearby, you can drop by anytime and hear for yourself.  Give back inputs.  No waiting for shipment to arrive or sending it back and waiting again, while paying incremental costs.

[analog.matt]

^

well, what i was trying to point out that there are builders out there who are sincere with their work and that they do their homework. If a component can't be located here, he'll be willing to find it outside the country. hard work ika nga. and that their level of workmanship or craftmanship is high.

I also admire a builder who will lay down everything and i'm very much aware of those scrupulous people who make big bucks by claiming one is vintage. and good builder should be aware of that. bumble bees nga lang, madami na nagdadaya.

dapat ipapakita niya lahat sa iyo just like what GY did to Alex's LP. and he has to prove kung vintage nga o hindi. basically, yun ang isang binabayaran sa builder imho--siya na mag tetest...siya na nag sasala.

kung may duda, mag sama ng marunong para tulungan ka sa pagdecision.

now why not buy the real thing.

1) kung kaya ng Pinoy, why not? kung ikaaasenso naman ng tao. also at the end of the day, as a Pinoy, you gave a chance to your kababayan. kung hindi mo nagustuhan at least you gave someone a chance kesa naman magbicker tayo about the state of the music industry and yet wala naman tayo nacocontribute. may kanya kanya tayong prinsipyo sa buhay. if you can't afford to give chance to others. then so be it. no dramas.
2) you have to hear it. not all of the same make and model and year sound the same. kaya mahirap talaga pag online. susugal ka talaga.

[shredmaestrobri]

why replicate? why not save for a few bucks more and buy the thing?

more importanly: can we not improve on it?

this. that will make a more healthy competition and would be more fun!

[Musikerochan]

^

well, what i was trying to point out that there are builders out there who are sincere with their work and that they do their homework. If a component can't be located here, he'll be willing to find it outside the country. hard work ika nga. and that their level of workmanship or craftmanship is high.

I also admire a builder who will lay down everything and i'm very much aware of those scrupulous people who make big bucks by claiming one is vintage. and good builder should be aware of that. bumble bees nga lang, madami na nagdadaya.

dapat ipapakita niya lahat sa iyo just like what GY did to Alex's LP. and he has to prove kung vintage nga o hindi. basically, yun ang isang binabayaran sa builder imho--siya na mag tetest...siya na nag sasala.

kung may duda, mag sama ng marunong para tulungan ka sa pagdecision.

now why not buy the real thing.

1) kung kaya ng Pinoy, why not? kung ikaaasenso naman ng tao. also at the end of the day, as a Pinoy, you gave a chance to your kababayan. kung hindi mo nagustuhan at least you gave someone a chance kesa naman magbicker tayo about the state of the music industry and yet wala naman tayo nacocontribute. may kanya kanya tayong prinsipyo sa buhay. if you can't afford to give chance to others. then so be it. no dramas.
2) you have to hear it. not all of the same make and model and year sound the same. kaya mahirap talaga pag online. susugal ka talaga.

the problem though with some consumers is the idea of attaining mojo of some kind; many arent convinced that some part types (capacitors, for example) in a particular part of the circuit do not have a tonal influence, hence they regard the idea of part substitution as "inferior". caps to ground? tell me how caps matter.

also, it'll be very taxing to show consumers - particularly in pedal building - EVERY part of the build process. we are hobbyists/builders, not wannabe fotogs although we do post pics of the finished product and post gut shots as well.

[quaternotetriplet]

why replicate? why not save for a few bucks more and buy the thing?

more importanly: can we not improve on it?

why? because there are pedals that the foreign builders charge too much. (na napakadali lang naman gawin e.g boost pedals)

bossfet FTW.. epic wiring and straight forward.. ( makes me wana cry when i see it's guts)

[Musikerochan]

why? because there are pedals that the foreign builders charge too much. (na napakadali lang naman gawin e.g boost pedals)

bossfet FTW.. epic wiring and straight forward.. ( makes me wana cry when i see it's guts)

true. but then again it's better to support also those builders of pedals we would like so much to copy. take mid-fi for example. built his clarinot and realized it's a fun pedal. what makes them expensive though is the fact that it's made abroad (shipping, plus different "cost" of labor). if budget permits imma buy one again soon. if not, then we have to wait instead. doug deeper, paul C., you know, the guys who build and innovate. mad props to them.

