How do you define a PROFESSIONAL in recording?

[astrobog]

....yes....the professional has to be good in recognizing in 1 dB differences...

mixing in a studio requires a different ear....that is the reason why if you look at foreign acts with good recordings have different engineers for tour and in the studio.  try to compare local recordings with those done in countries where cutting corners is not a norm and you will hear the difference...

[KitC]

:goes back to fondling uli behringer:

OT: Somehow, that didn't come out right. 

[Speed_Kills]

1) Has PROFESSIONAL equipment to do the job.

2) Does not use lousy equipment masquerading as professional equipment.

3) Understands the science of sound.

4) Doesnt mix or listen to studio monitors louder than normal speaking voice.

5) Most important.....Can easily tell if there was a 1 db difference in audio level blindly.

+.001

hehhehe
 

[glowstick]

to each its own....i don't stoop down to people who don't know what they are talking about...

a professional needs professional equipment to do a task the right the first time and everytime...can't live with that?  that is not my problem anymore....

i am not surprised that most recordings sound crappy...

again...to each its own..

if you want go ahead with a 300 peso counterfeit sm58 in your neighborhood bangketa to record your dream album...i dont care...

[glowstick]

....yes....the professional has to be good in recognizing in 1 dB differences...

sez who?

i do  and others who know how it should be done properly..

if the term PROFESSIONAL is about getting paid for the job then you might as well record your next album with the nearest karaoke king in your vicinity...

karaoke king gets paid and leave it as that

now that's professional...   i don't care if you're happy with that definition but i have my own definition and i leave you with your own opinion..

[KitC]

a professional needs professional equipment to do a task the right the first time and everytime...can't live with that?  that is not my problem anymore....

i am not surprised that most recordings sound crappy...

Some of the best early recordings at BBC and Abbey Road were done with what were essentially DIY gear. Over time, these gear became associated with some famous names like Neve, Putnam, etc. Even Joe Meek invented some gear that were considered extreme by his peers.

All this preoccupation with 'professional' gear detracts one from what we should really be doing, and that is capturing the moment, the muse. Sure, the tried and true formulas work, that's the reason they become standards. But what if someone suddenly makes a hit solely based on 'non-professional' gear? I'm betting that the market value of that particular product will go up when word gets around. Will it make that brand suddenly professional? Will it make the engineer who recorded that hit a sudden household name?

As food for thought, in 1997, Jyoti Mishra, also known as White Town, made a #1 UK hit called "Your Woman". I remember watching the video on MTV so I'm sure it got sizable US airplay. What's not so well known is that Your Woman was recorded on a Tascam 688 8-track (no Otaris, and he only used 5 of the 8 available tracks), a Casio CZ-101 was used for the basslines. His reverb? An Alesis Midiverb II. Mic used was a cheap Tandy (Radioshack) Realistic PZM... not exactly top of the line gear used by top recording studios then.

[abyssinianson]

to each its own....i don't stoop down to people who don't know what they are talking about...

a professional needs professional equipment to do a task the right the first time and everytime...can't live with that?  that is not my problem anymore....

i am not surprised that most recordings sound crappy...

again...to each its own..

if you want go ahead with a 300 peso counterfeit sm58 in your neighborhood bangketa to record your dream album...i dont care...

"stoop down"? i would be careful with that statement. a lot of the folks here a veterans of the Philmusic scene and others have had extensive experience working in the studio/ pro audio field outside of the country. Some have been (or are currently) enrolled in pro audio engineering degree granting programs from SAE and Berklee as well. A few run labels, work with touring acts all the time, teach and maintain professional recording environments which work regularly with a variety of artists so i would tread carefully with that elitist attitude. Mikep, gerard, shinji, hazel, kit and the rest of the folks here who have been a  part of the Phil music scene for a long time have a ton of experience that should not be taken lightly.

the reason why I questioned the relevance of being able to tell a 1db difference in audio is because it doesn't make sense. to be able to tell the difference of 1 db outside the context of a song in a mix is useless and I can tell you from personal experience this is true, it isn't a simple case of "to each his own." rather than say a pro needs to be able to determine a 1db difference would be more properly presented when you say that a pro working on a mix needs to be able to compare different tracks in a mix and determine when it is too loud or too quiet.

