Best way to tell a client "Your tone sucks..."

[skunkyfunk]

so... the conclusion is there's no risk on your reputation as an engineer if you think your client's tone sucks, as long as your client's happy?

It happens all the time.  Just listen to Angee's mixes.  From stellar Cynthia Alexander to ....  huwag na baka ma-ambush ako.  Bottomline is the engineer does crazy things with hands tied sometimes.

[bloodshedd]

Our engineer told me to try a few different sounds... I think thats nice enough. ..to quote him "Me igaganda pa yan..." especially during the takes...

We also tried some weird techniques like different mic positions and "prepared guitar" stuff.

 We asked and he just commented on the sound and we told him what sound we were going for... The engineer must sort of understand the goal sound.. I think its also the artist's duty to inform the engineer..

Communication....

[xjepoyx]

Our engineer told me to try a few different sounds... I think thats nice enough. ..to quote him "Me igaganda pa yan..." especially during the takes...

We also tried some weird techniques like different mic positions and "prepared guitar" stuff.

 We asked and he just commented on the sound and we told him what sound we were going for... The engineer must sort of understand the goal sound.. I think its also the artist's duty to inform the engineer..

Communication....

right on...! Communication.... ... natumbok mo!






btw on my 1st post sa topic na to... di pala tone yung tinutukoy kong client... its the music itself pala. i got so irritated with the song so i let my friends engineer the client. Kasi ba naman ang lyrics ng kanta eh My Gym instructor... akoy dead na dead sayo.... My Gym instructor... puso koy litong lito.... putsa! badaf pala!!!! at deads na deads sya sa gym instructor nya! waaaaaaaaaaaa..

Well yeah I get your point, but seriously, doesn't that kill your ears? 

Or granting that the client is happy with his tone, isn't it sad when you listen to his reference CDs and hear the night and day difference of the tones of the client and the reference?

anyway back to the topic...kalokohang sabihan mo ang client mo na his tone sucks! magisip isip ka muna doj kung gs2 mo talaga negosyo mo... AFAIK wala kang pakialam sa tunog nya kasi kliyente sya. Ikaw ang kumikita para irecord sya... wala ka namang perang nilalabas para irecord sya/sila... advantage nga sayo yun kasi kumikita ka eh... kung ayaw mo tunog ng client mo...itapon mo sa studio namin.... we'll make him feel welcome at di pa namin lalaiitin ang tone nya promise!

[KitC]

Whoa! Last time I checked, we're all friends here.

IMO, we may not like a client's tone, or even his song. That's the time we should go into right brain mode and try to be analytical in capturing his sound in the best possible way we can. It's not for us to judge the merits of his song, the sound, or even the content. If anything, we should make him sound good. I agree with bloodshed's post about communication... that's how an engineer should guide a client to better sound, not dictate it.

[abyssinianson]

it's a little silly to equate gaffing to intubating a patient or performing cpr. 

hahaha...now that you mentioned it, it is a bit odd. I don't think people pull hairs out studying to make coffee and running errands as much as they do for the USMLE..lol

[xjepoyx]

ay sensya na...

nadala kasi ako sa pasaway kong tauhan sa negosyo ko e. hehehhe.

anyway... maybe wrong choice of words to post.... pero i really think communication between client and engineer talaga is the best and a lil courtesy with the artist. thats his tone... kumbaga... we're here to let their sound captured/outputed on recorded not to dictate them to change it...

[skunkyfunk]

Our engineer told me to try a few different sounds... I think thats nice enough. ..to quote him "Me igaganda pa yan..." especially during the takes...

We also tried some weird techniques like different mic positions and "prepared guitar" stuff.

 We asked and he just commented on the sound and we told him what sound we were going for... The engineer must sort of understand the goal sound.. I think its also the artist's duty to inform the engineer..

Communication....

right on...! Communication.... ... natumbok mo!






btw on my 1st post sa topic na to... di pala tone yung tinutukoy kong client... its the music itself pala. i got so irritated with the song so i let my friends engineer the client. Kasi ba naman ang lyrics ng kanta eh My Gym instructor... akoy dead na dead sayo.... My Gym instructor... puso koy litong lito.... putsa! badaf pala!!!! at deads na deads sya sa gym instructor nya! waaaaaaaaaaaa..

Well yeah I get your point, but seriously, doesn't that kill your ears? 

Or granting that the client is happy with his tone, isn't it sad when you listen to his reference CDs and hear the night and day difference of the tones of the client and the reference?

anyway back to the topic...kalokohang sabihan mo ang client mo na his tone sucks! magisip isip ka muna doj kung gs2 mo talaga negosyo mo... AFAIK wala kang pakialam sa tunog nya kasi kliyente sya. Ikaw ang kumikita para irecord sya... wala ka namang perang nilalabas para irecord sya/sila... advantage nga sayo yun kasi kumikita ka eh... kung ayaw mo tunog ng client mo...itapon mo sa studio namin.... we'll make him feel welcome at di pa namin lalaiitin ang tone nya promise!

