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Author Topic: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?  (Read 8421 times)

Offline starfugger

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MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« on: August 22, 2007, 08:56:16 AM »
im wondering how long it takes for seasoned midi musicians to program a drum track for a song.  do you use the keyboard as a controller or drum pads, or the mouse?  which is the easiest drum vsti to program in your experience?  thanks!
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 09:17:18 AM »
i just use my keyboards. some people use drum pads, but i sound best using my midi keyboard. if i wanna use drumsticks, i'll hit a real drum. :-)

it's not the easiest to use, but it's the best for me. fxpansion's bfd.

it really depends on how detailed i want my drum tracks to be. sometimes a drum guide (which will be replaced by real drums) takes around 10 mins. sometimes a complicated drum tracks takes me an entire afternoon. heck sometimes it takes me a whole day just looking for the right snare sample. haha.

my drum programming adventure started on a yamaha rx11, then an rx5, then a roland r8, then a yamaha ry30, then my asr10, then added a kurzeil k2000, then roland's drum expansion board on the xv3080, then for a long while, it was on an emulator 4, then ported my samples on a gigastudio, then kontakt, then finally... now i just use bfd.

i might start sampling my kit and my snare collection soon, but until then, it's bfd (or the real thing) for me.

i also tried xln's addictive drums. it's pretty easy and fun to use. maybe you'd wanna try that...

(*) nothing beats the real thing miked up in a nice sounding room. yeah, i know... haha.

(*) you might wanna check out some music in my multiply site - http://marvinq.multiply.com/music/item/1

(*) most of the tracks took an average of 2 hours to program the drum track, some songs used real drums, but i also did guide tracks for the drummer.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 09:27:01 AM by marvinq »
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Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 09:27:16 AM »
(*) nothing beats the real thing miked up in a nice sounding room. yeah, i know... haha.

LOL  :lol:  we won't go there.


thanks for the feedback marvin.  im not looking to program dave weckle parts.  just your regular rock drums, probably minimal or no ghost notes. 

do you program it track per track (kick, snare, hats, etc)?  are there pre set grooves that i can start from and then customize later?  if you don't mind, please share your drum programming techniques so i have an idea of how it's REALLY done.  all i know is that you stick a vst instrument on the track and hit the keys painstakingly LOL.  but if there's a faster way to this this then all the better :)  also, do you quantize your midi drum tracks?

thanks :)
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 09:53:10 AM »
most of the time, they're fully quantized. i have three separate tracks -- one for kick, snare and toms, another just for hats, and another for cymbals. it's just easiest for me that way. sometimes you wanna use the same kick and snare pattern, and just vary the hihats, or cymbals, etc.. sometime i use a separate track for the ghost notes.

but when i make a guide track, i just use one track.

whichever route you take, i guess the most important thing for me is to hear the part in your head first before you program your stuff. to create convincing drum parts, your parts need to be convincing every step of the way.

i'll try to email you examples... (update: already sent you email...)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 10:15:20 AM by marvinq »
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Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 10:15:48 AM »
thanks marvin!
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Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 11:15:11 AM »
marvin thanks for the sample :)  nice drum sound, quite convincing actually.  this is basic bfd?

so after programming you press the quantize button?  is there any special technique on quantizing, like selecting different notes for different parts (for example, half notes for kicks, then 16th notes for hats. etc)?
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 11:21:58 AM »
With most drum software nowadays, you can just copy some preset grooves.  And then, tweak them to your liking.

But then again, we can't escape the reality that humans playing drums sound better than sampled drums. 

I think anyone would agree that the drawback of MIDI drums (whether using drum pads or keyboards) is the absence of  an organic sound to them.  It might be what you're looking for though (overproduced sounds I guess), but in musical situations like programming a song where classic Black Sabbath-y or Led Zeppelin drum sounds are needed, maybe you would better mic up a kit with the same sizes and heads.

Hazel, diba you have a D4?  Use it as a MIDI I/O with triggers so you can record drumfills...  Then do the quantizing or alterations to the performance later.

Offline KitC

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 11:56:14 AM »
You can make midi drums organic sounding, but it will take some work on top of the standard copy and paste routines.

