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Author Topic: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys  (Read 57279 times)

Offline free2rock

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #175 on: February 16, 2011, 09:47:19 AM »
Musicality and technique are part and parcel of music.  So, as I said, song is king but equipment like any job or endeavor plays a huge role that people tend to diminish because they cannot afford it.  Unfortunately, higher standards require higher costs and some people would want it otherwise because of their bruised ego.

Definitely true. We should not diminish the fact that quality equipment can help contribute to better performance and tone--as long as proper consideration for selecting better equipment is made.

Just to make sure I understand correctly, you're argument is--assuming all other factors (i.e., technique, musicality, phrasing, etc.) are isolated--then gear of higher quality (and most of the time, cost) would produce better tone. Valid point indeed.
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #176 on: February 16, 2011, 10:12:13 AM »
hmn8 said:
"What you look for in gear is character and how it translate to your music, how it sits in a track. Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating."




"Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating."





"It all depends..."



Ika nga ni blue_buddha, kanya kanya lang yan.  Now if we can't get along, or even agree to disagree, let's just leave each other alone. :-)

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #177 on: February 16, 2011, 10:12:31 AM »
  I will respectfully disagree with this. Somebody who says otherwise is not a hypocrite but an inexperienced musician. Yes, some will jump at the opportunity but those who don't are not hypocrite, they just know what they need to get the job done. What you look for in gear is character and how it translate to your music, how it sits in a track. Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating. Would RATM's debut album be more influential if Tom used an orig 59 LP and a Dumble amp? Would Eric Johnson be able to create Ah Via Musicom w/ a first act guitar and a pignose amp? Would Marley's Redemption Song be more beautiful if he used a 20k acoustic? There is no measuring stick in art.

of course it goes without saying that when you upgrade, you will get the ones that are better suited to your taste.  it's simple common sense.  getting better gear doesn't simply mean getting the more expensive stuff out there.  you still have to be in-line with your music.  if you are a hardcore strat guy and you currently have a cheapo strat, your goal may be getting a better Japanese or American strat.  why would you "upgrade" to an LP unless you want a different flavor?  when a sniper upgrades, he upgrades with a better sniper rifle with more advanced scope or whatever.  he won't "upgrade" to a bigger machine gun or something.

the scenarios you cited are all what-if's.  no way to prove or disprove.  some would argue that RATM will still sound the same in a Dumble and Eric Johnson can still kill a song with a small amp.  point is, you wouldn't know what will happen if those scenarios actually happened.  

  Imagine if all forum members here own boutique equipment. High end guitars, amps, efx, the works. Do you think we would all get along by then? No! Because it is human nature to look for the greener pasture, to look for something better than the next guy. I'm sure there will be somebody who will buy the more expensive gear, brag about it and say "look, my stuff is better than yours" but there will also be some people that will say "what I have right now is enough for what I want to accomplish, now excuse me while I make some music".

of course we still won't get along - that's where the subjectivity comes in!  only the inexperienced will buy more expensive gear to brag.  those people are laughable.

those that stick with their gear and don't upgrade may say that they are contented.  but how many are REALLY contented?  i daresay that majority have other priorities in life which demand a bigger chunk of their budget than making music.  it can be another hobby, family matters, what have you.  that is respectable because they know their priorities.  but only a small percentage of those people can actually claim that they are contented in the true sense of the word.

i still maintain the position that a truly experienced musician - when given the opportunity - will upgrade his gear to better and more expensive ones that he thinks will improve his music-making prowess.  
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Offline boybangs

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #178 on: February 16, 2011, 10:30:39 AM »
Here is my side of the equation.  I was using Jon Elegee's amp and he was using a cellphone to record the sound.  So, if you think that its horrible tone then as a moron you should accept that it is because of Jon's lousy amp and lousy cellphone.  Period.  I have always said that people who think they should judge tone using cellphones are stupid and deaf -- that includes you samuel.:) Sorry guys.

