i STILL swear by my egyptian-papyrus-in-antique-baby-rhino-tear-duct-oil caps

[Rmansh]

^ of course another angle po yan.

some times when people discuss things, they assume na you already have a good guitar and a good amp etc

yes i know. my post is just a reminder. marami dito ang bili ng bili napupunta sa walang katuturan yun upgrades nila. thinking a set of high end caps will transform your guitar to butik tone monster

[firemodel55]

caps shunted to ground from the signal line provides filtering. so how do cap types matter when your 500K tone pot is at max (10), then?

There you go... whatever is connected loads down the signal.  And how it is loaded is affected by value and type of cap. 

[Musikerochan]

There you go... whatever is connected loads down the signal.  And how it is loaded is affected by value and type of cap. 

teka, linawin ko lang ha: asan ang tone pot sa premise ng discussion natin, full CW o CCW?

[nathanmanansala]

i have oil caps in all my guitars, though, i admit i dont really hear the difference between a 0.022 PIO and a 0.022 orange drop. and its not from lack of trying. i actually alligator clipped a few of those caps (6 different ones). walang difference unless you're comparing caps of different values. a 0.047 definitely sounds darker than a 0.015 even when the tone knob is all the way up. unless its a no-load tone pot.

mas nadidinig ko yung difference between a volume pot that measures 500k (like the ones i put on my 'bucker loaded guitars) vs a 300k volume pot (like the ones that come on non-historic gibsons) and I think anyone can hear the difference too (assuming you have decent pickups in the guitar. which is why i always put the pots that read highest on the neck pickup (where the most treble is needed), then the bridge pickup, and i always choose pots that measure at least 500k for buckers. if its less than 500k, i use them for tone pots na lang.

i use the PIO caps because they look good to me. in a control cavity that no one ever sees. hmmm, maybe i should install a transparent cavity cover. anyway, i know they're there. and i feel better. and that makes me play better. sort of like wearing your lucky jock straps to every basketball game. plus, hey, its MY MONEY AND I'LL WASTE IT AS I PLEASE.

also, if i sound crappy, then i can't blame it on anything/anyone but myself kasi the $2.2k guitar already has the $700 pickup set, the $45 a piece pots and the $60 caps. but i really can't hear the difference.


_________________
disclaimer: i suddenly realized a lot of the newer people here dont know me well enough to know that i'm almost always kidding about my crappy gear (and most  other things i bother to post about). the guitar isn't 2.2k, the pickups more like $120 a piece, the pots are regular CTS (they ARE at least 500k) and the caps, though they are a bit on the expensive side, are WAY less than $60.

[nathanmanansala]

caps shunted to ground from the signal line provides filtering. so how do cap types matter when your 500K tone pot is at max (10), then?

i'll vouch for that one. meron talagang effect. thats why you have no-load tone pots that are completely out of the circuit once they click past the detent.

thats also why some recommend 0.015 caps for LP neck pickups and 0.022 for the bridge. and why single coil guitars come with a 0.047 caps for "the vintage tone".

may difference even when all the way up. its very slight but its there.

ang hindi ko alam is kung may difference ba kung 250k or 500k ang gamit mo na tone pot? except maybe that the 250k tone pot has a smoother taper.

[Musikerochan]

^puro 500K log pots gamit ko, i feel the high resistance keeps the cap - regardless of value - from influencing the signal.

but as for cap types, i simply use ceramic or mylars whenever possible. metal film if i wanted an exact value. i only use the tone pots anyway just to roll off some treble if the amp is too bright and when tuning mostly.

pero maganda yung pots with on/off switches to effectively take out the caps. for testing cap types, mainam yung 4-way rotary to test caps of the same value but different materials.

do you think it's time to introduce variable capacitors na lang instead of pot+cap as tone controls? im thinking a sakto yung range na 0-100nF.

[nathanmanansala]

do you think it's time to introduce variable capacitors na lang instead of pot+cap as tone controls? im thinking a sakto yung range na 0-100nF.

isn't that what wiring the cap to a variable resistor (the pot) does? varies the capacitance? sorry. all i know of electronics is what i learned from wiring guitars.

[horge]

^puro 500K log pots gamit ko, i feel the high resistance keeps the cap - regardless of value - from influencing the signal.

