MP3 SoundClips Suck and Why They Shouldn't be used as basis for Selection

[firemodel55]

Late late year I got thrashed for putting down soundclips and I just couldn't put a finger why it just didn't feel right in comparison to demo guitar by Jim Rolph on a phoneline which as pointed out here are digital signals.  Well, here is an excerpt from the latest issue of Tonequest Report December 2012 (which by the way up to now I am the ONLY subscriber in this country -- what a dissappointment):

"We have recently been reading Neil Young's biography, "Waging Heavy Peace," in which he describes his latest project referred to in the book as Pure Tone - a new digital-to-analog music player and online distribution model.  Neil has become dismayed over the degradation of sound that has occurred in digital music stored on CDs and in compressed MP3 files, noting in the book that an MP3 file contains about five percent of the data present in a Pure Tone file or even a vinyl record.  We have often created MP3 files direct from CDs using Sony SoundForge software, which allows you to select the compression level and file size for MP3s, and the difference in sound is depressing.  Heavy digital compression squashes music into a dull, linear bandwidth with dramatic low end loss, shrill, thin highs, and a shallow depth of field.  Neil's vision is to provide studio master-quality, high resolution recordings with Pure Tone players that can present what used to be heard on vinyl, now mostly forgotten and forsaken for the convenience of iTunes.  A cool aspect of Pure tone as he describes it is a Reveal feature that allows the listener to hear and compare the difference between a Pure tone music file and the reduced resolution and fidelity of an MP3 or CD for the ultimate oh sh#t moment.  We hope Neil succeeds with his Pure Tone venture, and despite the obstacles, he well may, since his obsession with recapturing the rich, full fidelity of recorded music has caused him to become, as he put it, a "pain in the ass" when it comes to tone.  Nothing new there... This from someone who, accoridng to Larry Cragg, could tell when his stage rig was running on less than 120 volts.

Now what does this have to do with the new Gibson ES330?  Many people will be introduced to this guitar through online video clips and MP3 files that cannot and will not reveal any of the subtle and not-so-subtle qualities of tone and sound that we're about to describe here.  In this regard, we too feel obligated to be an unapologetic "pain in the ass." The convenience and portability of digital sound files can't be argued but neither can the corresponding degradation of sound quality that a compressed MP3 delivers.  It's the dirty little secret that no one really wants to talk about.  Yeah, music today sounds like crap, but who can argue with storing 1,000 crappy-sounding songs on yer phone or recording a 24-track 'album' on a PC for little more expense than the time it takes to record it?  Meanwhile, video clips have become the default method of introducing gear supposedly conceived to provide you with "better tone" - "better tone" that can't really be experienced through digital sound files, video demos, and finished recordings compressed on CDs.  Yeah, you got a great tone in the studio, but no one will ever hear it.  Who cares?  Well, we care, and we suspect you do too.

If you just can't get near enough to a 330 to play one yourself, go ahead and take the plunge on our recommendations.  We lack no confidence in this regard, but please don't expect to make an informed decision based on a youtube demo.  The full effect of your impending epiphany can only be experienced with the guitar in hand.  Sound and video files compressed for the Web are the tonefreak's blow up doll -- an audio fantasy trip that bears little resemblance to the actual sound of the music you might make at home, in a room, and on stage.  Sorry, that's our story and we're stickin' to it, but we completely understand why the easier choice is to disregard the pitifully lame fidelity of MP3 files and ProTools recordings, happily accpeting sh#t as the the new 'normal."  If this sounds like a bitter rant from a waning generation weaned on vinyl and tube hifi, well, that is exactly what it is. Fight for the potatoes!"

So, I say to those who love soundclips so much and use them to establish their expertise and confidence, Up YoUr ARse!

[treblinkalovescene]

Do you care for .flac then?

[firemodel55]

Do you care for .flac then?

I suggest you ask Neil Young.  I don't listen to clips on the web.  For some reason, its not worth my time.  Tried to get 24/96 official files though but they don't allow sales to us in the Philippines.  That shut down my interest in over the web music.

[paengkee]

soundclips work for those who dont know any better. and as we know, business is all about selling things to people who dont know any better than you. while a squier soundclip on youtube played really horribly on a DS1 type pedal wont win YOU (or even me) over, somehow, somewhere it will win somebody over.

i still believe in testing guitars out in person compared to relying on soundclips. hell if i based my most recent purchase on a soundclip, i wouldnt have bought the damn thing. i just find it funny when people into recording (my field too) buy gear they hear on the internet and when they use them, they all sound like crap.

im one of those few people who can actually tell the difference between 320mp3 and flac. though i still dont have the sensitivity to compare flac to wav masters.

an mp3 soundclip vs a lossless soundclip of a bad guitar is still a soundclip of a BAD guitar.

