Post by: firemodel55 on July 31, 2015, 10:57:51 PM
Since I started taking up drums, my guitar gear has been on the back burner. I am not as up to date as I want to be with regards to it. As a drummer, a lot of people get stuck with timbre AND thats what actually differentiates the expensive and great sounding drums from the cheap ones. I am lucky to have afforded a one-off DW Collector's series along with Paiste Signatures which I feel have the best sounding CRASHES of any brand out there specially if you are into rock and heavy stuff.
For guitar, its that PLUS character. Not only is pleasing timbre consider part of a great sounding guitar, other elements are involved including: sustain, pick definition, bigness in sound, rich in harmonics, musical to the ear, expression, sounds in tune, etc. But most importantly, I have said this before: HIYAW is the most important indicator. Drums don't have hiyaw.
When we do any of the following, we mostly affect timbre and the sonic properties of a guitar (which I guess most of you call TONE and stop there):
a) changing pickups and electronics along with caps, pots, switches and wire ( I used to do cryogenic all the way up to my jack)
b) changing nut (I used to have a guitar with mammoth tusks as a nut)
c) changing fret material (I have several guitars with stainless steel frets)
d) changing bridge/saddle and material of bridge saddle (I play around with titanium, aluminium and more recently marble and tungsten)
e) changing tuners (gotohs are still my favourite; though I find the planet waves auto trim tuners on my chris broderick USA amusing)
f) changing pickguard material -- it does affect timbre specially on strats
g) changing string gauge and composition
But the great sounding guitars, still will sound themselves when you change those enumerated from a )-g) above. Because they have the character of Hiyaw. And this elusive property of hiyaw, is in my experience what EVERYBODY finds amazing in these rare finds.
If you ask me where Hiyaw comes from; it comes from the UNIQUE interaction between specific pieces of wood and nowhere else. For purposes of simplicity, I can take my Custom Shop Tele and put in humbuckers and install a floyd and it will still maintain Hiyaw. Will it sound like a country Tele? With all those changes it would not. But it will now sound great as a hard rock and instrumental guitar.
Post by: randymarsh on August 01, 2015, 01:08:53 AM
I can take my Custom Shop Tele and put in humbuckers and install a floyd and it will still maintain Hiyaw.
Is this a dare? Dalhin na yan kay Arie :-D
Post by: horge on August 01, 2015, 04:25:10 AM
You previously seemed to believe there's a singular perfect tone.
Now you're claiming 'hiyaw' as a separate phenomenon that elevates tone to greatness.
I suspect you'd agree, that the problem with proposing a universally perfect tone is that, unless
you're going to claim that, say, telecasters and Les Paul's put out the same tone, you are going
to be exalting one as perfect and downgrading the other as inferior. However, even if one (much
more reasonably) espouses ideal tones for each guitar type, one will be dangerously close to
questioning the purpose of FX boxes: even the most degraded/distorted output has its uses,
and where signal is degraded/distorted, there will likely be a detrimental effect on this delicate
phenomenon you are claiming. That phenomenon would have to be in the output signal, to be
relevant to others.
Has anyone else isolated this phenomenon you are claiming to be so important?
Have you or anyone else successfully measured and documented it, or is it merely anecdotal,
necessarily from your subjective POV?
Ignoring subjectivity is the kinder way to describe the problem here.
One person's hearing quality is another's hearing defect, and you have to consider two things:
-That if someone keeps insisting on a phenomenon that only they can perceive, whether it's
ghosts, unicorns or hiyaw (you did claim repeatedly that scientific measurement mightn't detect
what you can hear, on the antique-baby-rhino-tears-cap thread), then maybe the phenomenon
only exists in that particular person's perception. To put it kindly, that that person's perception
is defective/abnormal. To put it less kindly, that that person appears to be making it all up.
-That even if you're right, absolute declarations are more abrasive than humble suggestion.
Saying in so many words 'your tone is poor and my ears are superior, so respect my authority'
will gain you a less receptive audience than saying 'perhaps you might want to listen to this,
and see if you like it better'... followed by offer of a common frame of reference, such as some
commercially-available recorded material which can be pplayed back to high fidelity. If they still
can't hear the difference you claim to be hearing, what's the point to further insistence? If they
cannot hear it, they will not care, which is perfectly rational behavior on their part.
I'm sure you'd like to be recognized as some sort of tone expert, and not merely a gear queer
spending money and (brand)name-dropping to BUY respect. I'd suspect you'd like to have the
word hiyaw associated with you, given how often you use it.
However...
For someone claiming to have superior hearing, you may need to listen to what you're saying,
or rather, how you're saying it, then ask yourself if there isn't a better way.
Post by: mayk_bam on August 01, 2015, 05:29:27 AM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 07:33:15 AM
Is this a dare? Dalhin na yan kay Arie :-D
I only used that as an example but I want to keep the Tele as is kasi marami na akong humbucker equipped na naka floyd rose.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 07:58:46 AM
Alex,
(Nice to see you post again.)
You previously seemed to believe there's a singular perfect tone. (Not at all one tone or timbre; but one character of Hiyaw)
Now you're claiming 'hiyaw' as a separate phenomenon that elevates tone to greatness.
( I think a GREAT sounding Keeper of guitar has to have hiyaw. Its the keep factor. You can have spec correct timbre but dead sounding as a guitar. The irony is that guitars that have hiyaw actually automatically have a pleasantness to the ears.)
I suspect you'd agree, that the problem with proposing a universally perfect tone is that, unless
you're going to claim that, say, telecasters and Les Paul's put out the same tone, you are going
to be exalting one as perfect and downgrading the other as inferior.
(What I am Claim is: There is a Tele with Hiyaw and There is a Les Paul with Hiyaw. Hiyaw is universal across the different types while at the same time preserving the unique timbre of the Les Paul and Telecaster.)
However, even if one (much
more reasonably) espouses ideal tones for each guitar type, one will be dangerously close to
questioning the purpose of FX boxes: even the most degraded/distorted output has its uses,
and where signal is degraded/distorted, there will likely be a detrimental effect on this delicate
phenomenon you are claiming. That phenomenon would have to be in the output signal, to be
relevant to others.
(Heavy Modulation or Heavy Distortion may minimize Hiyaw. In fact anything, that approaches the synth timbre -- for example 100% Delay Mix with Chorus with Reverb with Harmonizer -- will make hiyaw not obvious.)
Has anyone else isolated this phenomenon you are claiming to be so important?
(Arie Hipolito and some others)
Have you or anyone else successfully measured and documented it, or is it merely anecdotal,
necessarily from your subjective POV?
(Its heard but more of felt in comparing one guitar from another.)
Ignoring subjectivity is the kinder way to describe the problem here.
One person's hearing quality is another's hearing defect, and you have to consider two things:
(I always optimistically believe that ALL should hear it but Arie tells me there are others that cannot hear it.)
-That if someone keeps insisting on a phenomenon that only they can perceive, whether it's
ghosts, unicorns or hiyaw (you did claim repeatedly that scientific measurement mightn't detect
what you can hear, on the antique-baby-rhino-tears-cap thread), then maybe the phenomenon
only exists in that particular person's perception. To put it kindly, that that person's perception
is defective/abnormal. To put it less kindly, that that person appears to be making it all up.
(If I base it on my experience, I have heard so many guitars without hiyaw to know that hiyaw exists in a guitar. On the other hand, All 15 of my guitars have hiyaw.)
-That even if you're right, absolute declarations are more abrasive than humble suggestion.
Saying in so many words 'your tone is poor and my ears are superior, so respect my authority'
will gain you a less receptive audience than saying 'perhaps you might want to listen to this,
and see if you like it better'... followed by offer of a common frame of reference, such as some
commercially-available recorded material which can be pplayed back to high fidelity. If they still
can't hear the difference you claim to be hearing, what's the point to further insistence? If they
cannot hear it, they will not care, which is perfectly rational behavior on their part.
(Well, I am trying to preach to the open minded. I am trying to convince people to break free from commercialized gear that sound like crap; so at times I can be abrasive. Pero ganyan ang pinoy, for my point to sink in their dense Defense Mechanism I have to be poignant.)
(On the other hand, I keep a MIJ Charvel that absolutely has no HIYAW. I told Arie to specifically look for a guitar that sounded bad so I can provide a reference to my other 15 guitars. In this way, a person does not need to bring his own instrument to see the difference and thereby feel bad if his instrument does not have hiyaw.)
I'm sure you'd like to be recognized as some sort of tone expert, and not merely a gear queer
spending money and (brand)name-dropping to BUY respect. I'd suspect you'd like to have the
word hiyaw associated with you, given how often you use it.
(Nope. I just want people to avoid getting sucked into buying bad sounding equipment and be drawn in by marketing hype.)
However...
For someone claiming to have superior hearing, you may need to listen to what you're saying,
or rather, how you're saying it, then ask yourself if there isn't a better way.
(I don't claim to have superior hearing because I honestly believe other people can and should hear it. I am just lucky enough to be more exposed. With Filipinos, given their heavily entrenched bias and pride; brutally frank and abrasive language is the way to go kasi deadma sila. That being said, I have been more mild compared to my past self.)
Post by: bgarcia on August 01, 2015, 08:46:42 AM
:-D :-D
Firemodel is it possible for a bad sounding guitar to have hiyaw?
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 08:52:20 AM
:-D :-D
Firemodel is it possible for a bad sounding guitar to have hiyaw?
In my experience, nope. Its more like the reverse. Usually a guitar with hiyaw ALSO seems to have great sounding timbre.
Post by: horge on August 01, 2015, 09:13:27 AM
What I am Claim is: There is a Tele with Hiyaw and There is a Les Paul with Hiyaw. Hiyaw is universal across the different types while at the same time preserving the unique timbre of the Les Paul and Telecaster.
Yes, I understood that, whence I said:
"now you're claiming 'hiyaw' as a separate phenomenon that elevates tone to greatness."
Quote
Heavy Modulation or Heavy Distortion may minimize Hiyaw. In fact anything, that approaches the synth timbre -- for example 100% Delay Mix with Chorus with Reverb with Harmonizer -- will make hiyaw not obvious.
Yes again. This is why, given the prevalence of heavily processed output these days (there
is no accounting for taste or fashion), an alleged phenomenon that is subdued or eliminated
during said processing isn't going to matter very much to users who PREFER said processing.
Theirs-theirs 'yan, when it comes to preference: and when the preference is for the intensive
sort of processing you described above, then this hiyaw of yours becomes undesirable, or at
least irrelevant.
Quote
Arie Hipolito and some others ... Its heard but more of felt in comparing one guitar from another.
Mahirap ang ganyang qualitative/anecdotal reference in any serious, factual discussion.
When you make an assertion that others cannot relate to (and make the assertion in an
abrasive manner) talo tayo.
What most people can relate to are terms of common reference.
Everyone ought to (or can learn to) understand fairly common terms like "bass", "treble",
"sustain", etc ... and to a lesser extent, matters like resonance, wave theory, etc... and
these are all terms with very long provenance and acceptance behind them.
when you try to coin some new term, the assumption is that it is one of two things:
1) it describes a completely new phenomenon --otherwise, why didn't you just use standard
terms to describe what you are talking about. You will be met with doubt, because centuries
of inquiry would have likely found and described this phenomenon before you.
2) it refers to something you are unable to correctly describe using standard terms, in which
case there will be problems communicating your message to others. Kasi nga you are not
using common references that most can understand. Dagdagan mo pa ng abrasiveness and
there'll be even more reason to devalue what you claim.
Quote
I always optimistically believe that ALL should hear it but Arie tells me there are others that cannot hear it.
Arie is rightly catholic in allowing for the possibility that people are different from one another,
meaning differences in individual ability to perceive, as much as differences in preference.
I'll cut to the chase:
I am perfectly willing to listen to your promotion of a phenomenon you call 'hiyaw', but three
things have long obstructed my ability to do so:
1) You have never satisfactorily described what the phenomenon actually is, in standard terms
that I can understand. Thus far it's been qualitative and anecdotal --no different from someone
talking about "that X factor ---you'll just now it". The crucial difference here is that terms like
"x-factor" and "mojo" aren't often used in arguments for universal value. When someone cites
"mojo" or "x-factor", there's PLENTY of room left for different preferences: one guy's mojo is one
gal's meh. If you want to describe or define something new, try to use standard terms that all
can understand. "It's heard but more of felt" isn't good enough for serious discussion, and
your argument of universality (as well as the tone in which you make your arguments) makes it
serious.
2) As you admit, you've been abrasive in your presentation: you cannot seem to promote this
phenomenon or quality you call hiyaw, without bashing the lack of it. Most any quality will have
admirers, detractors and those who are indifferent --the same way some like, dislike, or don't
care either way, about freckles on a pretty girl. I agree you've calmed down a bit, and I thank
you for that, but you're still not helping promote your message. Again, I suggest you don't start
off with saying someone else's stuff is crap. Instead, just offer them an alternative in terms that
all can understand. As also I said, maybe a commercially-available recording that can be played
back with high fidelity. Non-commercially, you clearly have the ability to make such a recording.
If this quality you're claiming (hiyaw) cannot translate into a recording, then many will rightly
question its real-world value, and even its actual existence.
3) You seem to (brand)name-drop a lot. In rare cases it's relevant, but most of the time it does
come off as you bragging that you can afford certain gear. Specificity when making reference
(to a guitar) is a good thing, but if that reference isn't one that your audience has a common
familiarity with (por ejemplo, you cite a brand/make/model that most of your audience have
zero experience with, because it's so exclusive/expensive), then bringing it up is pointless. The
only people you'd be convincing are brand-conscious lemmings, and we both know the priciest
and most exclusive brands can still turn out lemons.
Even if standard terms fail to find use in your arguments, a recording (one that can be played to
high fidelity), featuring two similar guitars: one with and one without this 'hiyaw', will put this
issue to bed quickly.
Good health,
h.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
I WILL USE CAPS PARA MADALING MABASA
Yes, I understood that, hance I said:
"now you're claiming 'hiyaw' as a separate phenomenon that elevates tone to greatness."
Yes again. This is why, given the prevalence of heavily processed output these days (there is
no accounting for taste or fashion), an alleged phenomenon that is subdued or eliminated
during said processing isn't going to matter very much to users who LIKE said processing.
Theirs-theirs 'yan, when it comes to preferences: and when preference is for the intensive
sort of processing you described above, then this hiyaw of yours becomes undesirable, or
at least irrelevant.
WHETHER YOU HEAVILY PROCESS OR NOT; IT WILL NOT AFFECT WHETHER A GUITAR HAS HIYAW OR NOT. BUT RATHER FOR THE MAJORITY THAT DO NOT HEAVILY PROCESS IT IS RELEVANT.
FOR THOSE WHO HEAVILY PROCESS; I WILL LET YOU IN ON A SECRET. YOUR SOUND AND TIMBRE GETS WORSE. IT MIGHT BE A MATTER OF PREFERENCE BUT HUMAN EARS CAN ONLY BEAR SO MUCH PROCESSING BEFORE IT SOUNDS TIRING.
Mahirap ang ganyang qualitative/anecdotal reference in any serious, factual discussion.
When you make an assertion that others cannot relate to (and make the assertion in an
abrasive manner) talo tayo.
NOT EVERYTHING LIFE CAN BE QUALITATIVE. I CAN IN SOME WAY MEASURE, SURVEY PEOPLE WHO CAN AND CANNOT HEAR HIYAW. BUT IT WILL BE A USELESS MEASURE BECAUSE HIYAW IS NOT JUST AN ON AND OFF SWITCH. ITS MORE THAN THAT. ITS LIKE TASTING THE BEST KARE KARE IN YOUR LIFE. THERE IS NO MEASURE BUT YOU KNOW IT TASTES SO MUCH BETTER IN MAGNITUDE THAN ORDINARY KARE KARE.
What most people can relate to are terms of common reference.
Everyone ought to (or can learn to) understand fairly common terms like "bass", "treble",
"sustain", etc ... and to a lesser extent, matters like resonance, wave theory, etc... and
these are all terms with very long provenance and acceptance behind them.
I DOUBT THAT THEY CAN TRULY RELATE. ASK EVERYBODY HERE TO DEFINE WHAT BASS AND TREBLE, YOU WILL COME UP WITH SO MANY ANSWERS. YET WE PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER. JUST BECAUSE HIYAW IS A NEW TERM AND FLEETING PROPERTY DOES NOT MEAN IT SHOULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH CURRENT UNDERSTOOD PARLANCE FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT EXISTING PARLANCE IS INSUFFICIENT AND INFERIOR.
when you introducing some new term, the assumption is that it is one of two things:
1) something completely new --otherwise, why not use standard terms to describe what you
are talking about. If it's something completely new, you will be met with doubt, because
centuries of inquiry would have likely found and described it before you.
I AGREE. BUT I HAVE TO SAY THAT 60 YEARS SINCE THE DAWN OF ELECTRIC GUITAR AND ELECTRIC GUITAR AMPLIFICATION, THE GENRE IS STILL QUITE YOUNG. BUT AS EARLY AS THE 60S, KNOWN GUITARISTS HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING THE PROPERTY -- THAT X FACTOR IN A GUITAR.
2) something you are unable to correctly describe using standard terms, in which case there
will be problems communicating your message to others. Kas nga you're not using common
reference that most can understand. Dagdagan mo pa ng abrasiveness and there'll be even
more reason to devalue what you say.
SINCE HIYAW IS AN EXPERIENCE, I REALIZED STANDARD TERMS ARE LESS THAN CAPABLE OF COMMUNICATING THE REALITY. FOR THAT REASON, AS I MENTIONED ABOVE, I BOUGHT A MIJ CHARVEL WITHOUT HIYAW TO COMMUNICATE THE REALITY OF HIYAW BETTER.
Arie is happily catholic, allowing the possibility that people can be different from one another:
and that means, differences in individual ability to perceive, as well as differences in individual
preference.
ARIE WAS FORMERLY AN UNHAPPY CATHOLIC. NOW, HE IS AN UNHAPPY BAPTIST. LOL.
A FRIEND GUITARIST WITH THE INITIALS J.P. CONSIDERED ONE OF THE GREATEST GUITARISTS IN THE PHILIPPINES, VISITED ME. HE GOT TO TRY OUT MY AMPS. AND I WAS SURPRISED BECAUSE HE LOVED THE DIEZEL HERBERT CHANNEL 2 PLUS. I TOLD HIM PANG METAL ANG AMP NA IYAN KNOWING THAT HE DOES JAZZ AND FUSION.
SABI NIYA SA AKIN, I CAN CONTROL IT WITH MY VOLUME CONTROL ON MY 1965 STRAT. HUH? IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT EVERYBODY OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUND WHO TRIED THE DIEZEL HERBERT LOVES THE CHANNEL 2 PLUS. BAKIT? AKALA KO BA KANYA KANYA?
I'll cut to the chase:
I am perfectly willing to listen to your argument for a phenomenon you call 'hiyaw', but
three things have long obstructed my ability to do so:
1) You have never satisfactorily described what the phenomenon actually is, in standard
terms that I can understand. Thus far it's been qualitative and anecdotal --no different
from someone talking about "that X factor ---you'll just now it", although terms like
"x-factor" and "mojo" allow for relativty and preference, unlike the universality you
ascribe to 'hiyaw'. If you want to describe or define something new, try to use accepted
terms that all can understand. "It's more of a feeling" isn't good enough for serious
discussion.
ITS NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD FIRST, BUT IT IS TO BE EXPERIENCED FIRST BEFORE IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.
2) As you admit, you've been abrasive in your presentation: you can't seem to promote
a phenomenon or quality without bashing the lack of it. Any quality will have admirers,
detractors and those who are indifferent --the way some like, dislike, or don't care about
freckles on a pretty girl. I agree you've calmed down a bit, but you're still not helping
promote your message. Again, I suggest you don't start ff by saying someone else's
stuff is crap. Instead, just offer them an alternative in terms that all can understand. As
I said, perhaps a commercially-available recording which can be played back with high
fidelity. Non-commercially, you clearly have the ability to make such a recording --and if '
this quality you're claiming (hiyaw) cannot translate into a recording, then many will quite
rightly question its real-world value, or even its actual existence.
SINCE MY GUITARS ALL HAVE HIYAW AND THE REST OF MY EQUIPMENT ARE REALLY TOP NOTCH IN THE WORLD, DAILY EXPOSURE SEEMS TO MAKE COMMON THEIR OUTSTANDING PROPERTIES. I GOT USED TO GREAT SOUNDING GEAR THAT I STARTED DOUBTING THAT ANYTHING WAS GREAT ABOUT IT.
THEN I REALIZED THAT WHEN I GO INTO GUITAR STORES TO TRY OUT GUITARS AND AMPS, THEY REALLY SOUND LIKE CRAP. THEY SEEMED TO LACK SO MANY THINGS THAT MY CURRENT STANDARDS HAVE. PARANG I TOOK MY STUFF FOR GRANTED.
IN ADDITION, SINCE THERE WAS SO MUCH CRAP EQUIPMENT, ABOUT 90% OF THEM ARE, THAT THE ONLY WAY TO EXPLAIN THE REALITY OF HIYAW IS TO DECLARE THE LACK OF IT.
HOW MANY PERCENT OF THE TIME DO YOU RECORD COMPARED TO THE PERCENT OF THE TIME YOU GIG AND PRACTICE? I BET 10% OF THE TIME. THE REST OF YOUR MEAL TICKET IS SPENT IN REHEARSALS AND LIVE GIGS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY PRACTICE WILL CONTROL A LARGE PERCENTAGE.
A GUITAR WITH HIYAW MAKES PRACTICE EASIER BECAUSE IT DOES NOT TIRE THE EAR. A GUITAR WITH HIYAW MAKES YOUR GIG SOUND BETTER BECAUSE ITS EASIER ON THE EAR OF THE AUDIENCE AND MAKES YOU SOUND YOUR BEST.
SIMPLE NA LANG, DID YOU EVER BUY A GUITAR BASED ON A RECORDING WITHOUT TRYING A GUITAR IN PERSON?
3) You seem to keep on (brand)name-dropping. In a few cases it's relevant, but most of
the time it comes off as you bragging that you can afford certain gear. Specificity in making
a reference is a good thing, but if that reference isn't one that your audience has common
familiarity with (por ejemplo, you cite a brand/make/model that most of your audience have
zero experience with), then bringing it up is pointless. The only people you'd be convincing
are brand-conscious lemmings, and we both know the priciest brands can turn out lemons.
Cool it with that, because it comes off as bragging. A recording that can be played to high
fidelity, featuring two similar guitars: one with and one without this 'hiyaw', will put this
issue to bed quickly.
HOW DO YOU SEARCH FOR TONE? KUNG KAILANGAN MAGING FAMILIAR, THEN YOUR TONEQUEST IS BORDERING ON THE COMMERCIAL AND SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE. I FREE MYSELF OF THAT BIAS. I CITE BRANDS THAT DELIVER MORE THAN THE FAMILIAR.
ITS NOT MY PROBLEM THAT THERE ARE PRICIER BRANDS THAT ARE LEMONS BECAUSE I CAN EASILY DISTINGUISH THEM. BUT THERE ARE A GREATER NUMBER OF PRICIER BRANDS THAT DELIVER MORE AND BEYOND THE FAMILIAR.
NO RECORDING NEEDED, I JUST NEED TO SHOW YOU 15 GREAT GUITARS INTO MY GREAT SOUNDING AMPS AGAINST MY CRAPPY CHARVEL. AS I SAID, IT IS BEYOND HEARING BECAUSE IT INCLUDES HEART.
Cheers,
h.
Post by: horge on August 01, 2015, 10:00:03 AM
so far you are no closer to moving away from the anecdotal, the very-subjectively qualitative and thus, to
those without a reference held-in-common with you, the vague. It is frustrating, to say the least.
SIMPLE NA LANG, DID YOU EVER BUY A GUITAR BASED ON A RECORDING WITHOUT TRYING A GUITAR IN PERSON?
The discussion does not involve me BUYING a guitar, lol.
The discussion involves (hopefully) my coming to understand some 'new' quality of the output from an electric
guitar. If the output can be recorded (it can), then please record it, with a control specimen's output for a
proper audial comparison.
If no skill at recording can capture this alleged quality, I have to question much (or indeed all) of its value.
To be clear, I have no trouble believing that YOU believe.
Why should I care what another person believes, if it doesn't harm me?
The problem is you keep arguing for others to believe, without helping us understand WHAT to believe in.
Again, saying "it's a feeling" does not really help others understand EXACTLY what that feeling is. Please
try to find a common reference so we can communicate effectively, preferably a common reference involving
some precision and specificity.
While we're on the subject of belief:
ARIE WAS FORMERLY AN UNHAPPY CATHOLIC. NOW, HE IS AN UNHAPPY BAPTIST. LOL.
I know you were using humor, but so there's no misunderstanding by others:
I used 'catholic' with a lower case "c", lol.
