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Author Topic: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?  (Read 18117 times)

Offline grasyaps

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifeds?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 11:31:40 PM »
I'm new to buying guitars, if it was me I wouldn't have known if it's a fake or not. Can someone please give me some "tips" when looking for a fake or original guitar?

people here are considerably generous. but they know better than to spoon feed.

my best tip is to read, read and read.

first hand experience between the fakes and the real thing will happen along the way.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:05:05 PM by grasyaps »
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Offline j3yps

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifed?
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 11:18:26 AM »
This shouldn't be allowed here!

Online CeL1916

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2012, 07:17:54 PM »
yup.. the "class A" thing was misleading for newbies...  pwede yung "miltone" or "global" sta. mesa copies kase alam mo na copy, kesa naman "ibanez PGM300 class A" iba ang dating eh..

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Offline ianhisoka47

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2012, 12:55:35 AM »
Prohibit the use of Class A, Class AAA, Class B, whatever class. It's misleading.


Offline siore

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2012, 01:18:17 AM »
But who would be the authority to discern a fake item from legit?  On some close calls, there can be a lot people who will be quick to claim "fake!", when in fact someone in the know will have details that will prove otherwise (a one-off, or actually a repaired or modified headstock, modified part, or a refinish, etc, etc.).  I guess I'm all for prohibiting counterfeits here at philmusic, but it's not 100% enforceable. :x
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Offline KitC

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2012, 09:36:54 AM »
But who would be the authority to discern a fake item from legit?  On some close calls, there can be a lot people who will be quick to claim "fake!", when in fact someone in the know will have details that will prove otherwise (a one-off, or actually a repaired or modified headstock, modified part, or a refinish, etc, etc.).  I guess I'm all for prohibiting counterfeits here at philmusic, but it's not 100% enforceable. :x

This is one reason why I'm on the fence with this. Who, exactly, will be the designated authority on this? Some items we can readily discern but others? One thing I would like is immediate notification to the mods about anomalous transactions so we can take quick action.
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »
This is one reason why I'm on the fence with this. Who, exactly, will be the designated authority on this? Some items we can readily discern but others? One thing I would like is immediate notification to the mods about anomalous transactions so we can take quick action.

Perhaps we could create a report thread per classifieds board to verify an item's authenticity. we have lots of resident experts here in PM AFAIK that could help out in discerning what's legitimate or not. each and every forumite knows the go-to-guy when it comes to their respective instruments, we could then utilize their knowledge and services in identifying certain items for authenticity.

Offline ierofan

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 02:06:02 AM »
I'm new to buying guitars, if it was me I wouldn't have known if it's a fake or not. Can someone please give me some "tips" when looking for a fake or original guitar?

You have so much to learn. Search "counterfeit" on guitar central. If you don't know anything yet, better read up first and not waste your money.
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Offline siore

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 02:08:22 PM »
Perhaps we could create a report thread per classifieds board to verify an item's authenticity. we have lots of resident experts here in PM AFAIK that could help out in discerning what's legitimate or not. each and every forumite knows the go-to-guy when it comes to their respective instruments, we could then utilize their knowledge and services in identifying certain items for authenticity.

Experts are either one guy or a panel.  I doubt an expert would be willing to dedicate much of his time and effort verifying complaints on a regular basis.  If he gets challenged on his information, then we have the beginnings of a panel.  A lot of arguing, debate, personal attacks even, and the talking points of a questionable item gets laid out on the table.  A lot of foreign message boards don't favor discussion of these, as they also provide information for counterfeiters, believe it or not, to improve their craft (crap) and deception.

The other boards do have their go-to guys, but these are shop owners and collectors who've seen a lot of stuff (including oddballs and one-offs) come in through their doors.  Sorry if I might sound like firemodel55 here, but we might not have the exposure or proper incentive to pursue this endeavor.  Not on all brands at least.

Caveat emptor pa rin.  If it doesn't look right, buy at your own risk.
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Offline grasyaps

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2012, 11:11:47 AM »
locking could only do so much. you may lock it, but the seller it still contactable.

i bid to totally erase it.
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2012, 09:44:02 PM »
locking could only do so much. you may lock it, but the seller it still contactable.

i bid to totally erase it.

locking these threads is just a temporary fix to the situation. we are still deliberating if we should just lock these threads or delete ALL such threads in question. as soon as we get everybody's concurrence, only by then could we do so much in line with this matter. as for now, let's stick to caveat emptor.

