Pros and Cons Re: Recording Softwares

[abusound]

Again, I am not to bash and lash the other DAW's. It's really your choice which gear to use.

The reason I sticking my guns with Pro Tools is because I've proven it's worth since I came from an analog background. I've been using it since version 2.  And though there's a lot of issues back then, only Digidesign persevere and tried to make it real good when it comes to Digital Audio recording, editing and mixing. That's why the other DAW's tries to make their products compatible with the Pro Tools Hardware. LOGIC, for example, highly recommends the use of the Accel cards and the 192 interface as their i/o and power source.

Only Pro Tools made the cut when it comes to latency as well. TDM technology allowed it to playback multiple streams of audio in sync, in real time with real time inserts, without being a burden to the computer. In King Kong, 25 units of Pro Tools HD3 system were used to give the movie it's music, dialog and sound effects. Just imagine the track count of that movie. Total audio storage used in King Kong was about 9.7 terra bytes. And they were able to marry everything in perfect sync thanks to the TDM technology of Pro Tools.

Maybe I am just a fanatic, but again, I'm drawing all these from experience.

[abyssinianson]

I wouldn't say its fanatical - you just happen to like pro tools, and as a trainer, you are entitled to express your opinion. I am not a trainer, however, I have used Pro Tools for a while but come from a different background. As an HD user, I see the benefits of Pro Tools and it was one of the reasons I got it in the first place, the most important being being able to accomodate my session files from different studios to my home setup. However, Pro Tools is not the one all end all as exemplified by other daw users, namely in Europe, who do not use Pro Tools as a standard but still recognize it as a major working format. I have had projects ship from Germany in the native Nuendo format and, to this day, a majority of my European collaborations remain largely Steinberg centered. Is it lesser of a choice? Nope. IN fact, its just as good. The way I see it, the freedom that you get to mix and match, regardless of the propritary hardware that PT imposes on its customers, can be seen as a blessing or a bane. There are more than enough thirdparty companies that offer great conversion quality for audio that equals PT in terms of quality, RME and Apogee being a couple.

Nevertheless, the use of PT in large scale productions does not mean it is the best - Hans Zimmer, a devoted Steinberg user continues to score music to this day on Steinberg products and his non-PT approach certainly does not make him any less of a stellar artist. The point? As long as you know how to manage your gear, and direct workflow latency becomes less of a problem. It is common sense to tread lightly when technological limitations do not offer you as much bandwidth as you want, and this is what sets good DAW users apart from fledgling ones - they KNOW how to exploit the strengths and benefits of their gear whether it is PT or not.

From experience, PT is great - hell, it ought to be for the amount of investment you put into it. Do I have complaints with Digidesign? Nah - as long as I keep working on projects and things work well, I am a happy customer. But as a DAW user on the PT and non-PT end, it really doesn't matter in the end because it all matters on how YOU - the user - end up recording your music.

[KitC]

abusound,

It's good that you're making your experiences and thoughts known about the PT platform. In all truth, PT is the first non-linear audio recording platform to be adopted by the industry and it is also the most stable since it is an integrated hardware and software platform. As such, it rightly deserves the praises people heap upon it.

It's true when you say PT assures you of track count and latency... but it comes at a cost that most people cannot afford, hence, the rise of several other platforms. Does this mean that the others are less capable? Of course not. There are several compromises that do exist and one of them is stability when hardware is not properly configured or optimized. The issue of latency also is device dependent, but even low-latency non-PT audio hardware (like RME and Lynx) command high prices so even that is not limited to PT. These other systems are still more affordable considering that a base PT7 HD1 Core system already costs almost $8,000 and that price doesn't even include I/O. The sad reality for most of us is that the bottom line is always cost and affordability.

I've worked in PT studios and I've seen and heard the PT7 in action over at Shinji's and I can say that if you can afford it, excellent! It is a major investment and one should have a fully booked schedule so that the system pays for itself in no time.

[abusound]

It's nice to read that all your sentiments regarding Pro Tools is about its pricing.

The system doesn't come, I agree. No doubt it's expensive. And it's proprietary. Only Pro Tools could use its own hardware. Not True.

As my example before, LOGIC was made in a way that it could use Digidesign's hardware. It could use the Accel cards for Power, it could also use the 192 or 96i/o as audio interface.