The cap is not going to be a factor until resistance of the tone pot approaches the reactance of the cap,
which happens when you roll off to 5-ish or lower on the tone pot. Even then, that cap becomes less and
less a factor the higher your pots' resistance (500k, vs 250k): a greater output impedance tends to mean
your pickups are more sensitive to outside influences.

[Musikerochan]

sir the pot acts as a "gate" to limit the amount of signal that gets dumped to ground by the cap. a variable cap OTOH will allow for a more precise capacitance variation, and IMO opens up better tonal possibilities than a simple pot+cap setup IMO. that sounds fun.

[nathanmanansala]

ah. ganun pala yun.

see? you can learn something from PhilMusic.

[Musikerochan]

The cap is not going to be a factor until resistance of the tone pot approaches the reactance of the cap,
which happens when you roll off to 5-ish or lower on the tone pot. Even then, that cap becomes less and
less a factor the higher your pots' resistance (500k, vs 250k): a greater output impedance tends to mean
your pickups are more sensitive to outside influences.

this.

that's why i use a 500K pot just to be on the safe side of things since i rarely use the tone pot anyway. that's why i asked earlier kung saang part ng tone pot ang focus ng cap effect: full clockwise ba or CCW? wala pa lang sagot.

somebody needs to come up with a small variable cap as an alternative to tone pots and caps. or log pots with extra 2 pin switches to disconnect the cap altogether. ang meron kasi madalas ay linear pots with switch eh. well except for push-pull pots na medyo pricy for this purpose.

[ubersam]

There you go... whatever is connected loads down the signal.  And how it is loaded is affected by value and type of cap.

Actually, in the case of guitar tone pots, just the value. And here is the techno-geek explanation. As previously mentioned, the cap provides filtering. To be more precise, the cap forms a passive Low Pass resistor/capacitor, or RC, filter. The R in this case is the impedance of the pickup (and the tone pot resistance). The capacitor is shunted to ground, meaning, the signal that passes through it gets dumped to ground, i.e. it never reaches the next stage, i.e. not in the signal path. Imagine a straight street from point A to point B and the capacitor is another street perpendicular to it, and it leads to a cliff. Now imagine the cars going from point A to point B are the guitar signal. Any car that makes a turn into the perpendicular street ends up falling off the cliff, i.e. they never reach point B. That is why cap types in this case do not matter, just the value.

Where the cap type could make a difference is when it is in the signal path, like if it was used as a treble bleed on the volume pot. Why? Because the signal that passes through it (and does not get dumped through the tone control) gets passed to the next stage (ex. amp input, effects pedal). In other words, the cap is in the signal path.

[ubersam]

this.

that's why i use a 500K pot just to be on the safe side of things since i rarely use the tone pot anyway. that's why i asked earlier kung saang part ng tone pot ang focus ng cap effect: full clockwise ba or CCW? wala pa lang sagot.

The tone pot works with the cap to vary the cutoff frequency of the RC filter*. All the signal that passes through the tone pot/cap string is shunted to ground (see my post above). So, regardless of the pot's rotation, whether full CW or CCW, the only thing affected is the cutoff frequency.

(*Sidenote: it's actually more of an RLC filter because the pickup has inductance (L))

[iceblink-luck]

nice! id subscribed for tone geekness!

[horge]

...That is why cap types in this case do not matter, just the value.

Where the cap type could make a difference is when it is in the signal path, like if it was used as a treble bleed on the volume pot. Why? Because the signal that passes through it (and does not get dumped through the tone control) gets passed to the next stage (ex. amp input, effects pedal). In other words, the cap is in the signal path.

When the tone pot is rolled off completely (think me dyslexic, hence CW/CCW are counterproductive
descriptives, lol) the cap is the key resistance left in play, which means all of the higher frequencies
go to ground. That's part of how the output tone is actually controlled. Did I get that right?

That out of the way, I feel that there are two sub-avenues by which cap TYPES can matter:

There's material deterioration over time, linked to the obsolescence of certain capacitor types (e.g.
"papyrus/antique baby rhino tearduct oil"). Different materials (types) deteriorate differently, but
the end result is that electrical properties will change, including actual capacitance. The face value
in microfarads may no longer be accurate (the actual value already varying within tolerances out
of the factory). Kaya, if we compare tone using two equally-old, same-value caps of different types,
we may hear a difference --not directly because the caps are of different type, but rather because
they've aged differently and now have different capacitance. Minsan pa open/short ang isa.
 
