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Author Topic: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?  (Read 38634 times)

Offline treblinkalovescene

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2012, 11:29:31 AM »
bakit ka bumibili ng fuzzes?? all of them are clones ng fuzzface/bender/muff... supporter ka don't deny it

I always thought the world of fuzz was a lot more adventurous as far as dirt's concerned. I mean, oo, may common origins but show me how Devi Ever, Death By Audio or WMD's stuff are copies. Familiar circuits but these ones tend to go the extra mile. Personally, I'd hit.
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Offline Al_Librero

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2012, 11:49:15 AM »
Now i get it. The most popular  diy pedal is now the most hated by local diyers?

I thought shreadhead was really a pinoy masterpiece.
Hate is too strong a word. We are attempting to discuss truths here. The people who have posted info that matters have so far kept things academic.
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Offline region III

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2012, 11:49:54 AM »
considered clone pa din ba kung pinalitan ko nang RC4650 yung LM833?

Offline cacophony

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2012, 12:05:15 PM »
Not worth it. But that's just me. I guess.. <_<

Offline Musikerochan

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2012, 12:15:11 PM »
considered clone pa din ba kung pinalitan ko nang RC4650 yung LM833?

did it change the topology?


Offline siore

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2012, 12:58:55 PM »
I hope it's clear that my opinions weren't born out of prejudice. Judging without due process (i.e. actually testing the pedals) is wrong. Even if your post is a sarcastic one, those factors that you mentioned give a lot of people enough reason to stick to products of companies that have more in-depth experience in the industry. More often than not, people will want to spend P7-8k on a pedal that sounds great, has great aftersales service and is built like a tank.

If.

More often than not, those factors are bonuses.  Subliminally, they just fall into the hype, hook, line, and, sinker.  And it's absurd.  Even the guys with the capacity to afford it will note it as such.  Absurdity.  With a strong will, you can produce that locally with the same build quality if you really want to cut the cost, but people buy into the popular boutique justifications all the same.  You notice when a builder introduced waitlists, other followed suit?  Same when they introduce another reason why their products are priced higher, suddenly the catch-phrase is used by others.  It may seem logical to a lot of people, but I prefer to take those with a grain of salt.  Like I said, there are technologies that are still exclusive to them, but a lot are old analog tech.  It's not that hard, so unless you're in the 50's, don't kid yourself that their soldering irons produce better products.  It's still the same square waveforms.  Always has been for decades now.

Quote
With so many builders just popping up nowadays, it's kinda hard to know which ones really know their craft. There may be DIY builders who don't exactly know everything that's happening in the circuits of the pedals that they build. "Just follow the schematics, use the right components as stated in the list of materials, and voila, instant product!" isn't a recipe for good aftersales. "Tweaking" a few components from existing circuits isn't as easy as it seems as if requires the builder to have a fair amount of knowledge on electronics and to perform lots of tests on his/her mods, but it sure is hella lot easier if you already have the schematics one click away.

Same would go for the boutique stuff.  Kinda hard to sift to the innovative ones.  A lot would go to the process you just described.  Grab a schematic, make Kool-Aid.  But the price tag, exclusivity, and perceived value makes it easy for those with money to proclaim it as the real deal.

Quote
Again, if local clones can match the quality of the builds of international companies (even durability/reliability; other users can attest to this one) without resorting to straight-up cloning, then they have all the right in the world to launch their own products not just here, but also internationally. I've tried a lot of local DIY builds and only a few really stood out in terms of sound and build quality, with the Shredhead being one of them. Yun nga lang, na-Madbean pala. If our local guys can come up with more original concepts and mods instead of just copying stuff from schematics online, then they'd do the whole Pinoy DIY community proud. There are a lot of ways to innovate and that means there are also a lot of interesting products that can be made.

I'm sure you believe your opinions aren't based on prejudice.  But when you have more questions and doubts for local builders who also breadboard and bench test their builds, and still shell out for the boutique whenever you feel like it, I'd say you still buy based on what's trendy.  You stated you know a fair bit about electronics, why don't you throw the local guys a bone with some ideas, and work with them for more innovative builds?

