"Playing" an amp = Distinctive Tone

[blue buddha]

This is an extension of a discussion on the last "Blue Rats at Mag:net" thread in the the Gig Announcements Forum.

Quote from: deltaslim
Sometimes the most kalat are the most fun!  This is one of them.  You guys were having fun anyway and it showed and rubbed off on the audience.  I for one thoroughly enjoyed those 2 sets.

Thanks for the jam!

PS - Bakit maganda yung Matchless mo? Yung ibang Matchless na na-try ko, supot!

Quote from: blue buddha
Sometimes we have just a little too much fun up there -- we keep on telling each other that we should be more "professional" about it and quit the inside jokes.... but all it takes is for someone to bring a little "blues in a bottle" (in this case a bottle of Jim Beam -- a proper blues drink) and that's the end of any "professional seriousness". Suddenly everything is funny because practically everyone in the band has something laughable in their closets.  grin

Re: the Matchless. The answer is, "the tubes". When it sat in Soundsgood for many years, it sounded rather ordinary with the stock Russian and Chinese tube complement. With NOS Mullards and Siemens' in there, it's another story altogether.

Quote from: deltaslim
i don't doubt it, esp since you changed both preamp and output tubes. but i like the overall eq shape of your amp. yun di ko nagustuhan sa Hot Box e.  most noticeable when YOU are playing it. i know your settings sa amp na yan, relatively clean but very meaty, detailed, and tight.  not overly compressed too.  well, apples and oranges din kasi amp vs pedal.

TT - ayan na!  pero mas gusto ko pa rin si JP w/ a Rat.  you can try my FD2 and Tim -- baka magka-idea ka kung ano gusto/ayaw and pros/cons nito and help you make an informed decision.  extensive research ko dyan bago ako bumili nitong dalawa.

Ultimately in my opinion, decent tone begins with good ingredients -- a good amp with good components (in this case, good tubes) + a good guitar. But the biggest factor is really how you "play" the amp and the guitar -- tone is in the fingers, ika nga -- because what you do with that sound and how you take advantage of it is really what produces the distinctive tone or "that sound". Was just talking with Joey P. and we both agree that it's really "what you do with what you have" that defines it -- not the other way around.

The tone coming out of that Matchless amp is probably a case in point re: playing the amp. The replacement tubes are definitely a factor in the sound, but how one sets the amp is the key to the end result: there are ony 4 controls on the amp -- gain, bass, treb, and master vol. To get a clean sound, most folks would keep the gain down at 8 or 9 o'clock, bass at 12 noon, treb at 2 or 3 o'clock, master volume at 3 or 4 o'clock, and guitar on "10" full up. Now this sounds great when you're alone in a room playing by yourself -- super cleans, depressed mids, emphasized highs and lows -- no problem. But in a live band context with everyone battling for narrow bandwith... fuggedaboudit! The result would be constipated, no cut, no meat, and relatively thin -- and no room to move because your guitar's on 10 already! What I do for a great clean tone is to start with the gain on 11 o'clock-12 noon, bass at 9 oclock, treb at 3 oclock, master vol at 2 oclock, and guitar vol at "5" or "6". Then I mess with the guitar's volume and tone control on the fly to get the right level relative to the rest of the band. The gain and master vol. turned up relatively high assures that the amp is "bristling" and operating in an "opened up" mode so it doesn't sound constipated and cold. The bass turned down assures that you're not competing with the bass player and keeps the lows tight and "unfarty" at gig level. These settings assure that the rich mids come to the foreground and give the amp good cut, even in clean mode. Then there's what you do with your fingers....