With all due respect sir firemodel55, could you please post a better recorded demo of your Baker using your boutique amps and gears so as to erased the imprinted image of that infamous video in most of us forumers.
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Offline Al_Librero

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #179 on: February 16, 2011, 10:34:35 AM »
i still maintain the position that a truly experienced musician - when given the opportunity - will upgrade his gear to better and more expensive ones that he thinks will improve his music-making prowess.  
i don't think experience is a prerequisite for this, though. inexperience is just as big a factor when someone believes better gear can lead to better musicianship.
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Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2011, 11:17:48 AM »
i don't think experience is a prerequisite for this, though. inexperience is just as big a factor when someone believes better gear can lead to better musicianship.

true also.  there will always be people who will be blinded by the price tag of a guitar, thinking that it would compensate for lack of skill.  :lol:
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Offline tapslore

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2011, 11:31:15 AM »
i don't think experience is a prerequisite for this, though. inexperience is just as big a factor when someone believes better gear can lead to better musicianship.

+1 i've spent a lot of money upgrading my gear, and I'm not a much better musician than when i started :-D. If only talent can be upgraded!
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Offline geloboy25

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2011, 12:09:33 PM »
ngayon ko lang napanood to..

ang kulit nung body ng guitar nya :-D

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2011, 12:36:33 PM »
With all due respect sir firemodel55, could you please post a better recorded demo of your Baker using your boutique amps and gears so as to erased the imprinted image of that infamous video in most of us forumers.

Would you buy a guitar based on a recording or demo?  It has to be felt and heard in person. 

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2011, 12:39:00 PM »
Definitely true. We should not diminish the fact that quality equipment can help contribute to better performance and tone--as long as proper consideration for selecting better equipment is made.

Just to make sure I understand correctly, you're argument is--assuming all other factors (i.e., technique, musicality, phrasing, etc.) are isolated--then gear of higher quality (and most of the time, cost) would produce better tone. Valid point indeed.

Yup.. You understand correctly.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2011, 12:48:55 PM »
hi sir would you think every musician would say the same regarding your suhr strat and your tokai strat in, for example, a blind test? even if they are subjected to cheap amps to the boutique ones?

just asking.. because i really do like blind tests because somewhat, if the brain knows something is much more expensive, it may tell the ears that its sounds better too..

just asking.. just my opinion..

I don't do blind tests because I test with the heart.  The problem with 'EVERY' musician is a lot of them cannot hear or don't have it to determine which is a magical guitar.  Don't need blind tests, I can easily tell you if your electrical is NOT magical and prove to you vis-a-vis the magical guitars in person.  That's why I never care about recordings and youtube stuff.  For example, in this video, hindi na-test ni Mr. plywood ang guitar sa clean.  Moreover, gumamit pa siya ng Line 6 amp na alam natin na hindi transparent -- that is Line 6 makes all guitars sound like Line 6.  Bakit ko masasabi iyan?  Eh... may Line 6 ako na ginagamit ko lang pang click track.  Walang sinabi ang Line 6 modeling sa tunay na tube amp na maganda.  Paano ko alam?  Kasi ang sinusubukan i-model ng Line 6 ay mayroon ako.

By the way, expensive for me is a real good sounding vintage 59.... would I buy it?  If it sounded good, yup.  I mean rather than buying a porsche or ferrari -- I'd rather have a good sounding and good looking real 59.  Knowing that if it was produced today that it would only sell for a Gibson list price of about US$3500, would I still buy the good sounding 59?  Yes, I would.  After all, the vintage 59s are still around while the Lehman Brothers are gone.  There are things more expensive in life and that includes going around trying to buy great sounding guitars at bargain or finding that golden Holy Grail Tokai or something.   
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 12:58:50 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline boybangs

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2011, 12:53:19 PM »
Would you buy a guitar based on a recording or demo?  It has to be felt and heard in person. 

Nope. Just to rule out the factors you've mentioned in your argument that the video was captured by a mobile phone camera and the Baker through Elegee's amp.
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Offline pitongjerome

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2011, 01:24:41 PM »

i still maintain the position that a truly experienced musician - when given the opportunity - will upgrade his gear to better and more expensive ones that he thinks will improve his music-making prowess.  

I agree with the better gear, and disagree to the more expensive ones.

it just so happen that better instruments are often more expensive because of some factors.

and an expensive guitar aint always good sounding..

I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline heyman

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2011, 01:29:49 PM »
come on guys wag kayo magtalo talo....for me, i can only afford kung anong laman lang ng wallet ko at kung anong "best" na pwede at kasya sa budget to satisfy myself. There's no competition here. if you hate his sound, show a little RESPECT na lang and keep it to yourself whatever yung sa panrinig mo ay ayaw mo. i need "better" gear na not so expensive than "best" gears na sobrang mahal. practicality anyway

sir firemodel mawalang galang lang po, ano bang meron sa tenga mo na magical na wala kami? magikin mo naman yung gitara ko hehe peace

kung mayaman lang ako bibili ako nang 2 gitarang pinapakita sa video then susunugin ko yung isa hahahaha
yada yada yada.....

