I officially declare Zoom as the king of cheese

[Perf_De_Castro]

I'm pointing out that Zoom is not as worthless as it is being made out by the thread topic.

Tone is not in the fingers, nga eh, and I don't have magic hands.... so anybody should be able to pull out good sounds out of whatever gear I use.

And I seriously take offense in your using the phrase "f*cking cop-out". I have great respect for you but I want you to know that it just sucks for a fan like me to be spoken to like that.

If you wanna jump in mature discussions, be prepared to take as much as you dish it out.

Don't play the "I'm too young and inexperienced" card and be all offended when you are treated like an adult .

[itchybrain]

worms in can. can opener. go for it.

No offense meant. Are there any worms? What's your point?

[Lahed92801]

John 5 uses zoom and his tone on 27 needles (track from his album) is killin.

[pings15]

Tone is not in the fingers, nga eh, and I don't have magic hands.... so anybody should be able to pull out good sounds out of whatever gear I use.

correct correct.. im in the same situation kasi eh.. hahaha.. i dont have good hands when it comes to playnig so i just make use of some effects para medyo ok naman ang magiging kalabasan ng tunog ko hehehe...


just played a very very very small gig lang sa isang event sa school namin..
i just used my zoom G1X...

the whole night of tweaking was worth it... i came close to my original sound.... and i liked it now i've been thinking of not selling this little beast...

[historymaker]

So its not without credence to say that Zooms may sound sucky in recordings. It might do well in electronica songs where the distorted sound sounds  like a Yamaha DX7 . If you're a purist, forget Zooms altogether.

Zoom may not work for you (just like Behringer) but it doesn't mean that they're worthless. 

the quotes above are valid points i'd like to add on. having been in different recording scenarios,i believe everything is possible in a recording. and anything can be useful if done correctly (heck, even incorrectly if that really suits your style ).

to sir skunky, i can see where you're coming from. given the route you wish to take. yet the validity of the opposing points cannot be denied either. i think those defending zoom only did so probably because they felt the thread title was insulting to their capacity to judge what sounds good and what doesn't. as i said earlier, everything is possible in a recording. anything can be useful. even those we think as "trash". makes me wonder if you're familiar with the story of how the red hot chili peppers recorded "breaking the girl". specifically the "percussions" used in one part of the song. had they done that in your studio, would you have thrown out rick rubin, chad smith and company?

just wondering

edit: pardon my use of the RHCP analogy but since the topic is about zoom=sucky equipment and recording, might as well 

[chromeknive]

You know what sir Perf and stringman, I'm just going to keep reading. Clearly, to begin with, hindi nagtugma ang terms natin kaya hindi nagtutugma ang arguements natin. And that, sir BAMF, is where the "away" began. (I don't see it as a fight, just as a discussion)

Again I'd just like to state, sure, you can get "good" sounds from it. Whatever, great sounds even. But what if there are artifacts that I don't like? Edi hindi ko gagamitin. The end. I can't dial out or tweak out the artifacts I don't like e. Maybe I'm not experienced enough to know how to dial out the degradation I hear. How can you argue with me on my preference?

Sir stringman, if you still don't get the whole DS-1 thing, nevermind. It was just to illustrate a scenario and not me bringing in irrelevant points into the discussion. Also, what if Skunk wanted to use the noise gate and that's why he tried to use the Zoom? Also, how can that have anything to do with my arguement on preference?

Sir Perf, if you read back, you will find that I use a Zoom G2 for gigs and rehearsal. I never said Zoom products were worthless. I also don't recall the threadstarter saying Zoom products were worthless. Wether or not you interpreted the thread title as "Zoom is worthless", that's on you.

I never "dished out" anything remotely resembling the word "f*cking". Since when does that constitute mature discussion? Kahit heated man ang discussion, civil naman ako ah?

I wasn't playing the "young" card or "offended" card. I don't play cards like those. I discuss and argue to the best of my knowledge and ability. Believe me, its a case of you misunderstanding the points I was raising.

Wala namang away, mga sirs. I just don't take kindly to sir Perf's "f*cking" line. Also, again, no one said Zoom was utterly useless. All that was said is that some people prefer not to use Zoom for recording. What's the fuss about?

