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Author Topic: Xenyx Phantom Power?  (Read 9699 times)

Offline mjay

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Xenyx Phantom Power?
« on: October 28, 2010, 04:29:58 PM »
I am planning to buy a Xenyx X1204USB from USA because its cheaper there than here which is 60% more expensive. My question is does the Phantom Power goes through XLR connectors and 1/4" TS/TRS connectors? Because I am planning to have a basic home recording without any studio and will be using atleast 1-2 condenser microphones (with XLR Male to XLR Female Cables) and Dynamic microphones for other uses like guitars, beat box, etc. (with Unbalanced TS Cable, the regular mic cables used on videoke machines). Will the use of an Unbalanced TS Cable may affect the Phantom Power which powers the Condenser Microphones on XLR cables?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 04:33:07 PM by mjay »

Offline KitC

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 05:43:05 PM »
Phantom power only goes through the XLR.
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Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 05:46:49 PM »
Phantom power only goes through the XLR.
Thanks for that. I thought it will cause problems on the TS plugs on the mixer, good to know that Phantom Power is only available on XLR. Can I use the regular microphones used on videoke machines? Because my first priority is the mixer and the mics goes last if I have enough budget sometime in the future...

Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 10:04:53 AM »
I hope someone could answer my follow-up question about using regular mics used on videoke machines while using condenser mics with Phantom Power turned-on?

Offline BALDO

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 11:53:38 AM »
yes you can..mics used on videoke machines have a 1/4 inch plug unless you use an XLR cable with it..newer dynamic mic designs can be plugged on phantom power but i wont take chances especially if the mic preamp is expensive..
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Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
I asked this because most sound system I see in the malls like StagePro or Walter (sound and stage lighting), they used condenser for drums, dynamic and wireless mics on XLR plugs... Thats why I am asking is if its safe to use regular mics on XLR or use it only on 1/4" TS plug while Phantom Power is turned-on. Because I will be using 1-2 condenser mics on XLR and regular mics (found mostly on videoke machines) on TS plug at the same time...

Offline pedge22

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 08:51:30 PM »
Sir Mjay if you will use original Shure, Sennheiser and other branded mics, these are compatible and safe even the phantom power is on. Pero yung mga mumurahin and commonly used in videoke bars na mics, those are not safe in phantom power dahil yung number 1 and 3 pin sa terminal mismo ng mic ay shorted. Check it first, buksan mo yung mic then compare the connection to original shure mic (yung hindi condenser ha). Mapapansin mo rin naman kung di sya compatible, maingay sya pag isinaksak. Hope this help.. based on my experience.  :-)

Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 09:04:57 PM »
So, the only thing I can do for now is use the 1/4" TS connector of the regular dynamic mics? My preferred dynamic mic which is branded will be Shure SM58 (mostly the preferred one, but slightly expensive and will get one in the near future if budget is possible)...

Offline KitC

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 10:48:14 PM »
So, the only thing I can do for now is use the 1/4" TS connector of the regular dynamic mics?

No. The karaoke mics have high impedance which will not sound right when used with XLR connections and their associated mic preamps. You will need a matching transformer to connect the unbalanced karaoke mic output to an XLR input. You cannot connect an unbalanced 1/4" mic cable to a mixer's 1/4" line inputs... the signal will be too low and ramping up the trim or gain knob will usually lead to feedback.

Regular dynamics like the SM58 use balanced XLR connections and you should not use an XLR-to-1/4" cable adapter.

This should help:

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/224
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 10:49:45 PM by KitC »
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Offline pedge22

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 11:49:38 PM »
Tama si Sir Kit. Walang problema kung SM58 ang gagamitin mo.  :-)

Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2010, 10:21:06 AM »
Well, if that so I can only use regular mics when Phantom Power is turned-off for the mean time? I don't have yet any budget for Shure mics. Just found a promo of a condenser worth $39.99 (Buy 1, Take 1 Free), so if I use condenser with Phantom Power turned-on I need atleast a SM58 so that I can use Phantom Power without any problems where both condenser and SM58 are XLR cables.

Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2010, 04:39:06 PM »
Hope someone could enlighten and answer my question just above ^^

Or should I only use 1/4" TS Plugs for regular mics...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 04:45:22 PM by mjay »

Offline constantpressure

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 07:03:19 PM »
Masisira ba ng Phantom Power ang aking MICROPHONES?

Phantom power or +48V DC seems like a high enough voltage to do some serious damage to microphones that don’t need it (like ribbons and dynamics). Some people shut phantom power off when plugging and unplugging condenser microphones as well. The truth of the matter is that in practice the chances of damaging a condenser microphone because it was unplugged or plugged while phantom power was on, is absolutely none. Of course if you are used to shutting it off, every time you plug a mic in, there’s nothing bad about it. For the 1 in 10 millions or so chance of it actually damaging a condenser mic keep following your routine.

When it comes to dynamic mics. I’ve yet to see one that actually requires phantom power, so if you have the choice to send phantom power to a dynamic mic, don’t do it. Again the chances of damaging a dynamic mic with phantom power are very slim or rather none unless we have wiring problems.

