i STILL swear by my egyptian-papyrus-in-antique-baby-rhino-tear-duct-oil caps

[Musikerochan]

Not my experience.  Why do you think Suhr has a blower switch and Why do you think EVH's early guitars did not have a tone pot?  Just a personal question -- Do you hear anything the difference if any?  If not, what is your current gear set up?

1. because the pots (tone and volume) affects the load.
2. prolly because EVH did not need them.
3. depends on the value of the tone pot. at 500K-1M, i would be straining my ears trying to hear the big difference.

kaya lang - in the context of cap types values and its effect  - the above questions are misleading. what you highlighted is the loading effect.

Since my caps are much better now than before, I do NOT anymore experience so called 'muddy' tone.  In fact, instead of timbre being modified by 'muddy' cheapo caps; my caps now modify presence and pick attack which is my proof on why cap type matters more than value.

hindi naman talaga magkakaroon ng muddy tone KUNG nasa 10 (maximum resistance) ang tone pot mo. pero kung nasa 1 (minimum/almost zero resistance), aba, baka naman 1 picofarad lang ang cap mo or sira ang tone pot mo kaya hindi nagfifilter 

Either because your caps are lousy AND your pickups are not boutique AND your amp is not up to the task.  Whew!!! That being said, the cheapo newer production caps are great for changing timbre.  So, I guess kanya kanya but cap type does create a difference aurally.

naks.

Not sure about this one because the boutique pickup guys tend to be selective of cap types e.g. Jim Rolph.  The one thing I like about Jim is that he sends me different cap types as a surprise.  Dave Stephens of Stevens Designs is also particular about caps.  Tim Mills of Bareknuckles is not so much into it but he does prescribe the new Angela caps.  Tonequest Report really believes in cap types as the write articles about NOS caps they discover.  So its seems the only guys who ascribe to cap type as having no importance are the guys who lack exposure to tone.  NOTE: I am NOT saying that other individual experiences are NOT valid its just that there are exceptions that are significantly/relevantly heard that make the assertion that cap type does not affect sound less scientific than it is presented by some here.

ah, NOS? kamusta ang actual values nila over marked values? may 40 years na ba? kasi kung meron, malaking posibilidad na nag-drift na yan.

So its seems the only guys who ascribe to cap type as having no importance are the guys who lack exposure to tone.

naks, dapat pala nag-gitara din sina Faraday nung araw para naging credible ang discoveries nila about caps, signal source, and cut-off frequencies.

[firemodel55]

1. because the pots (tone and volume) affects the load. (pots affect the load and caps don't?  Medyo if you subscribe to one, you should also subscribe to the other.)
2. prolly because EVH did not need them. (Or he felt that caps connected to a tone pot at full CW position affected tone.)
3. depends on the value of the tone pot. at 500K-1M, i would be straining my ears trying to hear the big difference. (Again, I understand your need for a 5 or 6 position rotary switch but still the question is what are you 'straining' to hear?  I think this is the point were we diverge a bit.)

kaya lang - in the context of cap types values and its effect  - the above questions are misleading. what you highlighted is the loading effect. (So to clarify, are you saying that loading with a capacitor with a tone pot at full CW can affect tone regardless of value or type?)

hindi naman talaga magkakaroon ng muddy tone KUNG nasa 10 (maximum resistance) ang tone pot mo. pero kung nasa 1 (minimum/almost zero resistance), aba, baka naman 1 picofarad lang ang cap mo or sira ang tone pot mo kaya hindi nagfifilter 

(You mentioned the word 'muddy' which is still cool for me to use in a varitone.  Mas maganda siguro kung on/off two position switch na lang instead of a pot. LoL)

naks.

ah, NOS? kamusta ang actual values nila over marked values? may 40 years na ba? kasi kung meron, malaking posibilidad na nag-drift na yan.

(How should I know the age.  Bigay lang ni Jim Rolph sa akin.  Mukhang bagong bago pa pero NOS na Cornell Dublier.  Did not check for drift but it behaves differently from modern polypropylene capacitors.)

naks, dapat pala nag-gitara din sina Faraday nung araw para naging credible ang discoveries nila about caps, signal source, and cut-off frequencies.