In my case, I usually make a standard riff for the entire song, with separate tracks for the kick and snare, toms, hats, crashes, and other percussion. Often, I will use one drum channel, hence one drum kit, but in extreme cases, I will use as much as 4 separate kits (which means 4 separate drum channels) when a particular sound is not working. The reason for the separate tracks is to make it easier for me to add or even subtract notes since having all elements existing in one track can be confusing.

I sometimes make my 'standard riff' quite dense then I will copy and paste it along the entirety of the song. I then proceed to thin it out during the first half of the song since in most arrangements, the the first half of a song is usually sparse or not as lively as the second half - this creates a sort of tension in the arrangement. I may also program fills in this stage as the mood strikes. For the choruses, this is often a variation of the standard riff, sometimes not; I may copy this to the succeeding choruses and add variations later. While I am in creative mode, this is where I add breaks, additional percussion, whatever calls out to me.

When all notes have been been programmed, I then start with velocity variations  (do not use ANY velocity randomize function except if you can limit the highest and lowest values). This is often where I start adding ghost notes. Then I start leading or lagging certain sections to add more tension or lighten up on the feel. Whether I use drum pads, keys or draw in notes depends on what's easiest at the time.

The last part of any intensive drum programming that I do, I will put in 'mistakes'. In some cases, I will remove certain hits or make them just that much off. This is critical in making midi drums sound organic. And there you have it. How long does this take? Anything from half a day to 2 weeks depending on mood.
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 12:14:44 PM »
(*) nothing beats the real thing miked up in a nice sounding room. yeah, i know... haha.

LOL  :lol:  we won't go there.

spoke too soon, hazel... haha.

yes hazel, that's just basic bfd (actually i also have xfl, so some components might have actually come from that).

(*)actually, when i program my drum tracks, i use a POD. haha.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 12:20:35 PM by marvinq »
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Offline micr0chimp

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2007, 12:30:27 PM »
midi drums!  i'm getting into it too!

gusto ko ng project!  pahingi ng tracks.  yung tipong gaguhan lang ng parts for fun.  pero wag yung mahirap ha! i just want to find out if i can think of guitar parts that'll fit other peoples ideas.  :-D

Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 12:35:40 PM »
kinakain ng philmusic ang mga replies ko, nggrr! parang mga bencheengko nung dekada ochenta, haha.   :-D

anyway,  salamat kitc, very useful advice.  mukang ok nga yon, as it is easier to select and delete, LOL. :)

skunk, i sold the d4 because i found that midi drum triggering was no different than using close mic'd signals as midi triggers.  but thanks for the suggestion. i am actually thinking of using a makeshift pad to use as a trigger since i am a drummer and it is easiest to do it this way.

re organic sounds, you may be right about live drums, but technology has taken us far in the way that not only do we have libraries of one-hits recorded at over a hundred different velocities, but also room samples of the same hits.  this makes organic sounds more possible than ever. 

in any case, i am asking in behalf of my partner whose only option is midi drums, regardless of genre  :-)  she is a serious midi enthusiast hoping to make a career shift after med school. 

marvin, haha, i still refuse to go there... black hole yan!  :-D or did i just go there?  :-o :? :lol:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 12:40:42 PM by starfugger »
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Offline peeves24

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 12:40:20 PM »

just your regular rock drums, probably minimal or no ghost notes. 


toontrack's dfh ezdrummer does it for me  :-D

may predefined grooves (very very usable and it really grooves) na pwede mong drag and drop and then add/modify to your heart's content. i really love using it that i dont sit down on my drums anymore when new material comes up. i just try to mix and match the fills and grooves there then try to play it as best i could live hehehe ako = tamad

composing with ezdrummer usually takes me 15 to 30 minutes to finish a song

Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 12:41:59 PM »
peevs thank you so much for the tip! i apreciate it!
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2007, 12:49:45 PM »
But then again, we can't escape the reality that humans playing drums sound better than sampled drums. 

I think anyone would agree that the drawback of MIDI drums (whether using drum pads or keyboards) is the absence of  an organic sound to them.  It might be what you're looking for though (overproduced sounds I guess), but in musical situations like programming a song where classic Black Sabbath-y or Led Zeppelin drum sounds are needed, maybe you would better mic up a kit with the same sizes and heads.

https://www.platinumsamples.com/index.php

drum samples for bfd -- from the led zep engineer himself...

well, the drum software won't raid your refrigerator, block your car, show up late, or possibly make out with your girlfriend...
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2007, 01:05:04 PM »
http://www.sonicstate.com/articles/article.cfm?id=94#

bfd vs. v-drums vs. real kit.

i'm trying to spare shinji from another a/b. this is an a/b/c. haha.
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2007, 01:08:41 PM »
https://www.platinumsamples.com/index.php

drum samples for bfd -- from the led zep engineer himself...

well, the drum software won't raid your refrigerator, block your car, show up late, or possibly make out with your girlfriend...

