Best way to tell a client "Your tone sucks..."

[skunkyfunk]

They say, studio engineering is 50% skill, 50% psychology.

So how do you tell a client if his tone sounds gawdawful and in turn is potentially a ruiner of your resume as an engineer?

[inigo]

Compare to an existing record. Like, "you sure you wanna sound like PNE?"

[BALDO]

tell him.." can you try this sound instead"?  or an artist that plays that kind of genre or offer other substitute for that sound like a different guitar or tweak the knobs while he play and audition it to him. just hope that his ego doesn't get hurt. i guess you have to psyche him first before doing the suggestions and the tweaking.  .. you don't want to ruin the flow of the recording process and besides its your business anyway.

[xjepoyx]

ive had clients before na sobrang.... haaaaaaaaaaaaayy



what i did was sleep and let my friends do the engineering instead hehehe

[abyssinianson]

in the past, i've always treated engineering like I do patients at a clinic or a hospital. in order to know WHY they are feeling or doing something the way they do, I have to KNOW what got them to that conclusion and how their mind is working. I don't psych them out. I don't try and hide what I do; I just try and establish a common ground so I - and he - can get a good job done with the best possible method available. Treating something a resume killer is perhaps not the way to view a client because, really, you could turn them away if you were so concerned about having ALL of your resulting work sound a certain way. The job of the producer and engineer is to prep and present a client's sound and stay true to what THEY intended the music to sound from their head onto disk, not the other way around. Otherwise, you had be better at playing all the instruments on a record because that might be the best way to assert your control over the favorable outcome of a record's sound. So, I would suggest a more intuitive approach that doesn't just get you to do a job but also present EVERY opportunity for the artist to get a particular sound across. You could start with asking what artists they like, records they always listen to and tones they admire. Start from there and ask them if you could have them try different tones that is more representative of the sound that they would really like because, maybe, they like particular sounds but can't replicate them because of gear limitations. As such, it is your job to open doors of opportunity and get them from tone point A to Point B; THIS is your job and your skill as a producer and engineer is what is at stake, not the potential result of a sound that you don't like. Afterall, you are recording THEIR music, not yours. DO your job but do it well with finesse and an open mind.

I spend quite a bit of time hanging out with band members before I even do a session. This helps me establish a good ground for communication and a creative environment that works well for everyone involved.

[BALDO]

Abbys
the reason why i said to " psyche them out" is because people especially musicians are very sensitive in nature and add to that being " FILIPINO". we all know kung gaano ka balat sibuyas ang mga pinoy. Masabihan mo lang na hindi ok ang tunog mo.. mapipikon kaagad. what more if the artist is SIKAT do you think what you say will matter? Or if they say marunong ka pa ITONG SOUND na ito ang gusto ko eh saka nagbabayad ako.. So what do you do then??? So i think assesing them first if they are flexible is the key before you say or do something to their tone..

[inigo]

Isa pang palusot yung, "your tone may sound OK live, but on record it can sound quite differently... observe..." then go on and demonstrate. This way, you're not saying that his tone sucks, you're just saying that it may sound different.

Mga gitarista talaga o.

[BALDO]

Isa pang palusot yung, "your tone may sound OK live, but on record it can sound quite differently... observe..." then go on and demonstrate. This way, you're not saying that his tone sucks, you're just saying that it may sound different.

Mga gitarista talaga o.

YUP i think this one works!!!

[starfugger]

sometimes it's also a matter of conditioning. some guys want to stick to that certain sound they've gotten used to over the years.  best thing is to use the best amplifier available  and try to get the best version of HIS tone.  then mix that with your own suggestions, explain that in recording we usually dont capture just one tone, but rather a combination of several sounds...