One may have heard more A/B tests with purchasing power, but that doesn't necessarily give 'em a fair and balanced view (I know you'll disagree).  You can't simply conclude that the ones that didn't stand out as inferior.  It's just part of the bigger signal chain.  No doubt you've had pricier stuff though, and I don't want to undermine your experience, but someone has to voice out some sense from time to time in the GAS crazy gear-whoring public opinion.

Sorry 'if' my previous post seems sarcastic, but it's just a part of a few points I'm making. The gist of the main part on topic, is yes, you can sell anything you want.  Even successful and respected builders you idolize started the same way.  Nothing but a breadboard and a soldering iron.  Sell a few.  If you doubt it, shoot it down, and give it a cold shoulder before it even reaches international shores, how and why the hell would it ever flourish?

Sorry for the lengthy post.  Like you, I've a lot to let off my chest.  Just coming from a different place.  If the discussion is civil enough, I've a good mind to step out once I've got that across.  Good day.
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GobotsAndTheArgonauts

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2012, 02:21:39 PM »
The Tone Scientist  claims to be the DESIGNER of Shredhead but I think the Tone Scientist is nothing more but a mere con artist.

Offline boybangs

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »
The Tone Scientist  claims to be the DESIGNER of Shredhead but I think the Tone Scientist is nothing more but a mere con artist.

Here we go...
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GobotsAndTheArgonauts

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2012, 02:37:01 PM »
Pardon my words but I really thought the Shreadhead was a pinoy masterpiece.

Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2012, 02:40:51 PM »
That P500 bit was just an exaggerated example, guys. Don't nitpick on it. Different pedals require different components, which in turn changes the total cost for the parts.

If.
More often than not, those factors are bonuses.  Subliminally, they just fall into the hype, hook, line, and, sinker.  And it's absurd.  Even the guys with the capacity to afford it will note it as such.  Absurdity.  With a strong will, you can produce that locally with the same build quality if you really want to cut the cost, but people buy into the popular boutique justifications all the same.  You notice when a builder introduced waitlists, other followed suit?  Same when they introduce another reason why their products are priced higher, suddenly the catch-phrase is used by others.  It may seem logical to a lot of people, but I prefer to take those with a grain of salt.  Like I said, there are technologies that are still exclusive to them, but a lot are old analog tech.  It's not that hard, so unless you're in the 50's, don't kid yourself that their soldering irons produce better products.  It's still the same square waveforms.  Always has been for decades now.

But all that marketing hype, hook, etc. is pretty much standardized. The more educated ones know when to test first before pulling the trigger. Hyping a product is done to spark product awareness so that the people will want to try them out (or purchase them, for those who are willing), but it doesn't mean that it's all BS. It is still up to the consumers if they'll buy those products or not. And you can't just reduce the cost of pedals to total material cost plus labor and operating expenses. There is also what we call goodwill. It's the same in all industries, and that includes clothing, food, cars, restaurants and so on. It's an intangible part of every company, and one's goodwill goes up as his credibility and experience in the industry improves as well. It's not easy to build a good, solid track record as it requires multiple business transactions over an extended period of time. Every known pedal builder went through that and most of the time, it's not an easy ride because of the industry's very competitive nature.


Same would go for the boutique stuff.  Kinda hard to sift to the innovative ones.  A lot would go to the process you just described.  Grab a schematic, make Kool-Aid.  But the price tag, exclusivity, and perceived value makes it easy for those with money to proclaim it as the real deal.

I agree. Whenever I hear about new pedal brands or models, I don't buy into all that marketing hype, but I will still try them out because I love everything about music technology (but I'll admit that it does help a bit if the company that launches a new product is a reputable one). I'll then let my ears decide if those products are the real deal or not. I've shot down a lot of uber-expensive guitar stuff over the years simply because I believe that they weren't worth their hefty price tags.

