Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention

[firemodel55]

if we could just "try" the pickups first then hear if it sounds good or not on our guitar than buy it first then keep it or sell it..

I have reached the point that there are too many things to try out and not too mention that they have to be customized or built to order first before you get to it try out.  Nowadays I look at other things about the manufacturer of guitar gear.  For example, when I orded the Gil Yaron there was nothing to try out.  At the time, he produced only a few and they were not avaialable anywhere in Asia and only a limited number had reached U.S. shores.  It was Cliff Cultreri of Destroy All Guitars who gave his endorsement as the closest to a real burst of all Guitar Luthiers.  And look now, we have 4 Gil Yarons in the Philippines. 

[treblinkalovescene]

I'd like to say I've tried Asian pickups but I don't know any Asian brands who make replacements for Jazzmaster pickups (no, NOT P90s) and Wide Range Humbuckers. I'd trust in someone's ears, but there's a reason I'd want to buy a Curtis Novak. I want to pay for that experience and actual R&D with hundreds of vintage pickups.

[firemodel55]

That's good Alex! At least Chris acknowledges that winding before would differ from the windings today. That's why it's so hard to replicate a vintage sounding pickup with the current materials available on the market. Vintage pickups will always be the old pickups on a very old guitar.

On another note, to compare an Asian to Asian pickup. I tried the Max Rufo single coil on a clean sounding amp. It sounded better compared to the Artec vintage. pero that was just 5 minutes playing with the guitar. But the pickup voicing will always differ with the tone capacitors being used.  But as tried and tested, the oil capacitors really work well to deliver the ballsy single coil sound.

Actually, that goes to show us that despite one set of specifications, Chris Kinman knows that his pickups might sound different over time. 

Its funny but this year I was pleasantly surprised when Jim Rolph sent me a Cornell Dublier NOS oil cap.  Grabe bago pa at nasa plastic bag na maliit.  I and Arie were shocked with its performance on single coils.  Walang sinabi ang scalarizer.  Heh heh.  Unfortunately, he did not have any more of it.  For me, its the best oil capacitor for guitar.  And this is my point, I never heard of any local winders recommend me a Cornell Dublier .... In fact, I bet they don't even know about it.  Its pretty clear to me that our knowledge about guitar gear in this country of ours is limited -- way much much better than 20 years ago but I believe still 60 years behind the U.S.

[firemodel55]

I'd like to say I've tried Asian pickups but I don't know any Asian brands who make replacements for Jazzmaster pickups (no, NOT P90s) and Wide Range Humbuckers. I'd trust in someone's ears, but there's a reason I'd want to buy a Curtis Novak. I want to pay for that experience and actual R&D with hundreds of vintage pickups.

Take the plunge...  But some caution is in order,  you may have to try several of his winds or even try others.  For example, I feel that for my guitars -- Jim Rolph does better work on humbuckers but Ron Ellis is better for Telecaster pickups.  It could be reverse for another person.  But sometimes, I use benchmarks to determine if I am still on the correct roadmap.  For example, did you notice that everyone talks about Robben Ford's tone in terms of amps and guitar but nobody talks about his pickups?  His pickups are made by Jim Rolph.  According to Jim, the nice thing about Robben and his tech is that they endorse him right after his clinics.  So logically, Jim Rolphs will match my Baker.  But the irony is that I learned about this only after putting Jim's pickups on my Baker and I loved its sound.  It was only brought up in a discussion over the phone with Jim about how the PAFs sounded great in my Baker that he mentioned Robben. 

[Filippo]

Unfortunately, there are quite a number who cannot hear... LOL.  I would rather that they get their brain short circuited and prescribed gear in the hopes that their ears get trained to what sounds good.  For example, the Parokya ni Edgar sound --- sounds better than before but still bad sounding overall.  Not to knock them because they have probably improved but at this stage I expect more from them in terms of guitar tone.  Look at Ely Buendia's tone from Eraserhead days.  It has improved way much more today.

I agree with you on this. I never liked the Parokya sound. It always sounded (for the lack of a better word) cheap. But somehow, I think the kind of tone and playing fits the type of music perfectly and is perhaps the reason why it appeals so much to the general masses.

[treblinkalovescene]

Take the plunge...  But some caution is in order,  you may have to try several of his winds or even try others.  For example, I feel that for my guitars -- Jim Rolph does better work on humbuckers but Ron Ellis is better for Telecaster pickups.  It could be reverse for another person.  But sometimes, I use benchmarks to determine if I am still on the correct roadmap.  For example, did you notice that everyone talks about Robben Ford's tone in terms of amps and guitar but nobody talks about his pickups?  His pickups are made by Jim Rolph.  According to Jim, the nice thing about Robben and his tech is that they endorse him right after his clinics.  So logically, Jim Rolphs will match my Baker.  But the irony is that I learned about this only after putting Jim's pickups on my Baker and I loved its sound.  It was only brought up in a discussion over the phone with Jim about how the PAFs sounded great in my Baker that he mentioned Robben.