You don’t really need to know electronics to understand the following diagram:


Phantom power is usually 48V DC at very low current  (usually micro amps up to a few mili amps), which is sent to pins 2 and 3 of the XLR plug through the resistors R1 and R2. Which means that there’s 48 volts between ground (pin1) and pin2 and also between ground (pin1) and pin3. Which automatically means there would be exactly 0 volts between pins 2 and 3. In fact the resistors R1 and R2 are always exact 1% tolerance resistors so that the difference between the potential of pins 2 and 3 is exactly 0 volts. As you would notice on the microphone side the dynamic coil or in the case of a ribbon they would be connected between pins 2 and 3. Since the voltage between pins 2 and 3 is zero the coil or the ribbon would not even “know” there’s phantom power applied to it. Since the ground in any dynamic or ribbon mic is simply connected to the body of the mic and has nothing to do with the coil or the ribbon inside of it, the coil is not affected by the 48 Volts between ground and pin 2 nor the 48 volts between the ground and pin 3.

The real danger is if you have a ribbon mic without a built in isolating transformer (most modern ribbon mics have their ribbons isolated either electrically or with a transformer) connected with a bad cable which happens to have pin 1 shorted to either pin 2 or pin 3, which brings the potential of one of those pins to 0 and in comparison to the other not shorted pin we end up with 48V between pins 2 and 3. Practically that would be the only condition where Phantom power could damage the ribbon. Theoretically, this scenario would damage a dynamic mic too, but in practice the current of the phantom power is low enough so that even if it flows through the coil it wouldn’t inflict any permanent damage to it, but either way don’t try it at home, or the studio.

enjoy!
jojo
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 07:04:51 PM by constantpressure »
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Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 10:04:21 PM »
The thing I asked is,
OPTION 1: better to use 1/4" TS unbalance dynamic microphones (regular mics) for the meantime while condenser on XLR
OPTION 2: use 1/4" TS unbalance mics (SM58) while condenser on XLR
OPTION 3: use dynamic mics (regular mics) and condenser on XLR (both on XLR)
OPTION 4: use 1/4" TS unbalance dynamic microphones (regular mics) only for the meantime while I don't have any use on condenser and no budget to buy for a SM58 mics

Offline constantpressure

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2010, 07:05:08 AM »
Hello Mjay,

Pro mixing board Microphone inputs are balance input (XLR High level) the same goes to its 1/4" jack its a TRS (not TS) its a balance low level.

There are mixing console that have all time active channel input, meaning that you can use both XLR and TRS.

Some are not...there is a Pad switch that change input level from High to Low level input.


Many unbalanced ¼" output panel jacks are straight Tip/Sleeve jacks which do not provide a ring connection for the (-) leg of a balanced line as is required for use with balanced ¼" Tip Ring Sleeve plugs. A balanced input using a TRS plug to access a TS jack output would totally defeat the differential input it may be feeding because there it has no contact for the "ring" on any TRS plug inserted into the jack - floating the (-) line. The balanced input circuit receiving the signal from this connection will be missing the (-) or one leg of the balanced line at its inputs - causing a 6 dB gain loss, frequency aberrations, or buzz or all three. This was pointed-out by Kitc.

TS to XLR...
This can either be done as shown in the diagram, with a tip-sleeve line jack socket going via a short section of unbalanced audio single-core coaxial cable to a 3-pin XLR plug to go into the mixer.

Alternatively the consumer mic jack plug can be cut off. If the microphone cable has a single center core and shield then it can be wired as follows:

    * XLR pin 1 and XLR pin 3 to microphone shield
    * XLR pin 2 to microphone center



OPTION 3...provided that the consumer microphone can be modified or wired as shown below.



have a nice day,
jojo




« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 07:14:47 AM by constantpressure »
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Offline hayewire

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2010, 07:21:22 AM »
sir MJ diba 110 volts sa US may auto volts feature ba ang xenyx para pwede sya sa 220 volts? tnx

Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2010, 10:10:42 AM »
@constantpressure
That does not answer my questions, I know the basics of electronics the thing is I do not have any budget for Shure mics because as of now I only have regular mics and also I know that the condenser mics needs the Phantom Power in order for it to work. The condenser mic I will be getting is a Buy 1 Take 1 Free. Could you give any suggestions or recommendations from the Options I have recently posted.

@hayewire
All of Xenyx mixers being produced as of today are Auto-Volt so it can be used anywhere around the globe. Except for the small mixers like 802, I am not sure about this.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 10:13:22 AM by mjay »

Offline constantpressure

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2010, 03:38:10 PM »
@constantpressure
That does not answer my questions, I know the basics of electronics the thing is I do not have any budget for Shure mics because as of now I only have regular mics and also I know that the condenser mics needs the Phantom Power in order for it to work. The condenser mic I will be getting is a Buy 1 Take 1 Free. Could you give any suggestions or recommendations from the Options I have recently posted.