Am much more of a rhythm player than a lead dude, so it's important that that the chunk, braaannggg, "sundot-sundot" and "kabastusan" are all there and audible. Among the things I do are to mute with my palm a lot so the tight, pecussive stuff comes barking through. I hit those strings pretty hard -- I typically kill 2 or 3 fender "heavy" picks in the course of a 12 - 14 song set -- both edges 1/3 of the way down near the tip end up feeling like a raggedy, serrated fish knife by the time I'm done. For uptempo blues, it's also important that there's "movement" in the song such that the song feels like it's being driven by the rhythm guitar (Keef's the master at this). To do this, you really can't always play all 6 strings of every chord -- otherwise any amp will sound like mush and there's no variety from phrase to phrase. So I try and vary the strings I hit to do different voicings within the same chord -- lower strings for the low horn lines, middle strings for guitar, mid horn, and keyboard lines, and upper string triads for high horn and funky r&b fills. Hit the strings hard for a pushed sound, stroke it gently for the quieter tunes. For dirt, it's also relevant that the style of music is the blues. Just fiddling with the guitar's volume knob gives the level and quality of appropriate overdrive without pedals. So the preference for the style of music counts too. All this stuff contributes greatly to how the guitar is perceived tonally and the overall sound of the band. It's not by any stretch the only valid approach to getting a good sound, but it's certainly one way to go.

In the end, getting a distinctive, good tone is a function of understanding and therefore being able to manipulate your gear's limitations, and making the adjustments to play to its strengths. It has always been the case that the great players have been able to make marginal gear sound terrific. It's never been the other way around -- lousy players have never really been able to make even the greatest gear sound fantastic. In my book, the greatest amps have always been those which are referenced against the music I like, and put out tones which are proportional to the skill and style one puts in. Simple lang -- "play" the amp.... kanya kanya lang 'yan. Hehehe. 

[deltaslim]

Great post, BB.  Lotsa interesting and informative bits in there.

After the gig, Joey was commending me for cutting through during the jams (I guess that's a minor miracle for a jammer w/ the Blue Rats, what with 8 band members!).  But I jokingly said that he probably meant I was too loud (eg, my wife said I was "angat").  But Joey said I needed to be 'angat' since I was supposed to solo.  I shared my settings with him and explained why I "played the amp" that way. Settings were vol at 12 noon, master at 12 noon, treble about 10 o clock and bass at about 11 o clock.  I had the gtr volume anywhere from 3 for rhythm to 8 to 10 for solos.

At full bore all the time, it would have been too loud and annoying.  But with the slide playing, there's a volume threshold at which you can get good feedback have the guitar mechanically vibrate from the sound pressue coming out of the amp speakers.  It will literally vibrate the guitar and sustain a slid note even without plucking it.  Just lay it on the strings and start "talking".  Very cool trick!  When you achieve this, you can do away with preamp or pedals for sustain. Just add dirt as desired for character.  But at that volume, you will naturally get dirt from the power amp already.  But clarity and punch is better than with preamp or pedals (unless you use it as a boost).

So yeah, I agree, "playing an amp" is another one of those fascinating black arts of the guitar. 

[Kulas]

eto idea ko...

guitar + amp = sound
guitar + amp + fingers = tone

hehe. makes sense ba?

[tele-tubby]

but there are times when the gear really plays you instead hehehe...

[tele-tubby]

eto idea ko...

guitar + amp = sound
guitar + amp + fingers = tone

hehe. makes sense ba?

pilosopikal ka talaga pareng kulas!

[deltaslim]

eto idea ko...

guitar + amp = sound
guitar + amp + fingers = tone

hehe. makes sense ba?

actually, this makes sense. pero...

gtr + amp = potential for a range of sounds because you don't know the sound until someone plays both the gtr and amp di ba?

when we say tone is in the fingers, some individuals oversimplify and reduce it to just those digits at the end of our hands.  even if you reduced it to physiology, guitar playing involves more than just fingers, abot yan hanggang arms and shoulders (watch tele_tubby, for instance ). 

but by "tone is in the fingers" we actually refer to the player as a whole, which includes his left/right hand technique but also his knowledge of how to tweak and play the amp, gtr, situations, etc...

and when we say "great tone = lotsa practice", it includes practice and gaining knowledge on everything i mention above, not just finger/hand techniques.

[blue buddha]

+1. exactamundo.