(Actually palagay ko bingi sina Faraday kasi hindi naman siya audio engineer.  Heh Heh.)

[dimasalang]

This is like a thread about scientists fighting over science versus religion. 

[Musikerochan]

(pots affect the load and caps don't?  Medyo if you subscribe to one, you should also subscribe to the other.)

you mentioned the blower switch (which IIRC is just a switch to take out the knobs out of the circuit). intindido na that i was referring to both controls. still, misleading question.

(Or he felt that caps connected to a tone pot at full CW position affected tone.)

how so? by rolling off SOME treble? i bet he didnt use his amp's treble knob too?

(Again, I understand your need for a 5 or 6 position rotary switch but still the question is what are you 'straining' to hear?  I think this is the point were we diverge a bit.)

treble loss. but such loss - in the realm of live sound - would be too insignificant. is/was there loss? shempre, may loading eh. it's important too to specify what gets lost. high frequencies, yes, but tone? haha, malabo.

(So to clarify, are you saying that loading with a capacitor with a tone pot at full CW can affect tone regardless of value or type?)

for the record, yes, i think so, depende sa value ng tone pot AND cap value, but not cap type. try using a 10megaohm pot (kung meron) and test if the so-called change is perfectly audible. a 1M pot will do.

(You mentioned the word 'muddy' which is still cool for me to use in a varitone.  Mas maganda siguro kung on/off two position switch na lang instead of a pot. LoL)

maganda yan. for tuning purposes using pedals (not clip-ons), importante IMO yung tone knob. pero mas maganda siguro yung rotary with different values para mas madami yung caps na pwede i-try. or a variable cap na lang.

(How should I know the age.  Bigay lang ni Jim Rolph sa akin.  Mukhang bagong bago pa pero NOS na Cornell Dublier.  Did not check for drift but it behaves differently from modern polypropylene capacitors.)

mukha pa talagang bago yan kasi new old stock eh. old stock na hindi nagamit, kaya bago pa rin. pero posibleng nagdrift na nga yan sa katandaan. baka lolo ko na yan ha?

(Actually palagay ko bingi sina Faraday kasi hindi naman siya audio engineer.  Heh Heh.)

hehehe, pero bingi din si beytoven ah?

[Rmansh]

do you guys think its funny Suhr and Tom andersons uses chicklet caps and standard alpha pots? no NOS caps or fancy grey tigers.

[Musikerochan]

^since i seldom take a peek on what others use because of disinterest, now that you mention it, it is - idk - funny, i guess

[jepbueno]

do you guys think its funny Suhr and Tom andersons uses chicklet caps and standard alpha pots? no NOS caps or fancy grey tigers.

wow, nacurious ako, di ba "bowtik" brands sila.. eheh mairesearch nga

[nickson]

Mon, what tone caps do NK guitars use? 

About tone caps, I have bowteek caps on my LP's but I got them that way. Honestly, if I switched from cheap caps to snake oil caps, I wouldn't or couldn't tell the difference.

While on my former LP with stock orange ceramic disc tone caps, when I switched to Gibson's fake bumblebees, I heard the difference but I wouldn't know if it were the caps that made the difference because I also changed pickups and pots. But I'm betting it was the pickups and the pots of course.

Yep, I said it. Snake oil. LOL.

Good read, good read. Cap noobs' gold.

[Rmansh]

^kts ata yun napili ko for high gain. i tested about 6 to 8 caps from ebay but this one seems better. pero magkakalapit sila.

[franzdean]

No perceptible difference, insofar as I am concerned. Then again, I may not have ears of gold to be able to distinguish.

I can hear a difference. A bit warmer, a bit brighter....

A BIT

I wouldn't waste time on caps though... adjust na lang ako sa EQ ng amp for that a bit warm, a bit brighter sound. 

[franzdean]

you...

mejo ma effort po kayo mag reply with the quotes. haha. na bilib lang ako. 

[shoegazer]

This just turned into another palakihan ng etits thread.