I don't own any guitars with regular humbuckers, Strat singles, or Tele bridges so naturally my choices would gravitate towards people who specialize in what I do have. Right now, that would be Curtis Novak and Jason Lollar. I've only heard good things about Lollar with JM/Jaguar pickups. Lindy Fralin is an option as well, but Novak's no-mod solutions for the Jazzmaster are a lot more interesting.

Does anyone know of any good replacements for Jazzmasters or Jaguars?

[firemodel55]

I agree with you on this. I never liked the Parokya sound. It always sounded (for the lack of a better word) cheap. But somehow, I think the kind of tone and playing fits the type of music perfectly and is perhaps the reason why it appeals so much to the general masses.

I think the general masses don't know good music today.  How many of the general masses of today listen to vinyl?  or even bought a 'legal' CD?  Their music, I consider cheap.  For some reason, I can never hum a Parokya song because they sound so crass or vulgar but also the melody just does not grab you like a good Guns N Roses song which just gets you too sing.  Mababaw talaga ang Parokya.  I would even consider their System of a Down cover as plagarism.  They never acknowledged System of a Down or paid royalties, I think.  Eh... binaboy pa nila ang kanta.  Yet ang Pinoy gagawan pa ng full production MTV with budget ang mababaw na kanta?  If we allow this to continue, nobody will pay for good music anymore at mawawalan ng trabaho ang mga musikero. 

[firemodel55]

I think the more important take out that I want to say is that there is more to pickup manufacture and design and NOT ANYBODY can just wind good sounding pickups.  It takes YEARS and YEARS of exposure and experience to know what sounds good and what a good pickup contributes to the overall sound.  Again, I don't mean to insult Mang Max, but all he has to do is wind something dead on to a Gibson 57 Classic to prove his spurs.  Anybody can wind one or two or a dozen pickups and claim musicality for people who may or may NOT hear but its difficult to be winding pickups for twenty or more years with known guitarists as your customers a.k.a. Jim Rolph, etc...

[Filippo]

I think one's ability to say something sound's good is subjective and is a personal experience but I think that is largely driven as well by what you've already heard. It's like saying, you don't know what sounds like the best until you've heard the best ... til then, you are limited to what your current experiences have given you.

My point being, a guy who lives in a deserted island and who's played through a his same axe and same amp for the past 50 years of his life won't know if something sounds even remotely better until he actually hears and plays someone else's gear

In which case, ignorance may be a blessing LOL

[arkeetar]

I think one's ability to say something sound's good is subjective and is a personal experience but I think that is largely driven as well by what you've already heard. It's like saying, you don't know what sounds like the best until you've heard the best ... til then, you are limited to what your current experiences have given you.

My point being, a guy who lives in a deserted island and who's played through a his same axe and same amp for the past 50 years of his life won't know if something sounds even remotely better until he actually hears and plays someone else's gear

In which case, ignorance may be a blessing LOL

yes  before I am very happy with what I have until I discover...



Philmusic 

[Xelly]

yes  before I am very happy with what I have until I discover...



Philmusic 

Sapul!!

[analog.matt]

a guy who lives in a deserted island and who's played through a his same axe and same amp for the past 50 years of his life won't know if something sounds even remotely better until he actually hears and plays someone else's gear

In which case, ignorance may be a blessing LOL

yes. exposure is very important. Unless one is like those one in a hundred million souls who are able to invent something "out of the blue" without any sort of influence from other parts of the world. Kung may ganung pinoy, baka siya pa ang dadalawin ng mga taga ibang bansa. unfortunately, such is a rare case.

yung luthier namin dito, every year umaalis for the US not just to promote his guitars but to learn of the new developments. siguro call it na lang professional development. it's a good way to grow and broaden one's perspective. a good way to be humble too.

actually, yung pagiging insular ng Pinas,  yan ang nagiging sakit, pinoys think that Pinoy's are the best (or the products that pinoys make), but then when s**t happens, we expect help from the US and so so countries. so hindi ako magugulat kung meron talagang magpupuri sa isang local maker/builder like there's no tomorrow. Not everyday can we see someone say "ah yeah, I know that thing is way better, but this is all i can afford at the moment".

also, there's the business side of things, we MAY get to know all of these uber good stuff. but at the end, for the seller eh kikita ba? may bibili ba? Hence one might have to focus on what the masses can afford in order to earn a buck. The rich and abundant, will get whatever's out there on their own channels/means with or without shops/luthiers/guitar techs because they can easily afford it.

but its good to be aware because one day the average Juan might just be able to afford it.