[titser_marco]

Wala namang away, mga sirs. I just don't take kindly to sir Perf's "f*cking" line. Also, again, no one said Zoom was utterly useless. All that was said is that some people prefer not to use Zoom for recording. What's the fuss about?

I dunno, but I think this mode of using the f-word shouldn't be very offending as it works as an adverb. I'd understand it if it were used either as a noun or verb, but in this case, I sense unnecessary sensitivity.

YMMV.

[chromeknive]

I dunno, but I think this mode of using the f-word shouldn't be very offending as it works as an adverb. I'd understand it if it were used either as a noun or verb, but in this case, I sense unnecessary sensitivity.

YMMV.

Yeah well, ok. Either way naman, chill lang ako. 

Para sakin lang, wag nalang talaga gamitin. Pwede namang hindi gamitin diba?

[stringman]

As I read the whole thread wala naman nag away, meron lang mis quouted and meron nag mis interpret.

People in this forum overlook Perf as a good engineer/producer, kung baga pag nakita nang mga forumers si Perf dito sa board, ang unang pumapasok sa isip nila eto yung magaling na gitarista. Pero really what made Perf pullout his sound with a simple RJ guitar> Zoom GFX8> Straight to Board was the mere fact na Perf had the ears to make his sound good in that recording. In fact pag maririnig niyo yung song, Perfs guitar playing wasn't that fancy. At the end ang ganda talaga nang tunog and again the setup was RJ Guitar> Zoom GFX8> Straight to board.

[FINGERZAP]

Yeah well, ok. Either way naman, chill lang ako. 

Para sakin lang, wag nalang talaga gamitin. Pwede namang hindi gamitin diba?

While we may have different views with regards to Zoom products, I agree with you that the use of the "f" word was uncalled for. I admire you for standing your ground.

I sense unnecessary sensitivity.

No such thing. Kung na-offend yung tao, na-offend sya. That is it. You cannot say "you shouldn't be offended" because people's boundaries differ from one another.

Hell, I would be offended if I were in his shoes!

[skunkyfunk]

We can always argue with Perf's use of the GFX-8 in the Luv 4 Lyf sessions.  I for onw was  to hear that from him.

But let's ask him personally... If he had to do everything again, would he still use a GFX-8 for that session, or something else?  Why not a Marshall JMP-1 through a cab sim? Why not an amp or a Soldano GTO? 

On the Aegis issue:  I am not a fan of Aegis, but I just zeroed in on the guitarist's tone.  It had nothing to do with their music.  Does anyone like to sound like a fuzz box through a karaoke?  That's the closest description I can think of.  Maybe some other guitarists would pursue that tone as a "texture sound" or something to that effect, but to say one wants to get that as his MAIN SOUND is lying big time.  Are you mad?  O sige, next time, go to a gig and dial in those Aegis settings!

People are not offended by words per se.  They are offended by the fact that some more experienced people can hear the significant difference between their econo-gear and pro-gear, thus they cannot accept the limitations of their econo-gear which they treat as prized trophies. 

As an example, prior to owning a real vintage pre-JCM Marshall, I thought getting that coveted Plexi sound was easy by twiddling with pedals and any amp in clean.  Up until I acquired a 1974 Marshall Super Bass when my view of Plexis changed completely.  But then again, I cannot claim it sounds like a JTM45 like Jimi used, as the real Plexis had different components!  And it is funny because some clueless people would say they nailed the Plexi sound through a Zoom G2.


This has nothing to do with elitism or anything similar.  It's all about having sonic goal in terms of record production or live, and my testament as a sound recordist tells you that there are BETTER tools than anything Zoom. 
 
PS I never think Zoom is USELESS.  I just think they're not the best for the job, especially if you talk about distortion.

[skunkyfunk]

even those we think as "trash". makes me wonder if you're familiar with the story of how the red hot chili peppers recorded "breaking the girl". specifically the "percussions" used in one part of the song. had they done that in your studio, would you have thrown out rick rubin, chad smith and company?

just wondering

I would be more than delighted to see and hear Rick Rubin record trash can lids and scrap metal for percussion as a TEXTURE TRACK. But I doubt he would recommend a Zoom to Frusciante to get his main sound.