[Musikerochan]

^nag-digress kasi ang usapan. iba ang epekto ng loading ng pots (with cap, ok?) kesa sa mismong topic about cap types with the same values and their effect when used sa tone control.

[firemodel55]

you mentioned the blower switch (which IIRC is just a switch to take out the knobs out of the circuit). intindido na that i was referring to both controls. still, misleading question.

[ We cannot be sure that the blower switch was only meant to take out the pots.  It might have also been meant to take out the caps at full CW.]
[To quote Fender:So what exactly is a no-load pot? As Fender’s literature hinted, it has a detent at position 10 that completely bypasses any filtration via the tone capacitor and the load of the pot itself. Unlike the TBX tone control, which has a detent at position 5 (the middle setting) and gradually reduces the amount of filtration through the capacitor, the Delta Tone’s no-load feature eliminates it completely at the detent. As a result, you hear more of the direct, naked sound of the pickup.]
 
how so? by rolling off SOME treble? i bet he didnt use his amp's treble knob too?

[Actually we are BOTH wrong.  I checked what Van Halen had to say and I quote:The reason I used only one pickup and volume knob in the early days was actually out of complete ignorance.  When I tore apart my first Strat to put a humbucker in the bridge position, I didn’t have a clue as to how to wire up the other two pickups and the pickup selector switch.  So, (hoping it would work) I just soldered the humbucker straight to the volume knob and, “Voila,” it worked.  As time went on and I started designing my own guitars, I added the neck position pickup, because for years I actually kind of missed having one, but it does not influence how I approach songs.  It does, however, allow me to have different sound choices, mainly for soloing.]

treble loss. but such loss - in the realm of live sound - would be too insignificant. is/was there loss? shempre, may loading eh. it's important too to specify what gets lost. high frequencies, yes, but tone? haha, malabo.
[I disagree about it being too insignificant.  With great sounding tube amps, as the volume goes up, the tone control of the guitar plays a more important role in shaping the timbre and the pick attack.  So, I am still looking at other things other than treble loss.]

 for the record, yes, i think so, depende sa value ng tone pot AND cap value, but not cap type. try using a 10megaohm pot (kung meron) and test if the so-called change is perfectly audible. a 1M pot will do.
[At least we agree on that point but cap type more than value is more important for me in terms of great tone and not just in terms of roll off.  In fact, I have a varitone on my BC Rich USA Handmade Mockingbird wherein I can set up two of the same value but of different type and I can prove to you that its the type that adds that element of 'vintage' stickiness.]

maganda yan. for tuning purposes using pedals (not clip-ons), importante IMO yung tone knob. pero mas maganda siguro yung rotary with different values para mas madami yung caps na pwede i-try. or a variable cap na lang.

mukha pa talagang bago yan kasi new old stock eh. old stock na hindi nagamit, kaya bago pa rin. pero posibleng nagdrift na nga yan sa katandaan. baka lolo ko na yan ha?

[Baka hindi mo kilala si Jim Rolph... ]
hehehe, pero bingi din si beytoven ah?

[Bago siya naging bingi, nakakarinig ata siya kaysa sa mga nakakarinig rinigan diyan ngayon...]

[Musikerochan]

ehehe, hay. as per the OP's topic, measurable tests have shown the insignificance of cap types in the context of cut-off frequencies for caps when used as a tone control. except for loading issues, getting our panties in a bunch over cap types would be irrelevant.

cap values dictate the roll-off, physics said so.

[firemodel55]

ehehe, hay. as per the OP's topic, measurable tests have shown the insignificance of cap types in the context of cut-off frequencies for caps when used as a tone control. except for loading issues, getting our panties in a bunch over cap types would be irrelevant.

cap values dictate the roll-off, physics said so.

That's what they said when they believed that the world was flat...

Do YOU actually NOT hear a difference between cap types? 

[nathanmanansala]

That's what they said when they believed that the world was flat...