[treblinkalovescene]

Recordings don't really do guitars justice. Una, there's always the issue of feel. Yeah, pickups and wood might sound okay through whatever recording setup you have but how's the prospective buyer supposed to know how the thing plays? I mean, this is under the assumption that you're not buying something built by a master luthier na you can go blind.

Soundwise, there's just too much aside from the compression/degradation associated with the mp3 format. Room acoustics, mic-ing, amps/cabs used (ibang usapan pag simulations), wiring in the room, pedals (if any), cables, tubes, etc.

They could give you a really rough approximate of how the guitar should act, or at the very least if it's bright or dark or spanky sounding etc but don't expect to nail any detailed nuances down with just a clip.

In other news...

"Hi, my name is Andy and welcome to ProGuitarShop.com."

[fizz450_03]

for everyday music consumption, good quality mp3s are ok

but for the purpose of judging something, i think hearing it live is still king! 

[guitarwiz02]

Just an advertising/marketing plan or strategy from Neil. Ha ha!

[IncX]

when i read "Neil Young" i stopped reading the long text.

years ago Trent Reznor (back when Fragile was released) was interviewed, here's how i remember the interview sounding:

interviewer: i understood that you used all digital recording... Neil Young said that digital recording takes away the soul and the real sound of an instrument when its recorded this way.

Trent: neil young cannot tell his a$$ from a hole when it comes to digital recording, i do not know why he has an opinion about it

while it is also true that Trent Reznor isnt really the guy you would ask "should i get a Gibson or an Epiphone?" ... Neil Young isn't also the type of guy i'd listen to when it comes to guitars and technology.

[firemodel55]

when i read "Neil Young" i stopped reading the long text.

years ago Trent Reznor (back when Fragile was released) was interviewed, here's how i remember the interview sounding:

interviewer: i understood that you used all digital recording... Neil Young said that digital recording takes away the soul and the real sound of an instrument when its recorded this way.

Trent: neil young cannot tell his a$$ from a hole when it comes to digital recording, i do not know why he has an opinion about it

while it is also true that Trent Reznor isnt really the guy you would ask "should i get a Gibson or an Epiphone?" ... Neil Young isn't also the type of guy i'd listen to when it comes to guitars and technology.

Thats where you are awfully wrong dude... I bet  you that he knows more about tone than you or me....  Regardless of what you may think, Tonequest makes a more valid point and thats the important take out.

[techbp]

That's the reason why I miss my collection of cassette tapes, inaamag na sila ngayon and wala na ko player.
Recording before were done using analog signals - kahit yung 4 track recorder lang. Iba parin yung may "dumi" sa record lalo sa guitars, pag masyado ng enhanced ng software then compressed pa for production, wala na. 

[treblinkalovescene]

That's the reason why I miss my collection of cassette tapes, inaamag na sila ngayon and wala na ko player.
Recording before were done using analog signals - kahit yung 4 track recorder lang. Iba parin yung may "dumi" sa record lalo sa guitars, pag masyado ng enhanced ng software then compressed pa for production, wala na. 

Some bands use this instead of amp distortion.

[nathanmanansala]

yeah mp3s suck. that said, clips of any kind, recorded using ANY medium, are a poor basis for selecting guitars anyway. you cant hear how the guitar will feel in your hands. if you can't test it that way, you always have to have some sort of return or replace agreement. unless you never planned on playing the thing much anyway (like if it were a vintage piece), or it was an experiment/gamble (and you'll be deciding later if its a keeper or not).

kaya, pag acoustic, you absolutely have to have someone bang out a few chords on the thing while you stand a few feet away too.

[skunkyfunk]

Hay naku.  It's like comparing a huge life-size tarpaulin   of the Eiffel tower (shot in RAW format in 25MP) and the real thing.

Sidenote:  I am a recording guy, so soundclips are IMPORTANT to me, so I know how gear registers once recorded.

But then, if you tell me to buy an amp, a pedal, or a  set of pickups based on soundclips AND ONLY SOUNDCLIPS, hell no.  Even the best recordings on YT are not very good representations of how gear sounds IF YOU YOURSELF TEST THEM. 

Now if you  squash the data to MP3, then you lose a lot more information.

[nathanmanansala]

Hay naku.  It's like comparing a huge life-size tarpaulin   of the Eiffel tower (shot in RAW format in 25MP) and the real thing.

Sidenote:  I am a recording guy, so soundclips are IMPORTANT to me, so I know how gear registers once recorded.

But then, if you tell me to buy an amp, a pedal, or a  set of pickups based on soundclips AND ONLY SOUNDCLIPS, hell no.  Even the best recordings on YT are not very good representations of how gear sounds IF YOU YOURSELF TEST THEM. 

Now if you  squash the data to MP3, then you lose a lot more information.

to your credit though, you get great guitar tones sa recordings sa skunk productions.