BFD is a monster.  But what makes me pissed is that by the time I have expanded my sample library to its maximum potential, I'd be charging P1000 per hour hehehe.

But the thing about drum samples.... hmmm...  you can record the ambience, you can record as many hits per note, but you CANNOT simulate bleed/spill of each drum mike.  If you have 6 drums, 2 crashes and 1 ride (bell and bow), it is like having 10 identical rooms with the same kit miked up identically, with each hit occurring in each room.  Imagine a drum roll with that setup.

I do need BFD though.  Or Drumkit from Hell.  But for now I am sticking to my Alesis DM5 because I am out of budget.

Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2007, 01:29:22 PM »
bfd fires 11 samples per hit. including bleed. however, it cannot read minds nor does it have access to a time machine, so it can't simulate bleed from more drums or mixed up kits. i love having it around coz i am able to come up with pretty realistic drum tracks and still work within an almost-unreasonably-low budget.

so when do i use live drums? when i'm lazy (and when my pod is out-of-order -- joke).... haha

oh, by the way, my bfd and its expansion packs cost more less than 1/10th of my drum kits and snares (12 and counting) and cymbals (i could have bought me at least 8 more channels of premium mic preamps. haha).
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Offline GerardSalonga

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2007, 01:37:47 PM »
if you're a bad finger drummer like me...EZdrummer is great!!   Like Stylus RMX, the drag and drop MIDI thing is so much fun! :-)
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2007, 01:42:48 PM »
that's right. xln's addictive drums too. (bfd has that too.)
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Offline rakrakan

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2007, 02:54:41 PM »
Hazel, kayang kaya ang MIDI drums programming, tyagaan lang. Unahin mo yung basic grooves - leave muna yung fills for later para may matapos kang song - don't get into details muna - fine tune those tricky parts later. Maganda yung approach ni Kit, easy on the quantize para may looseness pa rin - hindi super rigid unless dance track ang ginagawa mo. Pwede rin i-manipulate velocity later para mas may dynamics.

check out the feature on EQMag comparing drum programs

I prefer to work with real drums and "real drummers" tamad kasi ako mag-program. Lalo na yung mga magaling pumalo tapos pasok pa sa click - hayyy, salamat po!

good luck with it.



Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2007, 03:21:24 PM »
thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to my query :)  very much appreciated yung input nyo, specially the drag n drop thing.  as far as im concerned, im with gerry when it comes to midi, id rather mic up a kit and press the record button, then have fun mixing  :-D  but like the pod, midi definitely has its place in the studio. :)

thank you thank you for the suggestions!!!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 03:39:40 PM by starfugger »
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Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2007, 03:27:33 PM »
hey. over so soon? (...and did you forget kitc?... haha)
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2007, 03:30:26 PM »
I hope Abyss can also give some input because according to him, most of the bands he worked with preferred miking up their own kits.  But sometimes we know that the kit might not do the job for a particular sound, hence the sampled drums...

Offline marvinq

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2007, 03:34:51 PM »
well, assuming that the drummer really has great feel, there's still drumagog, that can offer a solution for drums that were recorded live. i've used it a couple of times.
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Offline starfugger

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Re: MIDI Drum programming --- how long does it take?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2007, 03:38:52 PM »
haha edited. was just texting kitc kanina ;)  marvs baka umabot pa ng 25 pages pag sinabi kong i can survive without the bleed  :-D  anyway, i have to admit i like overproduced sounds but i have no doubt that "organic" sounds can also be achieved via midi, it just takes a bit of skill and patience, and of course, the right library.  :-)  organic is another buzz word, the meaning of which im really not very sure of.  to me it is something akin to that oh so wonderful drum sound from the song high and dry by radiohead.

we're just starting to get familiar with midi drums as of the moment and not splitting hairs yet, so thanks for all your help and suggestions.
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