Unfortunately some "tone connoisseurs" will ascribe any difference in tone solely to capacitor TYPE,
as if THIS or THAT type of cap will produce a particular tone. E kaso nga, talagang crapshoot 'yan,
kasi even two caps of the same type, from the same production-batch out of the same factory will
have slightly different capacitance (but within tolerance) brand new. E paano pa if they've aged
30+ years, and under likely-different environmental conditions? It's as ridiculous as claiming that
ash wood produces this tone while pine produces that tone, without taking into consideration all
of the variance in grain alignment/density, not just between  two pine trees, but between any
two slabs from a single pine, never mind the many species of pine, the seasoning, etc...
 ...but I digress. 

Another possible avenue is microphonics, either inherent or acquired over time. Ceramic caps, for
example, are more prone to it than mylar caps... however, other components in the circuit are
subject to the phenomenon, such as the pickups themselves, and can make it difficult to isolate
the cap as 'chief author' of any tone-change via microphony. Ultimately, "tone connoisseurs"
don't really pimp the kinds of caps that are prone to this problem/phenomenon, so this seems to
me a non-issue (or nearly so) with respect to myth-busting/making.



Nabanggit na rin lang (twice) ang "tone connoisseurs"....
Mahirap na makipag-argue with some of them, kasi their ultimate fallback is often the claim that
their ears are more sensitive than yours or even diagnostic equipment: as if such a claim could
be readily proven/disproved. True or not, such a claim, bundled with arrogance, is often code for
"I can't play well enough to distinguish myself, so I'll build/buy a rep as a gear collector/expert."
They seek to distinguish themselves, so for them it's a competition.

Some of us don't crave recognition, but collect, mod, study (and yes, play) for the joy and the
fulfillment of it all. Without need for validation or accolade from others, getting better at one's
craft is a joy. Share and celebrate that joy, and we might all get along a whole lot better.

Aliw naman talaga ang hechura ng ibang caps. Kahit sabihin pa na it stays hidden from sight.
Nakaka-tuwa, and if a cap-swap inspires you, or even just tickles you, I say go for it.

Just my 2 Pesos.

[firemodel55]

teka, linawin ko lang ha: asan ang tone pot sa premise ng discussion natin, full CW o CCW?

I know that you are trying to clarify things... but beyond that, suppose that your pot is set fully at CW,  you can listen to your pot fully CW with a cap.  And then take out (desolder) the cap with pot still at CW and listen for a difference, if any.  With regards to CCW or anything in between CW and CCW, I suggest you try setting the amp at high volume.  As the volume gets louder, differences in cap types become more prominent.  Also, the other important factor are pickups...  great sounding pickups tend to choose their cap type.  Most boutique pickups really are affected by pots and caps but if your pickups are not boutique, then cap differences tend not to matter much specially on high output pickups. 

[firemodel55]

Actually, in the case of guitar tone pots, just the value. And here is the techno-geek explanation. As previously mentioned, the cap provides filtering. To be more precise, the cap forms a passive Low Pass resistor/capacitor, or RC, filter. The R in this case is the impedance of the pickup (and the tone pot resistance). The capacitor is shunted to ground, meaning, the signal that passes through it gets dumped to ground, i.e. it never reaches the next stage, i.e. not in the signal path. Imagine a straight street from point A to point B and the capacitor is another street perpendicular to it, and it leads to a cliff. Now imagine the cars going from point A to point B are the guitar signal. Any car that makes a turn into the perpendicular street ends up falling off the cliff, i.e. they never reach point B. That is why cap types in this case do not matter, just the value.

Where the cap type could make a difference is when it is in the signal path, like if it was used as a treble bleed on the volume pot. Why? Because the signal that passes through it (and does not get dumped through the tone control) gets passed to the next stage (ex. amp input, effects pedal). In other words, the cap is in the signal path.

