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Author Topic: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion  (Read 5179 times)

Offline Xilence

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I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« on: April 08, 2008, 03:03:47 AM »
Okay, a little background on myself first.
I am not an engineer or anything.  I am just a guitarist who's interested in digital recording.  I do know a few 'tricks' on sound editing (waveform editing or whatever you call it...)
I have this mp3 clip that I was sampling:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=823307

I used separated the drum tracks in MIDI (Finale 2006) and also the bass guitar parts and simply mixed them using the 'MIX' command from Goldwave.
I believe it sounded better than my other samples...
My problem now is that when I play it on other devices such as my iPod, the quality didn't quite make it... my friend said that there was a 'hole' in the frequency equalizer (whatever that meant :? )


Except for the drum lines and the bass...the guitar part is played by me thru a ZOOM G2.1u (USB direct to PC).

Now, I'd like to know what you guys think about it?

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 07:43:27 AM »
did you master this? it need more ambience and need more tweaking the keys are panned hard left,

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 10:47:12 PM »
did you master this? it need more ambience and need more tweaking the keys are panned hard left,
Nope.  I don't even know how to "master" or how the process goes.
I'm still a novice in recording ^_^

When you say "ambience" what do you mean by it?
I have yet to discover the potentials of my Cubase (The one that I had bundled with my guitar) so I guess I'll try to tweak the keys.  Any suggestions on this part?

I've also uploaded another sample: Storm Over The Ocean (O2-Jam cover)

Thank you for your insight.
I expect more comments from you guys! so keep 'em coming!

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 07:26:51 AM »
recording is like painting and that whole canvas should be properly arrange, not to put alot of stuff in it but make sure each frequency and signal of the instrument recorded will not overpower another, if you think compression thats not always the savior, in guitar not every frequency is needed to be heard and you could use a filter to remove those,

ambience the space used, i dont think recording is just a one plain space, where all you have is left center right mixing, try to mix in a multidimensional way, i prefer mixing my kick where it sounds im sitting in the drumset and the kick is coming from below my knee,

what is your DAW?

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 08:52:19 PM »
recording is like painting and that whole canvas should be properly arrange, not to put alot of stuff in it but make sure each frequency and signal of the instrument recorded will not overpower another, if you think compression thats not always the savior, in guitar not every frequency is needed to be heard and you could use a filter to remove those,

ambience the space used, i dont think recording is just a one plain space, where all you have is left center right mixing, try to mix in a multidimensional way, i prefer mixing my kick where it sounds im sitting in the drumset and the kick is coming from below my knee,

what is your DAW?
Hmmm...
I don't really have that much but I do use Finale 2006 and Goldwave 5.20
I have Cubase (of which I have only used ONCE)

Here's what I did with the song 'Trigunesque'
1 - Did MIDI tracks for drums. (Finale 2006)
2 - Separate staves for clappers, snare & kick, cymbals, toms... and the bass guitar parts, of course.
3 - Rendered the MIDIs in digital audio.  Each staff had been rendered separately.
4 - Used Goldwave to boost the signal (changed volume levels to about 75% more).
5 - "Mixed" the separate tracks with Goldwave. (I separated the kick from the clapper because having them together on a single staff made me lose control over volume.  It's like I emulated the process of having separate mics for each instrument)
6 - Recorded the guitar part also using Goldwave.  I have a ZOOM G2.1u so it was easier for me to make the necessary adjustments.
7 - I made some fine tuning (like compression and reverb) before I 'mixed' the soundwaves.
8 - Saved the entire project as .WAV (for back-up) and .MP3 (for general purpose).
----
That's what I basically did.  I'm still reading materials on 'mastering' and 'mixing' techniques and getting myself familiar with the audio jargons :)

----
Thanks for the descriptive analysis.  I think I've pictured it.  I'll try using Cubase when I get the chance again.

I've just uploaded my "Canon Rock" version.  This was when I was testing Cubase for the first time.  The backing track came from some site (which I forgot where).
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=823307


====
EDIT:
Hardware I'm using:
AMD Athlon 64bit X2 4200
REDFOX NVIDIA 6100 CHIPSET
512MB DDR2 667
Gforce 7200GS 256mb pci-e
80GB 7200rpm Seagate (50+30); 250GB 7200rpm (100+100+50)
Onboard sound
Altec Lansing speakers (if that counts)

Did I miss anything?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 11:28:57 PM by Xilence »


Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2008, 07:29:01 AM »
when you record your audio they have separate tracks/channels right? but you should send the signal to individual or grouped buses and these really improve the mixing, give it a shot

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 08:37:38 PM »
when you record your audio they have separate tracks/channels right? but you should send the signal to individual or grouped buses and these really improve the mixing, give it a shot

I'll try this.  I'll be reposting this within the week.  Thanks for the input.   :-)

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 08:46:51 PM »
no problem, also use a compressor in buses you want to control

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 10:32:19 PM »
If I use the compressor, what would be the best setting?  :?

