The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)

[skunkyfunk]

we could go on and on about the fletcher munson curve and how much it fools people into thinking an amp and an amp sim sounds alike ... but in that particular situation the amp sim kikcked the amp's butt.  t

Hazel I was listening to the tracks again and again, and the PODXT track did not respond to the guitar well.  I was rolling off the volume to see how the sound cleaned up.  The PODXT sounded flat while the Randall cleaned up just like how  a tube amp does.  And yes you're right, the miked up tracks need a little EQing because of proximity issues, and we do that either in the mixing or tracking stage where the engineer cuts a little lows so the mids become more defined.

Now here are my observations on that A/B test, which I deem as flawed. 

1.  The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same timbre produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
2.  The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same preamp compression produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
3.  There was no backing track to see how well the track sits on the mix.
4.  We cannot make a good judgment on either amp or ampsim primarily because the guitar used was rather... muddy?  I wonder but that guitar didn't have much sparkle, or rather "bingi" yung highs.
5.  From a producer's standpoint, we cannot say one is better over the other unless we had a particular tone in mind for the project.  And rightly so, this is not to say the POD kicked the Randall's butt or otherwise. 

But then again, this is the confusion that I have always been talking about.  Just because one cannot capture the tone of an amp in a studio and thus get more decent results with a POD, a lot of people claim the POD kicks <put amp model and brand here>'s ass.  You see? 

It is just like saying "BFD kicks a Yamaha Maple Custom's ass" when the engineer cannot capture the tone of the Yamaha the way a BFD drum kit sounds.  Maybe, the better way to say that is "BFD is a better option when there is limited time in the studio, and there are lesser chances of failure if BFD and an electronic kit can deliver the goods instantly, whereas miking a drum kit like a Yamaha Maple Custom where the room ambience, mics, head choices, and tuning necessitates more setup time, thus being more prone to failure."

It's all engineer vs. artist perspective.  The way I see it, a lot of artists are missing out on the fun of tone-chasing if we take these shortcuts.  And that is their major clamor.  They do not feel as "involved" in the recording when there are shortcuts.  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying SHORTCUTS ARE WRONG.  What I am saying is, IT IS WRONG TO TAKE SHORTCUTS IF THE ARTIST WANTS TO TAKE THE SCENIC ROUTE.

[skunkyfunk]

dapat naman talaga ganon e.  bakit mo dinala yang pagkabigat bigat mong amp sa studio kung hindi mo naisip tong mga bagay na to beforehand?  you brought that amp to a/b right? 

Hazel, the main problem in the A/B test was we were fooled by initial reactions.  We did not have the right amount of time to get the settings right. And I would say that the test is not valid unless we get both amp and POD to sound alike.

sana niresearch mo na din kung anong gagamitin mong preset sa POD since you were so keen on proving your point. 

Shinji showed me the manual for the PODXT.  For the test I was choosing among these models :  50 Watt Plexi , Plexi 100, Plexi VARIAC (some EVH tone here), and the JCM800.  For some reason all the tones except the JCM800 had weak tone.  They were not responding to the differences in strumming, loud or soft, single notes, blah blah blah.  We felt that we needed something more compressed as the miked amp had a nice combination of compression and openness.  It is the phenomenon where you can hear the notes blooming when you have the guitar's volume in full, and cleans up when rolled down.  You see Carlos Santana doing this often.  Anyway, the need to use a higher-gain MArshall amp sim sounded "better" at first glance, but after hearing those tracks again, I thought I could have just used the other models and not the JCM800.

Yes I do my research, but sometimes ears can fool you. 

[legato]

Hmmm, interesting. Dami ko natutunan dito a.

[starfugger]

Hazel I was listening to the tracks again and again, and the PODXT track did not respond to the guitar well.  I was rolling off the volume to see how the sound cleaned up.  The PODXT sounded flat while the Randall cleaned up just like how  a tube amp does.  And yes you're right, the miked up tracks need a little EQing because of proximity issues, and we do that either in the mixing or tracking stage where the engineer cuts a little lows so the mids become more defined.

Now here are my observations on that A/B test, which I deem as flawed. 