Off topic: I once dated a Baptist. She was all kinds of messed up, which was great in bed, but was the exact
opposite of great in practically all other respects.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 11:23:21 AM
It seems to be very qualitative because the occurrence of Hiyaw is rare in a guitar. Words are very insufficient to describe it and so are existing quantitative measures. I understand the predicament but the only way I can think is really for you to try my fifteen guitars in person against my crappy Charvel.
With regards to mentioning the buying a guitar example, I meant to say that people are not confident to buy guitars without hearing them in person because they know recordings cannot capture a lot of nuances the guitar that count. For example, feel of the neck, scale length, actual color and aesthetic, etc. Hiyaw is also one of those properties that is better heard in person than recorded.
With regards to FEELING IT, it hits the heart and it inspires parang you cannot stop playing the guitar the whole day... Its as if the guitar reacts and anticipates your notes. Ang hirap i-describe but my 15 guitars of different types will best show you because the 15 guitars have different facets that combine with Hiyaw.
Post by: royc on August 01, 2015, 12:28:41 PM
Even if standard terms fail to find use in your arguments, a recording (one that can be played to
high fidelity), featuring two similar guitars: one with and one without this 'hiyaw', will put this
issue to bed quickly.
Perhaps a standard Fender or Gibson vs your custom guitars on a high quality recording is a good idea :-)
Post by: horge on August 01, 2015, 12:52:26 PM
Perhaps a standard Fender or Gibson vs your custom guitars on a high quality recording is a good idea :-)
Eh kaso nga, parang hindi audial lang ang phenomenon, pero emotional daw (through non-audial stimuli?),
kasi he's already talking about the "heart", and "feelings".
Alex, let me try to illustrate the difficulty you are placing me in.
Bear with me, ha? Puyat ako, but I'll attempt to do it via a humorous analogy, para hindi masiadong serioso:
What if you were the victim of a heinous crime like, i don't know, sexual assault using an unwashed vegetable,
and the police wanted you to describe the assailant, kasi nga they NEED to know --in terms they could usefully
understand-- what your assailant looks like, so they can arrest him for abusing you and (because I am so sure
there are plant-hugging liberals out there, reading this) the vegetable as well.
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Mr. Alex, I'm so sorry for your ordeal, but could try to describe your assailant?
Alex: It's hard to describe what my attacker looked like, but My God, the feeling... it hits the heart and inspires...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Uhm, perhaps try to start with whether it was a man or a woman?
Alex: I can't describe it in those terms, Officer... it was the experience that was distinctive... parang I cannot
stop playing the whole day...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: *cough* What about height, sir? Weight? Sound of the assailant's voice? Maybe even smell?
Alex: Again, I cannot describe in those terms, officer... You'd relate, only if you would experience it yourself...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Sir, you need to put that vegetable down, sir **draws sidearm, releases safety**....
Alex: You'll feel it in your heart, I swear, officer....
...which sordid example brings me to the crucial point. Even if PO1 Walanghiyaw receives the same botanically
based sensation courtesy of Mr. Al... he'd only be able to better-identify the vegetable, not the assailant. It's
someone else in the assailant role, just as it would be someone else (not you or anyone else on this forum)
making a hypothetical visit-and-listen to wherever-it-is-you-keep-your-guitars.
As you claim that Arie Hipolito pointed out, not everyone can perceive what you claim is universal ("hiyaw").
If I were to accept your invite...
I wouldn't be hearing your guitars with your ears, nor would anyone else on this forum be hearing with mine
(if they were to accept your invitation to hear your guitars out). Or, even if I did perceive what YOU call 'hiyaw',
I might recognize it as an already-established phenomenon and ignore it, kasi I'm supposed to be listening for
something previously-undescribed.
My testimony re: hiyaw wouldn't be universally-acceptable, kasi if others were to take the same 'test', they will
likely experience differently, or even if they experience the same, will report in different terms. Sabi mo, most
here don't even understand "bass", "treble", etc. Reporting is important, kasi practicality-wise: not everyone
here has the time, ability, or the GAF to visit you. That's why reviews are useful, but reviews still depend on
common-reference terminology, which you say is widely misunderstood.
If the reviewer is not guaranteed to be capable of hearing so-called hiyaw, and doesn't know what to listen for
(because you can't seem to describe it), and furthermore cannot even use common-reference terms correctly,
... e ano pa ang pakinabang namin sa kanyang review/report?
Iba-iba tayo ng kakayahan perception-wise, granted.
Iba-iba rin tayo ng binibigyang-halaga, o hilig, and not all those who might report perceiving ..."something"
will automatically find it as desirable as you say.
Post by: qroon on August 01, 2015, 01:32:34 PM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
Perhaps a standard Fender or Gibson vs your custom guitars on a high quality recording is a good idea :-)
My SG is a Gibson USA and not a Historic for the simple reason that it sounds better than a lot of other Historic SGs.
Post by: royc on August 01, 2015, 01:51:44 PM
My SG is a Gibson USA and not a Historic for the simple reason that it sounds better than a lot of other Historic SGs.
How about a flac recording of your SG and another Gibson SG?
Post by: royc on August 01, 2015, 01:53:00 PM
I know that similar to audiophiles, alex doesn't believe in youtube clips, but for me, this is my standard for that elusive tone that I have in my mind:
He can record in flac. Surely that should satisfy most audiophiles :-)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 02:11:29 PM
Eh kaso nga, parang hindi audial lang ang phenomenon, pero emotional daw (through non-audial stimuli?),
kasi he's already talking about the "heart", and "feelings".
Alex, let me try to illustrate the difficulty you are placing me in.
Bear with me, ha? Puyat ako, but I'll attempt to do it via a humorous analogy, para hindi masiadong serioso:
What if you were the victim of a heinous crime like, i don't know, sexual assault using an unwashed vegetable,
and the police wanted you to describe the assailant, kasi nga they NEED to know --in terms they could usefully
understand-- what your assailant looks like, so they can arrest him for abusing you and (because I am so sure
there are plant-hugging liberals out there, reading this) the vegetable as well.
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Mr. Alex, I'm so sorry for your ordeal, but could try to describe your assailant?
Alex: It's hard to describe what my attacker looked like, but My God, the feeling... it hits the heart and inspires...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Uhm, perhaps try to start with whether it was a man or a woman?
Alex: I can't describe it in those terms, Officer... it was the experience that was distinctive... parang I cannot
stop playing the whole day...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: *cough* What about height, sir? Weight? Sound of the assailant's voice? Maybe even smell?
Alex: Again, I cannot describe in those terms, officer... You'd relate, only if you would experience it yourself...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Sir, you need to put that vegetable down, sir **draws sidearm, releases safety**....
Alex: You'll feel it in your heart, I swear, officer....
...which sordid example brings me to the crucial point. Even if PO1 Walanghiyaw receives the same botanically
based sensation courtesy of Mr. Al... he'd only be able to better-identify the vegetable, not the assailant. It's
someone else in the assailant role, just as it would be someone else (not you or anyone else on this forum)
making a hypothetical visit-and-listen to wherever-it-is-you-keep-your-guitars.
I THINK THE BETTER ANALOGY IS THE GIRL WHO GIVES THE BEST ORAL SEX IN TOWN. EVERYONE KNOWS AND FEELS IT BUT CANNOT DESCRIBE IT. I APOLOGIZE TO GIRLS READING THIS POST.
I DID TRY TO GIVE THE KARE KARE EXAMPLE ABOVE BUT APPARENTLY HORGE IS PUYAT. ACTUALLY, SLEEP DEPRIVATION CAUSES SUPPRESSED SEXUAL NEEDS TO SURFACE. JOKE LANG.
As you claim that Arie Hipolito pointed out, not everyone can perceive what you claim is universal ("hiyaw").
JUST BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE CAN PERCEIVE IT DOES NOT MEAN IT DOES NOT EXIST. IN FACT, THIS IS WHERE I DEFER WITH ARIE THAT A GREAT MAJORITY CAN PERCEIVE HIYAW. OF COURSE, I BEING AN OPTIMIST.
If I were to accept your invite...
I wouldn't be hearing your guitars with your ears, nor would anyone else on this forum be hearing with mine
I THINK THAT WAS POINT, YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE MY EARS TO HEAR IT BECAUSE ITS NOT IN MY EARS... ITS IN MY GUITARS.
(if they were to accept your invitation to hear your guitars out). Or, even if I did perceive what YOU call
'hiyaw', I might recognize it as an already-established phenomenon and ignore it, kasi nga I'm supposed to
be listening for something previously-undescribed.
IF YOU RECOGNIZE IT THAN THATS GREAT BECAUSE YOU CAN GIVE ME A NAME TO IT AND WE CAN HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON TO TALK ABOUT MORE.
My testimony re: hiyaw wouldn't be universally-acceptable, kasi if others were to take the same 'test', they will
likely experience differently, or even if they experience the same, will report in different terms. Sabi mo, most
here don't even understand "bass", "treble", etc. Reporting is important, kasi practicality-wise: not everyone
here has the time, ability, or the GAF to visit you. That's why reviews are useful, but reviews still depend on
common-reference terminology.
ARE REVIEWS REALLY USEFUL? FOR THE PAST TEN YEARS, I HAVE SUBSCRIBED TO GUITAR WORLD AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE ACTUAL SOUND OF THEIR REVIEW SOUNDS LIKE. LATER ON THEY DECIDED TO PUT VIDEO CLIPS WHEN THE INTERNET BASE EXPANDED.
BUT IF I TEST WHAT THEY REVIEW IN THE STORE SOMETIMES ITS CLOSE BUT MOST OF THE TIME DIFFERENT.
A JAPANESE FRIEND OF MINE TOLD ME THIS ABOUT AN AMP: THE GUY WHO DID THE REVIEW HAS SOMETHING TO SAY, YOUR FRIEND HAS SOMETHING TO SAY, YOUR FAVORITE ARTIST HAS SOMETHING, YOUR FORUM HAS SOMETHING TO SAY AND THE ONLY ONE WITHOUT SOMETHING TO SAY IS YOU.
HE GOT SO FED UP AND THE NEXT DAY HE BOUGHT A DUMBLE OVERDRIVE SPECIAL AND FORMED HIS OWNED OPINION AFTER OWNING IT.
Although what some might like is for you to allow someone (who can better express themselves) to "take the
test" with your guitars, and report back... malabo pa rin yan, meyn, kasi nga, you cannot describe to the guy
what he's supposed to be listening out for. What you claim Arie said will also apply, and furthermore there is
your claim that even common-reference terms are widely misunderstood.
MY POINT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT ON THE MOST BASIC LEVEL, I OPTIMISTICALLY BELIEVE IT CAN BE HEARD. BY THE WAY, IT WAS ARIE WHO TAUGHT ME HIYAW. SO IT CAN BE TRANSFERRED.
YOU CAN ASK HIM -- THAT MY LAST 3 PURCHASES IN THE PAST 18 MONTHS WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE OR LETTING HIM HEAR IT BEFORE BUYING HAVE HIYAW.
IN FACT, ARIE BELIEVES IN MY CONSISTENCY IN PICKING OUT GUITARS WITH HIYAW WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE. EVEN AT THAT, HIRAP SI MISMONG ARIE MAMILI WITHOUT REFERENCE.
If the reviewer is not guranteed to be capable of hearing so-called hiyaw, and doesn't know what to listen for
(because you can't seem to describe it), and furthermore cannot even use common-reference terms correctly,
... e ano pa ang pakinabang namin sa kanyang review/report?
AGREE AKO THATS WHY I ENCOURAGE YOU TO EXPERIENCE IT. NOONG TINURO NI ARIE SA AKIN ANG HIYAW, HINDI SIYA NAGSULAT NG ARTICLE PARA MATUTO KO. DINEMO NIYA NG BUONG HAPON SA AKIN AND THATS HOW I LEARNT. THE OTHER IMPORTANT FACTOR WAS THE ARRIVAL OF MY BAKER FIREMODEL55 WHICH DISPLAYS THE MOST HIYAW OF MY GUITARS.
I WAS JUST LUCKY TO GET USED TO THAT GUITAR.
Iba-iba tayo ng kakayahan perception-wise, granted.
Iba-iba rin tayo ng binibigyang-halaga, o hilig, and not all those who might report perceiving ..."something"
will automatically find it desirable.
SOME MAY LIKE SUSTAIN OTHERS WON'T. THATS WHY I HAVE SEVERAL LES PAUL TYPE GUITARS AND A 335. SOME LIKE HUMBUCKERS AND OTHERS SINGLE COILS. THATS WHY I HAVE A STRAT AND A TELE ALONG WITH P90s EQUIPPED BAKER#41.
BUT ONE THING THESE GUITARS HAVE IN COMMON IS THEIR ABILITY na HUMIYAW AND BE FUN AND TRULY INSPIRING INSTRUMENTS TO PLAY. NOW, I DON'T KNOW OF ANYONE WHO DOES NOT LIKE TO PLAY A FUN AND INSPIRING GUITAR.
Post by: horge on August 01, 2015, 03:04:57 PM
I DID TRY TO GIVE THE KARE KARE EXAMPLE ABOVE BUT APPARENTLY HORGE IS PUYAT.
I saw the kare-kare analogy, but the logical flaw remains:
Not everyone likes kare-kare, and those who do may like kare-kare for very different reasons/flavors.
If their reasons for liking kare-kare don't include the flavor/quality you're touting (hiyaw, in kare-kare terms),
then all your talk about universality falls flat, kasi subjective pala.
That's even presuming the flavor you're touting as rare and previously-undescribed even exists, or if it does,
that it can be discerned by tasters as a rare and previously-undescribed flavor.
IF YOU RECOGNIZE IT THAN THATS GREAT BECAUSE YOU CAN GIVE ME A NAME TO IT AND WE CAN HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON.
Same as above...
I might recognize a bunch of things, possibly including what you call hiyaw... but fail to recognize it as hiyaw.
Kasi, you seem to be saying only you and Arie know what hiyaw is; and I'm saying that if it exists, I may know it
as something else. If you ask me to listen out for "something previously-undescribed", I'll report nothing found,
because nga, to me it is previously-described. In that situation, why should I single out any one of several audial
qualities I will have perceived, for further discussion as your so-called 'hiyaw'?
You have to provide some useful description of what to listen out for, to narrow down the inquiry.
You also have to provide a practicable sample-experience of the same, and you have: albeit one that can only
accommodate one person (or a few) at a time, and is more hassle than my downloading a lossless recording and
playing it back in hi-fi: you could have hundreds trying it out, instead of just a handful, every day.
This is become circuitous/recursive, Alex... but maybe someone can produce a breakthrough.
In any case, I'mma take my nap now.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 04:11:29 PM
I saw the kare-kare analogy, but the logical flaw remains:
Not everyone likes kare-kare, and those who do may like kare-kare for very different reasons/flavors.
If their reasons for liking kare-kare don't include the flavor/quality you're touting (hiyaw, in kare-kare terms),
then all your talk about universality falls flat, kasi subjective pala.
That's even presuming the flavor you're touting as rare and previously-undescribed even exists, or if it does,
that it can be discerned by tasters as a rare and previously-undescribed flavor.
Same as above...
I might recognize a bunch of things, possibly including what you call hiyaw... but fail to recognize it as hiyaw.
(And that is why I have 15 guitars to show you what hiyaw is.)
Kasi, you seem to be saying only you and Arie know what hiyaw is;
(Others have heard and know it.)
and I'm saying that if it exists, I may know it
as something else.
(Agree.)
If you ask me to listen out for "something previously-undescribed", I'll report nothing found,
because nga, to me it is previously-described.
(That is why I have the Charvel without Hiyaw.)
In that situation, why should I single out any one of several audial
qualities I will have perceived, for further discussion as your so-called 'hiyaw'?
(Because there will be a difference, unless you cannot hear it -- a possibility you brought up.)
You have to provide some useful description of what to listen out for, to narrow down the inquiry.
You also have to provide a practicable sample-experience of the same, and you have: albeit one that can only
accommodate one person (or a few) at a time, and is more hassle than my downloading a lossless recording and
playing it back in hi-fi: you could have hundreds trying it out, instead of just a handful, every day.
(As I said before, Part of Hiyaw is felt.)
This is become circuitous/recursive, Alex... but maybe someone can produce a breakthrough.
In any case, I'mma take my nap now.
(If I can learn it without having to go thru your requirement and back then without a lossless recording, why not experience it for yourself? Its difficult enough to find 15 guitars with hiyaw while having a recording capture tactile feel is quite impossible. Para kang nagcommunicate ng Orgasm thru a porn film and expecting a virgin to understand it fully.
If being hassled is your excuse to continue asking me questions, then recursive we shall be.)
Post by: officebiker on August 01, 2015, 04:16:34 PM
Eh kaso nga, parang hindi audial lang ang phenomenon, pero emotional daw (through non-audial stimuli?),
kasi he's already talking about the "heart", and "feelings".
Alex, let me try to illustrate the difficulty you are placing me in.
Bear with me, ha? Puyat ako, but I'll attempt to do it via a humorous analogy, para hindi masiadong serioso:
What if you were the victim of a heinous crime like, i don't know, sexual assault using an unwashed vegetable,
and the police wanted you to describe the assailant, kasi nga they NEED to know --in terms they could usefully
understand-- what your assailant looks like, so they can arrest him for abusing you and (because I am so sure
there are plant-hugging liberals out there, reading this) the vegetable as well.
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Mr. Alex, I'm so sorry for your ordeal, but could try to describe your assailant?
Alex: It's hard to describe what my attacker looked like, but My God, the feeling... it hits the heart and inspires...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Uhm, perhaps try to start with whether it was a man or a woman?
Alex: I can't describe it in those terms, Officer... it was the experience that was distinctive... parang I cannot
stop playing the whole day...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: *cough* What about height, sir? Weight? Sound of the assailant's voice? Maybe even smell?
Alex: Again, I cannot describe in those terms, officer... You'd relate, only if you would experience it yourself...
PO1 Walanghiyaw: Sir, you need to put that vegetable down, sir **draws sidearm, releases safety**....
Alex: You'll feel it in your heart, I swear, officer....
...which sordid example brings me to the crucial point. Even if PO1 Walanghiyaw receives the same botanically
based sensation courtesy of Mr. Al... he'd only be able to better-identify the vegetable, not the assailant. It's
someone else in the assailant role, just as it would be someone else (not you or anyone else on this forum)
making a hypothetical visit-and-listen to wherever-it-is-you-keep-your-guitars.
As you claim that Arie Hipolito pointed out, not everyone can perceive what you claim is universal ("hiyaw").
If I were to accept your invite...
I wouldn't be hearing your guitars with your ears, nor would anyone else on this forum be hearing with mine
(if they were to accept your invitation to hear your guitars out). Or, even if I did perceive what YOU call 'hiyaw',
I might recognize it as an already-established phenomenon and ignore it, kasi I'm supposed to be listening for
something previously-undescribed.
My testimony re: hiyaw wouldn't be universally-acceptable, kasi if others were to take the same 'test', they will
likely experience differently, or even if they experience the same, will report in different terms. Sabi mo, most
here don't even understand "bass", "treble", etc. Reporting is important, kasi practicality-wise: not everyone
here has the time, ability, or the GAF to visit you. That's why reviews are useful, but reviews still depend on
common-reference terminology, which you say is widely misunderstood.
If the reviewer is not guaranteed to be capable of hearing so-called hiyaw, and doesn't know what to listen for
(because you can't seem to describe it), and furthermore cannot even use common-reference terms correctly,
... e ano pa ang pakinabang namin sa kanyang review/report?
Iba-iba tayo ng kakayahan perception-wise, granted.
Iba-iba rin tayo ng binibigyang-halaga, o hilig, and not all those who might report perceiving ..."something"
will automatically find it as desirable as you say.
Does this post come in black? Id like one laminated and hanging on my wall.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 01, 2015, 04:29:24 PM
Post by: analog.matt on August 01, 2015, 05:06:39 PM
1. many have visited Firemodel at his place.
2. many have discovered that "Hiyaw" is not solely found on Alex's guitars, but in their guitars as well (to varying degrees)
3. many have discovered that they have very good guitars din pala, but despite having guitars above average...
...mataas talaga level ng mga guitars ni Alex. they're on top of above average....or maybe two levels above that pa.
you've have to give credit to a guy who spends time and money hunting all these guitars. frequenting different countries and difference shops pa lang is financially straining for many of us. so isipin na lang natin yung probability na talagang mahanap niya yung gusto niyang hanapin. kung may tiyaga, may nilaga.
Post by: royc on August 01, 2015, 10:26:55 PM
Have you guys wondered why neck profile is so difficult to communicate over the net? Because the mind is limited in trying to construct something 3 dimensional over a flat 2 dimensional screen. Neck Profile has to be experienced. The same thing with hiyaw. It has to ALSO be felt and not just heard.
Only musicians care about the instruments. Listeners only care about what they hear (and see, if it is a live band).
Why spend big money for something that you cannot share with your audience? Paying for playability is fine, but for hiyaw that should not be just heard then why bother?
Post by: horge on August 02, 2015, 05:54:45 AM
If I can learn it without having to go thru your requirement and back then without a lossless recording, why not experience it for yourself?
If being hassled is your excuse to continue asking me questions, then recursive we shall be. (emphasis mine)
:wink:
My excuse to continue asking you questions, Alex?
I only asked two questions that weren't rhetorical, and only in my first post.
It would help you understand my context if you re-read what I posted earlier:
To be clear, I have no trouble believing that YOU believe.
Why should I care what another person believes, if it doesn't harm me?
I'm not posting here to determine whether your "hiyaw" exists or not, because I don't care that much.
Instead, I began posting about how you could improve the manner in which you preach about "hiyaw".
The reason is that it, and reactions to it, are disruptive to other threads (Rizal Luthier the most recent).
I offered you advice, and you've read it.
Somehow the focus has shifted into describing a proper test for "hiyaw", and again, while I appreciate
anyone's invitation to their space, I'm not really interested in determining whether your "hiyaw" exists,
because I don't care that much (you should be familiar with how contemplating impending mortality can
change one's priorities). What I am offering, wrt "testing for so-called hiyaw" is again advice on how to
make it easier or better --to the object AGAIN that a definitive, properly-constructed test will help to limit
disruptive "hiyaw" arguments derailing so many threads.
I'll recap my input and add some more (because if I didn't have more helpful advice, I'd not keep posting):
-More people could test for hiyaw if it could could be tested in a downloadable, lossless recording.
It's too bad that you now indicate that your so-called "hiyaw" won't transmit over ANY sound file.
-You shouldn't create bias by announcing which guitar has "hiyaw" and which one hasn't, among
the guitars you let a volunteer tester play. By revealing early on that the ("crappy") Charvel is the
control, you've prejudiced volunteer testers towards NOT hearing anything special in the Charvel,
and to hearing "something" in the others. Blind for the win.
-A control should be as similar as possible in all respects to the actual samples,save for the quality
you want to test for. You don't need fifteen different guitars that you feel have "hiyaw". You only
need one, plus one or more of identical brand/model that you feel DON'T have "hiyaw". Have the
volunteer tester play them, no prompting as to which is which. (Afterwards, an experience --not a
test-- involving the rest of your 15 begins acquires more potential value).
Please reconsider your control sample, and especially divulging which guitar it actually is.
I'll end with a more relevant example than vegetable rape, so that I'm clearer.
If a volunteer tester has never owned /played a Les Paul, handing him a Les Paul with "hiyaw" is almost
useless as a test. Without prior experience with specimens lacking "hiyaw", he may reasonably assume
that all LP's are so, thus failing to distinguish the quality you want him to find. It's worse still if a
volunteer tester does own a Les Paul that just happens to already have "hiyaw": he'll try yours and say,
"there's nothing really special here, compared to what I've known. That is why you hand him an LP with
alleged "hiyaw", and a nearly identical one without".
Others have heard and know it.
1. many have visited Firemodel at his place.
2. many have discovered that "Hiyaw" is not solely found on Alex's guitars, but in their guitars as well (to varying degrees)
Their input, on this thread, could be helpful.
Perhaps they can provide a useful (or at least usefully-different) description of this so-called "hiyaw".
Even if their descriptions would be anecdotal/qualitative, meron pa ring value yun.
Kasi, at this point where I'm reading that "hiyaw" isn't just heard, is hard to describe in words, and has
to be experienced by playing the subject guitar... I suspect it can be lumped into another catch-all (and
fuzzy) term which I mentioned earlier: 'mojo'. Even "x-factor" might apply... in which case, well, if this new
term sticks in popular use, it'll stick. If not, then not.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 07:02:18 AM
Only musicians care about the instruments. Listeners only care about what they hear (and see, if it is a live band).
Why spend big money for something that you cannot share with your audience? Paying for playability is fine, but for hiyaw that should not be just heard then why bother?