[firemodel55]

I think one's ability to say something sound's good is subjective and is a personal experience but I think that is largely driven as well by what you've already heard. It's like saying, you don't know what sounds like the best until you've heard the best ... til then, you are limited to what your current experiences have given you.

My point being, a guy who lives in a deserted island and who's played through a his same axe and same amp for the past 50 years of his life won't know if something sounds even remotely better until he actually hears and plays someone else's gear

In which case, ignorance may be a blessing LOL

Its fine if he remains on an island.  But if he expects to be paid for what he does and he sounds awful he better step up and discard his personal experience.  In short, if you want people to pay to hear you whether on an album or live just make sure that your tone is ear friendly.  Parang Mr. Big and Stone Temple Pilots concert sa Araneta.  Hindi pa upgraded ang P.A. system pero ang mahal tumira ng ticket -- kasama na diyan ang promoter dapat nagpadagdag pa siya ng P.A.  It does not take my whole life's lesson to tell me that masama ang tunog ng P.A.  Ang hindi ko lang alam ay dahil ba: 1) Masama ang quality ng P.A. nila OR 2) Underpowered at kulang sa speakers.  The bottomline is for a supposedly premier coliseum talo pa siya sa maliit na Kalang Theater sa Singapore. 

[firemodel55]

I think the general masses don't know good music today.  How many of the general masses of today listen to vinyl?  or even bought a 'legal' CD?  Their music, I consider cheap.  For some reason, I can never hum a Parokya song because they sound so crass or vulgar but also the melody just does not grab you like a good Guns N Roses song which just gets you too sing.  Mababaw talaga ang Parokya.  I would even consider their System of a Down cover as plagarism.  They never acknowledged System of a Down or paid royalties, I think.  Eh... binaboy pa nila ang kanta.  Yet ang Pinoy gagawan pa ng full production MTV with budget ang mababaw na kanta?  If we allow this to continue, nobody will pay for good music anymore at mawawalan ng trabaho ang mga musikero.

I just want to add another insight.... Do you notice that the only thing running the local Rock Music Scene right now are mega concerts all in one packages like the Tanduay Rhum tour?  In fact, may anthem sila which is catchy BUT the reality is:

1) Ang daming selection ng banda because no one band can hold its own to be a headliner --- which shows a growing weakness in song writing.  Not too mention parang pa kaunti lang ang new material na tugtog nila. 
2) They sound awful onstage.  Nobody cares about quality gear anymore and how it comes out in the P.A.  Kaya pati ang mga so-called 'kamay at technique players' ay hindi na rin naririnig.
3) You need an alcoholic drink to push your songs?   So we need to write more stupid songs about drinking and forget to mention the downside of drinking.
4) Bands practice less because of their shorter set.  I was surprised that before Steve Vai goes on tour with his band, he practices with them 8 hours a day from Monday to Saturday for four straight weeks.  Sinong local band ang gumagawa niyan ngayon?  Speak up mga technique people at mga its all in the hands guitarists na one fourth lang ng banda.
5) Does anybody buy the CDs of the headlining bands at the Tanduay Rockfest?  So if we were suddenly to ban alcohol then our local rock bands have no source of income to buy new gear and to make new music?

My main message -- Not only with regards to gear but with regards to music:  Spend More money on artists so they can upgrade their gear and food to sustain them to write music.

[stringman]

  Spend More money on artists so they can upgrade their gear and food to sustain them to write music.

You hit that right Alex!!

[stringman]

Actually, that goes to show us that despite one set of specifications, Chris Kinman knows that his pickups might sound different over time. 

Its funny but this year I was pleasantly surprised when Jim Rolph sent me a Cornell Dublier NOS oil cap.  Grabe bago pa at nasa plastic bag na maliit.  I and Arie were shocked with its performance on single coils.  Walang sinabi ang scalarizer.  Heh heh.  Unfortunately, he did not have any more of it.  For me, its the best oil capacitor for guitar.  And this is my point, I never heard of any local winders recommend me a Cornell Dublier .... In fact, I bet they don't even know about it.  Its pretty clear to me that our knowledge about guitar gear in this country of ours is limited -- way much much better than 20 years ago but I believe still 60 years behind the U.S.