1.  The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same timbre produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
2.  The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same preamp compression produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
3.  There was no backing track to see how well the track sits on the mix.
4.  We cannot make a good judgment on either amp or ampsim primarily because the guitar used was rather... muddy?  I wonder but that guitar didn't have much sparkle, or rather "bingi" yung highs.
5.  From a producer's standpoint, we cannot say one is better over the other unless we had a particular tone in mind for the project.  And rightly so, this is not to say the POD kicked the Randall's butt or otherwise. 

But then again, this is the confusion that I have always been talking about.  Just because one cannot capture the tone of an amp in a studio and thus get more decent results with a POD, a lot of people claim the POD kicks <put amp model and brand here>'s ass.  You see? 

It is just like saying "BFD kicks a Yamaha Maple Custom's ass" when the engineer cannot capture the tone of the Yamaha the way a BFD drum kit sounds.  Maybe, the better way to say that is "BFD is a better option when there is limited time in the studio, and there are lesser chances of failure if BFD and an electronic kit can deliver the goods instantly, whereas miking a drum kit like a Yamaha Maple Custom where the room ambience, mics, head choices, and tuning necessitates more setup time, thus being more prone to failure."

It's all engineer vs. artist perspective.  The way I see it, a lot of artists are missing out on the fun of tone-chasing if we take these shortcuts.  And that is their major clamor.  They do not feel as "involved" in the recording when there are shortcuts.  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying SHORTCUTS ARE WRONG.  What I am saying is, IT IS WRONG TO TAKE SHORTCUTS IF THE ARTIST WANTS TO TAKE THE SCENIC ROUTE.

yun nga sabi ko diba, it has to be in the context of a song.  ikaw na din nagsabi sa orig post mo dito, add some reverb to a pod track and the difference goes out the window ... or something to that effect.  tone chasing? e kung maganda na nga yung tone na galing sa POD, ibig sabihin nahuli na... bat kailangan pang habulin?  ang issue dito, we use whatever works.  kung ako ang tatanongin i have not been so lucky as some with amp sims (and i am envious of those who have made amp sims work for them).  i still use amps to get the guitar distortion i like.  this is what works for me at the moment.  

the fletcher munson effect is really not that much of a big deal when it comes to a/b'ing amps and amp sims.  malaki ang epekto ng fletcher munson sa gigging musicians. pero kung satin at atin lang, kayang kaya nating ibaba ang volume knob.  siguro kung may issue man dito, yung kung pano natin ima-mic yung amp para faithful yung tunog nito sa tracking room dun sa nacacapture natin on tape.  sa tingin ko don malaki epekto ng fletcher munson because of the way we are exposed to extremely loud guitars in the tracking room.  

[KitC]

Wait wait,I have garageband in my iBook together w/ that digitizer input thingy.Can I use that in conjuction w/ FL7 XXL?Can I squeeze out any potential w/ that software?.KitC?Anyone?I really haven't explored it.

I don't have a Mac, hence, no Garageband. But from what I've been reading so far, it's based on the Logic engine. I don't know if you can rewire FL into GB, AFAIK everything I've read so far indicates GB is a closed system. One thing you can do is add loops of which there are a lot marketed for GB right now. The EP I mentioned earlier used loops successfully.

[skunkyfunk]

yun nga sabi ko diba, it has to be in the context of a song.  ikaw na din nagsabi sa orig post mo dito, add some reverb to a pod track and the difference goes out the window ... or something to that effect.  tone chasing? e kung maganda na nga yung tone na galing sa POD, ibig sabihin nahuli na...

In that particular A/B test, ang hinahabol ay ang tunog na lumalabas sa JBL far fields ni Shinji from the SM57 miking up the Randall's cab covered with a blanket.  And naghahabol ay yung POD.  Unfortunately, HINDI nahabol ng POD yung tunog ng amp.  Kasi ang goal nga natin ay A/B diba?  Sa totoo lang, gusto ko yung tunog ng JCM800 patch but for thatparticular test I was setting aside the preference for mid-gain sounds.  I was more after measuring how much the PODXT would sound whenever there are very varied playing nuances.  So since hindi nahabol yung tunog, invalid yung A/B test.