kit is right. the Neve stuff started off as a DIY projects and they eventually became a standard for a particular sound. to this day, people use Neve stuff too but work in the studio is never bound by the stuff you can buy and the engineers I know always bend circuits, work on DIY pres and gadgets to further improve the sound that they are working with. a professional isn't defined by the gear he works with, rather, a pro is defined by their ability to consistently produce, mediate and nurture a project from infancy to completion. sure you need good gear to produce good work but if you have an SSL, ICON, C24 or one of those Ghost consoles and don't know the channel EQ knob from a bus monitor knob then you don't have any business being in the studio in the first place. time costs money and your job as a professional is to make sure that the money you are getting is justified by your ability to work efficiently with whatever gear you have. i've worked with everything from a Neve Console to a mackie 32/4 mixer to a Toft 8 channel board and I can tell you that the conditions to do a good job doesn't change...you have to adapt and keep your eyes on the larger issue of producing a project well and making sure that you are able to address a client's concern efficiently with a good working knowledge of various equipment.

[moogerfooger]

5) Most important.....Can easily tell if there was a 1 db difference in audio level blindly.

hmmm.. siguro mga 1.8 man lng

[glowstick]

Let me emphasize the word kit used...extreme...which is a reflection of wanting to capture the performance perfectly just as if you were at the performance of the artist itself.  That is PROFESSIONAL.  Using the best tools possible to record.  Neve, Putham and Meek were engineers in the real sense and knew what they are doing.  That is the reason why they have made a fortune in making gears because their gears work really well more than the common mainstream "pro" equipment.  In these days, does anyone here in P.I. really breaks his neck to make his own gear that's better than the mainstream?  Do we have a Neve, Meek, or a Putham here?

Also, let us draw the line between professionally recorded material and being a commercially profitable song.  These two are entirely different areas.  Crappy recordings are totally different from crappy songs 

About the 1 dB difference?  If that is irrrelevant to you then then it means you are not picky on setting up levels of different tracks to balance it altogether.  Sorry but I am picky. 

Again...everyone is entitled to what it means by Professional.

[abyssinianson]

Let me emphasize the word kit used...extreme...which is a reflection of wanting to capture the performance perfectly just as if you were at the performance of the artist itself.  That is PROFESSIONAL.  Using the best tools possible to record.  Neve, Putham and Meek were engineers in the real sense and knew what they are doing.  That is the reason why they have made a fortune in making gears because their gears work really well more than the common mainstream "pro" equipment.  In these days, does anyone here in P.I. really breaks his neck to make his own gear that's better than the mainstream?  Do we have a Neve, Meek, or a Putham here?

Also, let us draw the line between professionally recorded material and being a commercially profitable song.  These two are entirely different areas.  Crappy recordings are totally different from crappy songs 

About the 1 dB difference?  If that is irrrelevant to you then then it means you are not picky on setting up levels of different tracks to balance it altogether.  Sorry but I am picky. 

Again...everyone is entitled to what it means by Professional.

ask the local pros..i am sure someone uses a Neve somewhere or a similar piece of gear. since mikep has built studios for other people, i'd ask him. i haven't set foot on Phil soil in over 15 years so I wouldn't know what is there and what isn't but I wouldn't doubt that some Pinoy studios have some sweet pieces of gear.

as far as being picky with audio settings during a mix, you are preaching to the choir, amigo.

[titser_marco]

As food for thought, in 1997, Jyoti Mishra, also known as White Town, made a #1 UK hit called "Your Woman". I remember watching the video on MTV so I'm sure it got sizable US airplay. What's not so well known is that Your Woman was recorded on a Tascam 688 8-track (no Otaris, and he only used 5 of the 8 available tracks), a Casio CZ-101 was used for the basslines. His reverb? An Alesis Midiverb II. Mic used was a cheap Tandy (Radioshack) Realistic PZM... not exactly top of the line gear used by top recording studios then.

Seriously? Grabe, I happen to think that that song is brilliant! Thanks for the google-lead!

[glowstick]

as far as being picky with audio settings during a mix, you are preaching to the choir, amigo.

  you're free not to listen and you're free to do that as long as you like...have you wondered why neighboring asian movies and albums proliferate more than what we in P.I. made ones?

again, you're free not to listen anyway...i just answered the question...

How do you define a PROFESSIONAL in recording?