Unfortunately uber, the way I hear it; the type does affect the treble response at the minimum despite theory.  By the very fact, that any cap can change timbre via its value which nobody can contest here, so does the type.  Because even in the same type with the same value, there is a variation in sound. Believe it or not even when shunted the cap still affects the sound... why do you think Suhr offers a blower switch and why do you think the early van halen guitars did not have tone controls (I read that the only reason Eddie's signature guitars have tone controls is because it was requested by Marketing)?  So to conclude, I think some people hear it and some people don't even if its paper sandwiched in two pieces of foil.  I and my luthier friend once spent a whole afternoon enjoying a NOS Corner Dublier on a tele and now with my Komet Aero 33 that specific cap is even more prominent than before.

[Musikerochan]

^kasi two things - and allow me to word it in a simple manner:

1) if the 500K pot were set at full CW (maximum or 10 on the dial), then you have a 500K effective resistance that provides a wall between signal path and filtering capacitor. therefore, barring the use of switched/no-load pots, the cap value (and the cap type even) wouldnt have so much an effect (if there even is any) to the signal.

2) if the pot were full CCW (minimum, zero on the dial), then you have just connected the capacitor (that is shunted to ground) to the signal line, thus filtering treble  corresponding to the cap value's cut-off frequencies resulting to a "muddy" tone.

ngayon, paano nga ba nago-audition ang iba ng caps na ginagamit nila, with the tone pot at CW or CCW? kasi i couldnt picture myself playing with the tone knob all the way down. sa amp ako mag-adjust ng treble mostly, and maybe use other spots of the tone pot sparingly kung masyado pa rin matalas ang bato ng amp.

nagiging "tone is a function of money" na naman ang usapan. bakit kaya majority ng mga sikat na circuit designers na instrument players din eh hindi ko nabasahan na nagrekomenda ng particular cap/pot types, but cap/pot VALUES instead?

because science, that's why.

[nathanmanansala]

the way i tested it was i alligator clipped a REALLY high cap (it wasnt even one would normally put on a guitar) to a tone pot, not a no-load, and compared it to my regular 0.047. even all the way up, you can hear a difference.

now, granted there might be very little difference between a 0.022 and a 0.047 since the difference is too small for human ears, when comparing a 0.047mfd to something like 1mfd you'll hear it does still roll off some highs. which makes me think a tone pot, even when set all the way up, still has some effect on the circuit.

then again, my test might be totally flawed since i know very little of the science behind it all.

oh, and the car and road going to a cliff explanation is cool. thats how i've always understood it and that if you're hearing a difference then its probably a difference in cap value, not cap type. congrats on being able to hear the difference between a 0.022 vs a 0.020 vs a 0.024.

[Musikerochan]

^a better way would be to use a 6-way rotary switch to set up a 5-cap test and have 2 sets of tests: you can toggle between A) same cap type, different values and B) same cap values, but different types. Provided shempre that within acceptable tolerances yung values ng caps to be used in (B). factor din shempre yung pot value, kaya it'd be best kung walang cap sa first position ng rotary.

IME discernible yung roll-off when using 0.047uF vs. 0.022uF. pero yung 0.022 vs a 0.020 vs a 0.024, goodluck hearing them hehehe.

IMO, the bottom line is that it's the cut-off frequency that matters.

[ubersam]

IME discernible yung roll-off when using 0.047uF vs. 0.022uF. pero yung 0.022 vs a 0.020 vs a 0.024, goodluck hearing them hehehe.

IMO, the bottom line is that it's the cut-off frequency that matters.

^This. The cutoff frequency. It's a product of the capacitor's capacitance, its value, not its type. A 0.022µF ceramic capacitor will roll-off from the exact same point as a 0.022µF polyester film capacitor. Why? Because they have the same capacitance (value). If one sounds brighter, then it isn't a 0.022µF capacitor, but a lower value. That is scientific truth, not theory.

[firemodel55]

^kasi two things - and allow me to word it in a simple manner:

1) if the 500K pot were set at full CW (maximum or 10 on the dial), then you have a 500K effective resistance that provides a wall between signal path and filtering capacitor. therefore, barring the use of switched/no-load pots, the cap value (and the cap type even) wouldnt have so much an effect (if there even is any) to the signal.