But then again, in the context of PRODUCTION, we cannot say one is better over the other because wala namang kanta in application.  If a blues rock player used the Randall  Plexi module the way you heard it in the studio, he would propbably prefer that to the JCM800 sim.  But if some hard rocker had a choice he would most likely go for the JCM800 sim over the Randall Plexi module.

the fletcher munson effect is really not that much of a big deal when it comes to a/b'ing amps and amp sims.  malaki ang epekto ng fletcher munson sa gigging musicians. pero kung satin at atin lang, kayang kaya nating ibaba ang volume knob.  siguro kung may issue man dito, yung kung pano natin ima-mic yung amp para faithful yung tunog nito sa tracking room dun sa nacacapture natin on tape.  sa tingin ko don malaki epekto ng fletcher munson because of the way we are exposed to extremely loud guitars in the tracking room. 

Well that's it!  You know how the FM phenomenon affects a performance.  That is why some people prefer tracking vocals with an SM58 while there are wedge monitors (not headphones) blasting through him.  That is because some want a more "live" effect.  That is motivation.  Now, what if some engineer would say "mahirap yan kasi may bleed tapos mas maganda ang U87, kaya dapat sa iso room ka magtrack."  Don't you think that would have an effect on the performance?  As sound engineers, we should try to extend our efforts to the most unappealing scenarios that in most cases, give us a huge pain in the butt to mix.  We hate bleed, but what if that bleed will make the performance much better?  Diba?  So the whole point of this topic on FM for guitarplayers is that if a guitarplayer is really inspired with playing through an amp, then for Chrissakes (with Kit Coronel accent) mike it, capture it, and make him perform badass. Because if we point him to a POD which, in turn, would be much easier to set up, might make him less-inspired. 

[starfugger]

1.  The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same timbre produced by the Randall Plexi Module.

definitely.

2.  The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same preamp compression produced by the Randall Plexi Module.

well a tube amp DOES compress a signal in glorious ways that, in my experience,. i have not seen done by a an amp sim ... solution: slap a compressor across the channel.  that would work.

3.  There was no backing track to see how well the track sits on the mix.

yeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.

4.  We cannot make a good judgment on either amp or ampsim primarily because the guitar used was rather... muddy?  I wonder but that guitar didn't have much sparkle, or rather "bingi" yung highs.

but the guitar worked on the pod    plus ive heard it work quite nicely on the POD  on another recording session in shinji's studio.  

5.  From a producer's standpoint, we cannot say one is better over the other unless we had a particular tone in mind for the project.  And rightly so, this is not to say the POD kicked the Randall's butt or otherwise. 

well you were the producer weren't you?  you brought the amp to a/b.  it was your idea.  what tone did you have in mind?  oh yeah, tube amp tones which the POD can never ever produce or else the solar system gets disaligned and the sky falls and the four hoursemen come marching down to commence armageddon ....

the only big divide i see here is wedged between your biases for and against amps and amp sims.  

[starfugger]

Well that's it!  You know how the FM phenomenon affects a performance.  That is why some people prefer tracking vocals with an SM58 while there are wedge monitors (not headphones) blasting through him.  That is because some want a more "live" effect.  That is motivation.  Now, what if some engineer would say "mahirap yan kasi may bleed tapos mas maganda ang U87, kaya dapat sa iso room ka magtrack."  Don't you think that would have an effect on the performance?  As sound engineers, we should try to extend our efforts to the most unappealing scenarios that in most cases, give us a huge pain in the butt to mix.  We hate bleed, but what if that bleed will make the performance much better?  Diba?  So the whole point of this topic on FM for guitarplayers is that if a guitarplayer is really inspired with playing through an amp, then for Chrissakes (with Kit Coronel accent) mike it, capture it, and make him perform badass

i agree.

but pointing him to a pod might produce less inspired performances?  pwede, pwede ding hindi.  whatever works.  one could actually use an amp sim alongside an amp.  pwede din naman ipang-monitor ang amp kung talagang nakaka-inspire. for Chrissakes (in my very own spiteful, sarcastic tone), use a Reamp if you must ... although this entails added equipment yet again. 

[skunkyfunk]

well you were the producer weren't you?  you brought the amp to a/b.  it was your idea.  what tone did you have in mind?  oh yeah, tube amp tones which the POD can never ever produce or else the solar system gets disaligned and the sky falls and the four hoursemen come marching down to commence armageddon ....