Offline pitongjerome

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2011, 02:02:29 PM »
come on guys wag kayo magtalo talo....for me, i can only afford kung anong laman lang ng wallet ko at kung anong "best" na pwede at kasya sa budget to satisfy myself. There's no competition here. if you hate his sound, show a little RESPECT na lang and keep it to yourself whatever yung sa panrinig mo ay ayaw mo. i need "better" gear na not so expensive than "best" gears na sobrang mahal. practicality anyway

sir firemodel mawalang galang lang po, ano bang meron sa tenga mo na magical na wala kami? magikin mo naman yung gitara ko hehe peace

kung mayaman lang ako bibili ako nang 2 gitarang pinapakita sa video then susunugin ko yung isa hahahaha

sir pwede magtalo basta wag magaaway.. discussion forum ito..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline music_adik_to

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2011, 02:06:44 PM »
I agree with the better gear, and disagree to the more expensive ones.

it just so happen that better instruments are often more expensive because of some factors.

and an expensive guitar aint always good sounding..



+1

wala man akong expensive gears katulad ni sir firemodel55 at ng iba... im still happy and able naman to produce good tones and express my emotions and feelings sa mga mumurahin kong kagamitan...

once you reach naman siguro ang maturity ng tenga, hahanapin mo talaga yung tunog na iniisip at naiimagine mo... and mahahanap mo yung tunog na iyon, hindi lang sa mamahaling gear, pwede ding sa murang halaga...  :-)
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Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2011, 02:09:33 PM »
I agree with the better gear, and disagree to the more expensive ones.

it just so happen that better instruments are often more expensive because of some factors.

and an expensive guitar aint always good sounding..

agree with you too.  but all things being equal, a more expensive guitar is made up of more expensive and higher quality parts - hence the premium on the price - making it a better guitar than more cheap ones.  again, all things being equal.
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Offline mikki_blinkme

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2011, 02:11:20 PM »
agree agree!  :lol:

Offline music_adik_to

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2011, 02:13:18 PM »
agree with you too.  but all things being equal, a more expensive guitar is made up of more expensive and higher quality parts - hence the premium on the price - making it a better guitar than more cheap ones.  again, all things being equal.

case closed... haha
BOSS GT-10 - Sold to mentee
Traded CoolCat Transparent OD to - bembmd
EHX #1 Echo - Sold to non forumer @ classifieds CoolCat Chorus - Sold to mbsunga DOD EQ - Sold to faroutman Boss DS-1 (BritMod) - Sold to bawalangpork Line6 UX1 - Sold to lindtayl

Offline heyman

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2011, 02:21:21 PM »
+1

wala man akong expensive gears katulad ni sir firemodel55 at ng iba... im still happy and able naman to produce good tones and express my emotions and feelings sa mga mumurahin kong kagamitan...

once you reach naman siguro ang maturity ng tenga, hahanapin mo talaga yung tunog na iniisip at naiimagine mo... and mahahanap mo yung tunog na iyon, hindi lang sa mamahaling gear, pwede ding sa murang halaga...  :-)

it's a never ending search for great tones. even manufacturers keep on improving and upgrading. it's ok sometimes to buy expensive things that you really really want at paghihirapan but again it doesnt always have to be that expensive. you just have to be practical in some other ways di ba sir? all roads are not made to be straight, kung may makita kang mas mura at ok e di kumaliwa ka hehe
yada yada yada.....

Offline raybrig

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2011, 02:24:50 PM »
+1 i've spent a lot of money upgrading my gear, and I'm not a much better musician than when i started :-D. If only talent can be upgraded!

as long as you (we) are happy right?  :-)
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Offline music_adik_to

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #196 on: February 16, 2011, 02:40:30 PM »
it's a never ending search for great tones. even manufacturers keep on improving and upgrading. it's ok sometimes to buy expensive things that you really really want at paghihirapan but again it doesnt always have to be that expensive. you just have to be practical in some other ways di ba sir? all roads are not made to be straight, kung may makita kang mas mura at ok e di kumaliwa ka hehe

yes it is... never ending...

at agree ako dito:

hmn8 said:
"What you look for in gear is character and how it translate to your music, how it sits in a track. Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating."