Now again, LOGIC uses other third party hardware. When we built Bigknob Studios in Jakarta, it was supposed to be based in LOGIC, since the owner, who is my friend, is really a LOGIC user. We just couldn't believe that we ended up paying more for our system since most of the hardware that we needed for LOGIC came from vendors outside Indonesia. Add to it, the amount of time and money devoted to research and study just to come up with a configuration that would fit and work with our needs. Another incident was with my friend Henrik Algren, sound engineer and producer for Coco Lee, (he's based in Hong Kong). His investment for his LOGIC rig was twice as much as he would pay for an HD3 system.

Friends, the reaon why Pro Tools is "expensive" and "proprietary" is because it's already a Package. Software comes free with the hardware, plug-ins are included, no more experimentation with A-D/D-A, and it's basically plug-and-play plus include the fact that they are built like a tank. Sound Design Productions in Makati admitted that their G4's were the first to breakdown than their old MIX system. True, in could be an expensive investment at first, but it is a good investment none the less.

BTW, you could use the LE hardware for other PC software, like SONAR, Ableton, Reason, etc. thanks to the wave and asio drivers supplied with these systems.

[abyssinianson]

you misunderstand Kit's point - price is EXACTLY the problem that most people have with Pro Tools, regardless of whether or not it is able to be utlized by third party sequencer companies such as Logic. The concept of price isn't a fancy point,or a lofty fantasy it is a serious concern that people are very careful to consider jumping into. Like Kit said, the entry level HD system costs about 8K and HD 3 goes upwards of 10K. Those are no small amounts of money to sneer at. Not by a long shot, even if you think it is a nice thought to ponder, no matter how you turn it over again and again, investments that big are worth serious consideration. Charlie Clouser, NIN's former programmer uses Digidesign stuff but runs on a Logic platform to center his studio around; such people don't worry about price because they get enough off royalties to cover the xpenses. Unfortunately, normal joes such as I have to wrangle with spreading the butter appropriately, so to speak, so we have enough to maintain our current lot of gear.

Sure PT is a proprietary company but still, the fact remains that the package, and opportunity of owning Pro Tools comes at a hefty price - too hefty for most people who do music as a hobby are willing to put forth. So, we use other, equally productive means which have some features at an expense of the pricetag. Yes, it would be nice if everyone had money coming in from music projects at a constant rate to put into their hobby, however, this is not the case for most people. I am lucky enough to have had enough side projects coming in at my liesure time to invest in HD but I would never think of it had I not been in the position to do so. Why? Simple: price. Cost comes into question because, even if HD is good - which it is - will I be able to throw 10K at it and still be able to afford the month's groceries?

To HD or not to HD? I think the question should be do you need it enough to invest in it, and second, are you in a position that will enable you to make good use out of the investment?

[VinceP]

hi abusound. yeah PT 7 is great! Nice to see people extoll the values of PT here. I'll probably call you re: to HD or not to HD.

Gerry

Hey Gerry

I've been losing sleep over the same question myself.

[Agent_So]

kung maraming namamahalan.. pwede naman i-download sa mga torrents diba? hehehhe.. joke lang mga sir.. pero i admit.. downloaded ko lang mga recording softwares.. im not a supporter of piracy.. pero for starters like me.. hindi ko pa kaya bumili ng orig.. pero once na napili ko na software na babagay para sakin.. and kumikita na..ill buy the original once...        

[abyssinianson]

kung maraming namamahalan.. pwede naman i-download sa mga torrents diba? hehehhe.. joke lang mga sir.. pero i admit.. downloaded ko lang mga recording softwares.. im not a supporter of piracy.. pero for starters like me.. hindi ko pa kaya bumili ng orig.. pero once na napili ko na software na babagay para sakin.. and kumikita na..ill buy the original once...        

if you want to sample software that is why companies have demo versions of the software items. price isn't even a reason when manufacturers allow you to sample the items for no money at all. supporting the plague of piracy - and how Asia plays a huge role in proliferating the underground market - in any medium whether it is simple downloading, or buying copies off some guy on the street is, well, not really a big help in moving things forward. when I began, I took full advantage of demo software versions, and freeware stuff is abundant as well. way to go, man, way to go...

[KitC]

Aside from downloadable demos, most soundcards offer 'lite' versions of popular software. There's Sonar LE and Cubase LE, some even bundle lite versions of Ableton Live.

Just one thing, those of you with Cubase LE should never EVER download the update. This is one update that cripples the original version's capabilities. Shame on you, Steiny!  

[abyssinianson]

Steinberg seems to be under more and more heat these days, especially with the Cubase 4 hooplah. Anyway, I have had a lot of good experiences with lite versions of softwares, specifically Steinberg (Cubasis), and Ableton. I don't think I would have bought the full versions if I didn't need it because, frankly, the lite versions were very much capable of doing what I needed to as far as recording my guitars when I first started. However, Ableton was a bit different because, while the lite version is great,  the potential uses for the full blown version is amazing. It remains as my main music sketchpad on my laptop, and it shows it flexibility most when I am able to work on music in places where I have time to burn like the lounge of the airport while waiting for flights, or in the actual airplane while killing time during a 2 hour interstate flight.

[kamada]

what do you guys think of Ableton Live? I got my Cubase LE from the Tascam 1082 already, but I went to ableton's website and got googly eyed with the beautiful interface of Live 6! does beauty come with brains?

@Agent_So: sir, wag tayo mag pirate, bad vibes yun. true mahal talaga ang orig and ang hirap pa hanapin, pero that's no excuse (though the rarity of finding original audio software is a fault of the distributor). I'm a law student specializing in Intellectual Property. Ever wonder why software is so costly? yep, its because of the amount of R&D that was poured into it, and yep its also because of all the marketing costs, but one little known fact is that it costs a lot more nowadays because of piracy. The software developer takes into account the pirate rate of a piece of software in computing its ROI, so the    burden of the unpaid costs of the use of a certain piece of software by a pirate is placed upon the backs of the legit users. Wawa kami...

[abyssinianson]

what do you guys think of Ableton Live? I got my Cubase LE from the Tascam 1082 already, but I went to ableton's website and got googly eyed with the beautiful interface of Live 6! does beauty come with brains?

Kamada, as a long time Ableton user, the new version DOES have beauty and brains. The interface is very useful, the arrangement and integration features are great, and the support, has always been top notch. Overall, Live, as a DJIng tool, song sketchpad, or full blown recording method, is a very good investment.

Live integrates well with Live and I work with it for my remixes in PT as well. For getting the arrangement down, Live is a valuable took for working on music anywhere - airports, airport lounges, cafes, even the library!

[Xilent]

I used Cakewalk but I haven't maximized it yet.  I'm still using Goldwave which is your basic stereo (L-R or MONO) wave table interface.

[music_doctor]

wehehehe... mga tolzzz... pls don't forget that the most important thing, still.... is the final mix, or the end product!  No one will ever know what gear was used when the final cd/dvd gets to the disc player... as in... no genres really... just music... beautiful music. And beautiful music is subjective to the listener. Well, as with the "ease of use" of those gizmos... what works for one person might not work as good as the other person, not that the other person is less than intellectual than the first, but he simply has a different approach to doing things. And there is no guarantee to producing a hit song with the most expensive or most "wonderful" apparatus. Peace!

[skyturn]

Vegas Pro then and now Sony Vegas.
If you're into straight forward recording.
Pinaka simple, very intuitive software.

Pinaka magaan pag dating sa system requirements
and PC recources when running.

I like it! Like it a lot.

[music_doctor]

Vegas??? yes! Lalu na sa video. Kahit hindi ka marunong, upuan mo lang ng dalawang oras, expert ka na

[abyssinianson]

wehehehe... mga tolzzz... pls don't forget that the most important thing, still.... is the final mix, or the end product!  No one will ever know what gear was used when the final cd/dvd gets to the disc player... as in... no genres really... just music... beautiful music. And beautiful music is subjective to the listener. Well, as with the "ease of use" of those gizmos... what works for one person might not work as good as the other person, not that the other person is less than intellectual than the first, but he simply has a different approach to doing things. And there is no guarantee to producing a hit song with the most expensive or most "wonderful" apparatus. Peace!

I beg to differ, in fact, I beg to differ, greatly. Why? Because while it may not matter from a music perspective, quality matters from a production and artistic point of view because there is a huge difference between what was captured well using good equipment, and what was captured with your lowest of the low POS. In addition to music, I also paint - I've been painting longer than I care to remember but I will tell you this: good paints and pigment will make your work look better than some off the shelf product that has too much binder in it but not enough pigment to paint a picture. Does it matter if the picture ends up being beautiful anyway? Well, it depends who you ask, the artist or a person who doesn't paint at all. While someone else might see the picture as good enough, I will most certainly not be content..in fact, I'd be flat out repulsed by the idea that I couldn't get what was in my head onto the canvas simply because my medium, whether they are the brushes, the canvass, or the paints themselves, were not up to spec to help my accomplish my goal; I want a direct representation of my work as an artist, and using subpar stuff would be an injustice if I have access to better materials.

Now, you can record with non-pro gear, no one ever said you couldn't. But the question becomes for each of us in here: are you fine with the product that you get? Are you content with how your process' limitations have shaped your final product?

[music_doctor]

It's your opinion, and nobody contests that. But I think you didn't get my point. What I stress here, is that... the FINAL MIX, or the END PRODUCT, is what is heard by the PEOPLE, and we are on the constant quest to GIVE these people our best, with what we have on hand, of course. Hindi naman porke another person's gear is "inferior" to those you use eh, LESSER na ang quality na magagawa nya. It has been, and is, and will always be... that the FINAL MIX says it all. Any professional would know that.

[Sound Weavers]

Vince, for the next year I'll probably stick it out with my PT LE rig. I decided to invest on ANALOG gear rather than plunk more dough into "software" and "software dependent hardware" - tracking is really very important and I have more than enough plugs & RAM for demanding mix situations. PT LE is very very stable.

hope this helps.

- Gerry

hi abusound. yeah PT 7 is great! Nice to see people extoll the values of PT here. I'll probably call you re: to HD or not to HD.

Gerry

Hey Gerry

I've been losing sleep over the same question myself.

[Sound Weavers]

wehehehe... mga tolzzz... pls don't forget that the most important thing, still.... is the final mix, or the end product!  

No one will ever know what gear was used when the final cd/dvd gets to the disc player... as in... no genres really... just music...

And there is no guarantee to producing a hit song with the most expensive or most "wonderful" apparatus. Peace!

my opinion is every stage of the recording process is important

from the material = songwriting, arrangement, talent/skill

to recording, mixing and mastering

the above are all steps that can either enhance/weaken the impact of the recorded sound - the music that is put on CDs for sale to the masses.

some music projects get really lucky to have all of the elements taken cared of by EXPERTS - it's a LOT OF HARD WORK.

PACKAGING is not related to the sound or the music but can also help the perception of the final CD product.

[Sound Weavers]

aside from technical, OPTION OVERLOAD talaga. Choose one and stick with it. May paraan naman bawat software - dapat lang kabisado mo at alam mo from the inside and out. you can make it work whatever software you choose pero the top tier packages are Pro Tools, Sonar, Cubase, Nuendo, Vegas, AudioDesk, Digital Performer, Sadie. . .

Deleted by mod.

[Agent_So]

thanks sir! now back to normal programming...  

[bindoy]

nakagamit na din ako ng adobe audition (1.5) dati madalas...lalo na ung mga spoofs mala bubble gang na skits(hehe)...ung accompaniment ng scenes...kulet nitong software nato...sarap gamitin...

[Direk]

Sorry mga Kapatid..Analog Rules parin pagdating sa akin, probably a pair of AKG microphones into Ampex 300 tube recorder or a pair of Neumanns into tube Studer(dream on)—and that's it. No edits, no consoles, only complete, honest performances of each movement. That's my master plan, yeah....I'm nuts...I just want to make good recordings.


Direk

[Agent_So]

Sorry mga Kapatid..Analog Rules parin pagdating sa akin, probably a pair of AKG microphones into Ampex 300 tube recorder or a pair of Neumanns into tube Studer(dream on)—and that's it. No edits, no consoles, only complete, honest performances of each movement. That's my master plan, yeah....I'm nuts...I just want to make good recordings.


Direk

hahaha! pero sir diba mas praktical ang software.. kung puro hardaware gagamitin mas mapapamahal ka pa.. unlike software, halos lahat ng kelangan mo nandun na. but its your preference...ok narin. if you have the dough naman diba. hehehehe..