[Wampler Pedals]

I've not read this thread in it's entirety but the title caught my eye, so here is the view from the inside... From a Wampler Pedals point of view.

To design and make pedals; it's takes us months to design the circuit, the logo, re-brand the website, make the units etc. etc. before we get a single $ from sales.

Basically, bringing a new pedal to market costs us a fortune. We design from scratch, we don't take another circuit and replicate it, we improve on what is already there (there are only so many ways you can clip a circuit and they've all been done before, believe me).

Then, we hand build them in the U.S. - This is not the cheapest way, but it's what we are about. Then we sell it to the distributors, who sell it to the dealer who sell it to you.

So... months of R&D by Brian (who designs the circuits in case you are not familiar with our brand), and then I spend (what feels like) forever designing the logo for the unit, choosing the paint, designing the box graphic, constructing the web site, promoting it across several social networks etc.

Considering all that, we then put a hand made (in the US) product to market, using only the very, very best components, the distributor gets a cut, the dealer gets a cut, the taxman gets a cut, the shipping company gets a cut... And then the guys who designed it might get something. All that for a $200 (USD) pedal.

So, when someone gets one of our pedals, rips it to shreds, makes a clone of it (usually using the cheapest parts available) and then sells it at his cost plus $50 for his time after marketing it as "an exact copy of the ##### pedal" across local forums... You can imagine how well that goes down.

We, and other companies like us, exist to make the best pedals possible that will inspire you to be the best musician you can.

We innovate the industry, the cloners imitate. They make themselves financially better off and what return do you, the consumer get..?  None. You get an inferior product that will cr4p out on you sooner rather than later. I don't see the cloners giving you a 5 year manufacturers guarantee like we do.

Also, don't be fooled in thinking they are doing this for you, to get you a cheaper product that you think is the same as the real thing, they are doing it 100% to get the false glory of being a pedal builder and to take your money. It's like buying a $20 rolex imitation watch from some dodgy guy on the beach in a holiday resort. It looks good and most people won't know the difference but you know, deep down inside, you've brought something that is just, basically, just a piece of cr4p.

Basically, you get what you pay for. To bring you a quality, fully guaranteed product to your local store is not cheap. But if the cloners take all the sales, the real guys, the innovators, won't be able to constantly improve and the industry will stand still and your tone will remain as it is and to get great sound, you'll have to buy a $ 4,000 amp. So, your false economy is just that, false.

I would to take this oppotunity to thank you all who have brought our products recently from Jeff, he's a top guy who is supporting real products and he goes the extra mile to bring you the best gear at the cheapest price. I take my hat off to him, it's guys like him that is really helping you get great tone, not the cloners.   

Rant over. 

[Wampler Pedals]

So, having now read most of the thread...

If you take our circuit, improve on it by being bold and designing something cool, market it as your own... Good for you. We are 100% in support of you. After all, that's what all the boutique guys did. Improved the existing product. 

But, if you copy our product directly and market it as your own or even as a direct clone that is the same but cheaper (which is a lie), I hope your next cr4p is a Porcupine that comes out backwards.   

[quaternotetriplet]

So, having now read most of the thread...

If you take our circuit, improve on it by being bold and designing something cool, market it as your own... Good for you. We are 100% in support of you. After all, that's what all the boutique guys did. Improved the existing product. 

But, if you copy our product directly and market it as your own or even as a direct clone that is the same but cheaper (which is a lie), I hope your next cr4p is a Porcupine that comes out backwards.   

agree. 

[Kadaklan]

ok lang basta murahan nyo benta!