 

[glowstick]

as far as being picky with audio settings during a mix, you are preaching to the choir, amigo.

  you're free not to listen and you're free to do that as long as you like...have you wondered why neighboring asian movies and albums proliferate more than what we in P.I. made ones?

again, you're free not to listen anyway...i just answered the question...

How do you define a PROFESSIONAL in recording?

 

[skunkyfunk]

Hmmm, a 1dBFS difference when my monitors are cranked is more perceptible than if it were halfway cranked. Wait, is glowstick describing dB or dBFS?

[abyssinianson]

How do you define a PROFESSIONAL in recording?

 

who knows why other Asian made products proliferate more than PI made ones - market demand? I happen to think the quality of the songwriting from Pinoy artists are just as good as everyone else in the world so maybe we haven't built up as large a following as other countries' music.

A professional, to me, is defined as a person who is hired to get a job done and does so efficiently and properly while maintaining a good working environment as a result of their experience in the field. A professional focuses on the larger picture of getting a music project done while taking the time to listen to the artist and produce their music as best as possible. A professional is PAID on the basis of their ability to work with different gear - not just commercially available one - and adapt to a given studio environment to record music. Now, a professional may not always have their own music studio (as is usually the case) so they jump from one studio to another depending on who books them through a particular management firm. Some do this work fulltime and others do it part-time, thus controlling the amount of projects and clients they work with. Other studio professionals seek music projects out while others are specifically asked because of the past projects they've produced; each producer and engineer have their particular sound. Just like I prefer specific mastering houses for passing my work to, so do artists in the process of choosing an engineer or producer. When you've built a relationship with record labels, for instance, this usually helps you get work based on word-of-mouth referrals and people listening to your records or CDs.

A professional is also usually a registered member of specific music organizations depending on what they do and what type of work they take on. In my case, I am registered member of ASCAP as well as AES.

And you are right, I am free to not listen to what you say, however, I feel it is disrespectful to downplay the experience of the other really good professionals on this board who are far more experienced and accomplished than I. You do not look down to these people regardless of your right to express free opinion, rather, you defer to what they've done because they've already put in a TON of effort and time into the Pinoy music scene and those dues mean a lot and shouldn't be taken lightly.

[glowstick]

to each its own...

now at least there's one that hears the 1 db difference....

to me, membership is just a clique but referrals can mean so many things...

to parallel these there's KBP but this does not mean much...i don't know for the others here...

but then skunk knows the difference..much respect to you.

[KitC]

Seriously? Grabe, I happen to think that that song is brilliant! Thanks for the google-lead!

You can find the White Town article over at Sound on Sound. I think I have a copy of the issue... or a Future Music article somewhere. I think it's the ones who push the boundaries who are defining where our music is going nowadays... the ones who think outside of the box. Kind of like Joe Meek's 'extreme' recording techniques which are in use today such as multiple over-dubbing on one- and two-track machines, close miking, direct input of bass guitars, the compressor, and effects like echo and reverb, as well as sampling.

About dBFS, I'm sure you can hear the difference between -1 dBFS and 0 dBFS when one's monitor volume is high, say at 85 dB SPL or more? But due to the logarithmic nature of sound, I'm pretty sure it's hard to hear 1 dB difference at SPLs below 60 dB without referring to a RTA.

[abyssinianson]

You can find the White Town article over at Sound on Sound. I think I have a copy of the issue... or a Future Music article somewhere. I think it's the ones who push the boundaries who are defining where our music is going nowadays... the ones who think outside of the box. Kind of like Joe Meek's 'extreme' recording techniques which are in use today such as multiple over-dubbing on one- and two-track machines, close miking, direct input of bass guitars, the compressor, and effects like echo and reverb, as well as sampling.

About dBFS, I'm sure you can hear the difference between -1 dBFS and 0 dBFS when one's monitor volume is high, say at 85 dB SPL or more? But due to the logarithmic nature of sound, I'm pretty sure it's hard to hear 1 dB difference at SPLs below 60 dB without referring to a RTA.

OT: it turns out White Town is still playing live at small clubs. "Your Woman" was a catchy song.

[LouieAzcona]

1) Has PROFESSIONAL equipment to do the job.

How would you define a PROFESSIONAL equipment?