@hayewire
All of Xenyx mixers being produced as of today are Auto-Volt so it can be used anywhere around the globe. Except for the small mixers like 802, I am not sure about this.

Mjay,

Ok Option1 is very risky, but I'm gonna do a workbench...i will crack open one consumer mic and wire it across XLR pin 2 at 3 and that is the +(non-inverting input) -(inverting input) of the operational amplifier (OPamp). We will see what happen i will measure the potentials across pin2/3 of the XLR...then we will use TS plug, since it does not have a ring it will short pin 3 to pin1 (shield/ground/return). Pin 3 -(inverting input) is the negative feeback of the opamp circuit shorting this to the ground we will lose some AC gain.

I will post what ever findings i get...let us see what basic Electronics i have...hehehe

have a nice day,
jojo
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 05:44:59 PM by constantpressure »
Never look down on anybody, unless you're helping them
Those who have much are often greedy, those who have little always share...Oscar Wilde

Offline constantpressure

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2010, 05:38:49 PM »
Materials to be tested:



Test1...

Mic on XLR pin2 and pin3.
Measured voltage across pin2 and pin1...approx. 48vdc


Measured voltage across pin3 and pin1...approx. 48vdc


Measured across pin2 and pin3...approx. zero vdc


Test2...

Mic on TS plug.

Measuring voltage across Tip and Shield...ZERO Vdc


Result:

1. Consumer Mic on XLR is ok as long pin2 and pin3 floats from the ground...if ever they touch the shield/ground...Poof! Adios Marikita Linda...Bye bye na sa Mic mo.
2. Consumer Mic on TS is OK din...walang kakaba-kaba kahit ma-short...yun nga lang medyo mahina kailangan dagdag ng gain before feedback.

Conclusion: I will go for result no.1 much better performance during my vocal test.

Please be notified this is just for the discussion of IF Consumer Mic to be use for pang-samantagal lang...this cannot substitute the performance proven by the Pro standard gears.

have a nice day,
jojo
Never look down on anybody, unless you're helping them
Those who have much are often greedy, those who have little always share...Oscar Wilde

Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2010, 08:08:12 PM »
Thanks for that, I am very enlightened with your last answer. Because I do not have enough budget as of the moment, I will use consumer mics on 1/4" TS plugs and not on XLR just for now. Will earn savings for the SM58 mics in the future.

Offline KitC

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2010, 11:22:38 PM »
http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/microphones/impedance.html

Quote: "High impedance microphones are usually quite cheap. Their main disadvantage is that they do not perform well over long distance cables - after about 5 or 10 metres they begin producing poor quality audio (in particular a loss of high frequencies). In any case these mics are not a good choice for serious work. In fact, although not completely reliable, one of the clues to a microphone's overall quality is the impedance rating."

While you can use line in for karaoke mics, the gain may not be enough. My experience with karaoke mics on line inputs is that the levels are too low forcing you to apply a lot of gain to compensate. The low quality of the capsule cause them to feedback a lot more than usual. It's your choice if you want to go that route.
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Offline alvincflorentino

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2010, 08:49:15 PM »
AFAIK, the reason they called it "phantom" power was because it was basically invisible to all other mics (except ribbons?) which don't require it. Meaning, you can use your regular dynamic in the XLR with the phantom power button "on" and nothing bad will happen since your dynamics don't draw that power for its use. (I've tried it on an SM58). But do make sure the wirings of your cheap dynamic are as stated above in previous posts. That's just me...
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Offline mjay

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 10:03:31 PM »
@KitC
I understand those circumstances and risks if I try to plug the videoke mics on XLR. The reason to use regular mics is I do not have a huge budget for such SM58 mics (its a really pain in the pocket). If you will donate one SM58 to me why not?  :-D I will be really delighted by that.

@alvincflorentino
They have already pointed on that in the recent posts above.

Offline KitC

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2010, 04:26:35 PM »
@KitC
I understand those circumstances and risks if I try to plug the videoke mics on XLR. The reason to use regular mics is I do not have a huge budget for such SM58 mics (its a really pain in the pocket).

Since a karaoke mic is unbalanced, the best option is to use pins 2 and 3 with an XLR connection. Note that since the ground and shield are not connected, you may experience higher noise levels.

If you will donate one SM58 to me why not?  :-D I will be really delighted by that.

I would, but I've grown fond of my SM58.
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Offline sikyo

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Re: Xenyx Phantom Power?
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2010, 04:45:32 PM »
@KitC
I understand those circumstances and risks if I try to plug the videoke mics on XLR. The reason to use regular mics is I do not have a huge budget for such SM58 mics (its a really pain in the pocket). If you will donate one SM58 to me why not?  :-D I will be really delighted by that.

@alvincflorentino
They have already pointed on that in the recent posts above.



sir mjay,

you may also want to consider cheaper XLR mics from either Samson or Behringer, a lot of forumites here have sworn by them and they cost a lot less than a Shure SM58. the discrepancy in quality does not reflect that of the price, though :-D




making sound matter  :-)
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