Once when Arie and his band were asked to play at Conspiracy for fund raising gig. Just for kicks we decided to bring a Komet Aero 33 (US$4k), Cornell 18 watt combo (US$3k) and a Soldano SLO 100 (US$4k).
We were surprised when the audience was complementing Arie and his group big never heard Guitars sound so good ever at Conspiracy.
My point is that its ironic but the audience is first to hear good equipment specially amplification because its these amps that throws the sound waves to them first. When I ask my friends who do not patronize the club scene about why they do not watch more bands live,
unanimous ang statement nila: Sobrang lakas at ang sama ng tunog.
Roy C, Hiyaw can be heard live and with my amplification it is more obvious. That being said, hiyaw is also felt.
Post by: horge on August 02, 2015, 07:20:13 AM
-It can be heard by listeners, but only in a live playing context.
-It cannot be detected on recordings of any quality.
E, kung ganun, mukhang walang shortcut talaga.
I'll just implore you to keep up your progress in err, toning things down.
Cheers.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 08:48:32 AM
Once when Arie and his band were asked to play at Conspiracy for fund raising gig. Just for kicks we decided to bring a Komet Aero 33 (US$4k), Cornell 18 watt combo (US$3k) and a Soldano SLO 100 (US$4k).
We were surprised when the audience was complementing Arie and his group big never heard Guitars sound so good ever at Conspiracy.
My point is that its ironic but the audience is first to hear good equipment specially amplification because its these amps that throws the sound waves to them first. When I ask my friends who do not patronize the club scene about why they do not watch more bands live,
unanimous ang statement nila: Sobrang lakas at ang sama ng tunog.
Roy C, Hiyaw can be heard live and with my amplification it is more obvious. That being said, hiyaw is also felt.
There is no question that good amps can make a difference, both in live and recorded sound. Sound amplification is something I always I check when visiting a music venue.
I am doubtful about hiyaw in guitars though, specifically in your guitars vs properly set up amercan guitars, when played live.
Next time an audience praises your guitar, ask if he is a guitar player or just a listener. Chances are he/she is the former. The general audience listens to the music, but cannot tell the difference between a mid priced guitar and a very expensive guitar by listening, though they may be able to tell by the looks.
Post by: J_E_K_A on August 02, 2015, 09:39:44 AM
Have you guys wondered why neck profile is so difficult to communicate over the net? Because the mind is limited in trying to construct something 3 dimensional over a flat 2 dimensional screen. Neck Profile has to be experienced. The same thing with hiyaw. It has to ALSO be felt and not just heard.
I Agree to this one....Neck Profile has to be experienced.....
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 10:49:17 AM
There is no question that good amps can make a difference, both in live and recorded sound. Sound amplification is something I always I check when visiting a music venue.
I am doubtful about hiyaw in guitars though, specifically in your guitars vs properly set up amercan guitars, when played live.
Next time an audience praises your guitar, ask if he is a guitar player or just a listener. Chances are he/she is the former. The general audience listens to the music, but cannot tell the difference between a mid priced guitar and a very expensive guitar by listening, though they may be able to tell by the looks.
I once bought a guitar (still with me), MIJ super strat, with broken pickups (no signal), rusted old strings that don't intonate and cheap Floyd rose copy bridge. Using the one available string without set up or amplification, I was able to determine it had hiyaw.
With regards to the other point, they can tell because it sounds so good to their ears and they are just listeners who don't play guitar. In fact pa nga, ang non guitar player pa ang mas nag compliment sa talagang magandang guitar tone dahil sanay sila sa maraming masamang tunog na gitara sa Pinas.
Ang gitarista pa nga ang mas tolerant sa panget na tunog na gitara dahil iyon lang talaga ang affordable.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 10:51:16 AM
I Agree to this one....Neck Profile has to be experienced.....
Topic is about guitar tone, not neck profile.
Humans have five senses:
1. To hear the tone, we use our ears. For others to hear the tone, a lossless recording played on a hifi stereo system would suffice. In a controlled environment (no noise, perfectly positioned speakers, and good room acoustics) you can hear the slightest detail in both recorded and live music. In a live gig, these subtle details will be buried by the other instruments and audience noise. In a live situation, people listen to the music, not the individual instruments, unless it is a solo.
2. To appreciate playability we use our sense of touch and feel. Neck profile is about playability. There is no way to judge the tone by using our sense of touch or feel, unless you can identify a good tone by feeling the vibrations of the wood without hearing it. If you say that hiyaw should be experienced then you are not talking about tone.
3. Our eyes can only see the cosmetics of a guitar. It cannnot judge the tone just by looking. It is an acceptable fact though that expensive guitars look better than budget guitars.
4. Our sense of smell is not used to identify tone, unless we can smell a good guitar.
5. Unless you eat guitars, we do not use our sense of taste to identify a good sounding guitar.
That said, tone is a combination of skill, guitar, effects, amp, and sound reinforcement (PA). When choosing a guitar, we use our sense of hearing, touch, and sight, depending on our priority.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 10:53:00 AM
I once bought a guitar (still with me), MIJ super strat, with broken pickups (no signal), rusted old strings that don't intonate and cheap Floyd rose copy bridge. Using the one available string without set up or amplification, I was able to determine it had hiyaw.
With regards to the other point, they can tell because it sounds so good to their ears and they are just listeners who don't play guitar. In fact pa nga, ang non guitar player pa ang mas nag compliment sa talagang magandang guitar tone dahil sanay sila sa maraming masamang tunog na gitara sa Pinas.
Ang gitarista pa nga ang mas tolerant sa panget na tunog na gitara dahil iyon lang talaga ang affordable.
Did the next band use the same amps? If yes, did their guitars sound the same or better?
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 10:54:54 AM
Did the next band use the same amps? If yes, did their guitars sound the same or better?
There was no next band...
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 11:02:19 AM
Topic is about guitar tone, not neck profile.
(I think the analogy on neck profile was meant to show you that there are realities related to guitar that cannot be completely communicated via downloads)
Humans have five senses:
1. To hear the tone, we use our ears. For others to hear the tone, a lossless recording played on a hifi stereo system would suffice. In a controlled environment (no noise, perfectly positioned speakers, and good room acoustics) you can hear the slightest detail in both recorded and live music. In a live gig, these subtle details will be buried by the other instruments and audience noise. In a live situation, people listen to the music, not the individual instruments, unless it is a solo.
( Kaso may music na maganda ang tunog ng gitara at may music na may masakit ang gitara -- which is the majority)
2. To appreciate playability we use our sense of touch and feel. (Which is one aspect that can be communicated by a recording or pictures over the internet.) Neck profile is about playability. There is no way to judge the tone by using our sense of touch or feel, unless you can identify a good tone by feeling the vibrations of the wood without hearing it. If you say that hiyaw should be experienced then you are not talking about tone.
( If you mean 'tone' to mean timbre then that's true if you have a dead sounding guitar. If I mean 'tone' to mean something else in a guitar, feel is part of it. For guitars that sound great in terms of timbre, did you ever feel more inspired playing that specific instrument? )
3. Our eyes can only see the cosmetics of a guitar. It cannnot judge the tone just by looking. It is an acceptable fact though that expensive guitars look better than budget guitars.
4. Our sense of smell is not used to identify tone, unless we can smell a good guitar.
5. Unless you eat guitars, we do not use our sense of taste to identify a good sounding guitar.
That said, tone is a combination of skill, guitar, effects, amp, and sound reinforcement (PA). (I call that timbre but a guitar is more than just timbre) When choosing a guitar, we use our sense of hearing, touch, and sight, depending on our priority. (Very true but like in anything in life some choose better than others.)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 11:05:53 AM
Ah, so it isn't limited to the player's experience.
-It can be heard by listeners, but only in a live playing context.
-It cannot be detected on recordings of any quality.
E, kung ganun, mukhang walang shortcut talaga.
I'll just implore you to keep up your progress in err, toning things down.
Cheers.
Good morning pala. Galing lang ako palengke. In all fairness kung magaling ang mag rerecord, maririnig siguro ang expression ng hiyaw but to experience it fully it needs to be felt.
For example, it is easy to record and pickup guitar sustain but to feel the sustain is a different matter all together.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 11:08:56 AM
There was no next band...
What guitar were used on those amps? Do you believe that other guitars would have sounded better on your amps if there was another band?
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 11:18:49 AM
-- We just want to hear the hiyaw in your guitar without going to your place. We are not interested in playing your guitar, just hear it as an audience. A lossless recording would suffice for that.
( Kaso may music na maganda ang tunog ng gitara at may music na may masakit ang gitara -- which is the majority)
-- We are talking about subtle differences between a mid vs a high end guitars in a live gig using the same good amps. It is unfair to compare a cheap guitar with an expensive one.
( If you mean 'tone' to mean timbre then that's true if you have a dead sounding guitar. If I mean 'tone' to mean something else in a guitar, feel is part of it. For guitars that sound great in terms of timbre, did you ever feel more inspired playing that specific instrument? )
-- We are not comparing a dead sounding guitar to an expensive guitar coz that is an unfair comparison. I am referring to a good, mid-priced guitar that is properly set up and and a high end guitar.
Feeling and hearing use two different senses. Can you honestly judge a guitar's tone or timbre just by feeling it?
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 11:38:48 AM
What guitar were used on those amps? Do you believe that other guitars would have sounded better on your amps if there was another band?
Depends. If they used a 68 plexi, a dumble Overdrive and a trainwreck, they might have sounded better.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 11:43:04 AM
(I think the analogy on neck profile was meant to show you that there are realities related to guitar that cannot be completely communicated via downloads)
-- We just want to hear the hiyaw in your guitar without going to your place. We are not interested in playing your guitar, just hear it as an audience. A lossless recording would suffice for that.
WELL I SUGGEST YOU FIND SOMEBODY AND PAY HIM TO RECORD IT FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE.
( Kaso may music na maganda ang tunog ng gitara at may music na may masakit ang gitara -- which is the majority)
-- We are talking about subtle differences between a mid vs a high end guitars in a live gig using the same good amps. It is unfair to compare a cheap guitar with an expensive one.
MAY PANGET NA MID END AT HIGH END GUITAR. SO BETWEEN A PANGET NA HIGH END GUITAR AT MAGANDANG HIGH END GUITAR; MALAKI PA RIN ANG DIFFERENCE.
( If you mean 'tone' to mean timbre then that's true if you have a dead sounding guitar. If I mean 'tone' to mean something else in a guitar, feel is part of it. For guitars that sound great in terms of timbre, did you ever feel more inspired playing that specific instrument? )
-- We are not comparing a dead sounding guitar to an expensive guitar coz that is an unfair comparison. I am referring to a good, mid-priced guitar that is properly set up and and a high end guitar.
I WAS COMPARING A DEAD SOUNDING GUITAR TO A GUITAR WITH HIYAW. I NEVER MENTIONED PRICE.
Feeling and hearing use two different senses. Can you honestly judge a guitar's tone or timbre just by feeling it?
SURPRISINGLY, I USE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.
Forgive me for using ALL CAPS, para mas makita ang reply ko.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 12:09:54 PM
Depends. If they used a 68 plexi, a dumble Overdrive and a trainwreck, they might have sounded better.
Then we both agree that a non high-end guitar will sound good on a good amp.
Post by: J_E_K_A on August 02, 2015, 12:22:32 PM
Topic is about guitar tone, not neck profile.
Humans have five senses:
1. To hear the tone, we use our ears. For others to hear the tone, a lossless recording played on a hifi stereo system would suffice. In a controlled environment (no noise, perfectly positioned speakers, and good room acoustics) you can hear the slightest detail in both recorded and live music. In a live gig, these subtle details will be buried by the other instruments and audience noise. In a live situation, people listen to the music, not the individual instruments, unless it is a solo.
2. To appreciate playability we use our sense of touch and feel. Neck profile is about playability. There is no way to judge the tone by using our sense of touch or feel, unless you can identify a good tone by feeling the vibrations of the wood without hearing it. If you say that hiyaw should be experienced then you are not talking about tone.
3. Our eyes can only see the cosmetics of a guitar. It cannnot judge the tone just by looking. It is an acceptable fact though that expensive guitars look better than budget guitars.
4. Our sense of smell is not used to identify tone, unless we can smell a good guitar.
5. Unless you eat guitars, we do not use our sense of taste to identify a good sounding guitar.
That said, tone is a combination of skill, guitar, effects, amp, and sound reinforcement (PA). When choosing a guitar, we use our sense of hearing, touch, and sight, depending on our priority.
I know the topic is about guitar tone I just want to mention that..."I Agree to this one....Neck Profile has to be experienced....." that's all no more no less
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 12:39:56 PM
-- You claim that you have the best sounding guitars in the Philippines. To prove your claim we, the online community, need to listen to your guitar via a lossless recording. You refuse to create a recording and ask me to pay for it. Sorry, but the burden of proof rests on you, without which your claim is just that--a claim.
MAY PANGET NA MID END AT HIGH END GUITAR. SO BETWEEN A PANGET NA HIGH END GUITAR AT MAGANDANG HIGH END GUITAR; MALAKI PA RIN ANG DIFFERENCE.
-- We are not comparing panget guitars. We are talking about good guitars, properly set up, whose difference are only the price.
I WAS COMPARING A DEAD SOUNDING GUITAR TO A GUITAR WITH HIYAW. I NEVER MENTIONED PRICE.
-- Most dead sounding guitars are in the lower price range, I believe.
SURPRISINGLY, I USE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME
-- You must be a super human to judge a guitar's tone by its feel. Us mortals use our ears to judge the sound, and our feel to judge the playability. The only way you can claim to use both ears and feel to judge a tone is if you can use one without the other in judging.
I rest my case. I am just a mortal to judge you :-)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 01:20:27 PM
Then we both agree that a non high-end guitar will sound good on a good amp.
Let me qualify: A high end guitar will sound better than a non high end guitar on a good amp.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 01:40:37 PM
Let me qualify: A high end guitar will sound better than a non high end guitar on a good amp.
I expect this to be the case. However, I am wondering if the difference in tone is proportional to the price difference to justify the added cost. A shootout between your high end guitar and a properly set up american guitar of the same model, recorded in lossless audio and played on a hifi stereo, can demonstrate this. Unfortunately, that will not happen anytime soon coz no one wants to pay for the cost :-)
Post by: 7string_highway on August 02, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
In my experience upon comparing it to my other guitars and friends guitars (jackson, washburn, fender strat, Gibson SG) there something about the ESP especially how the notes decays and how it rings and sustains mas halata xa once I plugged it in my Mesa Boogie Electradyne lalo na sa clean settings and mild dirt. I used to play some descent sounding guitars which I thought will suffice my needs and having a boutique quality of dirt boxes and plugged in a lot of solid state amps in the stage (usual suspect mashall MG, Peavy , Laney) which is more than enough than the average joe kasi the main concern of the band is the performance and for a long time that's my mindset. My perspective change when I experienced plugging my ESP to a Mesa but for me I'm more particular on the amp than the guitar, a not so great sounding guitar can sound passable/descent if the amplification is top notch than a guitar w/ hiyaw plugged in a crappy amp. But if you can have both a guitar w/ hiyaw and a great sounding amp then that's tonal bliss and the big part of the equitation is you and your technique. To wrap things some people just can't hear hiyaw its like having a perfect pitch and trying to describe to another person what you are hearing though some people can hear it but in just varying degrees.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 02:51:38 PM
Post by: 7string_highway on August 02, 2015, 03:00:55 PM
Post by: acidtest on August 02, 2015, 04:40:37 PM
Seems we're more interested in the 'magical' brush than the Mona Lisa. I don't think we can measure magic. If it actually exist, then maybe...
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 04:41:02 PM
I stated it plugged or unplugged yes you can feel and hear that said hiyaw or what ever way you call it. Ito nalang if some of you haven't experienced the hiyaw kind of things just ask alex to go to his house I think he do some invitation some forumer here have done the visit and stated its an educational experience though I haven't been there in his place. Hiyaw must be experienced and hear in person there's a reason an LP'59 a sought after guitar (holy grail) due to some of its qualities there are a lot of recording on that particular guitar and most of the people who have experienced plugging one will say you have to feel and experienced to real thing to know its mojo that same analogy applies to the HIYAW kind of thing.
You mean you can tell if an electric guitar has a good tone by feel, even without hearing it play?
By you and Alex's explanations, it appears that hiyaw is the experience you get by being there when a guitar with good tone is played live in front of you. I believe it is the same feeling you get when watching your favorite band play live vs listening to the records.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 06:55:12 PM
Strange world we live in...
Seems we're more interested in the 'magical' brush than the Mona Lisa. I don't think we can measure magic. If it actually exist, then maybe...
Because the 'magical' brush is an important aspect of the artist -- specially guitar players. Eh kung ganoon lang pala na walang magic sa gitara, mag vocals ka na lang.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 02, 2015, 07:25:38 PM
I expect this to be the case. However, I am wondering if the difference in tone is proportional to the price difference to justify the added cost. A shootout between your high end guitar and a properly set up american guitar of the same model, recorded in lossless audio and played on a hifi stereo, can demonstrate this. Unfortunately, that will not happen anytime soon coz no one wants to pay for the cost :-)
The Marginal Utility over the Marginal Cost is irrelevant and NOT Important with regards to sound. Otherwise known as Bang for the Buck or Value for Money.
Its a Marketing Gimmick used by product managers to make you buy a clearly inferior or lower priced product. Bang for Buck is ONLY real in the mind of the person who purchased the guitar.
In fact, Bang for Buck addresses your pocket (ability to finance) and not the sound of equipment.
For example, if I let the audience hear my US$10k Gil Yaron Les Paul Replica which are now loaded with an additional US$6k of 1959 PAFs they will clearly say its sounds far from a Greco that I picked out of the pier for around P10k.
In terms of Bang for Buck, the Greco has higher Bang for Buck but the Gil Yaron will sound far more better and pleasing.
Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that audience does not care how much a guitar costs only if it sounds bad or good? I will tell you that I rather the Gil Yaron with real PAFs.
The other factor affecting Bang for Buck is that it only exists at point of purchase or in the case of the example above -- after upgrading. Why so? A lot of guitars when launched usually have a TBA price or SRP.
We usually want to get to the street price or the cheapest price that dealers are willing to give after deciding the maximum amount they can shave off their margin. On the other hand, a simple pickup upgrade is a perfect example where in Bang for Buck assessment happens AFTER the pickups are loaded onto a guitar.
Even if a small 5% increase in sound quality is observed we still keep the pickups on the guitar until we find a buyer for it. I don't know of anybody who observes an improvement over the previous pickup set and reinstalls the inferior but superior Bang for the Buck pickup.
Its an efficiency equation that does not really serve the interest of the guitarist as proven in the following cases.
Case 1: Following the Superior Bang for Buck Formula - A Japanese Greco given to you by your uncle will win out versus a real 1959 burst sold to you for P100. The price of the Greco (numerator) does not matter because the denominator (your money spent was zero).
But somehow, we do know that the real burst is clearly the winner here.
Case 2: Let us follow the Yupangco / Perfect Pitch technique wherein they price ridiculously equivalent to American SRP plus shipping to Manila. After two to three years, that's the only time that they bring down the price the U.S. Street Price to the new U.S. model comes out at the same street pricing.
At two different points in time, we have two different Bang for Buck values. BUT the guitar that you really wanted still will sound the same the first time it arrived at Yupangco and three years later. If you truly stick by bang for the buck, you should be able to forecast when and what the maximum discount will be given before you can purchase.
Here is the kicker, iyon pala naka reserve na para sa kaibigan ng mga taga Yupangco pagkatapos ng tatlong taon.
Case 3: If we consider Clapton's Blackie and SRV's number One which are PRICELESS as numerators, any denominator or price to acquire will do. Naturally these guitars did command a lot of money at auction. But clearly if the owners or benefactor of the owners considered the Bang for Buck formula, they would not have sold it an auction for charity. Why?
Because the Bang for Buck formula says that their guitars will remain priceless forever and its value will increase over time.
The whole reason why I have a bad sounding Charvel is to be able to immediately do a shootout with my 15 other guitars (All of different Electronic Configurations, woods, hardware, scale length, body shape, weight, etc.) with hiyaw. No need to spend. Because I have to prove that this property is not design specific but rather wood specific.
Post by: 7string_highway on August 02, 2015, 07:52:22 PM
Also to the guy that says were more interested to the paint brush than monalisa dont forget that you have to have a topnotch paintbrush and topgrade paint to translate more clarity of your artistic ideas into the canvas let alone let your work to stand the test of time si leonardo pa hes more ahead of his time scientifically and artistically im sure he dont use a crappy paint, paint brush, canvas and frame when he made the monalisa hehehe. i know what you mean first and foremost you must have the chops and talent but the tools are as impt. As your skill set a great example of this are the shreeders of the 80's yes they have the skills and chops but sounds inferior tonewise compare to the tone of lets say guthrie govan or andy timmons. I'm a firm believer that talent and skills must be pritoterized first and foremost and when youre confident enough on that side of things the music you want to share must be presentable let alone listenable and what good way to convey your talent but to use stuff that can deliver. I know tone is subjective theres a lot of it to be discussed in forums and its fun when we learn from people that knows one just keep an open ear and mind para apply natin sa tone search natin.
Post by: royc on August 02, 2015, 10:54:09 PM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 03, 2015, 06:52:08 AM
Hearing the wood quality by strumming unplugged uses your ears; you do not feel it. What you feel is just the vibration of the wood.
Yeah but your left hand fingers are on the strings and bend the strings to feel the hiyaw. Though admittedly its harder to experience hiyaw unplugged; its more obvious on amplification.
Post by: KennyKen on August 03, 2015, 08:33:04 AM
More and more bands like Megadeth and Metallica are inclined on using the Axe FX on a live gig setting, because Pros really outweigh the Cons compared to a traditional set up
Post by: jm the mute on August 03, 2015, 09:12:39 AM
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/smart-news/problem-solved-the-egg-came-first-6910803/
itong guitar tone debate hindi pa.
Post by: J_E_K_A on August 03, 2015, 09:25:48 AM
Yeah but your left hand fingers are on the strings and bend the strings to feel the hiyaw. Though admittedly its harder to experience hiyaw unplugged; its more obvious on amplification.
...I think Sir Firemodel55 has a point here..."Yeah but your left hand fingers are on the strings and bend the strings to feel the hiyaw"
_____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ ______________
Sir 7string_highway also have a point..."Yes I can feel a guitar if its a good one or a dull once the moment you strum it even if its unplugged and hear its wood qualities" [Just by strumming you can sure pin-point the difference between a Lumanog vs a Martin (Right?) or a Chinese Fake Gibson / Fender from the real thing]..
Post by: 7string_highway on August 03, 2015, 11:07:53 AM
When it comes to hiyaw whatever term you call it, it is the culmination of all the aspects of the electric guitar and the main ingredient of it is the wood and once you plugged it in a very good pickup and amp it can translate it or enhanced it. To wrap things explaining what hiyaw is in a guitar is not enough you have to bark on that tone journey by yourself though there are people out there that can share its experience but if you yourself haven't experience it you owe it to your ear especially if your serious about your tone we can have a very critical discussion in this thread and its healthy but at the end of the day what matters is the music you create or cover w/ your band there's no replacement to that kind of feeling when you can move your audience in a gig. But we are guitarist right and often not we chase those tone in our head or our heroes and having a great sounding gear is a very big factor in a live performance especially that amp/drums in the room sound and its a diff. topic to discuss with.
Also those big names that are using those high end gear a.k.a axe fx and kemper those gears are very capable and can even match the properly mic traditional rig in a very big event coz you are relying your sound to be delivered via P.A and the level of convenient it brings compare to the traditional rig. Also those gears acts like a traditional amp the characteristics of your guitar will always be heared these gear are not your typical Digital Gear 10 years ago in which all your guitar sounds the same once you feed it to those modelers of the past. My living deals w/ software development and the Kemper alone having more than 500K lines of code and that's pretty kickass to write those lines of codes and delivers. Also If you are a gigging guitarist and not playing to those big stages then I'll always choose the traditional rig nothing beats amp in the room sound and feel.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 03, 2015, 11:22:21 AM
Well, We live in a revolutionary Amp Sim / Amp Sim hybrid age, Does Tone wood matter anymore?
More and more bands like Megadeth and Metallica are inclined on using the Axe FX on a live gig setting, because Pros really outweigh the Cons compared to a traditional set up
Yes because the Hiyaw does not come from the Axe FX it is 95% coming from the guitar. Amplification and some other stuff influence it to be more obvious by about 5%. It comes from tone wood that specifically harmonize with other pieces of tone wood on a guitar.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 03, 2015, 11:24:12 AM
yung chicken and egg debate na solve na...
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/smart-news/problem-solved-the-egg-came-first-6910803/
itong guitar tone debate hindi pa.