I'm sure you believe your opinions aren't based on prejudice.  But when you have more questions and doubts for local builders who also breadboard and bench test their builds, and still shell out for the boutique whenever you feel like it, I'd say you still buy based on what's trendy.  You stated you know a fair bit about electronics, why don't you throw the local guys a bone with some ideas, and work with them for more innovative builds?

You don't know what I've been doing for the past five years, man. I'm no Mr. Boutique-this-and-boutique-that-and-preach-them-like-there's-no-tomorrow. Again, I like international brands because of their resale value, but I have worked with several local DIY guys here to give suggestions and to help them improve their products. kawayan_strat/Mark personally asked me to evaluate the first version of his ZDC pedal, which I found to have this annoying oscillating sound when the gain knob was dialed in beyond 2:00. I reverse-engineered it and found the culprit to be the multicolor diode/status indicator that Mark used. I told Mark about it, suggested some bits about the tone range and it consequently turned out to be a better product afterwards. I've worked with Justin/Kalikot Audio on several switching system builds and I gave him ideas on what the consumers want. I helped my friends out when they wanted Justin to build custom pedals for them. One was a compressor/OD combo in a single enclosure and another was a compressor/OD/boost combo (both of them are fairly innovative builds, in my opinion). I was one of the first guys Turi called to test the Shredhead when it came out (Turi has the very first Shredhead, I believe). I worked with a mod guy named "jackbauer" on modding a BOSS OD-3. And so on. I hope you understand now that I'm not as biased as you think. Trendy? Please. I hope you'll give me more credit than that. I'm very much a supporter of Philippine-made pedals, but somehow it has turned into a copy-a-pedal-and-slap-a-fancy-name-on-it type of thing. Our guys have a lot of potential; only the direction of the local industry as a whole needs to be set.


One may have heard more A/B tests with purchasing power, but that doesn't necessarily give 'em a fair and balanced view (I know you'll disagree).  You can't simply conclude that the ones that didn't stand out as inferior.  It's just part of the bigger signal chain.  No doubt you've had pricier stuff though, and I don't want to undermine your experience, but someone has to voice out some sense from time to time in the GAS crazy gear-whoring public opinion.

Again, you don't know what I have been doing for the past five years or so. I did my homework, man. I did isolation tests and all that. I even tested different instrument and patch cables till 3-4AM for several nights at one point. There may be some fanboys here who just buy based on popular trends, though, and that's why I always give my honest opinion on products whenever someone in this forum asks for feedback or advice.

Sorry 'if' my previous post seems sarcastic, but it's just a part of a few points I'm making. The gist of the main part on topic, is yes, you can sell anything you want.  Even successful and respected builders you idolize started the same way.  Nothing but a breadboard and a soldering iron.  Sell a few.  If you doubt it, shoot it down, and give it a cold shoulder before it even reaches international shores, how and why the hell would it ever flourish?

Sorry for the lengthy post.  Like you, I've a lot to let off my chest.  Just coming from a different place.  If the discussion is civil enough, I've a good mind to step out once I've got that across.  Good day.

Idolize? I think you should already know where I stand by now. Again, my main point was, and still is, not to put down the local DIY industry, but to encourage them to do more than directly copying existing schematics and selling them as new products. I'm sure they have the capability to improve on existing pedals out there and I'll be the first in line to buy their products when they come up with cool and innovative products. I'll even help them out in marketing their products locally and internationally. All it takes is a bit more passion, a bit of ingenuity, bit of creativity and a lot of balls to have the mindset to compete with the international brands.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 02:48:28 PM by Poundcake »
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Offline ierofan

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2012, 02:43:54 PM »
Pardon my words but I really thought the Shreadhead was a pinoy masterpiece.

I'm curious. Explain more!
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2012, 02:45:24 PM »
Long read is long.
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2012, 02:50:41 PM »
So tell me.. The strymon timeline, eventide space, and modfactor are clones of what pedals exactly?