      

[fretzburner]

In my opinion as a DIY'er too,directly copying a circuit using cheap components(to be able to sell cheap) is not a good direction.Number one on my list is to use quality components(to match the original pedal copied-which makes the cost high) and 2nd to improve or customize the circuit to our individual taste and purpose .If i will just straight copy the product i will just buy the real thing.Example was my 2in1 pedals,i spent time just to design the layout of the two circuits to fit into 125B enclosures because that was my main goal to save space.That's just the enclosure i'm talking about,the circuit tweaking is another story.By the way my builds are only for personal use.
Back to the thread title if ok to sell diy clones,i think no if it's really a 100% clone.Customized maybe okay.This is just my opinion.

[turiguiliano]

I've not read this thread in it's entirety but the title caught my eye, so here is the view from the inside... From a Wampler Pedals point of view.

To design and make pedals; it's takes us months to design the circuit, the logo, re-brand the website, make the units etc. etc. before we get a single $ from sales.

Basically, bringing a new pedal to market costs us a fortune. We design from scratch, we don't take another circuit and replicate it, we improve on what is already there (there are only so many ways you can clip a circuit and they've all been done before, believe me).

Then, we hand build them in the U.S. - This is not the cheapest way, but it's what we are about. Then we sell it to the distributors, who sell it to the dealer who sell it to you.

So... months of R&D by Brian (who designs the circuits in case you are not familiar with our brand), and then I spend (what feels like) forever designing the logo for the unit, choosing the paint, designing the box graphic, constructing the web site, promoting it across several social networks etc.

Considering all that, we then put a hand made (in the US) product to market, using only the very, very best components, the distributor gets a cut, the dealer gets a cut, the taxman gets a cut, the shipping company gets a cut... And then the guys who designed it might get something. All that for a $200 (USD) pedal.

So, when someone gets one of our pedals, rips it to shreds, makes a clone of it (usually using the cheapest parts available) and then sells it at his cost plus $50 for his time after marketing it as "an exact copy of the ##### pedal" across local forums... You can imagine how well that goes down.

We, and other companies like us, exist to make the best pedals possible that will inspire you to be the best musician you can.

We innovate the industry, the cloners imitate. They make themselves financially better off and what return do you, the consumer get..?  None. You get an inferior product that will cr4p out on you sooner rather than later. I don't see the cloners giving you a 5 year manufacturers guarantee like we do.

Also, don't be fooled in thinking they are doing this for you, to get you a cheaper product that you think is the same as the real thing, they are doing it 100% to get the false glory of being a pedal builder and to take your money. It's like buying a $20 rolex imitation watch from some dodgy guy on the beach in a holiday resort. It looks good and most people won't know the difference but you know, deep down inside, you've brought something that is just, basically, just a piece of cr4p.

Basically, you get what you pay for. To bring you a quality, fully guaranteed product to your local store is not cheap. But if the cloners take all the sales, the real guys, the innovators, won't be able to constantly improve and the industry will stand still and your tone will remain as it is and to get great sound, you'll have to buy a $ 4,000 amp. So, your false economy is just that, false.

I would to take this oppotunity to thank you all who have brought our products recently from Jeff, he's a top guy who is supporting real products and he goes the extra mile to bring you the best gear at the cheapest price. I take my hat off to him, it's guys like him that is really helping you get great tone, not the cloners.   

Rant over.

Win!

[Wampler Pedals]

Win!

If my memory serves me correctly, Turi is another guy who brings you quality products. Please, support him and others like him as much as possible. They have invested a lot of monies personally to bring you the real deal. You should all buy them a beer next chance you get.

fretzburner: Mate, you should start producing more of your stuff, lend some out to people to see what they think, if they have any doubts, ask them what they want and then try to do it. That's how we started. That's how everyone started. You obviously have the ear and the passion for it, which is what matters. You never know, your improvements may be just what everyone else has been waiting for. Do it. Just keep working, keep tweaking and you will soon be making kick ass pedals.

Anyway, rant over. I'll disappear again for another few months. 

Cheers

Jason @ Wampler 

[Rmansh]

^id like to have one of those tweed 57 pedals

welcome back mate!