Actually wala ng debate. Mayroon naman talagang hiyaw. Ayaw lang tangapin ng iba. :)
Post by: j-sonic on August 03, 2015, 11:56:11 AM
Most people sanay na sa Parokya ni Edgar tone,or Siakol tone. Makarinig man ng gear demos,sa youtube lang.
Karamihan din ng mahilig sa gitara,kulang sa pera para maghanap pa ng magandang tone. Kokomti lang ang katulad mo Mr Firemodel na may passion at wallet para habulin ang tone. Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.
Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.
Post by: J_E_K_A on August 03, 2015, 12:03:39 PM
Yup,merong hiyaw. The issue is third world country lang ang Pinas. Kulang sa exposure sa guitar tone ang mga tao dahil limited lang ang musical genre diyan.
Most people sanay na sa Parokya ni Edgar tone,or Siakol tone. Makarinig man ng gear demos,sa youtube lang.
Karamihan din ng mahilig sa gitara,kulang sa pera para maghanap pa ng magandang tone. Kokomti lang ang katulad mo Mr Firemodel na may passion at wallet para habulin ang tone. Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.
Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.
+10000000000
Straight to the point!! You nailed it po
Post by: firemodel55 on August 03, 2015, 12:30:36 PM
Yup,merong hiyaw. The issue is third world country lang ang Pinas. Kulang sa exposure sa guitar tone ang mga tao dahil limited lang ang musical genre diyan.
Most people sanay na sa Parokya ni Edgar tone,or Siakol tone. Makarinig man ng gear demos,sa youtube lang.
Karamihan din ng mahilig sa gitara,kulang sa pera para maghanap pa ng magandang tone. Kokomti lang ang katulad mo Mr Firemodel na may passion at wallet para habulin ang tone. Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.
Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.
At least you are certainly worth my time. Kahit ilan kayo para maka tulong ako sa inyo.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 03, 2015, 12:39:21 PM
Its been sometime since I actually went out to the stores to look for great sounding guitars locally.
CONCEPT: As a group, we go to stores to try out a certain group of guitars. This is relatively new and the dynamics will be different. Its really an experiment on my part to determine how best to communicate hiyaw and how to help people identify if it is present in a guitar. I used to do it one on one but I think having a manageable small group might actually make it easier -- I hope. Also, I think a lot of you really want to buy guitars because they are cool and fun.
Group I: Japanese Guitars (New and Mint) -- Tokai , ESP, Ibanez Prestige
Group II: Fender Mexico (New and Mint)
Group III: Fender USA (non-custom shop)
Group IV: Gibson USA (non-custom shop)
If you are interested, sign up.
Post by: j-sonic on August 03, 2015, 12:42:24 PM
Yung music store ng kaibigan ko,may katagalan na ding nag-ooperate. Mga customers niya ay mga local musicians,Americana,rock n roll,blues ang genre. Nagtitinda rin siya ng vintage at used instruments kaya iniikutan ng mga national touring acts. Minsan dumaan si Joe Bonamassa kasama ang tech niya at bumili ng mga parts,stuff you don't see at Guitar Center. Nagpa-picture kami siyempre wehehe.
Post by: CeL1916 on August 03, 2015, 03:27:58 PM
Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.
Kung kupal ang propeta why not?
Post by: randymarsh on August 03, 2015, 04:39:19 PM
Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.
Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.
Seriously?
IBTL :-D :-D :-D
Post by: firemodel55 on August 03, 2015, 05:53:11 PM
Kung kupal ang propeta why not?
Wala naman propeta na hindi kupal... Ang mas malaking problema mga taong bingi na hindi marunong makinig.
Post by: CeL1916 on August 03, 2015, 11:08:37 PM
Wala naman propeta na hindi kupal... Ang mas malaking problema mga taong bingi na hindi marunong makinig.
Haha parang kris aquino no? Pag nagsalita akala mo opinyon lang niya ang mahalaga at siya ang benchmark ng kahit ano.
Seriously i really do believe that expensive guitar is far more superior than cheaper ones and mid end guitars. Now does it bother me if a really good guitar player on a bar is playing an epiphone and not a gil yaron? nope! Music is what matters, if its good its good. If given the chance/money would i buy one? Of course. Would i preach about it like its the most important thing and be an @ss about it? No.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 04, 2015, 04:54:25 AM
Haha parang kris aquino no? Pag nagsalita akala mo opinyon lang niya ang mahalaga at siya ang benchmark ng kahit ano.
Seriously i really do believe that expensive guitar is far more superior than cheaper ones and mid end guitars. Now does it bother me if a really good guitar player on a bar is playing an epiphone and not a gil yaron? nope! Music is what matters, if its good its good. If given the chance/money would i buy one? Of course. Would i preach about it like its the most important thing and be an @ss about it? No.
I welcome various opinions. I am just here to say that Hiyaw is the important factor -- more precisely as indicator for guitar with mojo. As to whether you like your guitar sound bright or dull, twangy or heavy, hollow or solid, single coil or humbucker, etc, its all cool with me.
I do not like Kris Aquino because she pretends to be exposed when she is not. Its all her about her. Its not about me, but God or maybe some higher power, willed the existence of guitars with mojo. I am just a messenger who earned a lot of exposure to some of the great guitar gear in the world.
I agree with you that Music matters but I want to qualify up to a certain point. If it starts sounding bad, it stops mattering because your ear shuts down.
If you have the right to your silence of speech, I choose to exercise my freedom of speech to preach. Because I dislike it when other people are victimized by gear that do not perform or sound bad. This is my advocacy. And if you cannot appreciate then you are a bigger @ss than I for the simple reason that you are shutting yourself out of learning something that will benefit you.
Post by: royc on August 04, 2015, 08:30:09 AM
Tone is a characteristic of what we hear and it is a result of the signal chain:
1. How the strings are played
2. How the guitar converts the string vibrations to electrical signal, including the vibration fed back to the strings by the wood.
3. How the added effects enhance the sound.
4. How the amp amplifies the signal while colorizing the signal.
5. How the speaker converts and colorizes the signal to sound so we can hear it.
6. How the room acoustics, or the lack of it, affect the sound that we hear.
I believe that your expensive guitars possess the tone that many guitarists would love to have. However, we have different priorities when it comes to financial matters. Collectors only want the best. For working musicians, it makes sense to buy guitars whose price is proportional to their earnings from gigs. For bedroom musicians, an affordable guitar with acceptable tone and playability would suffice, unless they have excess income to buy guitars that are more expensive.
Only our ears can hear the tone. There is no way for our sense of touch to identify a good sounding guitar or not. The vibration you feel from guitars with aged wood is not a guarantee that it will have a great tone. I can feel the vibration of all my past MIJ guitars, but not all of them had a great tone in my opinion.
Is hiyaw a feeling that has to be experienced? I cannot describe the feeling when I played my vintage Greco LP with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior. I can feel the vibration on my chest and hear the rattling of the walls. The guitar was very responsive to the touch. Did I call it hiyaw? No. The feeling was a reaction to what I heard and felt. Was the tone better than your guitar? I believe it was not, but I love it nevertheless.
Playability affects both the tone and how the guitarist is able to play the guitar, depending on his musical preference. It is my expectation that high-end guitars, especially custom-made guitars, have the best playability out of the box. However, a good tech or luthier can make a non-custom guitar playable if the materials and workmanship are good.
I agree that guitarists, especially beginners, should be educated on how to choose a guitar with good tone and acceptable playability. However, let us not confuse them with terms that we cannot explain without asking them to go to your place to experience it.
Post by: analog.matt on August 04, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
"This range is your true low end. The bottom half of this range (20 Hz to 40 Hz) is more felt than heard. In this range, it can be very hard to discern a true pitch. Most speaker systems, even high-end studio monitors, don't even produce sound accurately in this range, if at all. For reference, an Imperial Bosendorfer extended grand piano starts at the note F0 (21.8 Hz fundamental) and your normal concert grand starts at A0 (27.5 Hz fundamental) – and even those notes are hard to tune at their fundamental. The upper half (40 Hz to 80 Hz) is where the lowest note of the four-string bass (fundamental E at 41 Hz) comes into play. This is that rumbly bottom end you feel in your chest when you hear it."
now on the other side of the scale
10k Hz and beyond
"These are the extreme highs. This is where frequency response starts to experience dropouts like it did in the low end, but for the opposite reasons. Sometimes it's because the transducer of a microphone may not be able to accurately respond to these frequencies, but sometimes it's because people can literally not hear things going on in this range. (High-end hearing in this realm is usually the first to go.) These frequencies can best be described as "air." That heady, open quality to a sound usually results from good representation of overtones in this range. Now, before you go pegging out all your EQs at 10 to 12k Hz to add airiness, also understand that simply boosting this range won't give you anything but noise if nothing exists there to begin with. For example, jingle a set of car keys. That really crispy, bell-like quality of the keys hitting one another is what we refer to in this air range. Can’t hear it? Don't worry, I know a number of incredible mix engineers who I'm nearly positive are deaf to anything above 14k Hz, and they still do incredible work. "
"The sounds that are “beyond” the human range of hearing and ones that you can only feel. They are known as “harmonic frequencies” which are musical notes that can reach outside the “hearing range” while the ones you can hear are known as “fundamental frequencies“. Instruments in particular have a great variation in harmonic frequencies as the frequency for each note is different on each instrument allowing you to tell they are well… Different instruments."
another problem kasi is experience and exposure kasi hindi natin kinalakihan etong mga gitarang to. kung arnis man lang to, or something inherent sa culture natin then we may know better. but this is something that steven seagal or richard gere would know because they grew up with these things. (unfortunately, Filipino oldies --those who grew up playing in the 50s, 60s, 70s do not have time for Philmusic. they also laugh at the know it alls here whenever they hear the stories.)
but problem is, many of us are like blind men trying to validate their experience to those who have experienced the real thing.
hence to avoid that, on a personal level this is what i do
1. i visit people with great gears (great tone of course)
2. visit vintage stores and play what i can play -- and spend time doing so
3. visit used guitar stores for the semi vintage variety and modern guitars
4. interview people with direct experience of good gear (ie interview the owner of the vintage shop who are usually collectors too)
5. interview people who have been in this field. its like what alex does with the ones he meets in the US.
by doing this, instead of being defensive, im opening my cup of tea so i can learn more. what i reject i dont throw away, i keep pa din. because growth is constant and i may understand it better later in the future.
iba kasi ang Truth sa Business. hindi ka kikita sa Truth. kahit nga sa mga relihyon ang truth minamanipulate eh. gitara pa kaya.
what i've learned too from the local used stores here is they don't shut me out. I mentioned "Callaham made guitar" one time and one of them ran to me as i was going out and asked, "just would like to ask for the sake of knowing...what's this Callaham guitar that you mentioned and etc etc. " yun ang good attitude when it comes to learning. and this is why pinas is having a hard time getting away from 3rd world culture because masyado marami know it all.
Post by: royc on August 04, 2015, 09:59:11 AM
"The sounds that are “beyond” the human range of hearing and ones that you can only feel. They are known as “harmonic frequencies” which are musical notes that can reach outside the “hearing range” while the ones you can hear are known as “fundamental frequencies“. Instruments in particular have a great variation in harmonic frequencies as the frequency for each note is different on each instrument allowing you to tell they are well… Different instruments."
You forgot to mention that guitar amp speakers cannot reproduce these harmonic frequencies. Even if I play an electric guitar that can produce harmonic frequencies, I cannot play it through the amp and would mostly be drowned by the suported frequencies.
As an example, the frequency range for a Celestion Vintage 30 is 70-5000Hz.
Source:
http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ (http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/)
Even most electric guitar pickups are not full range.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 04, 2015, 09:59:34 AM
The way I see it, the problem here is your insistence on using the term “hiyaw” without the capability to explain what it is exactly. All the explanations I have read so far are explainable by universally accepted terms like tone and playability. Had you used these terms instead, then I would have agreed with most of your arguments.
(Its a new term in itself. So I cannot explain it in common terms. I have defined tone as timbre. With regards to playability -- for me thats a function of set up.)
Tone is a characteristic of what we hear and it is a result of the signal chain: (I have defined tone or timbre as different from Hiyaw. I did not use the common slang word 'tone' as used by guitarists.)
1. How the strings are played
2. How the guitar converts the string vibrations to electrical signal, including the vibration fed back to the strings by the wood.
3. How the added effects enhance the sound.
4. How the amp amplifies the signal while colorizing the signal.
5. How the speaker converts and colorizes the signal to sound so we can hear it.
6. How the room acoustics, or the lack of it, affect the sound that we hear.
I believe that your expensive guitars possess the tone that many guitarists would love to have. However, we have different priorities when it comes to financial matters. Collectors only want the best. For working musicians, it makes sense to buy guitars whose price is proportional to their earnings from gigs. For bedroom musicians, an affordable guitar with acceptable tone and playability would suffice, unless they have excess income to buy guitars that are more expensive.
(Both my Expensive and Not so Expensive Guitars have tone (timbre) plus hiyaw. I am NOT a collector. I consider myself a passionate hobbyist of great electric guitar tone. I have nothing against working musicians with working man guitars. But... maybe they can also learn something from me.)
Only our ears can hear the tone. There is no way for our sense of touch to identify a good sounding guitar or not. The vibration you feel from guitars with aged wood is not a guarantee that it will have a great tone. I can feel the vibration of all my past MIJ guitars, but not all of them had a great tone in my opinion.
(Yes. Ears can hear tone. It can also hear a bullhorn or car horn but the bullhorn will not connect to you and your feelings because it does not have Hiyaw. My 15 guitars are not all made of Aged Wood only a few are. And thats my point, you don't need aged wood to get Hiyaw. Hiyaw is not limited to vibration. Even a pinch harmonic has a vibration.)
Is hiyaw a feeling that has to be experienced? I cannot describe the feeling when I played my vintage Greco LP with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior. I can feel the vibration on my chest and hear the rattling of the walls. The guitar was very responsive to the touch. Did I call it hiyaw? No. The feeling was a reaction to what I heard and felt. Was the tone better than your guitar? I believe it was not, but I love it nevertheless.
(Hiyaw is different from a Greco Lp with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior. A Greco LP with 57 classics pups that has hiyaw on a cranked Blues Junior will still sound different and more responsive and toneful.)
Playability affects both the tone and how the guitarist is able to play the guitar, depending on his musical preference. It is my expectation that high-end guitars, especially custom-made guitars, have the best playability out of the box. However, a good tech or luthier can make a non-custom guitar playable if the materials and workmanship are good.
(As I pointed out earlier, even without proper set up; a guitar with Hiyaw will have it. A guitar either has it or it does not. A guitar without hiyaw cannot be given hiyaw by any tech or luthier.)
I agree that guitarists, especially beginners, should be educated on how to choose a guitar with good tone and acceptable playability. However, let us not confuse them with terms that we cannot explain without asking them to go to your place to experience it.
(When I discuss hiyaw, it is not meant to address beginners. It is meant to address guitarist who are really into the instrument and want the best for themselves. Eh Kung Anne Curtiss lang iyan, it will be a waste of my time.)
Post by: qroon on August 04, 2015, 10:31:18 AM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 04, 2015, 10:35:44 AM
You forgot to mention that guitar amp speakers cannot reproduce these harmonic frequencies. Even if I play an electric guitar that can produce harmonic frequencies, I cannot play it through the amp and would mostly be drowned by the suported frequencies.
As an example, the frequency range for a Celestion Vintage 30 is 70-5000Hz.
Source:
http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ (http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/)
Even most electric guitar pickups are not full range.
Yeah but the speaker has to go into a cabinet. The speaker interacting with the cabinet may produce the lower frequencies that the driver does not. When a Wilson Audio speaker produces those low frequencies its because of the total design.
Post by: royc on August 04, 2015, 10:44:04 AM
Yeah but the speaker has to go into a cabinet. The speaker interacting with the cabinet may produce the lower frequencies that the driver does not. When a Wilson Audio speaker produces those low frequencies its because of the total design.
Is there a cabinet design that can reproduce the harmonic frequencies supposedly coming from your electric guitar? I believe your statement refers to frequencies produced by a cabinet, not an electric guitar.
Plywood is less resonant than solid wood. That means a pine cabinet adds texture to the resulting sound, while a birch ply may not.
The added bass is also common on closed back cabs. Ported cabs also results in better bass.
Post by: Ben Tsing Co on August 04, 2015, 10:59:31 AM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 04, 2015, 11:02:14 AM
Is there a cabinet design that can reproduce the harmonic frequencies supposedly coming from your electric guitar? I believe your statement refers to frequencies produced by a cabinet, not an electric guitar.
Please clarify your statement...
I was just referring to your assertion that a Vintage 30 will produce a limited bandwidth. What I am just saying is that you do NOT play your Vintage 30 suspended in mid air. It is actually loaded into a cabinet, and how you load it also affects frequency response/bandwidth.
So, a lot of lower frequencies which are overtones of the fundamental are lower than the 70Hz produced by the Vintage 30. Thats why I love my Mills Acoustics cabinets because I feel it is the best match to a Vintage 30.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 04, 2015, 11:07:33 AM
Post by: royc on August 04, 2015, 11:08:57 AM
Please clarify your statement...
I was just referring to your assertion that a Vintage 30 will produce a limited bandwidth. What I am just saying is that you do NOT play your Vintage 30 suspend in mid air. It is actually loaded into a cabinet, and how you load it also affects frequency response/bandwidth.
So, a lot of lower frequencies which are overtones of the fundamental are lower than the 70Hz produced by the Vintage 30. Thats why I love my Mills Acoustics cabinets because I feel it is the best match to a Vintage 30.
My responses, until your cabinet comment, were limited to tones produced by electric guitars (except for the signal chain explanation). I believe the original post was an answer to my question on feeling the tone from the electric guitar vs hearing it. I responded accordingly.
We have no argument on cabinet design as we both understand its concepts and share the same belief.
Post by: guitarbrat on August 04, 2015, 04:21:37 PM
Post by: royc on August 04, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
May I know who created the new term hiyaw and who decides if a guitar has hiyaw?
Timbre is normally used to differentiate the tonal characteristics of different instruments. I prefer to use the simpler term tone, but that is just me. Anyway, we know that we are referring to the same thing when we say tone/timbre.
Defining playability as a function of a set up is good. At least we won't argue on playability when discussing about tone or timbre.
(Both my Expensive and Not so Expensive Guitars have tone (timbre) plus hiyaw. I am NOT a collector. I consider myself a passionate hobbyist of great electric guitar tone. I have nothing against working musicians with working man guitars. But... maybe they can also learn something from me.)
I agree that you are passionate with your hobby and I admire that you let others try your gears. I just suggest that you express your opinions without offending local musicians, guitar techs, and luthiers sometimes.
(Yes. Ears can hear tone. It can also hear a bullhorn or car horn but the bullhorn will not connect to you and your feelings because it does not have Hiyaw. My 15 guitars are not all made of Aged Wood only a few are. And thats my point, you don't need aged wood to get Hiyaw. Hiyaw is not limited to vibration. Even a pinch harmonic has a vibration.)
It is amusing to note that one of those who believe in hiyaw talks about guitar vibration when I asked how he can feel, instead of hear, tone. It seems some of those who believe in hiyaw do not fully understand what is hiyaw.
(Hiyaw is different from a Greco Lp with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior. A Greco LP with 57 classics pups that has hiyaw on a cranked Blues Junior will still sound different and more responsive and toneful.)
I used the Greco as an example of using feeling in addition to hearing. I did not say there was hiyaw. BTW how can you tell that my setup has no hiyaw without hearing it?
(As I pointed out earlier, even without proper set up; a guitar with Hiyaw will have it. A guitar either has it or it does not. A guitar without hiyaw cannot be given hiyaw by any tech or luthier.)
Interesting. So a guitar with very high action, bowed neck, dead frets, and bad intonation can still have hiyaw?
(When I discuss hiyaw, it is not meant to address beginners. It is meant to address guitarist who are really into the instrument and want the best for themselves. Eh Kung Anne Curtiss lang iyan, it will be a waste of my time.)
There are beginners who want the best for themselves :-)
Nabubuhay tong philmusic pag nag i istart ng thread tong si firemodel. :-D
A healthy exchange of opinion is good from time to time :-)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 04, 2015, 08:33:56 PM
(My friend Arie Hipolito introduced in to me in the mid-late 90s. Since he serviced so many guitars (thousands since the 90s, he noticed certain guitars had this hiyaw property.)
I agree that you are passionate with your hobby and I admire that you let others try your gears. I just suggest that you express your opinions without offending local musicians, guitar techs, and luthiers sometimes.
(Well if they are offended they are either doing something wrong OR they are not exposed enough to realize what I am saying.)
It is amusing to note that one of those who believe in hiyaw talks about guitar vibration when I asked how he can feel, instead of hear, tone. It seems some of those who believe in hiyaw do not fully understand what is hiyaw.
(Again, as I said before there is a feel component to it that inexplicable. And I cannot blaim the others if words are IMPERFECT at describing the reality of Hiyaw. Its the nature of the beast.)
I used the Greco as an example of using feeling in addition to hearing. I did not say there was hiyaw. BTW how can you tell that my setup has no hiyaw without hearing it?
( What I meant is that IF your guitar had hiyaw it would sound better then without. I did not claim to have already assessed your Greco as having it or not.)
Interesting. So a guitar with very high action, bowed neck, dead frets, and bad intonation can still have hiyaw?
(Yes.)
As a beginner, I was lucky enough to get a real good deal on a one-off DW collector series but there are very few people like me I guess. :-)
Post by: CeL1916 on August 05, 2015, 01:03:57 AM
I agree that you are passionate with your hobby and I admire that you let others try your gears. I just suggest that you express your opinions without offending local musicians, guitar techs, and luthiers sometimes.
(Well if they are offended they are either doing something wrong OR they are not exposed enough to realize what I am saying.)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/zjwgag.gif)
Post by: rye715 on August 05, 2015, 05:11:13 AM
Sorry, but until you can post something here that you created about your hiyawish instrument, your arguments don't prove anything.
Post a video and lets hear and see you prove.
That's my dare, that's my challenge.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 06:48:37 AM
Puro hiyaw ang binabandila pero wala namang maprove na ginawang music or album or piyesa man lang featuring your "hiyaw". Puro lang hiyaw, hanggang hiyaw lang.
(Ok, so ikaw rin may album na rin Rye? I am talking about hiyaw and not recording contracts.)
Sorry, but until you can post something here that you created about your hiyawish instrument, your arguments don't prove anything.
(I think my message is that Hiyaw exists on itself with or without my post. And what I am saying is that Hiyaw is the definitive indicator that determines whether a guitar has mojo or not. Its not about you, but rather its about how specific pieces of wood when joined together produce magical guitars.)
Post a video and lets hear and see you prove.
(Hahaha. Video na nga ang kailangan mo. Will you fund the production? All you have to do is come over to hear my sucky Charvel versus my other guitars.)
That's my dare, that's my challenge.
(Hangang youtube ka na lang yata Rye. There's more to life then videos. And your dare just shows one thing to me, kulang na kulang ka sa exposure sa magandang equipment.)
Alam mo Rye? Ikaw na nga ang nagsabi na walang akong recording, tapos gusto mo pa ako mag produce ng recording ng Hiyaw? So how can I ever CONFIDENTLY produce a CONVINCING recording of Hiyaw kung sasabihin mo lang sa akin na wala akong recording?
Yet gusto mo na ako mag produce agad ng video? Don't you see your LOGIC problem. You are asking someone to produce a video when in the first place you stated first and foremost na wala akong K dahil wala akong recording.
Post by: randymarsh on August 05, 2015, 06:49:27 AM
Puro hiyaw ang binabandila pero wala namang maprove na ginawang music or album or piyesa man lang featuring your "hiyaw". Puro lang hiyaw, hanggang hiyaw lang.
Sorry, but until you can post something here that you created about your hiyawish instrument, your arguments don't prove anything.
Post a video and lets hear and see you prove.
That's my dare, that's my challenge.
Unfortunately this will never happen again. Someone already posted a video of him demonstrating the "HIYAW" phenomenon and got super trolled.
Post by: royc on August 05, 2015, 09:09:14 AM
Unfortunately this will never happen again. Someone already posted a video of him demonstrating the "HIYAW" phenomenon and got super trolled.
It does not have to be him playing the guitar coz we just want to hear the hiyaw. He can lend his best guitar to a band for a recording session, probably one of the guitarists who has tried his guitars and convinced there was hiyaw.
Unfortunately, it was stated here that hiyaw cannot be heard on recording. It can only be experienced by going to his place and playing his guitar. At least that is how I understand it.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 09:11:41 AM
It does not have to be him playing the guitar coz we just want to hear the hiyaw. He can lend his best guitar to a band for a recording session, probably one of the guitarists who has tried his guitars and convinced there was hiyaw.
Unfortunately, it was stated here that hiyaw cannot be heard on recording. It can only be experienced by going to his place and playing his guitar. At least that is how I understand it.
As I said, part of it is to be felt.