[Poundcake]

wow.. finally a thread with sense! puro away, gear wars at dramahan (mga na-hurt dahil nacriticize ang gear nila) na lang dito lately e. great post, blue_buddha!

i completely agree with "playing" the amp.  i usually tweak my whole rig in such a way that the mids are more accentuated than the highs. i don't set my treble at 3:00 because i prefer a darker tone out of my equipment. my typical EQ setting is 5 treble, 7 mid, 5-6 bass (but of course, it varies from rig to rig).

pero as soon as i get back to playing, i'll try something similar to blue_buddha's approach.. very interesting e. thanks for the good read! please post more "tips and tricks" because these types of posts are what Guitar Central should be all about and not endless mudslinging that can't help us guitarists at all

[Jaco D]

Finally, an Alka Seltzer  .  Been reading too much hot and spicy stuff, na-impatcho na ako.  Must be the season of gastriatic excesses.  Anyway, since I'm left-of-center with regards to the tone-deaf continuum, this is an oasis.  Yeah, more of those "tips" would be appreciated.  Hopefully they're not brand-specific since that would be no good to those who don't have the specific gear.  Example:  how do you get that jazz guitar sound ala Wes M. or Pat M., etc?  Can you create a decent facsimile of it with a solid body axe?  What effects if ever are necessary?  Amp settings?  Most of all, playing style?

[blue buddha]

but there are times when the gear really plays you instead hehehe...

Hehehe. Sometimes, it does happen that you pick up someone's axe and play it through the rig and you can't seem to make a bad sound nor mess anything up as we all usually do. It seems that the gear is playing you.

What's really happening is that you've just stumbled upon a combination of factors -- guitar, pickups, string gauge, action and setup, amp, amp settings, the room, other components in the signal chain -- that suit your particular style and approach to playing. When this happens, be sure you take notes!!! 

But it won't mean that the stuff will be as satisfying for others as it is for you. If you were a rootsy blueser, chances are that the setup won't be cat's meow for a refined jazzer or an extreme metalhead -- that pushed 5e3 tweed deluxe tone won't cut it versus a nice polytone amp, or the 7.5" vintage fretboard radius might pale against the super flat wizard neck that goes so well with your four nose rings and shaved eyebrows. 

[blue buddha]

Finally, an Alka Seltzer  .  Been reading too much hot and spicy stuff, na-impatcho na ako.  Must be the season of gastriatic excesses.  Anyway, since I'm left-of-center with regards to the tone-deaf continuum, this is an oasis.  Yeah, more of those "tips" would be appreciated.  Hopefully they're not brand-specific since that would be no good to those who don't have the specific gear.  Example:  how do you get that jazz guitar sound ala Wes M. or Pat M., etc?  Can you create a decent facsimile of it with a solid body axe?  What effects if ever are necessary?  Amp settings?  Most of all, playing style?

   The principles are definitely not brand specific, but the settings may vary from amp to amp for example -- maybe even from guitar to guitar. There such a variety in how these things are constructed and voiced.

Having said that, yes -- if you understand what makes up Wes or Pat's sounds, you can get a pretty good facsimile of those distinctive tones with a solidbody axe. Going back to our friend Joey P., he sometimes does precisely that with a strat, tele, LP, or 335 when we're noodling around in between tunes at reahearsals. Usually, he's plugged either into a tweed bassman re-issue or a tiny pro junior -- all this couldn't be further from Super 400's, L5's, Switchmasters, ES 175's, etc. For Wes, the key of course is "playing" the gear with the right approach to get you close: up with the bass, down with the trebs, nice centered mids, neck PU on, etc. But the biggest factor is what you do on the strings. It's the lightness and agility of that left hand, the stroke of the bare thumb, phrasing of melody, and the chord choice/voicings that complete the "aural illusion" and makes what you hear recognizably "tonally Wes".

For the record, I'm totally incapable of doing it even with if you shoved Wes' own guitar and amp in my hands. Joey creates the facsimile with the above-mentioned gear, and I don't doubt that he'd be able to conjure up a recognizable, respectable memory even with an SS amp and a Parker Fly. Go figure.

