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Author Topic: "filling the gaps" in the mix.  (Read 1952 times)

Offline paengkee

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"filling the gaps" in the mix.
« on: March 22, 2008, 02:50:36 PM »
im a n00b at mixing and recording. and so far ive mixed this track by ear. home recording lang po to and cut me some slack because im just 19. and we play hardcore.

http://soundclick.com/caitlynbailey

question is how do i fill in the gaps in the mix to have a full enveloping sound? right now i could picture out this mix as a fishnet stocking than a sock. ive tried adding a little reverb to dissipate some of the highs into white noise without making it annoying. yet it still sounds boxed up.

for comparison i also uploaded a track from the band Converge called "no heroes". if you could observe, napakalaki ng sonic footprint ng recording na yun. while that kind of quality isnt really that attainable with what i have, i was just wondering how i could get the same "huge" sound opposite to the "boxed up" sound i have.

im using cakewalk sonar 4.




Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 08:29:36 PM »
Very good for a home recording IMO. 

Compression for the drums is your friend.

Reverb is a good idea, but too much of it takes out punch especially with the drums.

Guitars need more upper mid sizzle. 




Offline KitC

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 08:48:56 PM »
Reverb has a tendency to make things appear more in the background so use less or no reverb on the elements you want up front. Learn to use reverbs in aux busses, and not as an insert effect, so that you can control how much of the signal you send to the reverb fx.
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Offline paengkee

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 09:35:06 PM »
skunky: i made another mix this time i added a little upper mid presence to the guitars.

i tried using compression on the drums early on the mixing but i felt it took away some of the dynamics that our music is known for (our other tracks have clean parts. this is the easiest to upload)

for reverb i experimented with "Reverb staging". i dunno if this is something new but i took the idea from gain staging. instead of putting a lot of reverb on the bus, i put small amounts of reverb on each track (including some parts of the drumkit like the snare). sounds good to my ear though.


kitC: i did coincidentally put my effects separate from the tracks so i could mute them altogether. the snare was initially too overpowering and up front in the track. i wanted the bass to be felt but at the same time be up front without any reverb.


i uploaded an updated one.

Offline bassman88

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 11:28:17 AM »
@paengkee
How many guitar tracks did you use in the mix? Maybe it would help if you added a duplicate track of the guitar and use it as a bass booster since walang bass sa track. Adjust the level nalang para hindi masyado maging muddy. hehe, suggestion lang. Ang galing! I'm also 19, paturo naman ng drum mixing, how many mics did you use for the drums?. haha


Offline KitC

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 11:37:27 AM »
@paengkee
How many guitar tracks did you use in the mix? Maybe it would help if you added a duplicate track of the guitar and use it as a bass booster since walang bass sa track. Adjust the level nalang para hindi masyado maging muddy. hehe, suggestion lang. Ang galing! I'm also 19, paturo naman ng drum mixing, how many mics did you use for the drums?. haha

Hmmm... I was thinking that the bass was beginning to sound muddy since the guitar's bass frequencies were intruding too much into the bass spectrum as well as being included in the reverb. High pass filters are the key...

Another thing to work on the mix is panning since everything is centered.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 10:44:15 PM by KitC »
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Offline bassman88

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 05:18:46 PM »
Hmmm... I was thinking that the bass was beginning to sound muddy since the guitar's bass frequencies were intruding too much into the bass spectrum as well as being included in the reverb as well. High pass filters are the key...

Another thing to work on the mix is panning since everything is centered.

Sir Kit! i am not worth! hahaha :( sorry, i didnt mean to give wrong advice, my ears aren't trained well enough pa pala. haha!

Offline KitC

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 10:48:15 PM »
Sir Kit! i am not worth! hahaha :( sorry, i didnt mean to give wrong advice, my ears aren't trained well enough pa pala. haha!

I wouldn't say it's wrong advice. You meant well and the bass could stand a little tweaking, but one of the first things we should try to achieve in a mix is to give the important elements their own 'sonic space', whether by eq, panning, compression... whatever. Once you achieve clarity in a mix, other things become much easier.
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Offline paengkee

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 09:38:29 PM »
Hmmm... I was thinking that the bass was beginning to sound muddy since the guitar's bass frequencies were intruding too much into the bass spectrum as well as being included in the reverb. High pass filters are the key...