Post by: kawal on August 05, 2015, 10:51:19 AM
Post by: chipsdelight on August 05, 2015, 03:15:08 PM
Unfortunately this will never happen again. Someone already posted a video of him demonstrating the "HIYAW" phenomenon and got super trolled.Yan ba sir yung demo sa PRS? Haha
Post by: kaloyski on August 05, 2015, 03:31:13 PM
Anyway. I kinda agree to both sides. While "hiyaw" may be present, the way the concept is introduced is kinda blurry. You really can't get away convincing people just by saying "part of it is to be felt." This is the internet. You communicate through text, images, and sounds. You're gonna have a hard time convincing people if you can't send "feel" over the internet.
Post by: rye715 on August 05, 2015, 05:12:16 PM
As I said, part of it is to be felt.
If it is to be felt, then "hiyaw" is SUBJECTIVE in nature.
If something is subjective in nature, why do you need to prove it as something UNIVERSAL (as suggested by your thread title)?
It's like saying "That is a great painting, I understood it, because I felt it, so it must be the same for all".
Mind you, not all can see past through Picasso's or Gogh's paintings......and we're just talking about art (which is as subjective as music itself).
Basing once's claim on that something is absolute or universal on the basis of "how it feels" is dangerous, and at the same time,
laughably insulting to us who always have the appetite to voice our own opinions to the point of death.
Post by: rye715 on August 05, 2015, 05:18:42 PM
Alam mo Rye? Ikaw na nga ang nagsabi na walang akong recording, tapos gusto mo pa ako mag produce ng recording ng Hiyaw? So how can I ever CONFIDENTLY produce a CONVINCING recording of Hiyaw kung sasabihin mo lang sa akin na wala akong recording?
Yet gusto mo na ako mag produce agad ng video? Don't you see your LOGIC problem. You are asking someone to produce a video when in the first place you stated first and foremost na wala akong K dahil wala akong recording.
Alam mo firemodel, instead of making excuses, you could spent your time recording the best HIYAW video you can come up with and show it.
You claimed that great guitar tone is universal (even though it has been already argued that is subjective) , then support your claim.
You have the burden to prove it because you claimed it.
As of this writing, there's no video from you, none whatsoever.
Only excuses...
...and excuses. (sigh)
Typical.
Post by: ios on August 05, 2015, 05:33:49 PM
But if HIYAW can't be heard or felt over youtube or even audio CD's then I personally don't think its a big deal. In live situations, probably mostly gearheads will notice it.
Of course every musician's goal is to achieve the best tone possible but not having hiyaw isn't worth losing sleep over.
Post by: sonicassault on August 05, 2015, 05:45:29 PM
Is it qualitative? Of course.
Is it quantitative? Definitely not (and this is why the debate even exists). Give the exact same grilled chicken ingredients and exact same recipe and technique to a home cook and Bobby Flay and I can guarantee that the Bobby Flay will have the grilled chicken with"hiyaw."
Is it universal? Yes, but it takes people who can discern the quality, similar to how chefs can distinguish fresh shrimp from frozen while ordinary people cannot. These chefs have experienced these in person, similar to how firemodel claims you should go to his place and check his stuff.
Can you show it through the internet? I don't think so. Similar to how I have followed an Alton Brown cookie recipe to the letter, including the exact weights, grade of flour and butter-sugar ratio and cook and rest times and whatnot, but it barely looked like the one in the picture and obviously didn't have the expected texture.
The point is, there's no reason to debate whether hiyaw exists or not, and firemodel trying to prove it through videos or records won't do anything to back up his claims. You both have to be there with your guitars and his guitars and use the same amps and cables and rooms. Then only can you judge if you think hiyaw exists or not.
IMO you can only start debating about the existence of hiyaw if you have played both non-hiyaw guitars (which is the default case) and guitars that are claimed to possess hiyaw.
End of story.
(FWIW I think hiyaw may exist, but only because the same concept of "universal exceptional quality" exists in other non-quantifiable aspects or disciplines, like the aforementioned food example. I can't say I believe in it yet though, because I haven't even had the chance to play better guitars through capable equipment)
P.S. as a recording enthusiast I also agree with firemodel that hiyaw, if it exists, cannot be captured by recording, as recordings are inherently "lossy" and highly dependent on the character of the microphone, preamps, A/D converters, sampling frequency, mic placement, etc. (ask a recording engineer what half an inch does to sound).
Post by: gandydancer123 on August 05, 2015, 06:05:48 PM
no matter what level mo mafeel..if a guitar speaks to you..that first strum, or pick...alam mo na everything is right sa instrument na yun...maaring, hindi ngayon, after a few years pa mafeel.. parang yung medyo marketing na sinabi ni John mayer sa TBO prototype niya..yung una niyang nakuha di daw niya feel..nilgay pa nga dw niya sa ref...then eventually lumabas yung hiyaw...
its a feel I think...and its between the guitar and the guitarist..yung connection na yun..parang yung life cord sa Avatar..
(http://images.wikia.com/jamescameronsavatar/images/d/d7/Tsahaylu.png)
Post by: david_leyson on August 05, 2015, 06:37:03 PM
Post by: sonicassault on August 05, 2015, 06:51:44 PM
As I see things here, and as explained, argued and debated upon, "HIYAW" as it exists, will not be heard audibly in recording and everything not unless you yourself played an instrument with "HIYAW", tama ba sir fm55? Correct if i'm wrong, the way I see it, "HIYAW" gives the benefit of it only to the one who plays, thus the player and does not contribute to the overall sound output of everything via recording, listeners and audiophiles wouldn't recognize if the recorded instrument has "HIYAW" or not. to sum it up, HIYAW will only be present on the players side while the audience side will never have it not until they get to be the player playing the instrument with HIYAW
I can affirm the recording part, it won't work. I also think you're right in the part where the players have to be present with the guitar, but I'd like to clarify with firemodel if only the player can experience the hiyaw or you can be an audience in the same room and still experience the hiyaw.
Post by: david_leyson on August 05, 2015, 07:00:26 PM
I can affirm the recording part, it won't work. I also think you're right in the part where the players have to be present with the guitar, but I'd like to clarify with firemodel if only the player can experience the hiyaw or you can be an audience in the same room and still experience the hiyaw.
Good question, and IF YES, will it be experienced amplified or not?
Post by: ryechua on August 05, 2015, 07:12:09 PM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 08:21:00 PM
alex, can you post a photo of your custom tele here as well as the specs? interesado rin ako dun sa mga kahoy nya. i personally have experience dealing with wood.
Some shots:
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q182/oasgomez/IMG_2383small.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/oasgomez/media/IMG_2383small.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q182/oasgomez/IMG_2388small.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/oasgomez/media/IMG_2388small.jpg.html)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q182/oasgomez/IMG_2389small.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/oasgomez/media/IMG_2389small.jpg.html)
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Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 08:23:38 PM
the more i read the posts about hiyaw in this thread, the more it reminds me of the theory of the scalarizer.
Iyun ang problema, your experience of hiyaw is limited to reading about it instead of hearing for yourself in person. By the way, I was the first one who criticized the scalarizer. And this is no way at all remotely similar to the scalarizer.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 08:45:18 PM
If it is to be felt, then "hiyaw" is SUBJECTIVE in nature.
(Just because something can be felt it does not mean that it cannot be an objective reality.)
If something is subjective in nature, why do you need to prove it as something UNIVERSAL (as suggested by your thread title)?
(Thats the irony is it? It is exists UNIVERSALLY but SUBJECTIVELY felt.)
It's like saying "That is a great painting, I understood it, because I felt it, so it must be the same for all".
(Mind you Hiyaw is even better than a great painting because it reaches out and touches your soul more so than a great painting because it becomes part of your individual expression.)
Mind you, not all can see past through Picasso's or Gogh's paintings......and we're just talking about art (which is as subjective as music itself).
(If art is as subjective as you say, why then is there GREAT art and BAD art?)
Basing once's claim on that something is absolute or universal on the basis of "how it feels" is dangerous, and at the same time,
(Why is it dangerous? Love is universal because you can feel it. The will to live or extreme forms of self preservation is felt and it is the MOST UNIVERSAL basic foundation of life.)
laughably insulting to us who always have the appetite to voice our own opinions to the point of death.
( I am not laughing... Basic lang iyan gusto mo ba matuto o gusto mo lang ba mangibabaw ang opinyon mo? Sabihin mo na kasi ang gulo ng saysay mo.)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 08:53:53 PM
Alam mo firemodel, instead of making excuses, you could spent your time recording the best HIYAW video you can come up with and show it.
(As I said, you can just come over and try the 15 guitars over the sucky Charvel. Ikaw ang humihingi ng video, ikaw mag finance. Sabi mo nga wala akong recording tapos hinihintay mo video ko. Walang credibility dahil hahanapan mo lang ng lusot ang gagawin kong video.
Kaya para wala kang masabi, ikaw na lang gumawa ng video mo para kung nakalimutan mo na ikaw ang gumawa ng video, at least, ma i reklamo mo ang sarili mo at walang turuan sa iba.)
You claimed that great guitar tone is universal (even though it has been already argued that is subjective) , then support your claim.
(Your counter claim that tone is NOT universal is any more objective? It follows na kung subjective ang position mo na guitar tone is universal, then subjective rin ang opposite which is tone is NOT universal.)
You have the burden to prove it because you claimed it.
(The burden of proof only requires that you haul your ass over to listen to my 15 guitars versus the crappy Charvel.)
As of this writing, there's no video from you, none whatsoever.
(So? Sinasabi ko hindi kailangan ng video. Pang taxi lang ang kailangan. Baka gusto mo na bayaran ko pa ang pang taxi mo? Sige game ako. Babayaran ko ang pang taxi mo. Anong gusto mo GRAB o Uber? Para at least pagkuha ng taxi ay over the internet rin.)
Only excuses...
...and excuses. (sigh)
(Wala akong excuse kasi I can prove my point if you come over. Anong excuse mo para hindi magpakita dito?)
Typical.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 08:57:43 PM
Question though, what is "hiyaw" in english?
Anyway. I kinda agree to both sides. While "hiyaw" may be present, the way the concept is introduced is kinda blurry. You really can't get away convincing people just by saying "part of it is to be felt." This is the internet. You communicate through text, images, and sounds. You're gonna have a hard time convincing people if you can't send "feel" over the internet.
Kayloyski, here is my reply. I do not intend to insult you with my answer. Just take it as is. Its like Kobe Beef. I can show you all the pics and the history of Kobe Beef, etc. But there is no equivalent of tasting it. And let me tell you words are not enough to describe how it tastes.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 09:04:12 PM
I really enjoy this thread and I do believe that there are exceptionally good and bad sounding guitars out there. Sir Firemodel55 really knows his stuff and its nice of him to share his thoughts.
But if HIYAW can't be heard or felt over youtube or even audio CD's then I personally don't think its a big deal. In live situations, probably mostly gearheads will notice it.
Of course every musician's goal is to achieve the best tone possible but not having hiyaw isn't worth losing sleep over.
Just my thoughts: Eh kung sinabi ko maaring marinig sa vinyl? So is it a big deal now? Its not. Right? What matter is that its there in your specific instrument when you are alone practicing, when you record, when you gig and most of all when you are about to decide which guitar to sell.
Believe it or not the first one's to notice hiyaw will be non guitarists kasi, when we gig live our attention is split between hearing our instrument and thinking about the next part to execute with our fingers. The others just hear the full sound of your guitar.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 09:21:24 PM
As I see things here, and as explained, argued and debated upon, "HIYAW" as it exists, will not be heard audibly in recording and everything not unless you yourself played an instrument with "HIYAW", tama ba sir fm55?
(And fortunately for us guitarists, only our guitars seem to bring the best out of it. Ok let me say, that if we recorded and mastered at Sterling Studios New York and played back on a DCS Vivaldi CD player at US$108k into a Ypsilon PST100 MK2 Preamp at US$37k
into a Chord SPM 14000 Monoblock na US$80k a pair driving a Wilson Audio Alexandria XLF at US$200k a pair then maybe you can compare a guitar with and without Hiyaw over a recording.)
(Ang problema ko sa mga makulit humihingi ng recording at ayaw naman subukan in persaon ay bulok naman playback equipment nila tapos pipilitin nila na recording.)
Correct if i'm wrong, the way I see it, "HIYAW" gives the benefit of it only to the one who plays, thus the player and does not contribute to the overall sound output of everything via recording, listeners and audiophiles wouldn't recognize if the recorded instrument has "HIYAW" or not. to sum it up, HIYAW will only be present on the players side while the audience side will never have it not until they get to be the player playing the instrument with HIYAW
(Listeners who have heard hiyaw just say mas magana ang tunog ng gitara. Again, Hiyaw, as an indicator also points out to good sounding timbre.)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 09:22:50 PM
Good question, and IF YES, will it be experienced amplified or not?
In my experience, some amplifiers make hiyaw more prominent than others. For example, modeling amps don't do as good a job as my tube amps.
Post by: ios on August 05, 2015, 10:08:24 PM
Just my thoughts: Eh kung sinabi ko maaring marinig sa vinyl? So is it a big deal now? Its not. Right? What matter is that its there in your specific instrument when you are alone practicing, when you record, when you gig and most of all when you are about to decide which guitar to sell.
Believe it or not the first one's to notice hiyaw will be non guitarists kasi, when we gig live our attention is split between hearing our instrument and thinking about the next part to execute with our fingers. The others just hear the full sound of your guitar.
I agree on having a guitar with mojo to practice/gig with. But I'm sure you have experienced a love-hate relationship with your gear kahit may "hiyaw" pa yan. Some days we just prefer guitar A over B then the opposite happens the next day.
I don't agree with non-guitarist noticing hiyaw because i'm pretty sure they listen to the band as a whole rather than single out every instrument unless they all have sensitive ears like yours. Pero depende rin siguro sa gig kung mala G3 or Aristocrats yan na lutang talaga yung Instruments.
Peace!
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 10:32:04 PM
I agree on having a guitar with mojo to practice/gig with. But I'm sure you have experienced a love-hate relationship with your gear kahit may "hiyaw" pa yan. Some days we just prefer guitar A over B then the opposite happens the next day.
(Just to add another dimension, for example Guitar A has hiyaw and B does not. You will always prefer to use Guitar A. Assuming Both Guitar A and B both have hiyaw then mas love hate and anything goes the next day.)
I don't agree with non-guitarist noticing hiyaw because i'm pretty sure they listen to the band as a whole rather than single out every instrument unless they all have sensitive ears like yours. Pero depende rin siguro sa gig kung mala G3 or Aristocrats yan na lutang talaga yung Instruments.
(Actually, do not underestimate the audience. Just because they are not musicians does not mean their ears are not as sensitive or appreciative. Magugulat ka na mas pansin nila ang guitar tone mo kaysa sa iyo.)
Peace!
Post by: farseer on August 05, 2015, 10:53:46 PM
But at a certain point it will become subjective or kanya kanya...
Case in point when our good friend Steve and Rouel visited me, I let them play 3 guitars.
A Somogyi Mod D, a Blazer and Henkes 12 fret 000-42, and a Kim Walker SJ... all of the guitars have spruce tops and rosewood back and sides (2 Brazilian rosewood and one African blackwood w/c is almost as valuable as Braz).
Steve picked the Walker as the best sounding...
Rouel chose the Blazer and Henkes... w/c is a pre war Martin replica.
My friend Dante thinks the Somogyi is the best probably because of the huge bass... and he thinks the Walker is nothing extra ordinary.
A lot of folks swear by their Somogyis, Olsons... but some people dont care about their tone lol.
Most of the guitars in the 5K up range are great sounding... it just depends whether you like it complex, fundamental, clear w/ good note separation, warm, big bass, thick trebles, note bloom, etc...
Aggressive flat pickers will always lean towards a stiffer, more strident and cleaner sound.
Finger style players will like it round, complex and sustaining...
Different strokes for different folks :)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 05, 2015, 11:13:49 PM
I agree that great guitar tone is universal... or it can be appreciated by the majority
But at a certain point it will become subjective or kanya kanya...
Case in point when our good friend Steve and Rouel visited me, I let them play 3 guitars.
A Somogyi Mod D, a Blazer and Henkes 12 fret 000-42, and a Kim Walker SJ... all of the guitars have spruce tops and rosewood back and sides (2 Brazilian rosewood and one African blackwood w/c is almost as valuable as Braz).
Steve picked the Walker as the best sounding...
Rouel chose the Blazer and Henkes... w/c is a pre war Martin replica.
My friend Dante thinks the Somogyi is the best probably because of the huge bass... and he thinks the Walker is nothing extra ordinary.
A lot of folks swear by their Somogyis, Olsons... but some people dont care about their tone lol.
Most of the guitars in the 5K up range are great sounding... it just depends whether you like it complex, fundamental, clear w/ good note separation, warm, big bass, thick trebles, note bloom, etc...
Aggressive flat pickers will always lean towards a stiffer, more strident and cleaner sound.
Finger style players will like it round, complex and sustaining...
Different strokes for different folks :)
It is true specially for a minimum threshold. I mean people will universally accept the truth that those 3 guitars will sound better than an RJ acoustic kasi may minimum threshold to good timbre/tone that the 3 guitars meet. There maybe an exceptional person who will say that the RJ acoustic is better but the majority will say otherwise.
Post by: kaloyski on August 06, 2015, 07:45:16 AM
Kayloyski, here is my reply. I do not intend to insult you with my answer. Just take it as is. Its like Kobe Beef. I can show you all the pics and the history of Kobe Beef, etc. But there is no equivalent of tasting it. And let me tell you words are not enough to describe how it tastes.
Alright. Seems quite fair to me. Another point though--we are in a third world country and we don't have much access to a lot of gears, especially high end stuff. So you really can't blame them if their beliefs are different. Lastly, the way I see it, people are having a hard time grasping the concept of "hiyaw" maybe because of how you put down others (gears, guitar techs, etc.) just because you believe what you have is superior. Try not to be condescending on your posts and maybe that might change a little of the people's perspective.
I rest my case. Gonna grab some more popcorn for this thread. :-D
Post by: j-sonic on August 06, 2015, 07:57:11 AM
A lot of people are really not interested in other points of view besides those that they see inside their rectums. Hindi lang yan applicable sa mga gitarista,but in all walks of life.
Madami talaga ang hindi afford ang mamahaling instrumento,and sometimes it colors their views. Buuthurt sila against those who can afford,not only against Mr Firemodel,who makes himself a big target because of his unbending and outspoken ways,but against people who are more affluent than they are. Apparent din yan di lang sa guitar playing community.
Hindi ito generalization,hindi lahat ay ganoon. Pero madami talaga ang inggitero,gitarista man o hindi.
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 08:36:24 AM
I already pointed it out na third world country lang ang Pinas so madami talaga na ang opinions at points of view ay pang third world din.
A lot of people are really not interested in other points of view besides those that they see inside their rectums. Hindi lang yan applicable sa mga gitarista,but in all walks of life.
Madami talaga ang hindi afford ang mamahaling instrumento,and sometimes it colors their views. Buuthurt sila against those who can afford,not only against Mr Firemodel,who makes himself a big target because of his unbending and outspoken ways,but against people who are more affluent than they are. Apparent din yan di lang sa guitar playing community.
Hindi ito generalization,hindi lahat ay ganoon. Pero madami talaga ang inggitero,gitarista man o hindi.
That is an assumption devoid of supporting facts. People react not because they cannot afford expensive gears, but because of how some opinions stated are quite offensive. There are ways to spread your opinion without offending your readers.
There are also people who can afford expensive gears, but chose not to because they have other financial priorities. Do not expect a family man to buy expensive gears instead of spending for his family. Do not expect a working musician to spend hundreds of thousands while receiving a few hundred each gig.
Lastly, there is no third world point of view in this forum. The internet has broken geographical barriers and our views are no different from first world opinions. Those who really belong to the third world would not have the means to read this post and respond to it.
Post by: sonicassault on August 06, 2015, 09:14:23 AM
Kayloyski, here is my reply. I do not intend to insult you with my answer. Just take it as is. Its like Kobe Beef. I can show you all the pics and the history of Kobe Beef, etc. But there is no equivalent of tasting it. And let me tell you words are not enough to describe how it tastes.
I agree with this analogy.
And if hiyaw is only felt by the player, and certain equipment can enhance, be transparent with, or decrease hiyaw, I can liken it still to food. Certain ingredients in haute cuisine have certain aspects that only the chef can appreciate such as the ease of which you can cut something, how it reacts to heat, how long it keeps its texture given a certain cooking method etc.
So again, I do not, and in no way can I claim whether or not hiyaw exists. Just like I can't prove that pork bun hiyaw exists because I haven't had one from Tim Ho Wan, I can't say firemodel's concept of hiyaw exists because I have never played any of his guitars (or Arie's for that matter).
Yes, hiyaw is an "elitist" concept. There should be no argument there. Just like how haute cuisine is the realm of chefs and rich people, ordinary people cannot appreciate Kobe beef until they can afford it, and eat it properly done by a chef. And even then, most of them will deny that kobe beef is any different from P99 per kilo fresh-frozen beef in the supermarket because they just don't have the facility to discern it. On the other hand, to accommodate the idea that even subpar-condition guitars may posses hiyaw, again it's just like your grandma's home cooking. Most people will say it's good but only a chef can really say if it has hiyaw or not because it's his job to know the flavors and textures most people miss out on.
This is why I'm puzzled by this whole argument. Iba naman yung working man's guitar sa tone guitar, so dapat hindi na argument yung "di naman afford ng karamihan yan sa Pinas" (lalo na sa boutique) dahil personal yung paghanap ng ultimate tone (and there will always be a guitar with better tone than what you have now). Di ko rin gets yung kailangan i-prove na nag-eexist yung hiyaw. Hiyaw is simply a name for the concept of superior quality. Of course superior quality is universal; it exists, but whether or not you believe in it is really up to you, if you can sense it or not. It's not your fault if you can't sense it, as long as you've actually tried guitars that claim to have hiyaw.
Again, I'm not saying na may hiyaw. I just can't say yet. Pumunta na lang kasi kayo sa crib ni firemodel para tapos na.
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Di ko rin gets yung kailangan i-prove na nag-eexist yung hiyaw.
I believe that most of the question here, mine included, is not about proving that hiyaw exists, but asking for an explanation on what it is exactly. Those who support hiyaw cannot seem to agree on what it is, based on what I have read in this post. It is like an abstract painting being interpreted by two persons, both saying it is beautiful, but interpreting it differently.
I do not agree that food is a good analogy. We use our sense of taste to judge food. On the other hand, a guitar is an instrument to create music. Music is appreciated by our sense of hearing. Music can be recorded. You cannot record taste.
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 09:53:28 AM
My all time favorite builder has an article on this... please see link
http://www.esomogyi.com/tonal_bloom.pdf (http://www.esomogyi.com/tonal_bloom.pdf)
Post by: j-sonic on August 06, 2015, 09:54:16 AM
Gear not gears.
Granted some people cannot afford expensive gear,but it doesn't disprove the existence of hiyaw or whatever English term it is.
My point is,maraming dissenters na naiinggit lang dahil can't afford and I didn't say EVERYBODY.
Post by: sonicassault on August 06, 2015, 09:58:21 AM
I believe that most of the question here, mine included, is not about proving that hiyaw exists, but asking for an explanation on what it is exactly. Those who support hiyaw cannot seem to agree on what it is, based on what I have read in this post. It is like an abstract painting being interpreted by two persons, both saying it is beautiful, but interpreting it differently.
I do not agree that food is a good analogy. We use our sense of taste to judge food. On the other hand, a guitar is an instrument to create music. Music is appreciated by our sense of hearing. Music can be recorded. You cannot record taste.
You cannot record taste, yes, but it can be recreated consistently by a good chef. With recording however, and this is independent of the hiyaw issue, it is not a facsimile, however way you put it. You can only recreate the almost exact sound of something in a sound laboratory, which is ultra dead, and of course at the expense of overtones and other reverberations. If you've ever talked to a recording engineer, you will know that a half inch movement of a microphone can change a recorded sound drastically. That is why in the drumming world, where cymbals are usually chosen by their acoustic, unmiked properties, we tell buyers to always check them out in an ideal room with their preferred sticks. Likewise if hiyaw did exist, definitely it wont get into the recording.
I used food as an analogy because like fine instruments, it has a certain quality that makes them better than the rest but you can never really point out what the hell it is (just like the hiyaw issue). Parang yung pandesal sa kanto samin, pare-pareho lang naman ang recipe ng non-sweet pandesal, pero may ibang sarap yung pandesal nila, using the same ingredients and methods (I asked, it's the normal TESDA recipe).