Offline ailes

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2008, 11:13:48 PM »
it depends on the song to be mixed.. are you pertaining to an external or internal compressor (plugin)??
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Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 07:05:15 AM »
If I use the compressor, what would be the best setting?  :?

as the guy said it depends, not only to the song but to the signal recorded,

it depends on the song to be mixed.. are you pertaining to an external or internal compressor (plugin)??

i think he wants a plugin, i find it the izotope trash as a good filter and editing compressor and i use waves c1 as a track or buss compressor

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 04:17:32 PM »
as the guy said it depends, not only to the song but to the signal recorded,

i think he wants a plugin, i find it the izotope trash as a good filter and editing compressor and i use waves c1 as a track or buss compressor
Yes, I'd be using a plugin.

c1? buss compressor?? my nose is bleeding =ack= !!!  :? :? :?

...need to read more of these...

Offline ailes

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 04:29:00 PM »

sir goldwave gamit mo sa editing di ba??
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Offline moogerfooger

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2008, 01:51:02 AM »
Okay, a little background on myself first.
I am not an engineer or anything.  I am just a guitarist who's interested in digital recording.  I do know a few 'tricks' on sound editing (waveform editing or whatever you call it...)
I have this mp3 clip that I was sampling:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=823307

I used separated the drum tracks in MIDI (Finale 2006) and also the bass guitar parts and simply mixed them using the 'MIX' command from Goldwave.
I believe it sounded better than my other samples...
My problem now is that when I play it on other devices such as my iPod, the quality didn't quite make it... my friend said that there was a 'hole' in the frequency equalizer (whatever that meant :? )


Except for the drum lines and the bass...the guitar part is played by me thru a ZOOM G2.1u (USB direct to PC).

Now, I'd like to know what you guys think about it?


mix > master
"The spaces between your fingers were created so that another's could fill them in."

"NEVER FROWN BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHO MIGHT BE FALLING IN LOVE WITH YOUR SMILE"

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2008, 02:42:28 AM »
mix > master
mix is greater than master?
Pa-expound po.  Critisms are more than welcome! para may matutunan ako  :-)

@ailes... opo, goldwave pa lang.  I've used Cubase LG but only once when I was testing it out with the Canon Rock as my output.



Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2008, 07:06:27 AM »
mix is greater than master?
Pa-expound po.  Critisms are more than welcome! para may matutunan ako  :-)

@ailes... opo, goldwave pa lang.  I've used Cubase LG but only once when I was testing it out with the Canon Rock as my output.




It means the if the mix is good the less you will need to master it :), you use a notation software for drums right? export each part of the kit to a separate track the better your space in mixing the drum,

Offline lynman3

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 10:04:38 PM »
Hello Xilence

First if you really want to be known in the industry try to use your real name so people can contact you if they got some interest with you work. Wag ka gumamit ng alias.

The first few seconds its like chamber music then progressive rock comes in.

No need to especify all your gadgets used. Ang importante mai express mo yung idea mo. Sabi ng kakilala kong arranger  "wala sa pana yan, nasa galing yan ng indyan"

So far ok. Magaling try to make a rsong from a songwriter then express mo yung idea nya into your genre. Maganda may vocal rendition. Pwede kang sumali sa Ourstage free entance dun pare pero dapat original works hindi pwede cover.

Lynman








Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2008, 05:23:24 AM »
It means the if the mix is good the less you will need to master it :),
Yey.  In layman's terms: Mastering is fixing of the tracks in all aspects.  At least, that's what I've summed up...

you use a notation software for drums right? export each part of the kit to a separate track the better your space in mixing the drum,
Yes sir, that's what I did with "Trigunesque".  Finale 2006 also had this "export to audio (.WAV, .MP3)" thing which made it simpler for me (in the past, I had to use MIDI-2-WAV applications).

I'm currently doing a 'retake' on "Trigunesque".  It's an original that me and my band composed some years ago.  Drums'll still be MIDI  :wink: But I'll be using real bass guitar and real guitars this time. :lol:




Hello Xilence

First if you really want to be known in the industry try to use your real name so people can contact you if they got some interest with you work. Wag ka gumamit ng alias.

The first few seconds its like chamber music then progressive rock comes in.

No need to especify all your gadgets used. Ang importante mai express mo yung idea mo. Sabi ng kakilala kong arranger  "wala sa pana yan, nasa galing yan ng indyan"

So far ok. Magaling try to make a rsong from a songwriter then express mo yung idea nya into your genre. Maganda may vocal rendition. Pwede kang sumali sa Ourstage free entance dun pare pero dapat original works hindi pwede cover.