(Not my experience.  Why do you think Suhr has a blower switch and Why do you think EVH's early guitars did not have a tone pot?  Just a personal question -- Do you hear anything the difference if any?  If not, what is your current gear set up?)

2) if the pot were full CCW (minimum, zero on the dial), then you have just connected the capacitor (that is shunted to ground) to the signal line, thus filtering treble  corresponding to the cap value's cut-off frequencies resulting to a "muddy" tone.

(Since my caps are much better now than before, I do NOT anymore experience so called 'muddy' tone.  In fact, instead of timbre being modified by 'muddy' cheapo caps; my caps now modify presence and pick attack which is my proof on why cap type matters more than value.)

ngayon, paano nga ba nago-audition ang iba ng caps na ginagamit nila, with the tone pot at CW or CCW? kasi i couldnt picture myself playing with the tone knob all the way down. sa amp ako mag-adjust ng treble mostly, and maybe use other spots of the tone pot sparingly kung masyado pa rin matalas ang bato ng amp.

(Either because your caps are lousy AND your pickups are not boutique AND your amp is not up to the task.  Whew!!! That being said, the cheapo newer production caps are great for changing timbre.  So, I guess kanya kanya but cap type does create a difference aurally.)

nagiging "tone is a function of money" na naman ang usapan. bakit kaya majority ng mga sikat na circuit designers na instrument players din eh hindi ko nabasahan na nagrekomenda ng particular cap/pot types, but cap/pot VALUES instead?

(Not sure about this one because the boutique pickup guys tend to be selective of cap types e.g. Jim Rolph.  The one thing I like about Jim is that he sends me different cap types as a surprise.  Dave Stephens of Stevens Designs is also particular about caps.  Tim Mills of Bareknuckles is not so much into it but he does prescribe the new Angela caps.  Tonequest Report really believes in cap types as the write articles about NOS caps they discover.  So its seems the only guys who ascribe to cap type as having no importance are the guys who lack exposure to tone.  NOTE: I am NOT saying that other individual experiences are NOT valid its just that there are exceptions that are significantly/relevantly heard that make the assertion that cap type does not affect sound less scientific than it is presented by some here. )

because science, that's why.

[firemodel55]

^a better way would be to use a 6-way rotary switch to set up a 5-cap test and have 2 sets of tests: you can toggle between A) same cap type, different values and B) same cap values, but different types. Provided shempre that within acceptable tolerances yung values ng caps to be used in (B). factor din shempre yung pot value, kaya it'd be best kung walang cap sa first position ng rotary.

IME discernible yung roll-off when using 0.047uF vs. 0.022uF. pero yung 0.022 vs a 0.020 vs a 0.024, goodluck hearing them hehehe.

IMO, the bottom line is that it's the cut-off frequency that matters.

I sort of agree with the rotary switch because I have a varitone on my BC Rich.  I also agree that there is a difference is roll off due to different cap values which actually changes timbre -- which is cool.  But other caps types affect other properties of guitar tone other than timbre.

[firemodel55]

^This. The cutoff frequency. It's a product of the capacitor's capacitance, its value, not its type. A 0.022µF ceramic capacitor will roll-off from the exact same point as a 0.022µF polyester film capacitor. Why? Because they have the same capacitance (value). If one sounds brighter, then it isn't a 0.022µF capacitor, but a lower value. That is scientific truth, not theory.

I am NOT contesting the change of timbre is due to cap values but cap types change other areas of guitar tone and quite honestly are more useful than cutoff frequency applications specially if you have a great boutique amp to do the job for you.  In fact, I tend to select cap types that allow changes to pick attack because that's one area that is related to playing within reach of your hands.

[ubersam]

I am NOT contesting the change of timbre is due to cap values but cap types change other areas of guitar tone...

Mr. Fire, I am NOT contesting that either. I've already stated that type comes into play when it is in the signal path. It's the reason why I would use ceramic shunted to ground to filter out RF, but I would not use it in the signal path to couple one stage to the next. The reason why I would use an electrolytic in the power supply but prefer to use poly-film to couple the preamp to the phase inverter. In other words, in order to appreciate what the different types add to the sound, the signal has to pass through it. If the signal is dumped into the ground, you won't hear it. What you'll hear is the affect of the absence of what was dumped into the ground.