[skunkyfunk]

to your credit though, you get great guitar tones sa recordings sa skunk productions.

Kaw naman <sabay kurot>

Well Nathan that is the main idea... getting good guitar tones requires two things:  1.  Getting a rig that is satisfactory enough (to the producer's standards) and 2.  Make sure there is enough time to experiment and capture the source.   

Nowadays, it is much easier to cheat with less-than-ideal gear with plugins and emulations.  It's very possible that most people who want to get their time's worth would not want to undergo the hassle of hours of tweaking.

 

[paengkee]

after all this, the end-listener usually barely even cares.

[techbp]

after all this, the end-listener usually barely even cares.

yes, because not everyone has an ear for a good tone, hindi nila na praktis kumbaga - parang ako haha. Ang importante eh yung buong music, yung melody, yung meaning ng song, yung artist , yung lyrics - yung tone? Tune ba kamo? yan ang isasagot hahaha.   

[IncX]

after all this, the end-listener usually barely even cares.

not only the end-listeners ... but, most of your bandmates too lol as long as you play your parts right, and not go to the extremes of sounding bad.

-*-

guitar nerds are the only ones who care about the extremes of "good tone"

[techbp]

not only the end-listeners ... but, most of your bandmates too lol as long as you play your parts right, and not go to the extremes of sounding bad.

-*-

guitar nerds are the only ones who care about the extremes of "good tone"

I couldn't agree more buddy

[gyrome]

not only the end-listeners ... but, most of your bandmates too lol as long as you play your parts right, and not go to the extremes of sounding bad.

-*-

guitar nerds are the only ones who care about the extremes of "good tone"

lol

[firemodel55]

after all this, the end-listener usually barely even cares.

Yup and I bet those guys don't even want to pay for your gate fee.  Might as well play for guys who DO care and are willing to pay for your tone.

[firemodel55]

not only the end-listeners ... but, most of your bandmates too lol as long as you play your parts right, and not go to the extremes of sounding bad.

-*-

guitar nerds are the only ones who care about the extremes of "good tone"

Thats fine as long its OK for you guys not to get paid because you sound bad.  I mean suwerte kayo kung bayaran kayo maski na panget tone --- nasa tama naman ang organizer or audience NOT to pay you the budget kung masama tone di ba?

[firemodel55]

yes, because not everyone has an ear for a good tone, hindi nila na praktis kumbaga - parang ako haha. Ang importante eh yung buong music, yung melody, yung meaning ng song, yung artist , yung lyrics - yung tone? Tune ba kamo? yan ang isasagot hahaha.

Actually, sa Philippine situation, kasing rami ang BAD music, BAD melody, BAD song, BAD artist, BAD lyrics as BAD tone.  Dapat siguro kung hindi maka-praktis sa tone, magpalit na lang ng career o kaya mag-audition na lang sa Pinoy Idol.  Mas cheap naman kasi libre naman ang vocal chords di ba?

[IncX]

Thats fine as long its OK for you guys not to get paid because you sound bad.  I mean suwerte kayo kung bayaran kayo maski na panget tone --- nasa tama naman ang organizer or audience NOT to pay you the budget kung masama tone di ba?

di naman sound bad eh ... di naman siguro kailangan perfect tone gitara mo para makuha ng bare minimun ng magandang tunog, di ba?

or kailangan mo ba ng perfect tone para tumugtog ng "its not about the money money money, we dont need your money money money?"

[MrGobots]

slightly off-topic:

I am just wondering, what with all these debates on which sounds better than what or who's credible than whom...

Why do I never hear anyone here argue about tone on a musical context? Pagsintunado ka kahit anong ganda ng gear tunog ta.e pa rin yan. Its always about name-dropping something someone read from somewhere or believe me because Im all this and that...

My point is: tone is supposed to be a tool for making music and with the billions of moneys spent on the advancement of producing tone, none of these techs have even gone close to producing the tone you want for the music you want to produce? Does it always have to be the tone that's out of reach by many? Why? And for what music? Maybe you'd want to re-evaluate why you are evaluating tone in the first place. Its sad if you're doing it just to be a notch up the next guy.

Back to topic:
Soundclips help a lot, be it mp3 or any format, because it tells you a lot of what is possible with a particular gear with x mic and y interface. It gives you an idea of the potential of that particular guitar through an amp etc... You'd be an idiot to think though that that's exactly what it sounds in person. And if it sounds good on a file format that sucks, won't it generally just sound better on the real thing? While it is true that recordings cannot get 100% of the real thing, if you're satisfied with the 60-70% thats on the recording then why not? Meron bang photogenic na audio, sa recording gumanganda panget sa personal? (pwera pilosopo, rendered raw ang usapan hindi yung pinaganda na ng experto)... teka, on a different context, kung experto ka sa pagpapaganda ng sound, won't you be able make a shi.tty guitar get good tone on a recording?