"Sometimes that character comes from old, cheap gear and sometimes it comes from really expensive ones. It all depends on the type of music you're creating."





"It all depends..."




BOSS GT-10 - Sold to mentee
Traded CoolCat Transparent OD to - bembmd
EHX #1 Echo - Sold to non forumer @ classifieds CoolCat Chorus - Sold to mbsunga DOD EQ - Sold to faroutman Boss DS-1 (BritMod) - Sold to bawalangpork Line6 UX1 - Sold to lindtayl

Offline guitarwiz02

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #197 on: February 16, 2011, 02:55:49 PM »
So whats the point?  If you can cite one specific context wherein a known guitarist uses a pignose, I can provide the other perspective that there are more known guitarists to who the soldano SLO 100 than a pginose because it sounds better.  Unless you are telling me that Zappa is superior to everybody else, I am within my rights to cite a counter example.  THATS THE POINT.

What price level do you define as cheap?  What price level do you define as ultra expensive?  Ang pignose na sinsabi mo ay mas mahal pa ngayon kaysa ibang practice amp na gawang china na mabibili sa JB.  As I observe audiences, technic is just around 20% of the equation for them.  The 80% is sound timbre.  Why?  Because they are tired off guitarist wanking off and sounding bad.  Of course the song is more important than anything else.  Don't you notice that only guitarists clap at solos while most of the audience who are non-guitarists are happy that the solo is over?  Specially those with bad tone.  I can tell you that the audience hates the raspy distortion coming out of multi-effects and excessive crash cymbals.  Those are the two things that shut off people's ears.

Lets put it into context... how often did Zappa use his pignose in vis-a-vis his other expensive stuff? If you are saying that he used the Pignose because of its sound quality, so why does he also use the other high end stuff?

Your counter-example, if that's what you wanna call it, wasn't necessary. It ain't needed. The guy was just merely saying that Frank used a Pignose for recording his tracks but still managed to produce great tone out of it. We all know that there's more to that "counter-example" of yours than meets the eye.

Yes, sa ngayon, e talagang mas mahal na ang Pignose compared sa mga practice amps na gawang China na mabibili sa JB. Pero iba yung ngayon sa panahon ni Frank Zappa.

He used his other expensive stuff for variation. Just like any other professional musician would do. Steve Vai uses his Carvin Legacy and a Marshall live and in recording, y'know what I mean?
"Check out how Eddie Van Halen doesn’t pick his fast notes with all the same boring velocity. He makes most of his fast licks almost funky by picking some notes harder than others." - Jason Becker

Offline guitarwiz02

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #198 on: February 16, 2011, 03:08:48 PM »
di niya kelangan mag hinay hinay kasi may mga nagtatanggol naman sa mga posts niya e. hehehe. if he was capable more tact in these forums, we should've already seen it years ago.

on the other hand....
 
this was unnecessary.

i think you just became fair game kasi isiningit niyo tong vid na to sa usapan.

Ah yes..the minions! :evil:

I agree. The posting of the betcha can't play this video was uncalled for. Because of that video pati si Elegee nadamay na.hehe!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 03:10:28 PM by guitarwiz02 »
"Check out how Eddie Van Halen doesn’t pick his fast notes with all the same boring velocity. He makes most of his fast licks almost funky by picking some notes harder than others." - Jason Becker

Offline heyman

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Re: Great tone isnt always's expensive ( video title ) share ko lang guys
« Reply #199 on: February 16, 2011, 03:09:38 PM »
Your counter-example, if that's what you wanna call it, wasn't necessary. It ain't needed. The guy was just merely saying that Frank used a Pignose for recording his tracks but still managed to produce great tone out of it. We all know that there's more to that "counter-example" of yours than meets the eye.

Yes, sa ngayon, e talagang mas mahal na ang Pignose compared sa mga practice amps na gawang China na mabibili sa JB. Pero iba yung ngayon sa panahon ni Frank Zappa.

He used his other expensive stuff for variation. Just like any other professional musician would do. Steve Vai uses his Carvin Legacy and a Marshall live and in recording, y'know what I mean?

amp na china made? don't wanna try it hehehe wag naman bumaba sa meron tayo na maganda na.  :-D
yada yada yada.....