[maxi_musikero]

I've not read this thread in it's entirety but the title caught my eye, so here is the view from the inside... From a Wampler Pedals point of view.

To design and make pedals; it's takes us months to design the circuit, the logo, re-brand the website, make the units etc. etc. before we get a single $ from sales.

Basically, bringing a new pedal to market costs us a fortune. We design from scratch, we don't take another circuit and replicate it, we improve on what is already there (there are only so many ways you can clip a circuit and they've all been done before, believe me).

Then, we hand build them in the U.S. - This is not the cheapest way, but it's what we are about. Then we sell it to the distributors, who sell it to the dealer who sell it to you.

So... months of R&D by Brian (who designs the circuits in case you are not familiar with our brand), and then I spend (what feels like) forever designing the logo for the unit, choosing the paint, designing the box graphic, constructing the web site, promoting it across several social networks etc.

Considering all that, we then put a hand made (in the US) product to market, using only the very, very best components, the distributor gets a cut, the dealer gets a cut, the taxman gets a cut, the shipping company gets a cut... And then the guys who designed it might get something. All that for a $200 (USD) pedal.

So, when someone gets one of our pedals, rips it to shreds, makes a clone of it (usually using the cheapest parts available) and then sells it at his cost plus $50 for his time after marketing it as "an exact copy of the ##### pedal" across local forums... You can imagine how well that goes down.

We, and other companies like us, exist to make the best pedals possible that will inspire you to be the best musician you can.

We innovate the industry, the cloners imitate. They make themselves financially better off and what return do you, the consumer get..?  None. You get an inferior product that will cr4p out on you sooner rather than later. I don't see the cloners giving you a 5 year manufacturers guarantee like we do.

Also, don't be fooled in thinking they are doing this for you, to get you a cheaper product that you think is the same as the real thing, they are doing it 100% to get the false glory of being a pedal builder and to take your money. It's like buying a $20 rolex imitation watch from some dodgy guy on the beach in a holiday resort. It looks good and most people won't know the difference but you know, deep down inside, you've brought something that is just, basically, just a piece of cr4p.

Basically, you get what you pay for. To bring you a quality, fully guaranteed product to your local store is not cheap. But if the cloners take all the sales, the real guys, the innovators, won't be able to constantly improve and the industry will stand still and your tone will remain as it is and to get great sound, you'll have to buy a $ 4,000 amp. So, your false economy is just that, false.

I would to take this oppotunity to thank you all who have brought our products recently from Jeff, he's a top guy who is supporting real products and he goes the extra mile to bring you the best gear at the cheapest price. I take my hat off to him, it's guys like him that is really helping you get great tone, not the cloners.   

Rant over.

very nice read. 

ok lang basta murahan nyo benta!

      

[Musikerochan]

ok lang basta murahan nyo benta!

      

this is a false assumption lagi ng mga gustong magpabuo ng pedals. "sa yo na lang ako papagawa ng toobskrimer, mas mura yun diba?" my response has been "get a j0yo na lang pare, mas mura yun." actually, having HAND-MADE pedals is way more taxing sa katawan ng builder. time, effort, hours of testing, designing the project, actually building it, and replying to consumer queries no matter how unrelated to the build in question, those take time.

in a sense mas mura nga ang hand-built DITO sa pinas since we do not have to put websites and [gooey brown stuff] and spend on promotion, but then again what qualifies as the "best" part in a particular build/circuit is a matter of taste. tell me how superior those JRC4558 chips are compared to modern dual opamps.

again, consumers arent just paying for the parts, they are paying more for the effort actually.

[Al_Librero]

It's a hallmark of those who do not, or worse, do not want to appreciate the intangibles. Parang sa PC, may mga willing gumastos ng 50k and up for hardware, but would scoff at the thought of buying a Windows 7 license worth around 4-6k.

[stringman]

My take on DIY, it's really time consuming if you are a very busy person. I would understand why local DIY'ers prices are such.

Everything is free on the internet, anyone is free to build their own. But the labor of asking someone to build one for you is not free. That's why the prices of local builds cannot be judged by parts alone.