I wasn't the producer in that scenario, Hazel.  I was more of a "scientist" trying to rule out as many variables that can affect the A/B test.  Unfortunately, I was a bad scientist.  (No, I never was a scientist.)   

In fact, some say when Line 6 does their amp sims, they do real tests in an anechoic chamber.  And then they have different convolution reverb models in their FX designs.

the only big divide i see here is between your biases for and against amps/amp sims. 

And to settle that, we need a valid A/B test.  But for the record, production values have nothing to do with A/B tests of amp sims or amps.  It's all about inspiration.

[skunkyfunk]

i agree.

but pointing him to a pod might produce less inspired performances?  pwede, pwede ding hindi.  whatever works.  one could actually use an amp sim alongside an amp.  pwede din naman ipang-monitor ang amp kung talagang nakaka-inspire. for Chrissakes (in my very own spiteful, sarcastic tone), use a Reamp if you must ... although this entails added equipment yet again. 

Well, from what I've heard, since the dawn of powerful processing and 128 virtual-tracks or more platforms, engineers always break down signals to these:

1.  A dry DI guitar track
2.  an amp sim from a modeller
3.  mikes in the room, etc.

#1 is the "safety track" should you reamp in the future.  #2 is the instant tone you might or might not use in the mix.  #3 is what needs to be mixed well to simulate realistic amp sounds.  (Some of which you might not even use in the mix).

I'll give you an example.  There is this engineer in the US I talked to and he said he had this bassplayer client who had too much love for his bass rig.  So he uses a large 18" woofer, a 4x10 cab, and some tweeter in the cab.  The bassplayer was so anal that he wanted all the speakers miked, including the tweeter.  And the engineer did so... except that he also tapped a DI from the bass amp.  So, with a feeling of security, Mr. Bassplayer played to his heart's content during tracking.

So when it was mixing time, haha, the engineer used the DI track, no more, no less.  Maybe in that mix, it worked, and probably the bassplayer got duped.  But that doesn't mean he was less-inspired.

[alroyT]

I don't have a Mac, hence, no Garageband. But from what I've been reading so far, it's based on the Logic engine. I don't know if you can rewire FL into GB, AFAIK everything I've read so far indicates GB is a closed system. One thing you can do is add loops of which there are a lot marketed for GB right now. The EP I mentioned earlier used loops successfully.

Thanks KitC,i'll just tinker around w/ it.

[alroyT]

Damn we're still at it?Mabuti may ka relyebo ako,skunk use pipino for those eyebag 

[skunkyfunk]

Damn we're still at it?Mabuti may ka relyebo ako,skunk use pipino for those eyebag 

it's 1pm here.  i use sleep as my solution to eyebags. 

[alroyT]

it's 1pm here.  i use sleep as my solution to eyebags. 

hehe so inamin mo may eyebags ka ha,sorry for the interruption,pls continue.

[skunkyfunk]

hehe so inamin mo may eyebags ka ha,sorry for the interruption,pls continue.

Wala po.  Pag meron lang. 

[x_taxi]

I don't have a Mac, hence, no Garageband. But from what I've been reading so far, it's based on the Logic engine. I don't know if you can rewire FL into GB, AFAIK everything I've read so far indicates GB is a closed system. One thing you can do is add loops of which there are a lot marketed for GB right now. The EP I mentioned earlier used loops successfully.

boss kit, fl studio's pc only.  although they've been tryin to do versions of the synth plugins in macintel os.

yup, ang dami ngang loops for garageband nowadays.  you can actually hear it in some songs apparently.

 

[alroyT]

Yeah just did a lil poking w/ garageband,the effects are nice.Pretty cool if ur always on the go.

[KitC]

boss kit, fl studio's pc only.  although they've been tryin to do versions of the synth plugins in macintel os.

 

OMG! Sound the alarms! My mind's beginning to slip...

(sorry... this thread's beginning to have an adverse effect on me...

now, what was that we were talking about again? oh yeah...

Jeeves! my brandy please... and don't forget the chocolates!

What was that? we were talking about macs? goodness gracious!

...is it daylight yet?)

[x_taxi]

OMG! Sound the alarms! My mind's beginning to slip...