Another thing to work on the mix is panning since everything is centered.

hmm.

1. the bass tends to appear and disappear from the mix. i need to fix this. maybe its because of the stock bass tone. it was just boomy, not punchy. pbass kasi. the pbass sounds a bit hollow and clangy as opposed to a jazzbass thats round and punchy. ill ask our bassist to use a jazz bass sa next recordings.

2. the guitars actually have 0 lows but i added a lot of upper mid presence and backed off the highs because it was starting to hiss.the guitar eq looks like this:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

              _ _
           _       _
        _
     _
  _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _



and the bass:


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

     _ _         
  _       _       
_            _       
                 _
                    _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


3. i panned the guitar 80% left and added a stereo delay a few milliseconds output to the right.

4. i was trying to emulate the mixing of the other track i uploaded (no heroes by converge)

Offline paengkee

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 09:54:15 PM »
@paengkee
How many guitar tracks did you use in the mix? Maybe it would help if you added a duplicate track of the guitar and use it as a bass booster since walang bass sa track. Adjust the level nalang para hindi masyado maging muddy. hehe, suggestion lang. Ang galing! I'm also 19, paturo naman ng drum mixing, how many mics did you use for the drums?. haha

i used 2 overheads, 1 rack tom, 1 floor tom, 1 snare, 1 kick and 1 hat

well i dont really know how to explain how i got the sound or anything but heres some of the things i did:

put a noise gate sa snare to make it "pop" talaga. i set the attack at around 15-40ms and decay at around 100-250. sa kick and hats rin but i forgot ano timpla ko.

i set the overheads panned 100% left and 100% right respectively. i make sure in the band mix that theyre barely audible. any important cymbal hits like ride stuff (ting ting ting i dunno whats that called), i create a separate track. for everything else sa drums, its pretty much 1 track per part

sa guitars i tried to emulate my fave' band converge's mixing and at the same time a band called "envy" from japan. napaka powerful ng mixes nila.

my problem now is that i want the bass to be heard (not just felt) without sacrificing the current guitar tone. if i lessen any frequency sa guitar, the tone will be sacrificed.

i figured the bass tone should be changed. not by eq, but by rerecording the bass mismo. some basses have characteristics rin kasi. pbass ginamit namin which isnt really that good in terms of standing out sa mix. a jazz bass or a stingray would really stand out. sa pbass kasi if i eq the lows too much, it just rumbles a lot.

in terms of clarity, this ones the clearest version so far and everything just falls into place. previous mixes were damn muddy and not everything can be heard.

Offline abyssinianson

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 09:57:45 PM »
have you tried doubling your guitars when you track? i am suprised that you find the pbass hollow. i actually like using a pbass for rock stuff (with an active pre) because it sounds pretty ballsy with new roundwound strings. you could try a stingray or a 5 string to get that really big rumble.
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Offline paengkee

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 10:05:55 PM »
^^
yeah i found it to "clangy" baka sa timpla rin ng bassist namin.

guys dito nyo na lang pakinggan. the sound quality ng soundclick sucks.

http://www.myspace.com/caitlynbailey

btw woo 1000th post.

Offline bloodshedd

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 12:36:26 AM »
This is some nice stuff... (Being a lover of most things heavy)

put a noise gate sa snare to make it "pop" talaga. i set the attack at around 15-40ms and decay at around 100-250. sa kick and hats rin but i forgot ano timpla ko.

i set the overheads panned 100% left and 100% right respectively. i make sure in the band mix that theyre barely audible. any important cymbal hits like ride stuff (ting ting ting i dunno whats that called), i create a separate track. for everything else sa drums, its pretty much 1 track per part

Record the drums w/o gating coz you can gate them later (to prevent false triggering of the gate)... I also suggest that you only gate the snare and the kick (I can hear the hi-hats "breathing" because of the gate)... and probably a little bit more crack on the snares.
    For some metal-sounding kick drum sounds... maybe you could duplicate your kick drum track then apply lowpass eq on one track (some thing like 60hz or lower) then highpass on another (depends on your taste..listen for a desirable "click sound" frequency then boost it a little)
           You can mix these two to get a desirable amount of low end which is the body and "click" which adds intelligibility of the kick drum without sacrificing your mix to be boomy.
           You could also probably apply highpass eq on the overheads and the snare (depends on your taste) to improve separation between the drums... Added bonus is that since me frequency separation na yung mga drum elements mo eh mas klaro na sila... kaunting panning pa eh sa toms eh mas mgiging animated yung drums nyo...