Dude, if you read the thread title, that is actually what it's all about - choosing the right words so you won't sound like nanlalait ka.  And that is why I built a PROJECT studio that prioritizes productions of mine, where I get a fair share of criticisms and executive decisions.  And please lang, don't equate "being welcome" to being passive about mediocrity because that is what sound engineering is all about - how to make something good sound better.  In the first place, when people approach me to record, they know my biases, and in fact it is my biases that made them come to me.  And I am not concerned about the numbers - I am more focused on bringing the best out of the artist, yun bang pakiramdam niya "parang hindi ko akalain mas may ikagaganda pa pala ang kanta namin..."  Lastly, if an artist sounds like turd, no way to polish that...

So you see the problem now?  I am PERFECTLY OK with having a cool atmosphere where everyone feels good about himself so that he is motivated to make a good recording.  But as to a decent lawyer to a criminal seeking his legal advice, don't promise him acquittal if there is hard evidence against him tantamount to guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

This is what makes our recordings (a lot of them) fall short to other country's standards... it's all about staying in our comfort zone whereas when you think of recording, you should always bear in mind that there are means that the client has NEVER ever tried or read about to get the tone he wants.  And sadly, to some extent, you have to spend more than what you project.  Say, rent a Bruno amp at Exile?  Or maybe rent out one of their DW kits.  I would be more than willing to advice the artist's executive producer to rent out stuff that would work best for the project.  But as a check, make the artist do what he wants, and A/B.

[skunkyfunk]

it's a little silly to equate gaffing to intubating a patient or performing cpr. 

hahaha...now that you mentioned it, it is a bit odd. I don't think people pull hairs out studying to make coffee and running errands as much as they do for the USMLE..lol

Here's a nice article:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3681

[vaisteen2003]

i have not read all the replies to this topic but based on the title, coming from my corporate experience, there is this thing we call POSTIVE SCRIPTING, wherein you emphasize on the good points be it as small as "your guitar has really good intonation and has really good sustain" now wont we want to capture that and put that into tape?? and then after givng the GOOD POINTS, thats the time we site the COACHING POINTS, may we want to start with the simplest of thing to the most complex, and make it a point to use the word WE. Client and engineer should work as a team, and since most of the people here are engineers, lets leave the ARTISTIC EXPRESSION to the artist and the SOUND CAPTURE to the engineer.

just my 2 cents

[mikep]

Yes, I agree, communication is the key, but I would add attention to detail.  From the onset, the engineer must ask the client what his objectives are, what he wants to achieve, what tones he's got in his head, if he has some CD's that he can let him listen to for reference purposes, etc.  That way, the engineer can "engineer" the ideas and concepts into workable reality.  But normally, when artists book a studio, they have certain "sounds" in their heads and they are in control.  In that situation, the engineer just does what the client wants and should only "suggest" that the tone sucks or the arrangement of the song for that matter, if his opinion is sought.  Then, he does what he, the engineer, thinks should be done to improve the sound while at the same time, asking the client what he thinks of what he is doing.  Remember, the client should still be in control of the entire production   In the case of an established client, the engineer must make his own research on how the client makes his records, how his tones sound, etc.  That way, the engineer is prepared; there are no surprises and everyone just lives happily ever after.

FWIW

[KitC]

But as to a decent lawyer to a criminal seeking his legal advice, don't promise him acquittal if there is hard evidence against him tantamount to guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Hmmmm.... I sense Letour coming into this thread if he sees it.

One of the best descriptions I heard about lawyers came from a lawyer herself. If anything, they are advocates, regardless of the evidence presented against their client. By the same vein, recording engineers are also advocates of whoever records in their studio and it's up to you to make them sound good. OTOH, it's also up to you if you want to accept a client's project especially if it's not up your area of expertise. For example, you record mostly rock and alternative then a hiphop artist comes over, would you record him? (Which got me thinking... if it were P. Diddy who came over and said he wanted to record in my studio, I'd go 'damn the torpedoes' and "hell yeah!") 

[mikep]

If anything, they are advocates, regardless of the evidence presented against their client. By the same vein, recording engineers are also advocates of whoever records in their studio and it's up to you to make them sound good. OTOH, it's also up to you if you want to accept a client's project especially if it's not up your area of expertise. For example, you record mostly rock and alternative then a hiphop artist comes over, would you record him?

Well said.  Nice analogy.

[bloodshedd]

Yes, I agree, communication is the key, but I would add attention to detail.  From the onset, the engineer must ask the client what his objectives are, what he wants to achieve, what tones he's got in his head, if he has some CD's that he can let him listen to for reference purposes, etc.  That way, the engineer can "engineer" the ideas and concepts into workable reality.  But normally, when artists book a studio, they have certain "sounds" in their heads and they are in control.  In that situation, the engineer just does what the client wants and should only "suggest" that the tone sucks or the arrangement of the song for that matter, if his opinion is sought.  Then, he does what he, the engineer, thinks should be done to improve the sound while at the same time, asking the client what he thinks of what he is doing.  Remember, the client should still be in control of the entire production   In the case of an established client, the engineer must make his own research on how the client makes his records, how his tones sound, etc.  That way, the engineer is prepared; there are no surprises and everyone just lives happily ever after.