And to add to this, oil capacitors would be the best investment so far on single coils. The stock or aftermarket single coils may have the bite, put they still don't have the punch to deliver the tone. Heck, even re-issue strats and tele's couldn't get that vintage sound.

[bryvincent]

what about yung Greco Dry Z / Dry 82, Burny VH1 or Ibanez Super 58 pickups on the early 80s japanese "lawsuit" LPs?  they have pretty good reputation and heard good things about them and prices for them(at least for the Dry Z) are getting higher. i love the Dry 82 on my recently acquired greco but thats my only experience on them. never tried the Dry Z or VH1.

and BTW, the designer for the Dry Z pickups named Jun Takano still makes pickups today under the K&T Brand
http://music.geocities.jp/kt_vintage_guitars/kthomepage/kt-mainmenu.html

[shadowmaster]

How about Korean made Tesla pickups?

http://www.teslapickups.com/

These people are serious about their business and a few of their pickups are even more expensive than those commonly owned Dimarzio or Seymour Duncan pickups.

They even now have a growing list of guitar manufacturers putting Tesla pickups on their guitars.

[grasyaps]

1.The winders have no exposure OR
2. They don't have the ear to produce good sounding pickups

1. YES. Better put, the winders dont have enough/extensive exposure.

2. I wouldnt be so quick to say that. Its like saying completely na walang talent ang Asian ears.

although 1 and 2 are closely related. talent is honed with experience and exposure. also if you could afford to put money into research and have plenty of access to these vintage pickups and study them, to know what makes them good or not, then of course, you are more likely to come up with better, if not the best sounding pickups around.

However, considering they dont have the same access like their american counterparts, starting from scratch and creating them from their own RnD efforts (e.g. Fernandes who created the VH1s and the L5000, who are revered by many are the best in its class), you cant say they dont have the ears for great sounding pickups.

[firemodel55]

How about Korean made Tesla pickups?

http://www.teslapickups.com/

These people are serious about their business and a few of their pickups are even more expensive than those commonly owned Dimarzio or Seymour Duncan pickups.

They even now have a growing list of guitar manufacturers putting Tesla pickups on their guitars.

I stopped using DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan a long time ago.  To me, they are the vanilla flavor of American Pickups -- the lowest on the rung.  So why should I even care about Korean made Tesla pickups?

[firemodel55]

what about yung Greco Dry Z / Dry 82, Burny VH1 or Ibanez Super 58 pickups on the early 80s japanese "lawsuit" LPs?  they have pretty good reputation and heard good things about them and prices for them(at least for the Dry Z) are getting higher. i love the Dry 82 on my recently acquired greco but thats my only experience on them. never tried the Dry Z or VH1.

and BTW, the designer for the Dry Z pickups named Jun Takano still makes pickups today under the K&T Brand
http://music.geocities.jp/kt_vintage_guitars/kthomepage/kt-mainmenu.html

I think the intro to his website says it all.... SINCE 2008.  Jim Rolph has been winding pickups since 1959.  Enough Said.

[jefisipbata]

I think the intro to his website says it all.... SINCE 2008.  Jim Rolph has been winding pickups since 1959.  Enough Said.

Reading Gil Yaron's website, he said he started building guitars in 2007. Why would you trust someone that green? And a bass player at that.

Of course i'm just kidding, just want to point out that your argument on Jun Takano is invalid, he just started building pickups on his own on 2008.

[firemodel55]

1. YES. Better put, the winders dont have enough/extensive exposure. (AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER WILL)

2. I wouldnt be so quick to say that. Its like saying completely na walang talent ang Asian ears. (I WOULD BE QUICK ENOUGH.  ITS JUST THAT THE WESTERN GUYS ARE MORE TALENTED AT IT. ITS LIKE ASKING SOMEBODY IN AFRICA TO COOK PINOY ADOBO.  THE AVERAGE AFRICAN WON'T GET IT BUT SOME EXCEPTIONAL AFRICANS MAY COOK GOOD PINOY ADOBO BUT THEY ARE NO MATCH FOR EXCEPTIONAL FILIPINOS WHO CAN COOK GREAT ADOBO. THE WESTERN GUYS GREW UP ON WESTERN MUSIC, GREW UP WITH THE GOLDEN ERA GUITARS AND TUBE AMPS, GREW UP ON TUBES, GREW ON VINYL, CREATED THE SOUND OF ROCK AND BLUES, ATTENDED ACTUAL CONCERTS WERE MARSHALLS WERE RUNNING AT 10, ETC.  VERSUS ASIANS WHO FIRST HEARD ROCK MUSIC ON THE TINY SPEAKER OF THEIR RADIO, WHO FIRST STARTED OUT WITH TINY SOUNDING DISTORTION AND OVERDRIVE, WHO DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LIVING SPACE TO CRANK THEIR GUITAR TUBE AMPS, WHO GREW UP ON TINY TREBLE SOUNDING INSTRUMENTS, ETC. )

although 1 and 2 are closely related. talent is honed with experience and exposure. also if you could afford to put money into research and have plenty of access to these vintage pickups and study them, to know what makes them good or not, then of course, you are more likely to come up with better, if not the best sounding pickups around.