 

[titser_marco]

While we may have different views with regards to Zoom products, I agree with you that the use of the "f" word was uncalled for. I admire you for standing your ground.

No such thing. Kung na-offend yung tao, na-offend sya. That is it. You cannot say "you shouldn't be offended" because people's boundaries differ from one another.

Hell, I would be offended if I were in his shoes!

We have such adjectives because they exist.

[BAMF]

You sure have figgered out people very well. You should have been a psychiatrist. Or maybe a psychic.

Okay sarcasm aside, you over-read or rather over-interpret people. People like their Zooms and you say

"People are not offended by words per se.  They are offended by the fact that some more experienced people can hear the significant difference between their econo-gear and pro-gear, thus they cannot accept the limitations of their econo-gear which they treat as prized trophies.  "

I can't see anyone here saying that Zooms are pro-gear. Used in a pro setting maybe (perf's track). But we love our zooms for different reasons and just take the good with the bad.

Why can't you just accept that your writing style is potentially offensive ? Isn't that a more plausible explanation as to why people get offended ?

We can always argue with Perf's use of the GFX-8 in the Luv 4 Lyf sessions.  I for onw was  to hear that from him.

But let's ask him personally... If he had to do everything again, would he still use a GFX-8 for that session, or something else?  Why not a Marshall JMP-1 through a cab sim? Why not an amp or a Soldano GTO? 

On the Aegis issue:  I am not a fan of Aegis, but I just zeroed in on the guitarist's tone.  It had nothing to do with their music.  Does anyone like to sound like a fuzz box through a karaoke?  That's the closest description I can think of.  Maybe some other guitarists would pursue that tone as a "texture sound" or something to that effect, but to say one wants to get that as his MAIN SOUND is lying big time.  Are you mad?  O sige, next time, go to a gig and dial in those Aegis settings!

People are not offended by words per se.  They are offended by the fact that some more experienced people can hear the significant difference between their econo-gear and pro-gear, thus they cannot accept the limitations of their econo-gear which they treat as prized trophies. 

As an example, prior to owning a real vintage pre-JCM Marshall, I thought getting that coveted Plexi sound was easy by twiddling with pedals and any amp in clean.  Up until I acquired a 1974 Marshall Super Bass when my view of Plexis changed completely.  But then again, I cannot claim it sounds like a JTM45 like Jimi used, as the real Plexis had different components!  And it is funny because some clueless people would say they nailed the Plexi sound through a Zoom G2.


This has nothing to do with elitism or anything similar.  It's all about having sonic goal in terms of record production or live, and my testament as a sound recordist tells you that there are BETTER tools than anything Zoom. 
 
PS I never think Zoom is USELESS.  I just think they're not the best for the job, especially if you talk about distortion.

[skunkyfunk]

You sure have figgered out people very well. You should have been a psychiatrist. Or maybe a psychic.

Okay sarcasm aside, you over-read or rather over-interpret people. People like their Zooms and you say

"People are not offended by words per se.  They are offended by the fact that some more experienced people can hear the significant difference between their econo-gear and pro-gear, thus they cannot accept the limitations of their econo-gear which they treat as prized trophies.  "

I can't see anyone here saying that Zooms are pro-gear. Used in a pro setting maybe (perf's track). But we love our zooms for different reasons and just take the good with the bad.

Why can't you just accept that your writing style is potentially offensive ? Isn't that a more plausible explanation as to why people get offended ?

Weren't you the one who said, "Offensive" is in the ear of the offendee? 

To make a long story short:  When you come to my studio, and you wanna use your Zoom, by all means, we shall be tweaking it to death (to give you the chance to exhaust all options) just to find out that using an analog pedal through some of the amps would do a better job. Your Zoom might work well in the console's FX loop though for the modulations. 

 

[BAMF]

Weren't you the one who said, "Offensive" is in the ear of the offendee? 

To make a long story short:  When you come to my studio, and you wanna use your Zoom, by all means, we shall be tweaking it to death (to give you the chance to exhaust all options) just to find out that using an analog pedal through some of the amps would do a better job. Your Zoom might work well in the console's FX loop though for the modulations. 