[deltaslim]

For the longest time, I've been wondering how to make my guitar sound like a blues harmonica amplified w/ a bullet mic and a small tweed amp.  You know, that growling Little Walter wall of sound!

Meron ba pwede mag-tip?

[Perf_De_Castro]

For the longest time, I've been wondering how to make my guitar sound like a blues harmonica amplified w/ a bullet mic and a small tweed amp.  You know, that growling Little Walter wall of sound!

Meron ba pwede mag-tip?

Not sure if it's Little Walter-ish but I recorded a blues harp-ish tone using a wah, flanger and an overdriven Fender Bronco amp (SS)! And no, this is not a joke.

The wah gives out the vocal inflections, the flanger (set at a fast rate) gives the impression of the hand flutter and the Bronco gave it that bullet mic through a tweedy tone. Best when use double stops for maximum blues harp warbles   

[deltaslim]

For the longest time, I've been wondering how to make my guitar sound like a blues harmonica amplified w/ a bullet mic and a small tweed amp.  You know, that growling Little Walter wall of sound!

Meron ba pwede mag-tip?

Not sure if it's Little Walter-ish but I recorded a blues harp-ish tone using a wah, flanger and an overdriven Fender Bronco amp (SS)! And no, this is not a joke.

The wah gives out the vocal inflections, the flanger (set at a fast rate) gives the impression of the hand flutter and the Bronco gave it that bullet mic through a tweedy tone. Best when use double stops for maximum blues harp warbles   

Thanks, Perf!  I'll try this with the Tonelab muna before GAS-ing for a flanger, a Bronco, and a wah!

Btw, at home it's fun to wank on slide the Tonelab's wah or envelope filter, compressor, and a volume pedal.  Parang human voice talaga.  Pero I'm not good enough with tap dancing to do it  live.  Maybe someday...

[tele-tubby]

yeah I think think the wah would be the way to go for harp-simulation [gooey brown stuff]... of some kind of filter

[oasgomez-is-banned]

Blue Buddha,

Just for clarification, I hope you do not mind.  There is no agenda involved here.

If you get rid of the equipment limitations, like when you upgraded your Matchless with NOS tubes, did it make you any less of a great player? When you upgraded did you sound better? play better? at least feel better? All things being equal at that point in time.

[micr0chimp]

hmm...wah, flanger, and slide...i've always wanted to experiment with different filters going on at the same time. i also read about using microphone phase relationships to cancel out/attenuate different frequency spectrums when recording. add a slide for microtonal inflections and it can get really interesting...hmm...

for the record, i'm a complete dumbass at amp tweaking. total tonal idiot. i usually flail away with more mayhem than method. this is very helpful stuff you guys are throwing our way! salamat ng madami! 

[deltaslim]

for the record, i'm a complete dumbass at amp tweaking. total tonal idiot. i usually flail away with more mayhem than method. this is very helpful stuff you guys are throwing our way! salamat ng madami! 

well, sayang pala yung classic 30 mo.  benta o trade mo na lang sa akin!  gusto ko ng small tweed amp e.

[micr0chimp]

nagpapasalamat nga ako't may pag-asa na ako matuto gamitin dahil sa thread na ito, fafa.  dapat di ako sumasama masyado sa inyo e. nakakahawa kayo! wala akong pera!!!

[blue buddha]

Blue Buddha,

Just for clarification, I hope you do not mind.  There is no agenda involved here.

If you get rid of the equipment limitations, like when you upgraded your Matchless with NOS tubes, did it make you any less of a great player? When you upgraded did you sound better? play better? at least feel better? All things being equal at that point in time.

Hi OAS,

No prob. Am not really into agendas either. No, of course not -- no one would become less of a player if one "upgrades" to improve their gear. And yes -- when one finds the stuff that one likes, inevitably he's happier... thinks the sound is better, feels better, and imagines himself to be playing better as the gear becomes more aligned with a personal playing style, tonal preferences, and personal performance expectations. I certainly wouldn't be an exception to that. Kaya nga we all have this "disease" e... hehehe.