[abyssinianson]

Abbys
the reason why i said to " psyche them out" is because people especially musicians are very sensitive in nature and add to that being " FILIPINO". we all know kung gaano ka balat sibuyas ang mga pinoy. Masabihan mo lang na hindi ok ang tunog mo.. mapipikon kaagad. what more if the artist is SIKAT do you think what you say will matter? Or if they say marunong ka pa ITONG SOUND na ito ang gusto ko eh saka nagbabayad ako.. So what do you do then??? So i think assesing them first if they are flexible is the key before you say or do something to their tone..

yeah, delikado yan pards pero i think criticism can be done tastefully. maybe you wanted to say "reverse psychology?" this is basically putting yourself in their place and i think this can be done too as long as you have the best intentions. Personally, I think people have to think outside of being "Filipino" because the rest of the world can look adversely on that as being stubborn and closeminded, which it is. In fact, I don't think I've encountered as much pikon results of criticism as the Philippines which is weird in a way. People in the US - Pinoys - harbor this trait too which is weird and a source of drama between the adults who partake in Pinoy clubs and stuff. I steer clear of it because i simply don't have the time or desire to play some type of Nora Aunor drama character in my own home-made movies:) But seriously, in the professional setting in the US, you really can't do that Pikon sh*t because people will ask,"What the hell is wrong with him? Go tell him to chill and come back when he has his head out of his @ss." Sensitivity has its place in life but professionalism is something that should be put above everything else when you work and taking things personally by being pikon is ultimately a waste of their time, my efforts and their money.

[inigo]

sometimes it's also a matter of conditioning. some guys want to stick to that certain sound they've gotten used to over the years.  best thing is to use the best amplifier available  and try to get the best version of HIS tone.  then mix that with your own suggestions, explain that in recording we usually dont capture just one tone, but rather a combination of several sounds...

I think more often than not, this type of guitarist, the stupid zergs that they are (haha) stick not to the sound that they're used to, but to the actual physical combination of the effects they're used to, i.e. that A is placed before B, and B before C, etc. without really thinking about how everything sounds like.

Break this barrier and you'll have these retards by the neck.

[IncX]

unless they pay you as their producer or recording engineer, why would you help them with their tone?

if they do, then they SHOULD understand that you are supposed to help them with their tone. before you start the session, start with "ey bro, just in case, OK lang ba na mag comment ako sa mga tones nyo sa guitar or sa bass? cause part yan ng job ko, and im saying that in advance kasi baka may chance na ma offend kayo. ok lang yun noh? pwede nyo din naman i veto yung suggestion ko if di talaga kayo agree sa suggestion ko"

i think that sets the ground rules from the start. although ang conio ng aking dialogue sa taas... hehehe...

i would love to work with an engineer who can make me sound better than i think i do... i find it hard to believe that some ppl dont like it.

[starfugger]

sometimes it's also a matter of conditioning. some guys want to stick to that certain sound they've gotten used to over the years.  best thing is to use the best amplifier available  and try to get the best version of HIS tone.  then mix that with your own suggestions, explain that in recording we usually dont capture just one tone, but rather a combination of several sounds...

I think more often than not, this type of guitarist, the stupid zergs that they are (haha) stick not to the sound that they're used to, but to the actual physical combination of the effects they're used to, i.e. that A is placed before B, and B before C, etc. without really thinking about how everything sounds like.

Break this barrier and you'll have these retards by the neck.

inigo, you are right when you say that they stick to the effects they've been used to (memories of zoom come to mind)  but i wouldn't be too quick to call them stupid, after all some of them ACTUALLY do know what they're doing.  i might chalk it up to ME not being able to appreciate their sound, having been used to a certain sound myself.  in cases like these, i make sure i am capturing their VERY particular tone the best way possible.