 

Yes I did. And if you could take it a step further, isn't the burden of communication on the commuicator ?

The issue of whether zooms sound good or not is moot with me by the way, because I can still hear the digital buzz at certain settings and it annoys me as well. But it has its good points. For instance, if you do a hybrid analog dirt to zoom modulation, you will get a killer set-up. Compact too. And that's what I love about zooms, even the humble 505-I.

[skunkyfunk]

Yes I did. And if you could take it a step further, isn't the burden of communication on the commuicator ?

The issue of whether zooms sound good or not is moot with me by the way, because I can still hear the digital buzz at certain settings and it annoys me as well. But it has its good points. For instance, if you do a hybrid analog dirt to zoom modulation, you will get a killer set-up. Compact too. And that's what I love about zooms, even the humble 505-I.

And I never said CHEESY = USELESS. 

To the guy who said why would I spend P2000 for a meal if I can have the same satisfaction for a P100 budget meal?  This is very true my friend.  Try giving a street child a serving of Angus steak...  I guess he'd be just as satisfied if you gave him a box of Chickenjoy. 

But does this make it ridiculous to spend P2,000 in a resto to impress your date?  Or when it's your anniversary?  Or when it's your son/daughter's graduation?  These are all SPECIAL occasions.  And for me, RECORDING IS A SPECIAL OCCASION.

[BAMF]

But does this make it ridiculous to spend P2,000 in a resto to impress your date?  Or when it's your anniversary?  Or when it's your son/daughter's graduation?  These are all SPECIAL occasions.  And for me, RECORDING IS A SPECIAL OCCASION.

It's ridiculous if you can't afford it. It's equally ridiculous if you take your vegan GF to a steak place. Get the metaphor ? To each his own din. If the client says "No, this digital sounding Zoom is MY sound". Don't argue with him. But if he says "maybe you can help". That's when you whip out your Marshalls and Randalls.

Which brings me to thinking...if Perf could do it all again, would he still do it the same way ? Who knows (except him). Maybe he would. So don't rush to a conclusion til you have the best information.

[skunkyfunk]

If the client says "No, this digital sounding Zoom is MY sound". Don't argue with him. But if he says "maybe you can help". That's when you whip out your Marshalls and Randalls.

I only give more options.  We should always give options for a more pleasant recording experience.  At the end of the day, it is the client who decides and not the engineer.

Which brings me to thinking...if Perf could do it all again, would he still do it the same way ? Who knows (except him). Maybe he would. So don't rush to a conclusion til you have the best information.

First we have to know the limitations he had at the time, knowing he also used JMP-1s in other projects.  AFAIK, PODs weren't that known, if not non-existent at the time.  (Although I still have my reservations on the POD, which is another potential can of worms if I open it ).

[BAMF]

First we have to know the limitations he had at the time, knowing he also used JMP-1s in other projects.  AFAIK, PODs weren't that known, if not non-existent at the time.  (Although I still have my reservations on the POD, which is another potential can of worms if I open it ).

We're almost at academic-level agreement. The last kink na lang is this: knowing that Perf used JMP-1 on other projects and still used a Zoom on that one, that should be a clue.

[jeibi16]

Yeah well, ok. Either way naman, chill lang ako. 

Para sakin lang, wag nalang talaga gamitin. Pwede namang hindi gamitin diba?

hehehehe arouch me na offend sa "f" word hehehe.. OT: wag ka manonood ng mga palabas ng mga egoy chong baka maoffend ka lala 

.. proud owner of a so called "crappy zoom" pero sabi nga.. kung me tyaga.. me tone! hehehe tweaking lang yan!! as someone has posted.. dont expect too much na lang.. ka mura na nga eh.. buti nga kahit pano nakaka deliver ng gusto mong tone... as I said.. kahit papaano... to keep this freakin (sana wala ma offend  ) argument (oh kung ano man) short... kahit ano pa gamit mong gear.. t-tweak mo yan to capture your tone kaya tweaking lang talaga ang sagot...  rakenroll!

[toybitz]

I've used to own a 505, and several korg multi...

yep, it does suck tone.  wouldn't recommend it for studio if you still want to hear what's gonna be missed if you plugged into one.