Lynman

First, thanks po sa comment.

I prefer to work in xilence po...   No offense meant :-).  I'd like to be anonymous for awhile.

It's really not the gadgets that I'm after.  It's the skill of using such gadgets and stuff kaya ko po ini-specify.  Afterall, I do want to be the Indian...   :-D
Medyo mahirap din kasi pag puro basa-basa...


===
My schedule's a bit off.  Call Center kasi... Di ako makapag-ingay dito  :evil:

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2008, 06:16:03 AM »
please keep asking questions, i will try to help  :-)

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2008, 07:20:59 AM »
please keep asking questions, i will try to help  :-)
^__^ Exactly what I had in mind.  Salamat po, sir bryan! (and to those who posted and will post on this thread).

Okay, here goes:
1. Trigunesque had some EQ problems.  Bass guitar didn't show up.  Couldn't get the kick to show up either (only if I listen too hard).  How do engineers attack these two? or more like make these two sound out separately at the bottom frequency?
Storm Over The Ocean had the same case except that you don't really have to listen too hard for the bottom end.  The problem still persisted on frequency.  :-(

2. I have Altec Lansing as monitor speakers (w/ subwoofer).  Is it sufficient? Minsan kasi maganda labas sa Altec tapos pagkasalpak ko sa iPod or sa ibang media, iba yung tunog.

3. I also would want to record some acoustic guitars and some vocals.  FireWire Audio Interfaces? I'm on a tight budget but willing to spend on one of these devices.  What would be a good firewire audio interface for beginners like me? (yung pwede rin magamit kahit pro na).

=
Does anyone here know of the song "Birthright" by Loquy? (from RF Online PH ...my friend says Loquy is also Razorback)
Interested ako sa mix nila.  I mean yung rock song na may halong acoustic pero yung dating ng acoustic guitar is like giving the song some depth.  I'd like to recreate the song's ambience (tama ba usage ko?  :-P).  or something like that...

Anyway, that's it for now.  Got to finish the laundry then work pa po me...

Thanks po sa offers.  Dami pako tanong!  :-D

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2008, 09:40:34 AM »
^__^ Exactly what I had in mind.  Salamat po, sir bryan! (and to those who posted and will post on this thread).

First please walang "Sir" :)

Okay, here goes:
1. Trigunesque had some EQ problems.  Bass guitar didn't show up.  Couldn't get the kick to show up either (only if I listen too hard).  How do engineers attack these two? or more like make these two sound out separately at the bottom frequency?

Every engineer has a different approach, i will just share mine i dont consider my self an engineer because i dont have the degree on it my dad has, but i dont
ok so bass guitar and kick drum, are the backbone of the mix unless its concert piano lol, but anyway these two is what "for me" makes it solid and drives movement. the snare is the attack(considering approach), so cutting down the jargon crap, its all experimental and by taste,

i mix it like they "almost occupy" the same space but off just a few % in panning, i like my kick slightly off center about 2% and my bass dead center, i also like using drumagog in another copy of the kick track and mix the two tracks then use a compressor(plugin). i rarely eq the kick but i like compressing it,

the bass guitar i like cleaning it up first then use izotope trash to another copy of the track and remove unwanted frequencies, and boost the midrange a bit but not too much, and scooping the around 15K using the same plug in, then i mix to taste to make sure both(kick and bass) visually the bass should be at the back of my head and the kick sounds its coming from my right leg,


Storm Over The Ocean had the same case except that you don't really have to listen too hard for the bottom end.  The problem still persisted on frequency.  :-(

Well you cant fix it if you dont separate each track, if you have time to separate all instruments let me play with it :)

2. I have Altec Lansing as monitor speakers (w/ subwoofer).  Is it sufficient? Minsan kasi maganda labas sa Altec tapos pagkasalpak ko sa iPod or sa ibang media, iba yung tunog.

nope i use that too before highschool and to me it sounded neat when playing the track through those then it masks and enhances the bass, i then tried using my dads celestion studio monitors then found out how crappy my mix was lol,

Altec boost and hides stuff,

3. I also would want to record some acoustic guitars and some vocals.  FireWire Audio Interfaces? I'm on a tight budget but willing to spend on one of these devices.  What would be a good firewire audio interface for beginners like me? (yung pwede rin magamit kahit pro na).

sometimes i like to use the SM57 for acoustic but you can really appreciate a condenser or large condenser,i dont why i cant spell dia-fram microphone today im sorry,

Firewire is cool because they can transmit 8 channels(depending on model/brand) of audio, one of the budget firewires before it got discontinued was the hercules 16/10, which can handle 8 audio and it cost $299, mine is with my cousin, the only prob with it was the aluminum casing was soft, really soft. and it was portable,MOTU is like now the cheapest i know is the portable version,its also 8 channels of audio(not including midi and digital spdif) firewire device with 8 channels, M-audio and behringer also released some cool stuff this year, check those out if you have time

Usb can handle at max 4 channels of audio,

=
Does anyone here know of the song "Birthright" by Loquy? (from RF Online PH ...my friend says Loquy is also Razorback)
Interested ako sa mix nila.  I mean yung rock song na may halong acoustic pero yung dating ng acoustic guitar is like giving the song some depth.  I'd like to recreate the song's ambience (tama ba usage ko?  :-P).  or something like that...