[bugoy]

the best way is iparinig mo sa kanya mismo yung tunog niya, kung di niya narealize na pangit tone niya, hindi siya totoong musikero and that's the time para sermunan mo siya hehehehe, kaso ang mahirap diyan sa scenario na yan eh yung "PWEDE NA YAN" attitude ng mga pinoy, kagaya ng isa kong kakilala ehehe kahit alam niya sablay/non-consistent yung tunog niya or hindi tumatama sa metronome yung recording niya eh palagi banat pag pinuna "PWEDE NA YAN, DEMO LANG NAMAN EH"  para san pa't nag multi track PC recording pa siya ehehehe

[mikep]

The general rule we do here at TRACKStudios is never to comment on a client's work, tone, etc. unless our opinion is sought.  Otherwise, we let him have whatever he wants.  He is the producer, artist or whatever and if he ruins his product, that is his own look out.  For us, we just follow what he wants.  Will it soil our reputation?  So far, from the onset, that rule is what is followed.

[skunkyfunk]

The general rule we do here at TRACKStudios is never to comment on a client's work, tone, etc. unless our opinion is sought.  Otherwise, we let him have whatever he wants.  He is the producer, artist or whatever and if he ruins his product, that is his own look out.  For us, we just follow what he wants.  Will it soil our reputation?  So far, from the onset, that rule is what is followed.

If I am not mistaken, in the big studios in the US and Europe, when you engineer for a production, YOU CANNOT TALK TO THE ARTIST UNLESS THE PRODUCER TELLS YOU TO.  I have heard some stories of studio engineering grads who ended up being gaffers - people who would brew coffee and serve the producers and artists some food and refreshments.  And by the way, gaffers CANNOT enter the control room.  Haha.  Just like internship in the hospital when doctors let you do the dirty work.

[skunkyfunk]

sometimes it's also a matter of conditioning. some guys want to stick to that certain sound they've gotten used to over the years.  best thing is to use the best amplifier available  and try to get the best version of HIS tone.  then mix that with your own suggestions, explain that in recording we usually dont capture just one tone, but rather a combination of several sounds...

I think more often than not, this type of guitarist, the stupid zergs that they are (haha) stick not to the sound that they're used to, but to the actual physical combination of the effects they're used to, i.e. that A is placed before B, and B before C, etc. without really thinking about how everything sounds like.

Break this barrier and you'll have these retards by the neck.

inigo, you are right when you say that they stick to the effects they've been used to (memories of zoom come to mind)  but i wouldn't be too quick to call them stupid, after all some of them ACTUALLY do know what they're doing.  i might chalk it up to ME not being able to appreciate their sound, having been used to a certain sound myself.  in cases like these, i make sure i am capturing their VERY particular tone the best way possible.

Actually it's not that they know... it's that they have no other choice but do what they are accustomed to.  Put it this way... someone brings out a Zoom G2, and uses a Mesa Boogie distortion patch.  And then you have your Mesa F-50 and footswitch waving "use me" to the guitar player, and maybe a little OD boost in front might help.  Unfortunately, Mr. retard guitarplayer doesn't know that the tone he's after is much more obtainable through plugging direct to your amp.

[starfugger]

strangely skunk, you'd find some people are hopelessly attached to their zooms.  sometimes i personally don't like the sound captured on hard disk, but a single glance at the client's smiling face tells me that i was able to capture HIS sound.  no matter my opinion of how much better it could come off using so and so tools, as far as he is concerned, that particular sound on the record is the BEST sound in the world... because it's HIS.  we have to learn to respect that as often as possible, give the client enough credit.  anyhow, i use amps 95% of the time so their signal still goes through those tubes one way or the other. lol.

[skunkyfunk]

strangely skunk, you'd find some people are hopelessly attached to their zooms.  sometimes i personally don't like the sound captured on hard disk, but a single glance at the client's smiling face tells me that i was able to capture HIS sound.  no matter my opinion of how much better it could come off using so and so tools, as far as he is concerned, that particular sound on the record is the BEST sound in the world... because it's HIS.  we have to learn to respect that as often as possible, give the client enough credit.  anyhow, i use amps 95% of the time so their signal still goes through those tubes one way or the other. lol.

Well yeah I get your point, but seriously, doesn't that kill your ears? 

Or granting that the client is happy with his tone, isn't it sad when you listen to his reference CDs and hear the night and day difference of the tones of the client and the reference?