I do remember forumite Nicosci with his Youtube vid where he played a Satch piece.  The mayer/satch fan sounded great.  We don't have an idea how he "originally" sounded like going for other pedals...so its hard to compare if his tone would generally be more pleasing to the ears.  But as of his vid, the Dude sounded great.   

Notice the disclaimer between the lines?

[historymaker]

I would be more than delighted to see and hear Rick Rubin record trash can lids and scrap metal for percussion as a TEXTURE TRACK. But I doubt he would recommend a Zoom to Frusciante to get his main sound.

perhaps.. then again, i wouldn't say recommend. but if a particular sound that comes from a zoom unit is what's needed, shouldn't it be so?

personally, i'm a guitar-straight-to-amp kinda person so the zoom thing isn't really an issue for me. but let me qualify my earlier statement, sir. you said:

These things really worsen the signal chain.  You have a glorious sound coming from your guitar directly to your amp, and once you start putting any Zoom product between the guitar and amp, the signal degrades so badly, that you can start hearing 10111111010101010101001 10111111010101010101001 1111111010101010101001 101111110101010101111101 quality in your signal.  Mics cannot lie.  Presence and organic-ness is lost instantly.

i'm with you on the guitar to amp and signal degradation part. but to say worsen? if a person believes (and im the side of the artist here) he has the right sound with his zoom unit, knowing that he will sound differently without it, isn't he entitled to his happiness? i think that's why a lot of people were offended by your thread title. again, i'm not really too big on having a zoom unit between the guitar and amp but maybe other people want that. on tonal preference, one example i can think of is mike einziger (not a zoom user but..). he has claimed that if even one pedal is removed from his signal chain, it will mess up his sound. everything in his rig has it's purpose and it works well with their band. though i like his sound, you probably will never catch me with such a setup. works for him not for me. besides, if a person has a zoom unit in his signal chain and he did a live recording, should he then be told to take it out?

If the client says "No, this digital sounding Zoom is MY sound". Don't argue with him. But if he says "maybe you can help". That's when you whip out your Marshalls and Randalls.

I only give more options.  We should always give options for a more pleasant recording experience.  At the end of the day, it is the client who decides and not the engineer.

i guess thats it. your wording was deemed offensive by some. it's short of saying anyone who uses zoom in a recording is a moron, that is the law and the only way to go. a person's sound is a matter of preference not law. but thanks for sharing your opinion, sir. again i say, anything is possible 

[stringman]

So don't rush to a conclusion til you have the best information.

BAMF you nailed it!!!! Let me repeat again the two scenarios......

Perfs settings:RJ GUITAR> ZOOM GFX8> Straight to board= a good recording that's now part of Philippine music history.
Skunks settings:GOOD GUITAR (expensive I presume)> ZOOM MULTIEFFECTS> GOOD AMP (expensive I presume too)= CHEESE

For me, the better engineer just nailed the sound!

[arkeetar]

To the guy who said why would I spend P2000 for a meal if I can have the same satisfaction for a P100 budget meal?  This is very true my friend.  Try giving a street child a serving of Angus steak...  I guess he'd be just as satisfied if you gave him a box of Chickenjoy. 

But does this make it ridiculous to spend P2,000 in a resto to impress your date?  Or when it's your anniversary?  Or when it's your son/daughter's graduation?  These are all SPECIAL occasions.  And for me, RECORDING IS A SPECIAL OCCASION.
[/quote]

i've been using gfx-8 for at least 4 years, zoom user ako
pero i respect your opinion about the product...

hmmm kasi di pa ko nakakatry ng iba... so nasanay ako sa zoom kaya para sa akin ok cya... pero may hinanahanap pa ko... saka nafeel ko na ung diffference ng digital sa analog.... kung mag kakaroon ako ng budget for my setup... i would go for analogs

but the main reason i'm using zoom kasi affordable cya at multi nga... di ko cya matrade or to sell para sa analog kasi ibaiba tugtugan namin...

in conclusion, sa mga nabasa ko dito... ang dami ko pang dapat matutunan, and lahat may kanya kanyang point...