I neverheard but i would like a link or sound sample to listen too, yes adding an acoustic will give another flavor of the song, here's also a little experiment when recording heavy music but want to give that guitar more punch, is to use a splitter in the guitars output,1 cable straight to an amp that has the fx and dirt peds and another to an amp with just a clean channel, this makes rhythm guitar work really phat, i wouldnt recommend it on solo's if not properly compressed it tends to sound annoying


Anyway, that's it for now.  Got to finish the laundry then work pa po me...

Thanks po sa offers.  Dami pako tanong!  :-D

here's a sound sample using the Hercules 16/18 firewire and im sorry the snare was not captured as i forgot to plug the mic cable to the interface so it was actually recorded by the overheads  :-D

Offline KitC

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2008, 03:59:17 PM »
2. I have Altec Lansing as monitor speakers (w/ subwoofer).  Is it sufficient? Minsan kasi maganda labas sa Altec tapos pagkasalpak ko sa iPod or sa ibang media, iba yung tunog.

Early on before the turn of the century, I made the mistake on mixing on my Altecs. All mixes came out boomy on other systems. Turns out the Altec's bass crossover frequency had a rather substantial notch.

Always compare your mixes on other systems. In time you will probably get a hang of mixing on the Altecs, but I really suggest getting a pair of monitors your can trust.
Sonar 4.04PE/5.2PE/7.02PE/8.31 PE, Project 5 v2.5.1, EmulatorX 1.5, Cubase SL2, Ableton Live 7.14,  Intel Q6600 MSI P43 Neo 4Gb Crucial Ballistix Tracer DDR2-800, Emu 1820m, Yamaha DSP Factory, Terratec DMX 6fire

Offline Xilence

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2008, 12:52:35 AM »
here's a sound sample using the Hercules 16/18 firewire and im sorry the snare was not captured as i forgot to plug the mic cable to the interface so it was actually recorded by the overheads  :-D
Where's the link po  :? 
Ok, I'll try to visualize when I mix.  In the meantime, I'm visualizing some of the recordings that I love listening to.  Observe ko muna mga works then try ko i-emulate or gayahin.  Monkey see, monkey do...  :-D
If I have the time tomorrow, I'll be remixing "Storm Over The Ocean" and hopefully make it available for review.
I sent a text message to a friend who works for Behringer.  Baka dun nako magpurchase...If not next month, the following month pa siguro... :lol:


Early on before the turn of the century, I made the mistake on mixing on my Altecs. All mixes came out boomy on other systems. Turns out the Altec's bass crossover frequency had a rather substantial notch.

Always compare your mixes on other systems. In time you will probably get a hang of mixing on the Altecs, but I really suggest getting a pair of monitors your can trust.
True! Napeke ako... that's why I'm planning on replacing my monitors with more appropriate ones.  Sir Kit, may alam po ba kayong magandang set? particular brand that's not so hard on the budget?
I trusted Altecs pa naman... huhuhu... now I don't know which brands to trust :cry:


Offline moogerfooger

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2008, 01:15:18 AM »
Where's the link po  :? 
Ok, I'll try to visualize when I mix.  In the meantime, I'm visualizing some of the recordings that I love listening to.  Observe ko muna mga works then try ko i-emulate or gayahin.  Monkey see, monkey do...  :-D
If I have the time tomorrow, I'll be remixing "Storm Over The Ocean" and hopefully make it available for review.
I sent a text message to a friend who works for Behringer.  Baka dun nako magpurchase...If not next month, the following month pa siguro... :lol:

True! Napeke ako... that's why I'm planning on replacing my monitors with more appropriate ones.  Sir Kit, may alam po ba kayong magandang set? particular brand that's not so hard on the budget?
I trusted Altecs pa naman... huhuhu... now I don't know which brands to trust :cry:



try mo sir yamaha NS10
"The spaces between your fingers were created so that another's could fill them in."

"NEVER FROWN BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHO MIGHT BE FALLING IN LOVE WITH YOUR SMILE"

Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: I Need Your EXPERT Opinion
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2008, 07:12:42 AM »