[abyssinianson]

The general rule we do here at TRACKStudios is never to comment on a client's work, tone, etc. unless our opinion is sought.  Otherwise, we let him have whatever he wants.  He is the producer, artist or whatever and if he ruins his product, that is his own look out.  For us, we just follow what he wants.  Will it soil our reputation?  So far, from the onset, that rule is what is followed.

If I am not mistaken, in the big studios in the US and Europe, when you engineer for a production, YOU CANNOT TALK TO THE ARTIST UNLESS THE PRODUCER TELLS YOU TO.  I have heard some stories of studio engineering grads who ended up being gaffers - people who would brew coffee and serve the producers and artists some food and refreshments.  And by the way, gaffers CANNOT enter the control room.  Haha.  Just like internship in the hospital when doctors let you do the dirty work.

Maybe if you work for Rick Rubin who is a bit eccentric or Steve Albini who is known for being a bit grumpy sometimes. I've worked with Steve and he is pretty cool. Straightforward and knowledgeable, Albini knows his stuff so he calls a lot of the shots prior to even sitting down on the desk to get the workflow situated. Most places do not allow people who aren't part of the studio staff to be on premises, mainly for security reasons and it isn't really as stringent as you might think except studios in the US are just like other places of work, you are there to do work and if people are getting stuff done, you wouldn't want to be poking around unless you are supposed to be there in the first place. Engineering grads get pretty good jobs depending on who they interned with and what projects they did while in school. Full Sail and Berklee all have extensive contacts that allow certificate and full time students to work with contacts in industry so it really depends on what you have to offer to find work after you graduate. Coffee making? Maybe interns do some of that stuff but there isn't any slave labor going on from what I know..lol. Interns do a lot of footwork acting as go-betweens from the studio to the publishing house or the label if the place is located in the same city. Otherwise, interns are there to learn and a lot of hell will be raised if you are paying a ton of money to do recording/ engineering school and all you end up doing is making coffee. Unlike the Phils, even interns can complain to student affairs and voice their concerns because they aren't learning anything.

Interns in the hospital ARE doctors and do everything that a full PGY physician would be doing in a hospital setting. This applies to residents and fellowship members of a hospital. The dirty work that you do in the hospital setting is your training and what you do and how much you learn will determine the number of people you kill because you didn't do enough hands-on training. I would know.

[starfugger]

strangely skunk, you'd find some people are hopelessly attached to their zooms.  sometimes i personally don't like the sound captured on hard disk, but a single glance at the client's smiling face tells me that i was able to capture HIS sound.  no matter my opinion of how much better it could come off using so and so tools, as far as he is concerned, that particular sound on the record is the BEST sound in the world... because it's HIS.  we have to learn to respect that as often as possible, give the client enough credit.  anyhow, i use amps 95% of the time so their signal still goes through those tubes one way or the other. lol.

Well yeah I get your point, but seriously, doesn't that kill your ears? 

Or granting that the client is happy with his tone, isn't it sad when you listen to his reference CDs and hear the night and day difference of the tones of the client and the reference?

haha.  the customer is always right.  of course, like you, i can get obsessive about these things.  ive recently encountered a client who was truly truly stuck with his tone.  i didn't like it, personally.  he had no CD references.  his reference was HIS live sound.  we tried recording him several ways, and strangely he liked the dirtiest  of the lot.  while i was kinda scratching my head, he was all smiles.  and then somebody who didnt belong to the band comments "it's dirty... i like it".  LOL.  i guess it taught me to prioritize the client's happiness over mine.

[skunkyfunk]

ive had clients before na sobrang.... haaaaaaaaaaaaayy



what i did was sleep and let my friends do the engineering instead hehehe

Hindi ka ba sinabihan na nakakaasar yun?      At least may karelyebo...