Yamah UD Stomp. That's how I see it. LOL.
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Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2012, 02:53:07 PM »
Yamah UD Stomp. That's how I see it. LOL.

Hahahahaha! Kangkarot :lol:
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2012, 02:54:22 PM »
For Teh Lulz my good man. For Teh Lulz.

Compare natin. IF I CAN ACTUALLY GET ONE. hihi

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GobotsAndTheArgonauts

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2012, 02:55:53 PM »
I'm curious. Explain more!

I never knew that the Shredhead was an MI Audio clone til I bumped into this thread.

Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2012, 03:03:04 PM »
Alright. Hehe. Good read so far.
 
I have the first ever Shredhead (that's what MarkV told me). My claim still stands unless otherwise. No paint job. Red knobs (replaced na). Compared it to the Crunchbox with other forumites on the first ever Lava Cable test on Shreadhead's first year. They sound different to my ears. I will do that comparison again (yes, I will buy another Crunchbox). I hope MI Audio is consistent coz I have never compared one Crunchbox to another. What I cannot recall is what version it was. Will find out.


Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

THIS is something that I have been pushing since 08. And I have been bugging most if not all DIY builders to show their stuff. Cloned, original designs, or whatever. How the hell are your possible clients (and friends) gonna find out what they really sound like? LET THEM TEST IT FIRST HAND.

BTT: Sure, it's OK to sell DIY clones. Just don't tell people you invented it. Rather, tell them this (example): "Hey man, honestly, so this is a RAT clone, did this and that. Got the design from so and so. I did an extensive research, and I made this and that (yes, I invented it). So check it out if you like it and tell me what honestly think."

For those who are claiming you invented something and it comes out as a clone, hehe, you totally suck hairy black balls.
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2012, 03:06:55 PM »
I never knew that the Shredhead was an MI Audio clone til I bumped into this thread.

What's with the name Gobots? There's challengeofthegobots, there's you. Probably someone else here. Who are you again?


In addition to what I said.
I was making pedal boards years ago. And I never EVER claimed they were my original designed. I always told them "puma board inspired" to say the least.  Even if a lot of people copied what I was doing. Didn't really mind.
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2012, 03:11:20 PM »
bakit ka bumibili ng fuzzes?? all of them are clones ng fuzzface/bender/muff... supporter ka don't deny it

So am I. And you as well.


Even the JMI company from EU. Vox clones. Those guys rock. No idea what their agreement is with Vox. But they're still there.


Let's open up another can of worms. A bigger one.
AMPS.

Discuss. HIHI
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2012, 03:14:52 PM »
Not worth it. But that's just me. I guess.. <_<

Why hello there good sir.
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GobotsAndTheArgonauts

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2012, 03:16:52 PM »
For those who are claiming you invented something and it comes out as a clone, hehe, you totally suck hairy black balls.

Yeah! Suck balls bigtime! And whoever is hit by this truth should not be angry.

Offline masarapangtaho

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2012, 03:25:41 PM »
selling clones is like having your luthier make you a Les Paul copy. (with his logo in the headstock)
atleast have the decency to give credit where credit is due. even if you tweaked some parts, modified some specs, to fit your needs, it's still a Les Paul copy.  :-P

Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2012, 03:26:26 PM »
selling clones is like having your luthier make you a Les Paul copy. (with his logo in the headstock)
atleast have the decency to give credit where credit is due. even if you tweaked some parts, modified some specs, to fit your needs, it's still a Les Paul copy.  :-P

This.
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Offline Rmansh

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2012, 04:13:51 PM »
i think MarkV needs to explain something here, the truth about his pedals. para matapos na ang usapan regarding shredhead.



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Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2012, 04:15:28 PM »
i think MarkV needs to explain something here, the truth about his pedals. para matapos na ang usapan regarding shredhead.

Di na yan, alam na naman ng mga nakakabasa dito ang katotohanan. We're talking about local DIY pedals in general, anyway.
"The LORD will save me, and we will play my music on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, at the house of the LORD." Isaiah 38:20