Do YOU actually NOT hear a difference between cap types?

that was what they said based on what they could see. when they tried to prove it, like they did in the test, they learned it was wrong.

may be they just havent invented intruments that can actually measure or detect what your ears can. and i DO have a problem with my left ear from a really bad high SPL snafu. i'm betting my dog can hear a difference din. but, whatever, the super caps are staying in my guitar and the guitar sounds good, plays well and stays in tune. thats all that matters to me.

[Musikerochan]

That's what they said when they believed that the world was flat...

Do YOU actually NOT hear a difference between cap types? 

if oscopes couldnt even find significant difference between cap of the SAME value, i doubt common human ears would. well, there may be exceptions. but there is very little likelihood.

a guitar that plays well, THAT is what i want.

[firemodel55]

if oscopes couldnt even find significant difference between cap of the SAME value, i doubt common human ears would. well, there may be exceptions. but there is very little likelihood.

a guitar that plays well, THAT is what i want.

Agree with you... guitars that play well is what I want too.  By the way, I think the human ear is a superior tool for hearing than an oscope.

[fretboard]

Agree with you... guitars that play well is what I want too.  By the way, I think the human ear is a superior tool for hearing than an oscope.

this

[Musikerochan]

Agree with you... guitars that play well is what I want too.  By the way, I think the human ear is a superior tool for hearing than an oscope.

human ears can hear high frequencies higher than dogs can?

[jepbueno]

Agree with you... guitars that play well is what I want too.  By the way, I think the human ear is a superior tool for hearing than an oscope.

+1

[analog.matt]

human ears can hear high frequencies higher than dogs can?

syempre when we talk about music, and in this instance, the guitar, its about what us humans can hear and appreciate. not what dogs or other animals can hear.

[Al_Librero]

I'm currently in the process of rewiring one of my guitars. I just soldered a treble bleed mod using an... OMG.... a ceramic cap. It's going to sound horrible!!!



Not. 

That's what they said when they believed that the world was flat...

Hilarious, coming from you.

By the way, I think the human ear is a superior tool for hearing than an oscope.

I certainly would hope so, lol. An oscilloscope isn't exactly a hearing tool, after all.

human ears can hear high frequencies higher than dogs can?

For what it's worth I agree with where you're coming from. I don't care much for going out of my way to get overpriced capacitors, either. Even if there is a difference, it can never get in the way of what I want to do as a player. Anybody who cannot do the same is little more than an oggling collector. I mean can you imagine how childish it would look like for someone to throw a tantrum and say he or she can't play his or her guitar anymore because somebody changed the tone caps from PIO to ceramics? LOL...

However, what we hear is not just a product of what our ears pick up, but also how our brain perceives it. Unlike the shape of the globe or actual frequencies, until somebody finds a way to completely understand how the human nervous system works, there's hardly anything we can do to quantify psychoacoustics in such a way where we can irrefutably bust or support any particular perception towards the myth of capacitor types.

[firemodel55]

I'm currently in the process of rewiring one of my guitars. I just soldered a treble bleed mod using an... OMG.... a ceramic cap. It's going to sound horrible!!!



Not. 
Hilarious, coming from you.
I certainly would hope so, lol. An oscilloscope isn't exactly a hearing tool, after all.

For what it's worth I agree with where you're coming from. I don't care much for going out of my way to get overpriced capacitors, either. Even if there is a difference, it can never get in the way of what I want to do as a player. Anybody who cannot do the same is little more than an oggling collector. I mean can you imagine how childish it would look like for someone to throw a tantrum and say he or she can't play his or her guitar anymore because somebody changed the tone caps from PIO to ceramics? LOL...

However, what we hear is not just a product of what our ears pick up, but also how our brain perceives it. Unlike the shape of the globe or actual frequencies, until somebody finds a way to completely understand how the human nervous system works, there's hardly anything we can do to quantify psychoacoustics in such a way where we can irrefutably bust or support any particular perception towards the myth of capacitor types.

OMG... treble bleed.... the cheopo man's fix for bad sounding pickups.  LOL.  Joke lang.  Dude,  change the pickups!  Ooops.  I forgot bawal pala dito magkaroon ng boutique pickups na maganda.  Well then carry on -- whatever brings you happiness. 

But seriously, ceramic caps have their own thing too.