Kasi may kilala akong studio engineer na humataw sa studio kahit ata 2 hours of sleep ginto sa kanya dahil matindi pangangailangan at the time.  Pag take na, sasabihin sa artist, "Take na?"  <pindot record>" Sabay tulog sa desk.  Pag tapos na ang take... ginigising ng isang kabanda yung engineer... "Uy tapos na ang take." 

[inigo]

so... the conclusion is there's no risk on your reputation as an engineer if you think your client's tone sucks, as long as your client's happy?

[starfugger]

The general rule we do here at TRACKStudios is never to comment on a client's work, tone, etc. unless our opinion is sought.  Otherwise, we let him have whatever he wants.  He is the producer, artist or whatever and if he ruins his product, that is his own look out.  For us, we just follow what he wants.  Will it soil our reputation?  So far, from the onset, that rule is what is followed.

If I am not mistaken, in the big studios in the US and Europe, when you engineer for a production, YOU CANNOT TALK TO THE ARTIST UNLESS THE PRODUCER TELLS YOU TO.  I have heard some stories of studio engineering grads who ended up being gaffers - people who would brew coffee and serve the producers and artists some food and refreshments.  And by the way, gaffers CANNOT enter the control room.  Haha.  Just like internship in the hospital when doctors let you do the dirty work.

Maybe if you work for Rick Rubin who is a bit eccentric or Steve Albini who is known for being a bit grumpy sometimes. I've worked with Steve and he is pretty cool. Straightforward and knowledgeable, Albini knows his stuff so he calls a lot of the shots prior to even sitting down on the desk to get the workflow situated. Most places do not allow people who aren't part of the studio staff to be on premises, mainly for security reasons and it isn't really as stringent as you might think except studios in the US are just like other places of work, you are there to do work and if people are getting stuff done, you wouldn't want to be poking around unless you are supposed to be there in the first place. Engineering grads get pretty good jobs depending on who they interned with and what projects they did while in school. Full Sail and Berklee all have extensive contacts that allow certificate and full time students to work with contacts in industry so it really depends on what you have to offer to find work after you graduate. Coffee making? Maybe interns do some of that stuff but there isn't any slave labor going on from what I know..lol. Interns do a lot of footwork acting as go-betweens from the studio to the publishing house or the label if the place is located in the same city. Otherwise, interns are there to learn and a lot of hell will be raised if you are paying a ton of money to do recording/ engineering school and all you end up doing is making coffee. Unlike the Phils, even interns can complain to student affairs and voice their concerns because they aren't learning anything.

Interns in the hospital ARE doctors and do everything that a full PGY physician would be doing in a hospital setting. This applies to residents and fellowship members of a hospital. The dirty work that you do in the hospital setting is your training and what you do and how much you learn will determine the number of people you kill because you didn't do enough hands-on training. I would know.

it was a bit OT so i didn't mention but since you brought it up, yes interns DO the exact same procedures that general practitioners perform, especially in pgh.  i would even think pgh interns have a little more experience than fresh graduates in other local schools, because the place is 100 times more toxic than private hospitals.  plus they get to handle all sorts of diseases there, from the common cold to leprosy to whatchamacallit.  it's a little silly to equate gaffing to intubating a patient or performing cpr.  

[starfugger]

so... the conclusion is there's no risk on your reputation as an engineer if you think your client's tone sucks, as long as your client's happy?

inigo, everyone makes mistakes so expect everyone to sound godawful at some point.  no ruined reputation there. some of my mixes suck, some don't.  that's the way it is with MOST engineers out there.  the trick is to improve the ratio of bad mixes versus good ones. 

whatever their tone is, it still has to go thru my amps, my mics, my A/D converters, my processors, etc.  i still have fairly reasonable control over that particular sound.  hence expect me to improve on it the best way possible, like i mentioned earlier.  we, as engineers can only go so far when it comes to changing the basics.  there are lots of clueless guys out there admittedly, most of which will be more than willing to take suggestions.  however there are some guys who seem to be very particular about their tastes.  in cases such as these, i suggest you use your best amps and REALLY sweat the micing until you find the best VERSION of that tone.