sa guitars i tried to emulate my fave' band converge's mixing and at the same time a band called "envy" from japan. napaka powerful ng mixes nila.

my problem now is that i want the bass to be heard (not just felt) without sacrificing the current guitar tone. if i lessen any frequency sa guitar, the tone will be sacrificed.

i figured the bass tone should be changed. not by eq, but by rerecording the bass mismo. some basses have characteristics rin kasi. pbass ginamit namin which isnt really that good in terms of standing out sa mix. a jazz bass or a stingray would really stand out. sa pbass kasi if i eq the lows too much, it just rumbles a lot.

Yung bassist ng Converge eh nka Stingray but i think that its not necessary to change instruments... kung lalagyan nyo ung bass ninyo ng preamp or kahit kaunting overdrive eh mas lilitaw yung bass... experiment with the mids of the bass tone...

With the guitars eh medyo ok na pero siguro mas maganda if you re-record another track then pan the 2 guitar tracks hard left and right. Also watch out if there are clashing frequencies between the bass and the guitars.

Rak!!!
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Offline abyssinianson

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 01:28:10 AM »
^^
yeah i found it to "clangy" baka sa timpla rin ng bassist namin.

guys dito nyo na lang pakinggan. the sound quality ng soundclick sucks.

http://www.myspace.com/caitlynbailey

btw woo 1000th post.

clangy? i am looking at your bassist on the myspace page and noticed that he is playing a warwick. those have an active pre so maybe you could EQ it a bit differently. i am familiar with Warwick's and they have a particular sound that is good for some and requires some tweaking to get it sitting right in the mix.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

LouieAzcona

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 03:03:22 AM »
dati nagrecord kami ng ganito rin. FAKE ung pagrecord ng growl. meaning hindi talaga siya sumisigaw, ano ba tawag dun? parang pabulong na growl. tapos double track. ayos naman ang kinalabasan. natuwa naman sila. haha. may nakasubok na ba non? kasi ang hirap magrecord ng growl eh. parang naaawa ako sa vocalist. natatakot ako para sa throat niya eh.

Offline paengkee

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 05:26:56 PM »
clangy? i am looking at your bassist on the myspace page and noticed that he is playing a warwick. those have an active pre so maybe you could EQ it a bit differently. i am familiar with Warwick's and they have a particular sound that is good for some and requires some tweaking to get it sitting right in the mix.

he is no longer our bassist as of this recording.

Offline paengkee

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2008, 05:30:34 PM »
guys i figured out how to make the bass stand out. separated the the bass track into two tracks. one equed for low end rumble and the other for mid presence. i can hear the bass now actually but i havent exported it and mixed it down. thanks a lot for the input guys!

Offline KitC

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 10:16:59 PM »
Bravo! There's always more than one way to skin a cat. (Hint: you could have used a multiband compressor... ) However, in your case, if it works, it works!

Good show, paengkee!
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 09:45:43 AM »
Bass guitar recording - it all starts with having a GOOD-SOUNDING BASS.  If the notes are boomy, when plugged direct, it would sound flabby down the line even with the best preamp, amp or worse, with a miked up cab.

From experience, some bands can benefit from boomy bass sounds, especially with Stoner and Classic Rock.  If you want that old Sabbath or Cream bass sound then by all means, mike up an old tube bass amp.  Use an LDC.

Now if you want a more modern approach, get a bass that sounds clear and punchy.  Less problems when mixing.

Cheers!

Online markv

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 10:07:44 AM »
ung recording ng 'countdown to extinction' ng megadeth ok sana..open sounding kaso dinig na dinig ung pagsayad ng bass guitar strings sa frets & pickups pag pnpluck nung bassist :(

LouieAzcona

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Re: "filling the gaps" in the mix.
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 03:08:17 PM »
Larc en ciel, narinig niyo na? bakit ganon ung bass doon? ang ganda! haha. actually, mga japanese na band, magkakatunog mga bass. sobrang clear pero nakaposte parin.