Having said that, not everyone is happy with what some conventionally consider as "upgrades". Just as an example: I had a discussion with another "tonehead" (someone we both know well) about preamp tubes. Almost without exception, he says that he ends up preferring the usual run of the mill 12ax7EH over Mullard ECC83's or most any other NOS 12ax7 type tube in his Marshalls, even though the NOS stuff would conventionally be thought of as upgrades (and far, far more expensive). He preferred the more forward "modern" hi-gain tone that the EH (or even the humble chinese OEM's) produced over the warmth and body of the NOS stuff. Another dude I know prefers the raggedy edge of the cheapest ceramic disc caps in his LP's tone circuits over the bumblebees, black beauties, hovlands or PIO caps that tonehounds exalt in the Tone Quest Report and pay stupid money for these days. Go figure. The world is wide, the choices varied, and that's what makes these pursuits so much fun.

Beyond this, others really get off on being able to manipulate very humble gear to get terrific results. These are the guys who I really admire -- those who really "play the gear" -- who can morph their playing styles and approaches to the instruments to get the most out of just about anything. I remember playing a wedding in the mid 90's where I was plugged into an old, dilapidated silverface bassman head that the sound guys had brought. Hated the sound plugged straight in -- I think the tubes were shot. So I pulled out a sansamp pedal, fiddled a lot, and tried to do the best I could. The sound still sucked. So I played with a sucky sound through the band's set -- nothing more I could do... or so I thought....

.... then the next "main band" comes on. I tell the guitar player, "sorry brod, medyo pangit ang gamit -- tiis nalang tayo. You're welcome to the pedal and try your luck". So he plugs his strat (just like mine) into the rig with my settings, hits a few notes and chords, and voila! he sounds...... sucky, just like me. 

Then the miracle happens. He turns around, gives me that "knowing smile", and proceeds to tinker with the pedal settings and the amp knobs, spanking his strings, messing with his guitar knobs, etc. By the time that band dove into their first song, the dude sounded like Mark Knopfler, SRV, and Andy Summers all rolled into one. He was happy as a clam. I was floored. A total "lesson #1" in humility and "how to play the gear". After they got off, takbo ako sa rig like the biggest geek to write down the settings on a paper napkin. 

In a nutshell, the gear, mods, and "upgrades" only gets you partially there. You do the best you can to get close to your preferences. But the final outcome really does depend so much on understanding the parameters that affects the tone you like, manipulating those parameters on the gear, and finally, physically playing in a way that brings out the things you want to bring out. So much can be done on the humblest of gear -- even on an old, tired amp with tubes that are shot.

[Kulas]

i agree 100% BB! tiyaga lang talaga sa tweaking. it helps a lot to have great gear. pero some can definitely do with the "humble" gear they have. as long as hindi super panget talaga, tweakable na.

[glassjaw_jc]

I remember RJ demoing a Hot Cabs amp with a low-end RJ guitar. I was floored because he can cop that knopfler tone. I'm not saying that Hot Cabs is the "it" and it was at the time that RJ guitars are at their suckiest... but he knows... as buddha says, "play the gear"...

[vegetablejoe]

for the record, i'm a complete dumbass at amp tweaking. total tonal idiot. i usually flail away with more mayhem than method. this is very helpful stuff you guys are throwing our way! salamat ng madami! 

well, sayang pala yung classic 30 mo.  benta o trade mo na lang sa akin!  gusto ko ng small tweed amp e.

oo, pati yung ext cab kunin ko n uli! 

[oasgomez-is-banned]

Blue Buddha,

Thanks for the reply.  Have yourself and your family a Merry Christmas.  By the way, Blue Buddha is considered a Philippine National Treasure at least somebody related to him is at the minimum.  So you guys better take good care of him on this forum. 

[blue buddha]

And to you too OAS. It's always nice to know that there are others who are willing to go out on a limb -- way out --to find their version of sonic heaven. Makes those of us so inclined feel that we're not the only ones in this particular looney bin! 

Merry X'mas to you and your family.