Yung hiyaw na issue na to feeling ko parang Stradivarius to eh. People claim that the Stradivari instruments have this quality that cannot be pointed out (like food, my preferred analogy). Violin construction is not wildly different, and tone woods in that era aren't chosen as precisely as we do now with fine measurements of density, grain, etc. So it can be said that any improvement in tonewood or construction is not exceptionally different, and yet it has a hiyaw-like reputation. But then several double blind tests have revealed that one cannot distinguish Stradivari from violins of different vintages.
I think a double blind test is in order, of course kasama si firemodel, another person who believes in hiyaw, a professional electric guitarist, and a professional electric guitarist who is also a tone geek. All guitars (hopefully the same shape) should be set up to what FM55 thinks is the closest it can get to best, then all four play the guitars with the exact same amp, cable, and room. then all will test the guitars blind, and 1. say if the guitar is the hiyaw-claiming guitar, and 2. if they think they can't tell.
EB na to! :lol:
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 10:03:28 AM
It is true specially for a minimum threshold. I mean people will universally accept the truth that those 3 guitars will sound better than an RJ acoustic kasi may minimum threshold to good timbre/tone that the 3 guitars meet. There maybe an exceptional person who will say that the RJ acoustic is better but the majority will say otherwise.
It will be hard for an RJ acoustic to compete...
But lets say some will like a very affordable Martin D-18 vs those 3 guitars costing 15-20 times more.
The Somogyis are overtone laden, some will like the more fundamental sound of the very ordinary Martin D-18 better.
Some guitars excel for finger style, others for flat picking, etc etc.... I havent seen a guitar to do it all...
Complexity is the bane of someone looking for a clean sound, they might find the guitar too busy...
I used to look for a big rambling bass to say the acoustic is nice, most of my friends still do... but now, I appreciate the fat trebles more... and when Im buying I look for that rather than the big bass I used to go for.
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 10:14:31 AM
Royc,do you believe the Philippines is not a third world country? Or you just deny it?
Gear not gears.
Granted some people cannot afford expensive gear,but it doesn't disprove the existence of hiyaw or whatever English term it is.
My point is,maraming dissenters na naiinggit lang dahil can't afford and I didn't say EVERYBODY.
Even if we are 3rd world. We do have a lot of nice gear now, especially electric guitars and boutique amps... thanks to Miks, Alex, Steve, Beng, Esse... pati si Tedi
I remember 10 years ago, when PRS guitars were rare and expensive... now there are a lot of JGs, Bakers, Yarons, Gibson custom shop historics.. hindi na napapansin ang prs.
How I wish may kalaro din sana ako sa acoustic lol...
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 10:18:39 AM
Royc,do you believe the Philippines is not a third world country? Or you just deny it?
Gear not gears.
Granted some people cannot afford expensive gear,but it doesn't disprove the existence of hiyaw or whatever English term it is.
My point is,maraming dissenters na naiinggit lang dahil can't afford and I didn't say EVERYBODY.
May I know your definition of third world?
I do not claim in my posts that there is no hiyaw. I just want a clear definition of it in musical terms.
So far, the discussions on this thread do not point to inggit, but are clarifications on what is hiyaw. I do not see the reason why you have to assume that maraming dissenters na naiinggit lang dahil can't afford. I suggest we avoid opinions like this.
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 10:22:20 AM
I think a double blind test is in order, of course kasama si firemodel, another person who believes in hiyaw, a professional electric guitarist, and a professional electric guitarist who is also a tone geek. All guitars (hopefully the same shape) should be set up to what FM55 thinks is the closest it can get to best, then all four play the guitars with the exact same amp, cable, and room. then all will test the guitars blind, and 1. say if the guitar is the hiyaw-claiming guitar, and 2. if they think they can't tell.
EB na to! :lol:
I support this suggestion. The guitarist should be someone who is really good, and can play the same piece consistently. The judges should be both guitarists and non-guitarist.
Post by: j-sonic on August 06, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
Since you obviously can't accept that the Phils is third world,patriotism after all is commendable,why don't you prove how that country is not third world.
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 10:56:23 AM
I think Hiyaw is like "note bloom".
My all time favorite builder has an article on this... please see link
http://www.esomogyi.com/tonal_bloom.pdf (http://www.esomogyi.com/tonal_bloom.pdf)
Hi Royce...
Sticking to Hiyaw...
Kindly read the article....
Let me know if it helps :)
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 11:21:37 AM
Hi Royce...
Sticking to Hiyaw...
Kindly read the article....
Let me know if it helps :)
Thanks Farseer! I will read it later and post my feedback :-)
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 11:24:40 AM
There have been several threads about hiyaw already and there have been a lot of dissenters on those threads. Right now,those dissenters may not be active on this forum but their behavior before is what I have been referring to.
Since you obviously can't accept that the Phils is third world,patriotism after all is commendable,why don't you prove how that country is not third world.
Yes, there were personal attacks in previous threads. I hope we avoid the same in this thread :-)
I resent using the term third world in this thread, assuming you are referring to poor countries, coz I believe such classification is irrelevant in this discussion. There are Filipinos that can afford an expensive guitar and there are Americans who can only afford a budget guitar.
Post by: Ralph_Petrucci on August 06, 2015, 11:43:47 AM
Post by: sonicassault on August 06, 2015, 11:52:54 AM
still waiting for alex's go signal for the amp testing in his house. :D
+1 :-D
Interesting writeup on the tonal bloom thing. I wonder if that can be induced by design, as to me it seems that the design helps in manifesting the phenomenon, but not exactly this design = tonal bloom. Though I do question the choice of room, as it might have changed the perception of things. Large rooms = reflections that may induce the tonal bloom effect but that means it's not a function of the guitar itself.
Post by: Ben Tsing Co on August 06, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
Why don't we ask him to make a video ^-^
Post by: red lights on August 06, 2015, 12:57:08 PM
asan na si Carlo Valle?
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 01:30:45 PM
Hi Royce...
Sticking to Hiyaw...
Kindly read the article....
Let me know if it helps :)
That is a very good article, well explained!
Interesting work on observing the different tonal characteristics instead of the tone when strummed as a whole. I usually do the latter, and might do a similar test on my guitar though I do not expect to hear a tonal bloom :-)
The explanation on tonal bloom was easy to understand, though I believe it was observed on acoustics. Would you know if similar tests were done on electric guitars?
I like the explanation on the metronome video, though I still have to watch it. IMO it could explain how the wood and other components of an electric guitar can influence the string vibration which can allow the wood's tonal characteristics to be captured by non-microphonic pickups.
Thanks for the link!
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 02:04:13 PM
Nice read on the "Tonal Bloom"
Why don't we ask him to make a video ^-^
I have owned and played a lot of Somogyis...
This is one of his guitars captured in video.
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 02:13:25 PM
That is a very good article, well explained!
Interesting work on observing the different tonal characteristics instead of the tone when strummed as a whole. I usually do the latter, and might do a similar test on my guitar though I do not expect to hear a tonal bloom :-)
The explanation on tonal bloom was easy to understand, though I believe it was observed on acoustics. Would you know if similar tests were done on electric guitars?
I like the explanation on the metronome video, though I still have to watch it. IMO it could explain how the wood and other components of an electric guitar can influence the string vibration which can allow the wood's tonal characteristics to be captured by non-microphonic pickups.
Thanks for the link!
Some electrics have it too...
:)
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 02:31:37 PM
I have owned and played a lot of Somogyis...
This is one of his guitars captured in video.:)
Post by: toybitz on August 06, 2015, 03:48:10 PM
Post by: changedmynametojimi on August 06, 2015, 04:00:18 PM
I have owned and played a lot of Somogyis...
This is one of his better guitars captured in video.:)
just wow. thank you for sharing this video and the tonal bloom article.
Post by: CeL1916 on August 06, 2015, 05:54:54 PM
That is an assumption devoid of supporting facts. People react not because they cannot afford expensive gears, but because of how some opinions stated are quite offensive. There are ways to spread your opinion without offending your readers.
There are also people who can afford expensive gears, but chose not to because they have other financial priorities. Do not expect a family man to buy expensive gears instead of spending for his family. Do not expect a working musician to spend hundreds of thousands while receiving a few hundred each gig.
Lastly, there is no third world point of view in this forum. The internet has broken geographical barriers and our views are no different from first world opinions. Those who really belong to the third world would not have the means to read this post and respond to it.
This!
@Fmfandude
Also wtf is a 3rd world opinion? Do we think civics is better than ferrari's because its the only thing we could afford? NO!
Post by: firemodel55 on August 06, 2015, 08:45:48 PM
I think Hiyaw is like "note bloom".
My all time favorite builder has an article on this... please see link
http://www.esomogyi.com/tonal_bloom.pdf (http://www.esomogyi.com/tonal_bloom.pdf)
Unfortunately, it is NOT. I am not an expert on acoustics but hiyaw does not come from a soundbox. As I mentioned, I was able to determine a solidbody to have hiyaw without having to plug in because the pickups were dead. So, technically, I had no soundbox anywhere.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 06, 2015, 08:53:54 PM
Alright. Seems quite fair to me. Another point though--we are in a third world country and we don't have much access to a lot of gears, especially high end stuff. So you really can't blame them if their beliefs are different. Lastly, the way I see it, people are having a hard time grasping the concept of "hiyaw" maybe because of how you put down others (gears, guitar techs, etc.) just because you believe what you have is superior. Try not to be condescending on your posts and maybe that might change a little of the people's perspective.
I rest my case. Gonna grab some more popcorn for this thread. :-D
As others can testify, I have by far been more polite nowadays compared to my past iteration. Ang problema kasi sa Pinoy, deadma kaya kailangan magkaroon ng condescending message at times.
Let me offer an alternative explanation it is possible those who do not want to understand or are 'having a hard time' cannot accept the idea that there is superior gear to what they have and use my attitude as an excuse. Its a form of sour graping.
My best proof is you. Hindi ka deadma at hindi mo naman inunsultong gitara at gear ko. Hindi ka rin nagmalaki ng equipment mo.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 06, 2015, 08:59:07 PM
I believe that most of the question here, mine included, is not about proving that hiyaw exists, but asking for an explanation on what it is exactly. Those who support hiyaw cannot seem to agree on what it is, based on what I have read in this post. It is like an abstract painting being interpreted by two persons, both saying it is beautiful, but interpreting it differently.
I do not agree that food is a good analogy. We use our sense of taste to judge food. On the other hand, a guitar is an instrument to create music. Music is appreciated by our sense of hearing. Music can be recorded. You cannot record taste.
Simple tanong at simpleng sagot lang kailangan ko sa iyo Royc:
Are you saying that your own personal LIVE guitar sound (your personal electric guitar into your own amp) after being recorded by whatever recording equipment you use and then posted in Youtube, sounds the same in fidelity and tone after being played back in Youtube?
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 09:18:51 PM
Simple tanong at simpleng sagot lang kailangan ko sa iyo Royc:
Are you saying that your own personal LIVE guitar sound (your personal electric guitar into your own amp) after being recorded by whatever recording equipment you use and then posted in Youtube, sounds the same in fidelity and tone after being played back in Youtube?
No, there will be losses and it will not sound the same on youtube. That is why I repeatedly suggested in this thread that the recording be saved as a lossless audio file, and presumably on a good recording setup.
Post by: royc on August 06, 2015, 09:38:45 PM
Sarap pakinggan ng video :-)
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 10:08:03 PM
Unfortunately, it is NOT. I am not an expert on acoustics but hiyaw does not come from a soundbox. As I mentioned, I was able to determine a solidbody to have hiyaw without having to plug in because the pickups were dead. So, technically, I had no soundbox anywhere.
He just used soundbox since its an acoustic... can be interchanged like sound coming out of the solid body.
I thought the concept of hiyaw is when you bend the strings the guitar sound swells or it blooms?
:)
Post by: farseer on August 06, 2015, 10:13:09 PM
Sarap pakinggan ng video :-)
Yeah, this video of Martin Simpson w/ a Traugott is also good... the notes bloom nicely
Sayang I sold all my Traugotts na... the neck shape doesnt fit my hands well...
Like Somogyis, they are in my opinion some of the best sounding guitars...
:)
Post by: gandydancer123 on August 06, 2015, 10:26:50 PM
:wink:
Post by: farseer on August 07, 2015, 12:34:22 AM
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/note-bloom.1351531/
:wink:
Funny how I describe the Somogyi camp as having the "tube sag" quality just a few weeks ago to my good friend and fellow AGFer Dante.
:)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 06:14:22 AM
No, there will be losses and it will not sound the same on youtube. That is why I repeatedly suggested in this thread that the recording be saved as a lossless audio file, and presumably on a good recording setup.
And that's why I am suggesting you come over so we don't have to record and afford a good recording setup which you are not willing to pay for anyway.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 06:27:14 AM
Even if we are 3rd world. We do have a lot of nice gear now, especially electric guitars and boutique amps... thanks to Miks, Alex, Steve, Beng, Esse... pati si Tedi
I remember 10 years ago, when PRS guitars were rare and expensive... now there are a lot of JGs, Bakers, Yarons, Gibson custom shop historics.. hindi na napapansin ang prs.
How I wish may kalaro din sana ako sa acoustic lol...
I think the point being made is that there are only very FEW of us on that level and the great majority and even mean are on 3rd world standards in terms of equipment. For example, in Japan I got to play a real 58,59,60 into a trainwreck.
In New York, I got to play thru George Lynch's trainwreck using a Derrig. Sa Japan, USA made guitars outsell asian made guitars by a factor of four. Ang dami rin nila stock ng Fender Custom Shop and Gibson Historics that number into the hundreds.
In Guitar Planet Tokyo alone, they have the biggest number of Bakers on display. I got to even try a Giffen and two nik hubers side by side which is a rare feat. Not to mention several PRS Private Stock and Tylers.
In fact, 90% of my gear cannot be found in the Philippines.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 06:30:23 AM
Yes, there were personal attacks in previous threads. I hope we avoid the same in this thread :-)
I resent using the term third world in this thread, assuming you are referring to poor countries, coz I believe such classification is irrelevant in this discussion. There are Filipinos that can afford an expensive guitar and there are Americans who can only afford a budget guitar.
Yeah but when you consider the mean and the average standard. Malayo pa rin. For example, ilan Pinoy ang may totoong burst compared to Americano na may totoong burst? Ilan dito may Dumble? Alam mo ba na ang standard ng maraming Pinoy dito para sa gitara ay galing pier?
Post by: royc on August 07, 2015, 06:37:14 AM
And that's why I am suggesting you come over so we don't have to record and afford a good recording setup which you are not willing to pay for anyway.
Thanks for the invite, but I live in Lucena now and it would be a challenge to explain to my wife why I would drive a few hundred kilometers to experience your gear.
I believe the audiophiles when they say that lossless format is acceptable, though I have no motivation to pay for that recording. I will just trust the result of the blind test if it pushes through.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 06:40:29 AM
That is an assumption devoid of supporting facts. People react not because they cannot afford expensive gears, but because of how some opinions stated are quite offensive. There are ways to spread your opinion without offending your readers.
There are also people who can afford expensive gears, but chose not to because they have other financial priorities. Do not expect a family man to buy expensive gears instead of spending for his family. Do not expect a working musician to spend hundreds of thousands while receiving a few hundred each gig.
Lastly, there is no third world point of view in this forum. The internet has broken geographical barriers and our views are no different from first world opinions. Those who really belong to the third world would not have the means to read this post and respond to it.
Di ba nga kung offended na hindi pa narinig ang equipment, ang tawag doon ay inggit? I have other financial priorities to such as Cancer Treatment. I am not expecting working musicians to spend hundreds of thousands. No way. But that does not mean that great gear will come at a working price.
On the other hand, I am trying to prove that great gear can come in the form of lesser equipment. Offhand, I think mayroon naman pero majority of great gear favors a larger budget.
The Scenario below is the difference between a third world country and a first world country
Pinoy with internet: Forum oriented discussion about what is cheap. A lot of discussion on WHAT IF guitar. Ano ba mas maganda local or china na gitara? Tone is in the hands at nasa indyan iyan.
Japanese First world with internet: 1) See announcement of new Gear & Amp on the internet, 2) Go to guitar store in Tokyo the next day and suddenly readily available and go back home to tell friends on forum, 3) Comeback the next day with friends and greeted with a barrage of one-offs and limited editions not announced on the internet, 4) they buy the guitar while Pinoy is still stuck in forum
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 06:42:11 AM
Thanks for the invite, but I live in Lucena now and it would be a challenge to explain to my wife why I would drive a few hundred kilometers to experience your gear.
I believe the audiophiles when they say that lossless format is acceptable, though I have no motivation to pay for that recording. I will just trust the result of the blind test if it pushes through.
I flew to Japan to test a 58,59 and 60 burst. But now that you mention it, tell me when you are in Manila so I can invite you over and cook you some lunch or dinner.
Post by: royc on August 07, 2015, 07:45:31 AM
I flew to Japan to test a 58,59 and 60 burst. But now that you mention it, tell me when you are in Manila so I can invite you over and cook you some lunch or dinner.
Thanks! I'll contact you when we are there and have extra time :-)
Post by: royc on August 07, 2015, 08:13:46 AM
Yeah but when you consider the mean and the average standard. Malayo pa rin. For example, ilan Pinoy ang may totoong burst compared to Americano na may totoong burst? Ilan dito may Dumble? Alam mo ba na ang standard ng maraming Pinoy dito para sa gitara ay galing pier?
I won't be surprised, given that the minimum wage in America is much higher than in the Philippines and they have access to better guitars. I would not blame pinoy guitarists for that though.
Yes, I see many local guitarists recommend MIJ guitars because they believe that these affordable guitars have better workmanship and quality vs brand new China-made guitars sold in local music stores. It only goes to show that local guitarists would prefer to buy the best guitar that they can afford.
I strongly believe that if someone will pay for their choice of guitar, and there is no spending limit, they would ask around for advise on the best and probably choose guitars similar to yours.
I am a member of several local fb-based musician forums, and it is common to see posts asking for the best guitar within their budget. Unfortunately, some of their budget falls on what we consider to be entry level guitars. Do we tell them to stop dreaming coz they cannot afford a good guitar? No. We help them find an acceptable guitar that fits their budget. If their available cash is too low to buy a decent guitar, we tell them to save more to buy a better guitar than what they can afford today.
You too can help them by identifying budget guitars that sound good, without expecting that they are as good as yours. Pinoy bands are not quite popular today. I help kids find a good guitar that they can afford, hoping that some day they will form a band and create great music. It is the same reason why I teach guitars to beginners even though I may not be as good as the guitar masters here. I realize that these masters may be too busy to teach so I do my part to help. It is no longer about me. I am already fifty. It is about them.
Post by: farseer on August 07, 2015, 09:14:25 AM
I think the point being made is that there are only very FEW of us on that level and the great majority and even mean are on 3rd world standards in terms of equipment. For example, in Japan I got to play a real 58,59,60 into a trainwreck.
In New York, I got to play thru George Lynch's trainwreck using a Derrig. Sa Japan, USA made guitars outsell asian made guitars by a factor of four. Ang dami rin nila stock ng Fender Custom Shop and Gibson Historics that number into the hundreds.
In Guitar Planet Tokyo alone, they have the biggest number of Bakers on display. I got to even try a Giffen and two nik hubers side by side which is a rare feat. Not to mention several PRS Private Stock and Tylers.
In fact, 90% of my gear cannot be found in the Philippines.
Well, it is the reverse for me.
I was visited by the owner of Woodsound, best Korean acoustic store (Somogyi, Traugott, Olson, Kostal dealer)
He stayed one night in the Philippines just to check out my gear lol.
He says I have better inventory than the best stores in the US/Japan haha.
A Singaporean dealer will also visit me soon lol
Post by: royc on August 07, 2015, 09:38:43 AM
Well, it is the reverse for me.
I was visited by the owner of Woodsound, best Korean acoustic store (Somogyi, Traugott, Olson, Kostal dealer)
He stayed one night in the Philippines just to check out my gear lol.
He says I have better inventory than the best stores in the US/Japan haha.
A Singaporean dealer will also visit me soon lol
Perhaps you can bring your gear to the test that they are planning. It would be awesome to have the best sounding guitars in one room!
Post by: sonicassault on August 07, 2015, 09:44:03 AM
Perhaps you can bring your gear to the test that they are planning. It would be awesome to have the best sounding guitars in one room!
oo nga kahit ano pa ang resulta ng hiyaw factor masaya pa rin yung may tone party! :)
Post by: farseer on August 07, 2015, 09:49:32 AM
Perhaps you can bring your gear to the test that they are planning. It would be awesome to have the best sounding guitars in one room!
I dont claim I have the best sounding gear lol
And you may also visit me if you want to try them.
:)
Post by: royc on August 07, 2015, 09:57:24 AM
I dont claim I have the best sounding gear lol
And you may also visit me if you want to try them.
:)
Okay let me rephrase that. You are one of the Filipinos with great sounding gear :-)
Thanks din sa invite! One of these days magkakaron din ako ng time masubukan ang magagandang gamit nyo. Sa gamit pa lang ni Tom nalulula na ko nahihiya akong hawakan I feel I am not worthy haha!
Post by: throwinshapes on August 07, 2015, 09:58:43 AM
I'm a student, both academically and as a musician. I consider myself to have pretty decent gear (mostly around the midrange in terms of guitars and amps, but with bowteek pedals) and I recognize the importance of good tone. I'm very happy with the gear I have, which is earned as the result of many years of saving my weekly allowance. Personally, I like my midrangey, high gain lead tone which is pretty similar to Greg Howe's. However, once I can dial it in properly (or some approximation of it), then as a MUSICIAN, it's my duty to forget about it and focus on the music. I think the pursuit of good tone is something we're all involved in as gearheads, but if it gets to this point where we're butting heads about semantics and needlessly complicated explanations regarding this apparently inexplicable phenomenon called 'hiyaw', then I have to wonder what our priorities really are as guitarists.
I'm not trying to disprove anyone or bash anyone here — far from it. I've just been around Philmusic for several years and have seen these kinds of threads pop up, and instead of wracking my brain about the existence of 'hiyaw' or whatever, instead I worry more about my own musicality, e.g. phrasing, technique, and so on. At the end of the day, THAT'S what I feel is most important. Here's my point: a indicator of good tone, IMO, is when it allows you to forget about it while you're playing in order to let you focus on the music. You don't have to think about it anymore because it's your own voice. To quote Zappa: "Shut up 'n' play yer guitar."
That being said, I'm iffy about the notion that good tone is universal. I believe it is far too personal and/or subjective a thing to narrow down to a certain set of criteria (i.e. Whether it has hiyaw or not).
Post by: officebiker on August 07, 2015, 11:39:14 AM
Here's my .02:Id also like to order this post in TV yellow, laminated hanging beside jorge's post.
I'm a student, both academically and as a musician. I consider myself to have pretty decent gear (mostly around the midrange in terms of guitars and amps, but with bowteek pedals) and I recognize the importance of good tone. I'm very happy with the gear I have, which is earned as the result of many years of saving my weekly allowance. Personally, I like my midrangey, high gain lead tone which is pretty similar to Greg Howe's. However, once I can dial it in properly (or some approximation of it), then as a MUSICIAN, it's my duty to forget about it and focus on the music. I think the pursuit of good tone is something we're all involved in as gearheads, but if it gets to this point where we're butting heads about semantics and needlessly complicated explanations regarding this apparently inexplicable phenomenon called 'hiyaw', then I have to wonder what our priorities really are as guitarists.
I'm not trying to disprove anyone or bash anyone here — far from it. I've just been around Philmusic for several years and have seen these kinds of threads pop up, and instead of wracking my brain about the existence of 'hiyaw' or whatever, instead I worry more about my own musicality, e.g. phrasing, technique, and so on. At the end of the day, THAT'S what I feel is most important. Here's my point: a indicator of good tone, IMO, is when it allows you to forget about it while you're playing in order to let you focus on the music. You don't have to think about it anymore because it's your own voice. To quote Zappa: "Shut up 'n' play yer guitar."
That being said, I'm iffy about the notion that good tone is universal. I believe it is far too personal and/or subjective a thing to narrow down to a certain set of criteria (i.e. Whether it has hiyaw or not).
Post by: j-sonic on August 07, 2015, 01:37:09 PM
Pag naman nabanggit na sa call center lang nagtatrabaho,andami ring nao-offend. Di naman masama kung call center agent ka lang,at least kumikita. Ang masama eh,obvious na naiinggit lang sa mga mas may pera.
Post by: randymarsh on August 07, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
Ang mahirap eh yung iba,la naman alam sa high end gear mahilig pang sumawsaw sa usapan. Wala namang problema kung masaya ka sa Ibanez mo na pinaghirapan mo ng sampung taon bago mabili. Wag na lang sumawsaw kung wala din namang substance ang sinasabi at flamebaiting lang.
Pag naman nabanggit na sa call center lang nagtatrabaho,andami ring nao-offend. Di naman masama kung call center agent ka lang,at least kumikita. Ang masama eh,obvious na naiinggit lang sa mga mas may pera.