FWIW

mas maganda yung pagkakalagay ni sir Mike sa ibig kong sabihin...

[IncX]

i cant believe you guys have clients who prefer zoom patches.

but thats because i dont have much recording experience... ironic, since i dont need to tell me that zoom patches dont nail it (live or in the studio) ... but realistically speaking, there are far more inportant things than sounding good onstage... so i understand why ppl learn to love zoom - simply because they have no choice.

OT lang:

are the line 6 spider amp distortions good?

[skunkyfunk]

are the line 6 spider amp distortions good?

For ME, no.  But if you have no other choice, use them as a preamp through a tube power amp.  Don't turn on the speaker cab emulation.

[abyssinianson]

i am a fan of the Line 6 Vetta amps for stuff in the studio. It has a really gritty quality on some patches that works well with industrial style music.

[bloodshedd]

    For our bands recording... we only used gain from the amps, sometimes augmented by either sansamp, mxr micro amp or a TS-9.

   I tend to rely on a ZOOM G2 for live performances since analog multi-fx switching is a pain during live performances (our music requires very fast tone alterations) and I dont have a big amp and I'm not willing to bring one (unless its a MESA) due to transport constraints.

  One thing I do so I wont spoil the amp sims is to bypass the service amp's preamp section and use the fx return as the input..

[abyssinianson]

   I tend to rely on a ZOOM G2 for live performances since analog multi-fx switching is a pain during live performances (our music requires very fast tone alterations) and I dont have a big amp and I'm not willing to bring one (unless its a MESA) due to transport constraints.

I can vouch for the Mesa weight. The Mesa amps and cabs are NOT lightweight. For a while, I was using my Mesa 4x12 in gigs and I just plain flat out gave up lugging the darn thing around because it was breaking my back..lol. Marshall cabs are not my favorite cabs because they are too trebly but they are the lightest cabs around that you can tweak pretty well to get your tone. I use what works.

[IncX]

are the line 6 spider amp distortions good?

For ME, no.  But if you have no other choice, use them as a preamp through a tube power amp.  Don't turn on the speaker cab emulation.

how about that line 6 pod modeller thing?

i recorded my stuff thru a modeller in a pc program... must have been a pod line 6... and i went thru 20 settings and i wasnt happy with any of them... i thought they sounded generic.

[KitC]

how about that line 6 pod modeller thing?

i recorded my stuff thru a modeller in a pc program... must have been a pod line 6... and i went thru 20 settings and i wasnt happy with any of them... i thought they sounded generic.

Presets should be considered as a jumping off point for you to make your own patches. In most cases, they can give you close approximations of the real thing which you can tweak until it gives you the sound you want. The trick is to stop thinking in terms of duplicating the sound of a known amp/cab, but to give these simulations their own sound and character.

[BAMF]

Whew ! Si Hazel ba nagsabi nun ? Hehehe jok lang maám. I just remembered the look on your face when I first took out my Zoom to use.

strangely skunk, you'd find some people are hopelessly attached to their zooms.  sometimes i personally don't like the sound captured on hard disk, but a single glance at the client's smiling face tells me that i was able to capture HIS sound.  no matter my opinion of how much better it could come off using so and so tools, as far as he is concerned, that particular sound on the record is the BEST sound in the world... because it's HIS.  we have to learn to respect that as often as possible, give the client enough credit.  anyhow, i use amps 95% of the time so their signal still goes through those tubes one way or the other. lol.

[starfugger]

Hahaha!  that's because zoom makes me nervous BAMF!  honestly, that little bugger makes my life a wee bit  harder.     i was glad, though, that you had a slew of other fab analog thingamagigs to replace it. 

we learn recently i had this client who was very much into his zoom.  can't pry it out of his hands so ... well, the customer is always right diba? having my back against the wall, i learned to compromise, milk the setup of every possible good tone there was in it ... he was happy

[abyssinianson]

Zoom must be big back home. Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone using Zoom pedals around here - maybe a Line 6 POD XT as a preamp or something like it but never a Zoom. Even the people that use a solid state head tend to rely on a distortion pedal + parametric EQ combo to sculpt their sound.

[KitC]

It's a matter of economics, really. The Zoom is much more affordable than a Pod. If Line6 were priced within reach then a lot more would be using it but the importers that be are not relenting in selling their precious imports at list, even after having the items on the shelves after 10 years! 

[skunkyfunk]

Zoom must be big back home. Come to think of it, I have never seen anyone using Zoom pedals around here - maybe a Line 6 POD XT as a preamp or something like it but never a Zoom. Even the people that use a solid state head tend to rely on a distortion pedal + parametric EQ combo to sculpt their sound.

No love for Zoom's there?  That's a big surprise.  Zoom seems to be raking too much money here.