(sorry... this thread's beginning to have an adverse effect on me...

now, what was that we were talking about again? oh yeah...

Jeeves! my brandy please... and don't forget the chocolates!

What was that? we were talking about macs? goodness gracious!

...is it daylight yet?)

haha.  pass on the vino and some cheeze!  but i'll be fine with my bourbon.

this has been a very, very colorful thread, full of twists and turns.  please do continue mga sir(s).

OT:  it's kinda bizarre how jobs have better programmers than gates.  mac os x on the intel's rock solid.  can't say the same for vista.  yet we soldier on with our pc's. minsan enjoy lang maging pc technician eh.

 

[KitC]

So the whole point of this topic on FM for guitarplayers is that if a guitarplayer is really inspired with playing through an amp, then for Chrissakes (with Kit Coronel accent) mike it, capture it, and make him perform badass. Because if we point him to a POD which, in turn, would be much easier to set up, might make him less-inspired. 

Hmmmm.... remind me to practice my mexican accent more... then I'll try applying in a call center, no?

There are calls for a 'talent' plugin which might very well be the solution to all our problems (including me!). Surprisingly enough, the plugin REALLY does exist... but only for midi (and it's not what you think).

Have a good one, all!   and more vino, Vince!!!    aaahhhh, 1969... a good year....

[alroyT]

err last time i was reading something about trolls and and fm curve and now its wine tasting?U guys make me spend less time @ guitar central and more time here.

[KitC]

Think of this forum as a means of broadening your horizons.

[deltaslim]

I used my ears right from the start bro.  The soundclips from the official site way back was what held me back from liking the POD.  A lot of users post their POD recordings.  Not impressed. 

Dodjie - Can you kindly listen to the POD clips of this guy and post your impressions?  If necessary, perhaps you can point out which clips seem to be relatively good, which ones are just ok, which ones suck?

http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm

I'd be interested to hear also what the others think of this guy's POD tones.

I have my opinion (matagal na) but will reserve it for now.

[skunkyfunk]

Dodjie - Can you kindly listen to the POD clips of this guy and post your impressions?  If necessary, perhaps you can point out which clips seem to be relatively good, which ones are just ok, which ones suck?

http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm

I'd be interested to hear also what the others think of this guy's POD tones.

I have my opinion (matagal na) but will reserve it for now.

The timbre is ok for the most part, but they feel a tad too flat or 1-D for a lack of a better term.  Parang masyadong plateau yung dinig ko sa dynamics.  The blues patches sounded too processed for me being that blues is all about dynamics.  The cleans were alright, but we can never tell how these patches perform unless we used pedals and see how they respond.  Obviously we cannot crank a POD but we can only simulate a cranked amp.

Something common among all the clips is the reverb seems to mask the flatness.  I A/Bd them with amp tracks and I really cannot hear the dynamics with the POD.  I cranked my monitors to see what I am missing and the POD still seemed too 1-dimensional.

Also, the presence is not there when I boost the volume.  What I noticed with real miked-amp tracks is that they can sound a bit muddy at first, but when you mix with a band the mud goes away and the mids stay well in the mix UNEQ'd.  Add a tad more highs then you're fine.  As for the POD tracks, there seems to be  a cutoff somewhere in the presence frequencies. 

[deltaslim]

The timbre is ok for the most part, but they feel a tad too flat or 1-D for a lack of a better term.  Parang masyadong plateau yung dinig ko sa dynamics.  The blues patches sounded too processed for me being that blues is all about dynamics.  The cleans were alright, but we can never tell how these patches perform unless we used pedals and see how they respond.  Obviously we cannot crank a POD but we can only simulate a cranked amp.

Something common among all the clips is the reverb seems to mask the flatness.  I A/Bd them with amp tracks and I really cannot hear the dynamics with the POD.  I cranked my monitors to see what I am missing and the POD still seemed too 1-dimensional.

Also, the presence is not there when I boost the volume.  What I noticed with real miked-amp tracks is that they can sound a bit muddy at first, but when you mix with a band the mud goes away and the mids stay well in the mix UNEQ'd.  Add a tad more highs then you're fine.  As for the POD tracks, there seems to be  a cutoff somewhere in the presence frequencies. 

Ok. Thanks for sharing your opinion.