Meron bang na-iinggit dito sa gamit ni Alex? Hindi ako for sure. LOL I've been buying $2k+ guitar every fortnight for the last 5 months with cash (Two Ibanez Jems, two Ibanez J-Customs, EBMM JPM, EBMM Axis, Washburn N7, Gibson R7), I can (if I wanted to) save up and purchase a guitar with HIYAW but rather have FUN PLAYING with cheaper guitars.
Kung pera lang ang pag-uusapan, hindi sa mayaman ako, just last December I traveled with my family to CA, USA (from Sydney) on business class tickets and did the road trip from San Diego to LA to SF to Dallas TX. We did all the touristy Legoland, Disney, Hollywood, Golden Gate bridge, NASA tour. We rented two Ford Mustangs for the trip. It cost me at least $20k for that trip and yet wala akong utang sa banko. I could have bought two HIYAW guitars instead. All I'm saying is porke disagree kami kay Alex, wala kaming pera at inggit lang kami. Si Atz nga na may ari ng Victoria Court nagdidisagree din kay Alex eh.
I do not find it exciting na magstrumstrum ng chords to FEEL the HIYAW. Sa ibang gitarista, masaya na kami na makabuo ng kanta and I think that should be the primary purpose of having a guitar.
Post by: j-sonic on August 07, 2015, 02:19:29 PM
Post by: CeL1916 on August 07, 2015, 02:37:43 PM
Ang mahirap eh yung iba,la naman alam sa high end gear mahilig pang sumawsaw sa usapan. Wala namang problema kung masaya ka sa Ibanez mo na pinaghirapan mo ng sampung taon bago mabili. Wag na lang sumawsaw kung wala din namang substance ang sinasabi at flamebaiting lang.
Pag naman nabanggit na sa call center lang nagtatrabaho,andami ring nao-offend. Di naman masama kung call center agent ka lang,at least kumikita. Ang masama eh,obvious na naiinggit lang sa mga mas may pera.
Pangalanan mo kaya, yung hugot mo iba eh.
Post by: royc on August 07, 2015, 02:40:16 PM
Pangalanan mo kaya, yung hugot mo iba eh.
Yups name them. Konti lang naman kaming matyaga magcomment dito :-)
Post by: j-sonic on August 07, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
Ngayon,i-compare niyo kay Firemodel na hindi Punk music ang basehan para sa guitar tone.
Post by: blackgino77 on August 07, 2015, 03:54:31 PM
Wag na,baka i-ban pa ko ng mods. Nasa call center din yung mods,at yung mga dissenter na nasa call center,alam na nila kung sino sila. Basahin niyo na lang yung mga comments na kontra,tingnan niyo yung profile at iresearch niyo ang mga posts. Makikita niyo na wala naman hilig yung mga yun kundi punk,underground at kung ano ano pa na di naman talaga guitar tone ang habol. At mga China lang daw ang gitara.
Ngayon,i-compare niyo kay Firemodel na hindi Punk music ang basehan para sa guitar tone.
Laki ng galit mo sa mga nagwowork sa call center and sa mga nasa underground/punk scene a. Easy lang man. :-D
Post by: j-sonic on August 07, 2015, 05:30:28 PM
Post by: officebiker on August 07, 2015, 05:44:18 PM
Post by: pallas on August 07, 2015, 06:20:15 PM
All in all from what ive read is all about gears made in Mt. Olympus and forged by Zeus himself and somehow was given to only a few privileged people who have money and BY convenience ALSO became THE authority on tone and stating it as UNIVERSAL.
The one tone to rule em all.
In photography remember that guy who took a shot of that lone vehicle trying to outrun a mushroom cloud of hellfire and brimstone when Mt. Pinatubo went berserk or that photo of a girl running naked her skin burned by napalm. That to me is visual HIYAW. You dont need to be there. THE shot takes you there. I sure do beleive its the same with hair raising tone AND can be felt even on my crappy 80s boom box that i had when i was 13 listening to Money for Nothing for the first time.
And please dont deny us that thing we enjoy the most no matter how elusive it is or financially challenged our instruments are. We do experience it. It might be fleeting.....but its there. Telling us to dig deeper.
Rest in peace Ali Farka Toure if only he had a dumble and a baker. I miss you Eddie Hazel i wish you had the experience playing a bogner while Someone told you to play it like your mother died in Maggot Brain. J Mascis still breathing still playing the same ol same purple plexis sounding phenominal on the live version of Thumb on an mp3 file played thru cheapo earphones. Funny though when i saw them live that song wasnt the same HIYAW compared to when I went home and listened to it again.
Nope.
You can all argue or discuss but please change the thread title.
There goes my break time.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 07:38:16 PM
Here's my .02:
I'm a student, both academically and as a musician. I consider myself to have pretty decent gear (mostly around the midrange in terms of guitars and amps, but with bowteek pedals) and I recognize the importance of good tone. I'm very happy with the gear I have, which is earned as the result of many years of saving my weekly allowance. Personally, I like my midrangey, high gain lead tone which is pretty similar to Greg Howe's. However, once I can dial it in properly (or some approximation of it), then as a MUSICIAN, it's my duty to forget about it and focus on the music. I think the pursuit of good tone is something we're all involved in as gearheads, but if it gets to this point where we're butting heads about semantics and needlessly complicated explanations regarding this apparently inexplicable phenomenon called 'hiyaw', then I have to wonder what our priorities really are as guitarists.
I'm not trying to disprove anyone or bash anyone here — far from it. I've just been around Philmusic for several years and have seen these kinds of threads pop up, and instead of wracking my brain about the existence of 'hiyaw' or whatever, instead I worry more about my own musicality, e.g. phrasing, technique, and so on. At the end of the day, THAT'S what I feel is most important. Here's my point: a indicator of good tone, IMO, is when it allows you to forget about it while you're playing in order to let you focus on the music. You don't have to think about it anymore because it's your own voice. To quote Zappa: "Shut up 'n' play yer guitar."
That being said, I'm iffy about the notion that good tone is universal. I believe it is far too personal and/or subjective a thing to narrow down to a certain set of criteria (i.e. Whether it has hiyaw or not).
Wasn't talking about being a musician that's a separate topic altogether ... My goal was to introduce the notion that a UNIVERSAL narrow set of criteria exists for great guitar gear. And it is controversial!
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 07:46:31 PM
Meron bang na-iinggit dito sa gamit ni Alex? Hindi ako for sure. LOL I've been buying $2k+ guitar every fortnight for the last 5 months with cash (Two Ibanez Jems, two Ibanez J-Customs, EBMM JPM, EBMM Axis, Washburn N7, Gibson R7), I can (if I wanted to) save up and purchase a guitar with HIYAW but rather have FUN PLAYING with cheaper guitars.
Kung pera lang ang pag-uusapan, hindi sa mayaman ako, just last December I traveled with my family to CA, USA (from Sydney) on business class tickets and did the road trip from San Diego to California to SF to Dallas TX. We did all the touristy Legoland, Disney, Hollywood, Golden Gate bridge, NASA tour. We rented two Ford Mustangs for the trip. It cost me at least $20k for that trip and yet wala akong utang sa banko. I could have bought two HIYAW guitars instead. All I'm saying is porke disagree kami kay Alex, wala kaming pera at inggit lang kami. Si Atz nga na may ari ng Victoria Court nagdidisagree din kay Alex eh.
I do not find it exciting na magstrumstrum ng chords to FEEL the HIYAW. Sa ibang gitarista, masaya na kami na makabuo ng kanta and I think that should be the primary purpose of having a guitar.
For the record, I don't think inggit kayo ni Atz. Its the guys with an axe to grind against and insult me who have not taken the effort to hear what I am saying are a class of their own. Inggit ba? I don't know for sure and its a possibility. Must be pride or other stuff. Who knows what goes on in their own mind?
Well considering I spent the same amount for chemotherapy last year.... I'd say we are even. :)
I mean kung makabuo lang ng kanta, we can do it with almost any piece of gear pati santa mesa pero whats the fun in that? Wala naman akong alam na gitarista na hindi makakagamit ng RJ guitar para tapusin ang gig. Why didn't you buy an RJ equivalent every fortnight? Because the guitars you bought were more than special versus the low budget guitar stuff.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 07, 2015, 07:56:10 PM
I won't be surprised, given that the minimum wage in America is much higher than in the Philippines and they have access to better guitars. I would not blame pinoy guitarists for that though.
(I am NOT blaming the pinoy guitarist. I am BLAMING the mass of Pinoys who have poor taste and do not have the education to spend and enjoy good music. Whew! That being said, wala talaga ganyan siguro ang democrazy. They would rather be singers rather than guitarists.)
Yes, I see many local guitarists recommend MIJ guitars because they believe that these affordable guitars have better workmanship and quality vs brand new China-made guitars sold in local music stores. It only goes to show that local guitarists would prefer to buy the best guitar that they can afford.
I strongly believe that if someone will pay for their choice of guitar, and there is no spending limit, they would ask around for advise on the best and probably choose guitars similar to yours.
(Don't get me wrong. I am NOT just espousing expensive guitars kasi may mga expensive guitars AND MARAMI rin na panget ang tunog at walang hiyaw.)
I am a member of several local fb-based musician forums, and it is common to see posts asking for the best guitar within their budget. Unfortunately, some of their budget falls on what we consider to be entry level guitars. Do we tell them to stop dreaming coz they cannot afford a good guitar? No. We help them find an acceptable guitar that fits their budget. If their available cash is too low to buy a decent guitar, we tell them to save more to buy a better guitar than what they can afford today.
(If it was between an SX and an RJ, I would tell them and its just my opinion to save up more for used Jap. In effect, I am telling them to delay purchase because I feel an above average decent guitar is very important for them to start on.)
You too can help them by identifying budget guitars that sound good, without expecting that they are as good as yours. Pinoy bands are not quite popular today. I help kids find a good guitar that they can afford, hoping that some day they will form a band and create great music. It is the same reason why I teach guitars to beginners even though I may not be as good as the guitar masters here. I realize that these masters may be too busy to teach so I do my part to help. It is no longer about me. I am already fifty. It is about them.
(Unfortunately, the odds seem to be higher one expensive guitars. Can't figure out exactly why but I believe the expensive guitars have luthiers behind them who are willing to spend more on better wood. But there is still a large percentage of their output not up there in terms of great sounding with hiyaw.)
Post by: CeL1916 on August 07, 2015, 08:54:14 PM
If you really have to ask if you have to ground the bridge on your Les Pulpol,then why are you commenting on a topic you can't even fathom? Tangamuch?
Ako ba? Well first hindi ako call center agent, second even if i was, whats wrong with that?
Well i dont care if alex is preaching hiyaw or whatever voodoo his guitar has. Im only throwing jabs at him for dissing mang rey saying hes not "quality" when he hast even tried him,( eh siya tong laging nagsasabi na itry muna namin bago mag opinion) of course mang rey is no dan erlewine Pero he has always been our go to guy and makes our guitar (which we use and play) decent.
Second his rant that pinoy guitar techs doesnt deserve to be called "luthier" because theyre not graduates of "guitar making schools" in US. Is hilarious. Yung mga sinaunang luthiers noon na gumagawa ng lutes graduate ba? Parang di mo pala pwede tawaging musikero ang sarili mo kung di ka graduate ng music school.
Well, sorry kung di ko alam kung dapat iground yung bridge sa pot. Tumutugtog lang ako, recently lang nag try mag wire. Aminado ako sa hindi ko alam at di ako nahihiya magtanong. Pero di yun kawalang karapatan sumali sa isang topic. So pag di politiko bawal sumali sa political topic?
Oh well, kung ako nga yun, sorry kung di ako expert sa gitara tsong, sa ibang bagay may alam ako baka gusto mo.
Post by: guitarbrat on August 08, 2015, 12:21:58 AM
I dont claim I have the best sounding gear lolAny experience on Beauregard guitars sir farseer? I'm sure Mr. Somogyi did a great job teaching him? I just love Antoine Dofour's tone.
And you may also visit me if you want to try them.
:)
Post by: firemodel55 on August 08, 2015, 12:43:57 AM
Ako ba? Well first hindi ako call center agent, second even if i was, whats wrong with that?
Well i dont care if alex is preaching hiyaw or whatever voodoo his guitar has. Im only throwing jabs at him for dissing mang rey saying hes not "quality" when he hast even tried him,( eh siya tong laging nagsasabi na itry muna namin bago mag opinion) of course mang rey is no dan erlewine Pero he has always been our go to guy and makes our guitar (which we use and play) decent.
(Ok. I will leave it at that. I will respect your opinion.)
Second his rant that pinoy guitar techs doesnt deserve to be called "luthier" because theyre not graduates of "guitar making schools" in US. Is hilarious. Yung mga sinaunang luthiers noon na gumagawa ng lutes graduate ba? Parang di mo pala pwede tawaging musikero ang sarili mo kung di ka graduate ng music school.
(I will stick by this. They never earned a degree to be called 'luthier'. Ano akala mo ang typical luthier sa USA, Europe, Japan and in the rest of the first world countries mas kaunti ang experience and kaalaman kaysa mga Pinoy? Magugulat dahil mas marami talaga silang alam. Sour graping ka lang dahil ang mga guitar repair men dito on an average are not as well schooled or proficient in their craft.
Given that fact, I have to be content with what is locally available just like you. But I never in my mind will think they will be equal.)
Well, sorry kung di ko alam kung dapat iground yung bridge sa pot. Tumutugtog lang ako, recently lang nag try mag wire. Aminado ako sa hindi ko alam at di ako nahihiya magtanong. Pero di yun kawalang karapatan sumali sa isang topic. So pag di politiko bawal sumali sa political topic?
(Just an advice on soldering. Buy the best soldering gun and solder you can afford. Para mas madali mag ground ang bridge sa pot. Sana mas mataas na wattage because you need a lot of solder to sticke to the pot for a solid connection.)
Oh well, kung ako nga yun, sorry kung di ako expert sa gitara tsong, sa ibang bagay may alam ako baka gusto mo.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 08, 2015, 01:02:26 AM
Okay.
All in all from what ive read is all about gears made in Mt. Olympus and forged by Zeus himself and somehow was given to only a few privileged people who have money and BY convenience ALSO became THE authority on tone and stating it as UNIVERSAL.
The one tone to rule em all.
In photography remember that guy who took a shot of that lone vehicle trying to outrun a mushroom cloud of hellfire and brimstone when Mt. Pinatubo went berserk or that photo of a girl running naked her skin burned by napalm. That to me is visual HIYAW. You dont need to be there. THE shot takes you there. I sure do beleive its the same with hair raising tone AND can be felt even on my crappy 80s boom box that i had when i was 13 listening to Money for Nothing for the first time.
And please dont deny us that thing we enjoy the most no matter how elusive it is or financially challenged our instruments are. We do experience it. It might be fleeting.....but its there. Telling us to dig deeper.
Rest in peace Ali Farka Toure if only he had a dumble and a baker. I miss you Eddie Hazel i wish you had the experience playing a bogner while Someone told you to play it like your mother died in Maggot Brain. J Mascis still breathing still playing the same ol same purple plexis sounding phenominal on the live version of Thumb on an mp3 file played thru cheapo earphones. Funny though when i saw them live that song wasnt the same HIYAW compared to when I went home and listened to it again.
Nope.
You can all argue or discuss but please change the thread title.
There goes my break time.
Unfortunately, I cannot tell you to JUST dig in. Either a guitar has hiyaw or it does not. As much as I want to say that it is a common occurrence that is easily experienced, it is NOT. I wish it were otherwise.
I wish it were less than something forged in Mount Olympus or Asgard. I wish it were something less than willed by the Odin Father. I wish it were not as unique as 'my precious'. But alas, it is not.
Which brings me to an important point why I am very vocal about this advocacy. Rather than be caught up with the latest new models of guitars, latest luthiers, latest new item posted in the classifieds, latest paint and hardware option on the latest Ibanez;
guitarists should realize that there is a way way way much higher standard than what the Guitar Industry puts out as products. At this point in time, they cannot admit that only less than 5% of their output has that mojo. And they rather suck your money
with the latest gimmickry and CAD designed look. At the end of the day, we should hold them responsible for producing bad sounding guitars. Kasi matatawa ka kung may ipakita ka sa kanila na mas magandang tunog na the same model, tameme lang sila.
Post by: Thesurjen on August 08, 2015, 09:31:13 AM
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Post by: officebiker on August 08, 2015, 10:22:45 AM
PS: To j-sonic , I work in a BPO pero in house ha at back office toh mge beks, at mahilig din ako sa punk/underground pero mahilig din ako sa ibang music tulad ni James Taylor - diba sya kumanta nung "Whenever I see your smiling face, selling lanterns on the street, I remember the boy in his manger as he sleep...."
:)
Post by: chipsdelight on August 10, 2015, 09:28:52 AM
Ang mahirap eh yung iba,la naman alam sa high end gear mahilig pang sumawsaw sa usapan. Wala namang problema kung masaya ka sa Ibanez mo na pinaghirapan mo ng sampung taon bago mabili. Wag na lang sumawsaw kung wala din namang substance ang sinasabi at flamebaiting lang.
Pag naman nabanggit na sa call center lang nagtatrabaho,andami ring nao-offend. Di naman masama kung call center agent ka lang,at least kumikita. Ang masama eh,obvious na naiinggit lang sa mga mas may pera.
Naks! LANG! Ikaw na ang astig tol! Hindi ako nagtatrabaho sa call center pero mukhang sobrang sabihin ang word na "LANG". We all praise you bro!! Ikaw na!
Post by: Crisul on August 11, 2015, 05:38:42 PM
I use a cort m200, a 20 watt SS laney amp, and my pedals are: mooer ultra drive, zoom g1x, and a flashback delay.generic cables.
Hindi ko maachieve yung hiyaw? :cry:
Post by: sonicassault on August 11, 2015, 05:52:31 PM
Makikisawsaw lang haha.based sa explanation ng hiyaw ni firemodel, either may hiyaw yung cort mo or wala, hindi siya "naaachieve," so no :lol: nice delay pedal tho :-D
I use a cort m200, a 20 watt SS laney amp, and my pedals are: mooer ultra drive, zoom g1x, and a flashback delay.generic cables.
Hindi ko maachieve yung hiyaw? :cry:
Post by: Crisul on August 12, 2015, 08:02:42 AM
So inherent pala ang hiyaw, kala ko kasi dapat mahalin gear. Hindi ko lang nabasa masyado thread hehe.
Pero imho with all due respect to sir firemodel no. 1 pa rin sa akin musicality kesa hiyaw na yan.but nice na napaguusapan mga bagay bagay na to.
Post by: chipsdelight on August 12, 2015, 08:11:50 AM
Makikisawsaw lang haha.
I use a cort m200, a 20 watt SS laney amp, and my pedals are: mooer ultra drive, zoom g1x, and a flashback delay.generic cables.
Hindi ko maachieve yung hiyaw? :cry:
Sabi nga ni FM55 na never siyang gumamit ng solid state na amp sa buong buhay nya. Kaya hindi mo maaachieve ang "hiyaw" sa isang solid state amp.
Post by: sonicassault on August 12, 2015, 08:42:40 AM
Hahaha thanks sir sonic
So inherent pala ang hiyaw, kala ko kasi dapat mahalin gear. Hindi ko lang nabasa masyado thread hehe.
Pero imho with all due respect to sir firemodel no. 1 pa rin sa akin musicality kesa hiyaw na yan.but nice na napaguusapan mga bagay bagay na to.
based sa hiyaw theorem (naks hahaha) mas mataas lang yung chance na yung mamahalin na gitara ay may hiyaw, dahil sa superior choice of materials at workmanship. pwede naman mag-exist ang hiyaw sa low-end na gitara pero lakas tira lakas tsamba yun. :-D
Post by: royc on August 12, 2015, 08:44:22 AM
Hahaha thanks sir sonic
So inherent pala ang hiyaw, kala ko kasi dapat mahalin gear. Hindi ko lang nabasa masyado thread hehe.
Pero imho with all due respect to sir firemodel no. 1 pa rin sa akin musicality kesa hiyaw na yan.but nice na napaguusapan mga bagay bagay na to.
If you want to buy a guitar with Alex's hiyaw, you have to bring Alex with you. Others who believe in hiyaw have a different hiyaw in mind, based on their explanations.
Post by: sonicassault on August 12, 2015, 09:07:25 AM
If you want to buy a guitar with Alex's hiyaw, you have to bring Alex with you. Others who believe in hiyaw have a different hiyaw in mind, based on their explanations.
Or si sir Arie :lol:
Post by: gandydancer123 on August 12, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
Post by: sonicassault on August 12, 2015, 09:59:22 AM
when buying guitars, for us simple folk who cant really spend on top shelf stuff...try to find used "players" guitars...those #1's, workhorses...usually they are the ones that feel really great to play...
I've always felt that the best guitar for any person is like Les Paul the guitarist's own Les Paul. a decent quality guitar, with mods, upgrades and all.
and yes, musicality pa rin ang number one, but I think yung endeavor ni firemodel purely sa tone, much like an engineer would try to find the best Neve-like preamp or something.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 12, 2015, 01:04:01 PM
Hahaha thanks sir sonic
So inherent pala ang hiyaw, kala ko kasi dapat mahalin gear. Hindi ko lang nabasa masyado thread hehe.
Pero imho with all due respect to sir firemodel no. 1 pa rin sa akin musicality kesa hiyaw na yan.but nice na napaguusapan mga bagay bagay na to.
Yes it is inherent in the wood. I think a moderately price can have it BUT it seems to be more present in more expensive guitars.
Post by: gandydancer123 on August 12, 2015, 01:28:05 PM
Post by: officebiker on August 12, 2015, 02:41:42 PM
Post by: pallas on August 12, 2015, 03:58:43 PM
Unfortunately, I cannot tell you to JUST dig in. Either a guitar has hiyaw or it does not. As much as I want to say that it is a common occurrence that is easily experienced, it is NOT. I wish it were otherwise.
I wish it were less than something forged in Mount Olympus or Asgard. I wish it were something less than willed by the Odin Father. I wish it were not as unique as 'my precious'. But alas, it is not.
Which brings me to an important point why I am very vocal about this advocacy. Rather than be caught up with the latest new models of guitars, latest luthiers, latest new item posted in the classifieds, latest paint and hardware option on the latest Ibanez;
guitarists should realize that there is a way way way much higher standard than what the Guitar Industry puts out as products. At this point in time, they cannot admit that only less than 5% of their output has that mojo. And they rather suck your money
with the latest gimmickry and CAD designed look. At the end of the day, we should hold them responsible for producing bad sounding guitars. Kasi matatawa ka kung may ipakita ka sa kanila na mas magandang tunog na the same model, tameme lang sila.
A guitar no matter what price range either has it or has not. Ok ako jan. just as long as im not funneled into your mindset that ONLY and NOT kanya kanya coz it is kanya kanya. Also UNIVERSAL quest for tone but the FORMULA varies.
Peace out.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 12, 2015, 08:23:13 PM
Sabi nga ni FM55 na never siyang gumamit ng solid state na amp sa buong buhay nya. Kaya hindi mo maaachieve ang "hiyaw" sa isang solid state amp.
Since Hiyaw is inherent in guitars, amps at best enhance or make it more obvious. But since amps are all different, they affect hiyaw differently but they can never put hiyaw in a guitar that does not have it.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 12, 2015, 09:09:40 PM
Ang Tone ay inimbento ng matatalino para pagtalunan ng mga ta.n.ga.
Ito ang paboritong statement ng mga bingi kasi hindi nila marinig ang Tone at kulang sila sa Talino para maintindihan ang Tone.
Post by: firemodel55 on August 12, 2015, 09:12:55 PM
A guitar no matter what price range either has it or has not. Ok ako jan. just as long as im not funneled into your mindset that ONLY and NOT kanya kanya coz it is kanya kanya. Also UNIVERSAL quest for tone but the FORMULA varies.
Peace out.
Well I can prove Hiyaw in different configurations of solid body guitars (which for me is the kanya kanya part) BUT the more important part is the UNIVERSAL existence of Hiyaw. I don't mean that it exists is ALL guitars but I mean that it separates the great guitars from the lousy ones.
Unfortunately, it is occurs rarely.
Post by: officebiker on August 13, 2015, 06:16:06 AM
Ito ang paboritong statement ng mga bingi kasi hindi nila marinig ang Tone at kulang sila sa Talino para maintindihan ang Tone.Bingi agad? Di ba pwedeng wala muna pera? haha
Post by: sonicassault on August 13, 2015, 08:41:33 AM
Ang Tone ay inimbento ng matatalino para pagtalunan ng mga ta.n.ga.