However, considering they dont have the same access like their american counterparts, starting from scratch and creating them from their own RnD efforts (e.g. Fernandes who created the VH1s and the L5000, who are revered by many are the best in its class), you cant say they dont have the ears for great sounding pickups.

I believe that the Fernandez VH1s and the L5000s are no match against the work of Rolph, Wolfetone, Lollar, Bareknuckles, CRCoils, Amiltifano, etc...  Over the years, NO japanese pickups has inspired me like the great U.S. pickup winders and I don't hear AT ALL about them in the boutique community and the guitar experts in the U.S. 

But we are begging the question.  Are we hoping for some kind of Asian Pickup Winding Messiah when the best winders in the U.S. are already doing great sounding pickups?  For what reason?  Para maka mura?  Are you willing to pay an Asian Pickup Winder the same price of Rolph or Throbaks?  If not, whats the point of waiting for this yet unknown Asian winder?

If you read between the lines of my first post, JTRibiloff not only has experience but owns over 400 guitars and was allowed access by George Gruhn to the so called vintage guitars that sounded good and bad.  Jim Rolph's pickups which I use and I am quite close to Jim owns over 200 VINTAGE GUITARS (including bursts and 50s and 60s Fenders) not to mention old marshall amps, fender tweeds, vintage hi watts, a Trainwreck, etc...  He does not own any guitar beyond the 60s.  When I asked him what makes him different from other vintage winders, his answer was simple ...  I hear those old pickups sound on actual vintage guitars.  As I mentioned, he started winding pickups in 1959.  He had pickup magnets of the good sounding pickups profiled in chemical composition way back in the 60s.  When the portable VHS first came out, he filmed old pickups as he slowly unwound them from the bobbin to understand their winding pattern.  Jim had toured with his wife playing in bands in the 50s and 60s.  His current customers as I recall include: Joe Walsh, Keith Richards, Billy Gibbons, Richie Sambora, Mick Mars, Robben Ford etc...  What you have with Jim Rolph is more than just measurements but a collective knowledge of sounds from artists and how great sounding pickups sounded in actual vintage guitars that escapes the plastic boxes found in DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan, EMG, etc. 

Now don't get me wrong.  If you have an average sounding guitar, its not worth spending.  You would economically do well with DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan or EMG.  If you own an SX or an Indonesian or China guitar, 'fill in the name' budget guitar, stick to tesla and even the Japanese pickups.  That's fine but you do get what you pay for and unfortunately, for guitar gear I noticed that the real good sounding high end and boutique stuff -- assuming the whole chain is really top notch in terms of character and sound -- is more than the sum of its parts and NOT just an incremental improvement with decreasing marginal utility.  As you go up the chain, each piece that really performs brings in an EXPONENTIAL improvement thats hard to explain.   

[firemodel55]

Reading Gil Yaron's website, he said he started building guitars in 2007. Why would you trust someone that green? And a bass player at that.

Of course i'm just kidding, just want to point out that your argument on Jun Takano is invalid, he just started building pickups on his own on 2008.

Gil Yaron started repairing Bursts in the Hollywood Scene back in the 80s.  Thats when he started profiling bursts and 50s Teles and late 50s Strats.  In recent discussions with Arie, we were surprised that bass players seem to make some exceptional gear for guitar.  For example, Chris Kinman plays bass and so does Gil Yaron.  Both know how to play rudimentary guitar but both are bass players by music profession.

Our conclusion:  The Bass Player actually hears what your guitar sounds like when you play.  In contrast, when a guitarist plays the guitar in a live setting his attention and consciousness is divided between his tone, timbre, notes, hands, fingering and thinking about what to play next.  In the same guitar players are in a better position to assess the bass sound for the same reason.

[bryvincent]

I think the intro to his website says it all.... SINCE 2008.  Jim Rolph has been winding pickups since 1959.  Enough Said.

thats probably the year his company was founded not the year he started winding since as mentioned he designed the Dry Z pickups on the Greco guitars in the early 80s. as you can see on some pics on his site, it looks like he got quite a lot of "exposure" on vintage guitars too.