Offline grasyaps

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2012, 04:15:21 AM »
locking these threads is just a temporary fix to the situation. we are still deliberating if we should just lock these threads or delete ALL such threads in question. as soon as we get everybody's concurrence, only by then could we do so much in line with this matter. as for now, let's stick to caveat emptor.

hindi pa ba RULE yung bawal magbenta ng counterfeit? eh mismong seller na nagsabi na CLASS A e.

ano sir ang in question pa doon?
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2012, 05:48:10 AM »
there's no ruling against counterfeit items specifically in GC yet. the best thing that I could do so far is to lock the thread and issue a warning to the seller until the final ruling has been decided and agreed upon by the mod team. as per toybitz:

if its prohibited...it shouldn't be posted.

if guidelines are updated and then there's 3 months period for member to adjust...and there'll be fakes in the ad..

i say lock and give a warning to the seller

Offline Gunslinger

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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2012, 05:34:28 AM »
This?

http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=265517.0;topicseen

locked. I'll be creating report threads across all classified boards as well so that the designated board mods could take immediate action with regard to these matters. thanks!

Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Class A/Imitation Item Report Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2012, 09:53:11 PM »
sir question? paano ba malaman if class a or imitation ang item? or if class a or imitation ang item na nakita namin eh ireport agad namin?thanks

Some sellers would indicate it in their thread titles. others would disclose that the items they are selling are either "copies", "replicas", "Class A" etc. If you see threads like these, post it here. thanks!

Offline kctan666

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Re: Re: Class A/Imitation Item Report Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2012, 01:14:29 PM »
this is a wonderful initiative - questions

1) if it is stated as "class a" / " imitation" / "copy" - then the ad will not be allowed anymore?
2) if a guitar decaled as "gibson" - but say it is in actuality a  "burny", and this fact is stated in the ad - allowed to post or not?
3.) how about "copies" like greco / burny / tokai, etc, but decaled and labeled accordingly - they are copies of strats / teles / LP's etc - but they should be ok right?

thanks

Offline rtf_axeman

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Re: Class A/Imitation Item Report Thread
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2012, 06:01:09 AM »
Effective immediately, all classified items considered as either imitation, class A, knock offs and the like are not allowed across ALL classified boards.  Please post all reports here so that the duly designated mods could take immediate action re this matter. We’re expecting everybody’s cooperation as it is crucial in maintaining order here in PM. Thanks!

this includes "customs" made by local luthiers?

Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2012, 09:30:18 AM »
this includes "customs" made by local luthiers?

nope. it's applicable only when there is a misrepresentation of the item being sold (e.g "burny" redecaled as "gibson", counterfeits, knockoffs, so called "Class A"  items etc.)

Offline kctan666

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2012, 11:38:02 AM »
hi riff, to summarize FAKE DECAL / DECALIZED not allowed - even if it is declared - I am fine with this - as a buyer of guitars, it eliminates the risk of getting a fake so to speak


Offline rtf_axeman

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2012, 11:40:35 AM »
agreed.

Offline boxxed

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2012, 01:37:39 PM »
hi riff, to summarize FAKE DECAL / DECALIZED not allowed - even if it is declared - I am fine with this - as a buyer of guitars, it eliminates the risk of getting a fake so to speak

What about those made by luthiers which had a "brand" decal affixed to them for aesthetic purposes? I think the forumers naman
automatically call the attention of the seller pag di completely truthful or misleading yung post esp. regarding the authenticity of the said guitar. Matagal nang ganun ang sistema. Why fix what ain't broken?

And besides, what was posted on the ad works as a contract for both parties. If the buyer agrees, whether it is decaled or class A, then
that is the liability of the buyer - he entered the contract upon agreeing. Now with regards to the seller who conceals information
to mislead people, I think we should just impost stricter rules on those kind of people. A ban maybe after a warning?
What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

Offline Chow23

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2012, 08:17:41 PM »
in my most honest opinion, ok lang na magbenta ng "CLASS A" here, as long as ipaalam na agad sa mga potential buyer that what they are selling are "CLASS A", discretion na ng consumer kung bibilin niya yung product or just snob on it,,, haayan natin ang buyer at ang seller ang magkasundo sa anumang pwedeng mangyari sa transaction nila,,,,

,,, the main issue here is "acceptance" .....

sa panahon ngayon, aminin man natin o sa hindi, halos lahat ng product na ginagamit natin is made in china! (in other words, CLASS A, B,C, OEM, COPY, semi-orig, semi-fake or simply fake!!! what ever you want to to call it!) - no offense w/ china pips - sige sa inyo na spratlys/Scarborough Shoal, hehehehe!

sabi nga ng isang famous journalist, "kung gusto mong bumili ng made in usa product, bumili ka sa usa, pero kung gusto mong bumili ng made in china products, kahit saan ka lumingon meron, kahit sa U.S.!,,,, minsan di ko alam kung tayo ay nagagalit dahil meron mga fakes na nagbebenta, or dahil lang sa meron nakabili ng gadget or gitara na halos kaparehas ng sa iyo, pero sa ubod ng baba na halaga!, kulang na lang di ka kumain para lang mabili mo yung dream guitar mo, tapos meron biglang halos kaparehas ng sayo, but the price is way so low!,,, nanghihinayang, naasar,,, mixed emotions,,,? ikaw lang ang makapag-decide kung ano ang feeling mo,,,,
pero isa lang ang sigurado, hangat may mga taong gusto maka-expirience kung ano man ang meron kang "expenisve stuffs" but at the same time gustong makatipid,,, CLASS A's/ FAKES will always be there!