Actually, ang tone ay inimbento ng mga marketers para pagtalunan ng mga audio engineers :lol:
Post by: firemodel55 on August 13, 2015, 09:29:42 AM
Bingi agad? Di ba pwedeng wala muna pera? haha
Now that you put it that way, mukhang mas ok nga na walang pera muna kaysa bingi. :)
Post by: treblinkalovescene on August 13, 2015, 11:24:59 AM
Harmonic content
- Some pieces of wood have a character that others do not. ALL pieces of wood, even from the same tree, resonate differently and sound different from each other. Some blanks accentuate certain frequencies. Others accentuate all the "right" ones. I'm sure Paengkee (if he still posts here) has something to say about this given his audio background. It's not really a linear scale, but the mix of frequencies could range from horrible to absolutely pleasing.
- There is truth to be found in FM55's idea of universally pleasing tone, and psychoacoustics can back that up. To which extent, I'll be looking into.
Dimensionality
- I'm sure many of you have heard the term "airiness", even for solid bodied guitars. While I feel this may be somewhat related to the accentuation of the "right" frequencies (which I'll get back into once I review that psychoacoustic crap), only a select number of these "good" sounding guitars have THAT dimensionality. This is another wood-related thing.
Price and production scale
- While there are MANY instances of "cheaper" or "more accessible" guitars being more pleasing than expensive guitars, one has to understand that with bigger production numbers, you're a bigger slave to the luck of the draw unless you pay the premium for someone to actually source good sounding wood (real top-tier luthiers can tell the difference a lot of the time). Because of the scale of production and the time/quality/attention involved, prices shoot up. Don't be surprised if more expensive guitars are better on average.
Post by: pitongjerome on August 13, 2015, 12:25:23 PM
Post by: firemodel55 on August 13, 2015, 12:42:45 PM
Just wanna subscribe.. my first post again after a long while of lurking.. found a thread that is interesting! Of course nothing is more interesting than with fm55 in it.
I just want to say that I want you guys to own BETTER guitars than the crap that companies sell and market to you guys. When I spoke to the production manager of a well known USA made guitar, I asked him; surely you guys know that you can produce an exceptional sounding guitar.
How come the new stuff just are above average. He spoke back to me and told me that they would rather produce 80 above average guitars rather than one exceptional guitar and 99 below average guitars.
He continued on with his story. Since we are relatively new with our acoustic line in which the processes are not as much in control and determined as our years of experience in our solid body electric line, we are surprised and so is the founder when we sometimes produce an acoustic that makes him cry.
Go figure...
Post by: farseer on August 14, 2015, 10:51:14 AM
I have played several PRS acoustics and they are just average...
The only consistent builders I have came across so far are Jim Olson, Kevin Ryan, and Rod Schenk... they use CNC... their guitars have all been exceptional.
Ervin Somogyi, though my favorite luthier of all time, have consistency issues... he did a lot of experimentation... so his guitars do vary in tone depending on the era.
The Somogyi guitars I kept are just 4 serial numbers apart... the best 2 of the 7 I owned...
I continue to buy them hoping I get a Jumbo similar to the one I played in Japan 6 years ago... probably the best acoustic I have tried... was just crazy expensive even w/ all the wear and dinks...
:)
Post by: pitongjerome on August 14, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
I just want to say that I want you guys to own BETTER guitars than the crap that companies sell and market to you guys. When I spoke to the production manager of a well known USA made guitar, I asked him; surely you guys know that you can produce an exceptional sounding guitar.I agree with you, there are better guitars that we can own. But it's really a matter of whether you really want to own it. In my case, i have okay guitars that does the job. Can pull a six figure priced guitar but bought a good synth/keys instead..
How come the new stuff just are above average. He spoke back to me and told me that they would rather produce 80 above average guitars rather than one exceptional guitar and 99 below average guitars.
He continued on with his story. Since we are relatively new with our acoustic line in which the processes are not as much in control and determined as our years of experience in our solid body electric line, we are surprised and so is the founder when we sometimes produce an acoustic that makes him cry.
Go figure...
But time will come i will get an itch on guitars again and will remember this thread.
Though im wanting an EBMM guitar just because i havent had that guitar, and i want one with piezo.
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Post by: titser_marco on August 15, 2015, 11:25:50 AM
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Post by: firemodel55 on August 16, 2015, 11:58:53 AM
Curious lang, Alex: yung Yaron ba na nakita ko kay Arie may hiyaw ba?
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If its my Yaron, yes it has. But of all my guitars, my Baker firemodel 55 remains to have the most hiyaw.
Post by: titser_marco on August 17, 2015, 06:10:34 AM
Also, patry ng Yaron na amplified, LOL.
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Post by: gitaristadaw on August 17, 2015, 07:27:18 AM
Post by: royc on August 17, 2015, 08:30:29 AM
Dapat sumali dito si Carlo Valle! :-D
It would be interesting to read Carlo's views on hiyaw :-)
Post by: chipsdelight on August 17, 2015, 09:33:36 AM
It would be interesting to read Carlo's views on hiyaw :-)Hiyaw is in the pinggerz sasabihin nyan.
Post by: sonicassault on August 17, 2015, 11:19:58 AM
Hiyaw is in the pinggerz sasabihin nyan.
hampasin mo ng martilyo yung fingers tingnan natin kung walang pang hiyaw yan :lol:
Post by: chipsdelight on August 17, 2015, 12:52:29 PM
hampasin mo ng martilyo yung fingers tingnan natin kung walang pang hiyaw yan :lol:
:lol:.. Yan ang hiyaw na totoo at hindi na kailangan ng feelings o ng matagal na experience sa amps at gitara.
Post by: chernandez1 on August 17, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
Post by: titser_marco on August 17, 2015, 07:39:26 PM
Post by: analog.matt on August 18, 2015, 06:22:09 AM
Who's Carlo Valle?
kumbaga sa Philmusic, once in a while may interesting and emotional topic...where many participate and conversations end up highly charged.
siya naman yung point of focus ng ganung mga interesting topics sa isang page sa facebook.
marami sa mga members dito ay naroon din.
Post by: royc on August 18, 2015, 06:23:59 AM
Who's Carlo Valle?
Someone who believes that any guitar can sound good. He is active in fb. We disagreed on a lot of things though, specifically on how he defended his beliefs :-)
Post by: chuck_liddell on August 20, 2015, 07:03:33 AM
Eto kaya? May hiyaw?
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Post by: BlackandGoldLP on August 20, 2015, 07:20:37 AM
http://www.bgwguitars.com/data/fendercs13.htm
Eto kaya? May hiyaw?
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wow!..............the most expensive strat ever built........doesn't have a trem........
Post by: chuck_liddell on August 20, 2015, 07:22:34 AM
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Post by: sargento on August 20, 2015, 07:43:49 AM
kumbaga sa Philmusic, once in a while may interesting and emotional topic...where many participate and conversations end up highly charged.sir, member ka ba ng GPP?
siya naman yung point of focus ng ganung mga interesting topics sa isang page sa facebook.
marami sa mga members dito ay naroon din.
Post by: Ralph_Petrucci on August 20, 2015, 11:24:31 AM
sir, member ka ba ng GPP?
hindi kaya siya si...
Post by: sargento on August 24, 2015, 12:45:55 PM
friend ni Ormsby?
hindi kaya siya si...
Post by: qroon on August 26, 2015, 09:32:02 PM
http://www.bgwguitars.com/data/fendercs13.htm
Eto kaya? May hiyaw?
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Yung jewels and diamonds ay parang nasa games lang like Mage and Minions, he he he. Museum piece.
Post by: fretboard on August 27, 2015, 02:29:48 PM
kumbaga sa Philmusic, once in a while may interesting and emotional topic...where many participate and conversations end up highly charged.
siya naman yung point of focus ng ganung mga interesting topics sa isang page sa facebook.
marami sa mga members dito ay naroon din.
sya ang bespren mo sa GPP diba?
naliha na nga pala yung lump dun sa inassemble nya no?
Post by: tongski_02 on August 29, 2015, 11:37:39 PM
friend ni Ormsby?
lol!! :-P :-P :-P
sya nga. hahahaha
Post by: rye715 on September 01, 2015, 04:43:53 PM
Ito ang paboritong statement ng mga bingi kasi hindi nila marinig ang Tone at kulang sila sa Talino para maintindihan ang Tone.
Kulang sa talino ang nagsabi nito.
Panu nila maririnig eh bingi nga? Nakakakita ba ang bulag?
Talino raw ang kailangan para maintindihan ang Tone.
Kalimutan na ang tenga. Talino lang raw ok na.
Kumusta sa mga hindi bingi. Kailangan nyu raw magpakatalino.
Post by: firemodel55 on September 01, 2015, 10:45:35 PM
Kulang sa talino ang nagsabi nito.
Panu nila maririnig eh bingi nga? Nakakakita ba ang bulag?
(I was being sarcastic. Hindi nila ma amin na bingi sila. Alam mo Rye; kagaya mo hindi mo namin aaminin na bingi ka.)
Talino raw ang kailangan para maintindihan ang Tone.
Kalimutan na ang tenga. Talino lang raw ok na.
(Kailangan ng Talino para malaman na hindi mo alam ang Tone. Mga walang utak kasi marinig lang sa youtube; akala na nila alam nila ang tunog.)
Kumusta sa mga hindi bingi. Kailangan nyu raw magpakatalino.
Post by: pinoygooner on September 02, 2015, 10:18:38 AM
as a follow up, if it can't be recorded then does that mean that the only way to experience hiyaw is to either actually buy it or be lucky witnessing it live given its apparent rarity?
Post by: sonicassault on September 02, 2015, 10:41:11 AM
can hiyaw actually be recorded? just curious because quite obviously a lot of us do not have access to the high end gear firemodel might be referring to and quite simply, i just don't know what i'm missing.
as a follow up, if it can't be recorded then does that mean that the only way to experience hiyaw is to either actually buy it or be lucky witnessing it live given its apparent rarity?
hindi raw, and technically speaking, hindi talaga posible. as a recording enthusiast I can say that mics cannot record most "special" aural features of any instrument, even the finest. mics have character, as well as limited frequency ranges. not to mention that preamps and the recording medium itself (digital/tape) color the signal. and let's not even go to how a half inch difference in mic placement changes the sound of the recording. There's a reason why some engineers prefer recording Baby Taylors over really nice boutique acoustics, and that difference in tone just means a recording cannot pick up the finest nuances in instruments (which is what we assume "hiyaw" to be).
so yes, you have to be there. ang understanding ko sa "hiyaw" ay parang may acoustic/tactile aspect sya kahit electric guitar ang pinag-uusapan. based on what I read from FM anyway
Post by: Ben Tsing Co on September 02, 2015, 11:35:11 AM
can hiyaw actually be recorded? just curious because quite obviously a lot of us do not have access to the high end gear firemodel might be referring to and quite simply, i just don't know what i'm missing.
as a follow up, if it can't be recorded then does that mean that the only way to experience hiyaw is to either actually buy it or be lucky witnessing it live given its apparent rarity?
firemodel55 has given an open invitation to test his guitars with hiyaw and compare it to his guitar without hiyaw
Post by: sonicassault on September 02, 2015, 11:43:34 AM
firemodel55 has given an open invitation to test his guitars with hiyaw and compare it to his guitar without hiyaw
taga san ba si fm55? even if I end up not believing in hiyaw, at least makakahawak ako ng nice gear :lol:
Post by: Ben Tsing Co on September 02, 2015, 01:14:59 PM
taga san ba si fm55? even if I end up not believing in hiyaw, at least makakahawak ako ng nice gear :lol:
:lol:
I have no clue but I would like to take him up on his offer too :mrgreen:
Post by: LaXter on September 03, 2015, 12:33:09 PM
:lol:
I have no clue but I would like to take him up on his offer too :mrgreen:
GAS inducing lang yang trip na yan, yung tipo pa naman na mahirap mawala kasi nga high end gear na.
Pero if ever matuloy man yan pasama naman ako haha, I also happen to want to have some take on some of the Philippines finest gears :wave:
Post by: treblinkalovescene on September 03, 2015, 12:46:17 PM
Post by: j.nikko3123 on February 26, 2016, 02:41:14 AM
Post by: Skybox on February 26, 2016, 06:18:35 AM
Check out the TED Talk of Paul Reed Smith on tone.
It pretty much debunks the hiyaw concept. He says guitars are subtractive. 6 in and 5.9 out on a really special guitar. You cant have 6 in and 7 coming out.
Post by: firemodel55 on February 28, 2016, 09:07:24 AM
Nice necro..
Check out the TED Talk of Paul Reed Smith on tone.
It pretty much debunks the hiyaw concept. He says guitars are subtractive. 6 in and 5.9 out on a really special guitar. You cant have 6 in and 7 coming out.
Wanna bet? I currently have a 1991 PRS Custom 24 that beats the crap out of 99% of ALL PRS. Took me thirty years to find it. It has PLENTY of Hiyaw that a majority of PRS do NOT have.
I was lucky enough to be invited to the PRS Experience in Japan last year -- the only Pinoy to do so. I got to meet Paul and Marty. Shook hands with them AND Paul told me: WTF are you doin here having to fly all the way from Manila?LOL.
Anyway, my friend introduced me to PRS Private Stock Production dude head honcho that I will NOT name. So, I had to spend some time with him because I was one of the only few capable of English. We spent several minutes debating why there were so many bad sounding Private Stock...
To cut thru the B.S., my message take out was they rather produced 90 above average guitars and 10 lousy guitars than to produce 1 exceptional guitar and 99 lousy guitars. At this point in time, Paul has nailed that consistency down pat on his solid body line.
But, today since PRS is still relatively new in producing their acoustic lines, it just makes Paul cry when one exceptional acoustic comes off the line.
So, before you try to disprove what I say: a) Listen to more guitars in person and b) Don't immediately believe what Marketing/Promotion dudes and material say
P.S. I told my friend that I wanted my PRS duplicated because it has such a unique and rich sound that really communicates what the PRS was really about in the late 80s. He told me that he can ask Paul to PERSONALLY make an EXACT copy of it physically and aurally.
I am still debating with my friend because I don't believe that Paul can copy hiyaw and put hiyaw in a guitar purposely. My friend's argument is that no one else has the best chance to put hiyaw into a PRS other than Paul himself.
Post by: j.nikko3123 on February 28, 2016, 10:56:41 AM
Post by: firemodel55 on February 28, 2016, 01:52:44 PM
I know there's a lot of hunchos on the "Hiyaw" topic and I had the time to back read on this thread, the only question I want to ask is, is "Hiyaw" measurable?
According to Paul in his video, its called a cochlea.
Post by: j.nikko3123 on February 28, 2016, 03:22:53 PM
Post by: j.nikko3123 on February 28, 2016, 04:13:00 PM
Post by: firemodel55 on February 28, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
to balance up on the universality of tone over the validity someone's individual perception, there might exist a frequential unity of different factors from wood to strings that can be summed up as the holy grail of tone but what hinders us from experiencing such perfection is the differentiation of our anatomical make-up.
I am ever an optimist, if my dog and Arie's dog can react to it, so can humans. But then again, some dogs don't. So if I were Manny PaQ-U, I would say mas masahol pa sa animal ang mga hindi makarinig ng Hiyaw. LOL
Post by: tongski_02 on February 28, 2016, 06:45:17 PM
on guitars:
on pedals:
hanapin ko about amp comparison
Post by: firemodel55 on February 28, 2016, 08:04:13 PM
tone comes from each individuals fingers. gear does not matter.
on guitars:
on pedals:
hanapin ko about amp comparison
Really? Bakit ka pa namimili ng gitara kung lahat sa fingers lang? Therefore, benta mo na ang JS guitar mo. Di ba?
Post by: Skybox on February 28, 2016, 08:51:06 PM
I am ever an optimist, if my dog and Arie's dog can react to it, so can humans. But then again, some dogs don't. So if I were Manny PaQ-U, I would say mas masahol pa sa animal ang mga hindi makarinig ng Hiyaw. LOL
Careful buddy.. Nike might drop your endorsement deal. Lol!
EDIT:
Thanks bro! I love my new sig! Haha!
Post by: j.nikko3123 on February 28, 2016, 09:12:34 PM
I am ever an optimist, if my dog and Arie's dog can react to it, so can humans. But then again, some dogs don't. So if I were Manny PaQ-U, I would say mas masahol pa sa animal ang mga hindi makarinig ng Hiyaw. LOL
Haha well that's one way to put it up.
Post by: tongski_02 on February 28, 2016, 10:24:43 PM
Really? Bakit ka pa namimili ng gitara kung lahat sa fingers lang? Therefore, benta mo na ang JS guitar mo. Di ba?
pinapakita sa video na to sir kayang tapatan ng assembled strat ang js. at ang pedals oare pareho lng ng tunog sa kamay ng isang player.
at tong assembled strat na to eh kaya ding maki pagsabayan sa mga custom shop fenders
Post by: plugzzzz on February 29, 2016, 12:00:26 AM
Post by: firemodel55 on February 29, 2016, 08:10:08 AM
Careful buddy.. Nike might drop your endorsement deal. Lol!
EDIT:
Thanks bro! I love my new sig! Haha!
+1
Post by: firemodel55 on February 29, 2016, 08:11:34 AM
pinapakita sa video na to sir kayang tapatan ng assembled strat ang js. at ang pedals oare pareho lng ng tunog sa kamay ng isang player.
at tong assembled strat na to eh kaya ding maki pagsabayan sa mga custom shop fenders
Got your point. So, which one is the 'best' sounding for you?
Post by: randymarsh on February 29, 2016, 08:11:45 AM
Wanna bet? I currently have a 1991 PRS Custom 24 that beats the crap out of 99% of ALL PRS. Took me thirty years to find it.
Not sure how you have arrived at this number. Sabihin na natin na for the last 18 years nakakapagproduce ang PRS ng 700 guitars per month (as per wikipedia) by now meron ng 150000 guitars ang na-iproduce ang shop nila (excluding pre 1998) To arrive at 99% at least 140K PRS guitars ang natest mo na or at least 10000 guitars (1%) kung statistical sampling ang gagawin. Pwede paki explain pano ka nakakasiguro na claim mo na 99%? :D
Post by: firemodel55 on February 29, 2016, 08:13:23 AM
Haha well that's one way to put it up.
Somehow, I was expecting the Animal Rights Activists to say that Animals are on the same level as the LGBT community. Heh heh.
Post by: firemodel55 on February 29, 2016, 08:18:03 AM
Not sure how you have arrived at this number. Sabihin na natin na for the last 18 years nakakapagproduce ang PRS ng 700 guitars per month (as per wikipedia) by now meron ng 150000 guitars ang na-iproduce ang shop nila (excluding pre 1998) To arrive at 99% at least 140K PRS guitars ang natest mo na or at least 10000 guitars (1%) kung statistical sampling ang gagawin. Pwede paki explain pano ka nakakasiguro na claim mo na 99%? :DRandom Sampling... For every incremental 100 PRS I try, only one passes the criteria of Hiyaw.
Post by: Skybox on February 29, 2016, 08:34:23 AM
Random Sampling... For every incremental 100 PRS I try, only one passes the criteria of Hiyaw.
After decades of tone chasing, which guitar would you say is the best ever that you have played/owned that's simply a cut above the rest?
Post by: tongski_02 on February 29, 2016, 08:47:18 AM
Got your point. So, which one is the 'best' sounding for you?
both sounds good. because they just sound the same. even your yaron LP or B3 might sound just the same in hands of the guitar player in the video i posted
Post by: Skybox on February 29, 2016, 09:29:04 AM
+1
Glad you got the sarcasm btw hehe.
Post by: chernandez1 on February 29, 2016, 10:09:25 AM
tone comes from each individuals fingers. gear does not matter.
on guitars:
on pedals:
hanapin ko about amp comparison
Parang ang hirap naman ijudge nung ginawa sa video about sa guitar comparison. Ang bigat sa effects e. Chockful of gain tapos may wah pa. Sana meron yung clean lang.
idk about hiyaw, pero coming from cheap gears, nung nagtry ako ng gibson stuff, there's something sweet about it.
Post by: titser_marco on February 29, 2016, 10:35:51 AM
tone comes from each individuals fingers. gear does not matter. -
on guitars:
on pedals:
hanapin ko about amp comparison
Post by: kawal on February 29, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
After decades of tone chasing, which guitar would you say is the best ever that you have played/owned that's simply a cut above the rest?of all the years that i've observed alex in this forums, it is still inconclusive of what he's really chasing at. one day it will be a suhr that would beat 10,000 US teles. then tomorrow, it's a hand-picked custom shop tele that's the best in the philippines. then another day it's a gil yaron that would make greeny's '59 burst a potato. then right now it's a PRS that beats 99% of all PRSs. so to answer your question: after decades of tone chasing, i think he's still chasing. i hope he's not just running around circles though.
Post by: siore on February 29, 2016, 12:10:46 PM
Post by: Skybox on February 29, 2016, 01:12:36 PM
What I'd really like to see is a guy actually auditioning a representative sample of PRS's just to find the one that has "Hiyaw" and would beat 99% of all PRS ever built. Wouldn't that count for some sort of a world record? :D
Post by: firemodel55 on March 01, 2016, 07:57:36 AM
After decades of tone chasing, which guitar would you say is the best ever that you have played/owned that's simply a cut above the rest?
Wala in terms of consistency. Even the real bursts had bad sounding ones. At least the 3 that I tried.
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying walang magical burst but rather each guitar has to be assessed on its on merit. Parang tao rin, hindi mo pwede sabihin na lahat ng pinoy ay maganda at guapo -- though compared to the Japanese and Singaporeans -- mas maraming guapo at maganda sa bansa natin.
Post by: firemodel55 on March 01, 2016, 08:00:37 AM
of all the years that i've observed alex in this forums, it is still inconclusive of what he's really chasing at. one day it will be a suhr that would beat 10,000 US teles. then tomorrow, it's a hand-picked custom shop tele that's the best in the philippines. then another day it's a gil yaron that would make greeny's '59 burst a potato. then right now it's a PRS that beats 99% of all PRSs. so to answer your question: after decades of tone chasing, i think he's still chasing. i hope he's not just running around circles though.
I think the major difference in my chasing is that it ain't chasing but rather hoarding. ALL of the guitars I mentioned are still with me because they ALL have hiyaw. And I keep them as proof that hiyaw is UNIVERSAL across different makes of guitars.
Post by: firemodel55 on March 01, 2016, 08:01:45 AM
Why can't we just watch someone chase tone and tire out? Let them insult modest gear and players, but hey at least we get to see them running around in circles. I think this is the approach where both sides are happy.
I don't run around in circles and the people who do know me think I am VERY consistent in selecting guitars at least in terms of hiyaw.
Post by: siore on March 01, 2016, 08:18:56 AM
I don't run around in circles and the people who do know me think I am VERY consistent in selecting guitars at least in terms of hiyaw.
Not referring to you or anyone in particular. Apologies if it seemed that way. You know your stuff pretty well.
As for some who's ventured into other hobbies, I'm saying guitar gear may take second place at some point in their lives. Thus it pays to have gear you're happy with (such as yourself), or just enjoy watching or reading about gear reviews from others who seem to be enjoying the tonequest. Take no offence either way and grow a thick skin.
Post by: Sugar Ray Vaughan on March 05, 2016, 09:00:42 AM
I know there's a lot of hunchos on the "Hiyaw" topic and I had the time to back read on this thread, the only question I want to ask is, is "Hiyaw" measurable?
Post by: gandydancer123 on March 05, 2016, 10:31:50 AM
Ayun oh!
Post by: Skybox on March 05, 2016, 11:19:25 AM
Is this the Baker through the Diezel? This video just confirmed na masahol pa ako sa hayop :-D
These are more enjoyable to watch:
Post by: j.nikko3123 on March 05, 2016, 11:59:26 AM
Post by: LaXter on March 05, 2016, 12:58:59 PM
Is this the Baker through the Diezel? This video just confirmed na masahol pa ako sa hayop :-D
I really don't know if its the Hiyaw or simpleng placebo effect lang na narirnig ko through the vid pero nabasa ko din kasi dito sa thread na hiyaw can't be recorded or at least kung meron mang macapture, d na sya maririnig, pero I'd say theres something about the sound. Pero regardless if this guitar vodoo is real not, I'd really like to have the chance to try out his guitars :-D
Post by: firemodel55 on March 05, 2016, 04:37:44 PM
I really don't know if its the Hiyaw or simpleng placebo effect lang na narirnig ko through the vid pero nabasa ko din kasi dito sa thread na hiyaw can't be recorded or at least kung meron mang macapture, d na sya maririnig, pero I'd say theres something about the sound. Pero regardless if this guitar vodoo is real not, I'd really like to have the chance to try out his guitars :-D
The guy who recorded it used a cellphone. If I remember right, I might have used the clean channel of an amp. The Diezel was not used.
Post by: randymarsh on March 23, 2016, 05:41:23 AM
From last night, not my video (nasa front row ako enjoying the concert, cant take out my phone kasi bawal). Eto na ba yung HIYAW?
Post by: toybitz on March 23, 2016, 08:43:18 AM