[fascinatedbymusic]

1) Has PROFESSIONAL equipment to do the job.

2) Does not use lousy equipment masquerading as professional equipment.

3) Understands the science of sound.

4) Doesnt mix or listen to studio monitors louder than normal speaking voice.

5) Most important.....Can easily tell if there was a 1 db difference in audio level blindly.

Why 1db and not 0.5db?

[glowstick]

How would you define a PROFESSIONAL equipment?

A professional equipment is a tool that does the job right the first time and everytime...The professional does it right the first time....no room for mistakes and no corrections are needed in the finished product...

1 dB is the least discernible difference (for a trained ear proven by audiogram)....

Now deal with the comments of the consumers.....

http://www.interpunk.com/item.cfm?Item=60348&

http://www.bangag.com/opm-album-reviews/1169-ultraelectromagneticpop-1st-album-ng-eraserheads.html

Need I say more?

[xjepoyx]

hmmm another visual guy and a gearhead

[mikep]

ask the local pros..i am sure someone uses a Neve somewhere or a similar piece of gear. since mikep has built studios for other people, i'd ask him. i haven't set foot on Phil soil in over 15 years so I wouldn't know what is there and what isn't but I wouldn't doubt that some Pinoy studios have some sweet pieces of gear.

There are several users of pro equipment like Neves, SSL, etc. in the Philippines.  GC4 headed by Gerard Salonga has a lot of Neve stuff.  ABS-CBN has Focusrites and other nice gears.  The old Cinema Audio and Ad and Ad have pro gear ever since.  We have just added a new Neve Digital Pre-amp in our studio aside from the TL Audio tube pres and eqs we have had long ago.  There are indeed a lot of users of pro equipment locally.

Regarding 1 dB difference, I know for a fact that a 3 dB change is quite discernible.  A 2 dB difference, if you really have a very good set of ears.  1 dB?  Quite a feat, I believe.     

I cannot tell a 1 dB difference, honestly.  But I believe I am in the pro recording business.  To me, it is not the ability to tell dB changes that is important, but being able to discern the overall sound of the recording you are working on.  Are the cymbals sizzling?  The vocals up front, clear, impressive; is the stereo spread or sound stage huge?  Does it create an impact on the listener?  The tonal quality balanced?  Is the frequency spectrum properly used?  Enveloping?  These are just a few of the things one should ask in mixing.  A true professional (aside from being paid for what he is doing), should be able to answer the above questions and more.  He should be dedicated to his work, honest with his dealings with his clients, aspires for the highest standards in workmanship and,  most of all, when his clients go out of the door, they should be fully satisfied for the services rendered and will come back for more additional work.  Finally, his work should create an impact, a good impression and contribution not only for his clients' well being, but to listeners and the industry as a whole. 

[skunkyfunk]

For the record, I can hear 1 dB difference in a MIX scenario.  Say you have a guitar track sitting pretty good on the mix, but you decide to raise it 1dB higher (wrtFS) .  The difference is felt not in terms of volume, but in terms of timbre.  The mids stick out much better than it was 1dB less.  But to say it felt LOUDER is not really the major effect of a 1dB boost.

Even in mastering, a 0.5dB being pushed before a hard-limiter to get an ultimate 2x4 waveform squashed sound makes a whole world of difference.  Even though we're talking about RMS volume, a mix which is 0.5dB louder is very noticeable.

[glowstick]

That's why audiograms are really important to know where you stand and more important is the "professional" takes care of his/her ears especially as we (all of us) grow old. 

So to the musicians here who do mixing as well, take care of your ears.  I remember mixing live for a famous act (I won't mention his name but he's really freakin' famous as in magaling) and he was never satisfied with the sound pressure levels from his wedge though the monitor amps (600Wrms@8 ohms) were near peak and the monitors differ like about 3 to 6 db from their FOH.  Sayang bangag na yung tenga niya iniisip ko.  That's why I really admire bands that can work with little if not no monitors (in small venues) at all.  I know of some band who are like that.    For some musicians, they call it discipline.  For me, it is saving their most precious tool....the ears.  1 dB is really discernible especially when you're still young.

By the way, treating your clients well is part also of being "professional".  In the field sound recording arena in P.I. I heard someone having a bad reputation though he has the nicest toys to do the job...Now that's another story....

Till then