trivia: halos 95% ng ipod products na meron tayo (kung meron man) is guess what? made/(assembled?) in china! in other words, "semi-fake?!!!" haaayyyy,,, either embrace the fact,,,, or just LOVE it!

another trivia: bago maging squire ang squire, at epiphone ang epiphone, minsan din silang tinawag na fender tele. copy at gibson LP copy guitars,,,, ginawa, to give way for less expensive guitars,,, oh, then there was "simulation pedals" copying the sounds/tone of another jaw-dropping pricey pedal,,,, and lots more,,,, THE END! GOD BLESS everyone!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 08:57:31 PM by Chow23 »
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2012, 11:16:33 PM »
What about those made by luthiers which had a "brand" decal affixed to them for aesthetic purposes? I think the forumers naman
automatically call the attention of the seller pag di completely truthful or misleading yung post esp. regarding the authenticity of the said guitar. Matagal nang ganun ang sistema. Why fix what ain't broken?

We’re simply reinforcing the system. The idea itself officiated from this practice.

And besides, what was posted on the ad works as a contract for both parties. If the buyer agrees, whether it is decaled or class A, then
that is the liability of the buyer - he entered the contract upon agreeing. Now with regards to the seller who conceals information
to mislead people, I think we should just impost stricter rules on those kind of people. A ban maybe after a warning?

Ideally, that should work. However, we heard the voice of the forumites and realized that we needed to up the ante. It is our responsibility to safeguard those under our wing, thus this ruling was implemented.

in my most honest opinion, ok lang na magbenta ng "CLASS A" here, as long as ipaalam na agad sa mga potential buyer that what they are selling are "CLASS A", discretion na ng consumer kung bibilin niya yung product or just snob on it,,, haayan natin ang buyer at ang seller ang magkasundo sa anumang pwedeng mangyari sa transaction nila,,,,

,,, the main issue here is "acceptance" .....

sa panahon ngayon, aminin man natin o sa hindi, halos lahat ng product na ginagamit natin is made in china! (in other words, CLASS A, B,C, OEM, COPY, semi-orig, semi-fake or simply fake!!! what ever you want to to call it!) - no offense w/ china pips - sige sa inyo na spratlys/Scarborough Shoal, hehehehe!

sabi nga ng isang famous journalist, "kung gusto mong bumili ng made in usa product, bumili ka sa usa, pero kung gusto mong bumili ng made in china products, kahit saan ka lumingon meron, kahit sa U.S.!,,,, minsan di ko alam kung tayo ay nagagalit dahil meron mga fakes na nagbebenta, or dahil lang sa meron nakabili ng gadget or gitara na halos kaparehas ng sa iyo, pero sa ubod ng baba na halaga!, kulang na lang di ka kumain para lang mabili mo yung dream guitar mo, tapos meron biglang halos kaparehas ng sayo, but the price is way so low!,,, nanghihinayang, naasar,,, mixed emotions,,,? ikaw lang ang makapag-decide kung ano ang feeling mo,,,,
pero isa lang ang sigurado, hangat may mga taong gusto maka-expirience kung ano man ang meron kang "expenisve stuffs" but at the same time gustong makatipid,,, CLASS A's/ FAKES will always be there!

trivia: halos 95% ng ipod products na meron tayo (kung meron man) is guess what? made/(assembled?) in china! in other words, "semi-fake?!!!" haaayyyy,,, either embrace the fact,,,, or just LOVE it!

another trivia: bago maging squire ang squire, at epiphone ang epiphone, minsan din silang tinawag na fender tele. copy at gibson LP copy guitars,,,, ginawa, to give way for less expensive guitars,,, oh, then there was "simulation pedals" copying the sounds/tone of another jaw-dropping pricey pedal,,,, and lots more,,,, THE END! GOD BLESS everyone!

Realistically speaking, we don't have the power to stop people from buying, selling and endorsing products such as Class A's, redecaled wares, counterfeits and the like. BUT, what we could do here as the designated authorities in PM is to implement rules and regulations to safeguard our forumites and PM's reputation as well. PM being an interdependent society; our forumite's actions reflects PM's reputation. if we are to safeguard it, we need to take certain measures. There are other sites that could cater to these anyways. We'd rather have a small market populace that caters to authentic commodities than have a booming bootleg bazaar IMHO. :cool: